Initiative and "Hold Action"

[jburkett]

Hello, an interesting question came up in last nights session during combat and I would like to know how you might handle this in your own game. This was a vehicle combat situation but I imagine could happen anytime there is a "stand off" situation between potential combatants. The player group (in an armored Mountaineer ATV) noticed three bogies on the targeting computer and radar approaching quickly then slowing to match the ATV's speed at a distance of 800ft. This made the player group suspicious but, at this point, it wasn't clear if the approaching bogies were hostile or not. Because, the player group had been monitoring the sensor systems (radar/targeting computer) and rolled a successful Sensory Equipment skill I didn't allow the approaching bogies (at this point identified as two hover cycles and a motorcycle) to have a sneak attack. I had everyone roll initiative which I was unsure about because this pretty much gives away that this is, in fact, going to be a combat situation (perhaps not?). One of the bogies was first to act (rolling an 18 for initiative) and launched mini missiles at the ATV. Combat began. Okay, here is my question: If one of the player characters had won initiative and, not yet knowing the intention of the bogies, could they have elected to "Hold Action" and how would this effect the initiative order? I hope this makes sense. For instance, if Player One wins initiative and chooses to wait to see what the bogies will do before acting, does Player One forfeit his first action/attack and have to wait until everyone else in the initiative roster takes their first action? I feel like this would unduly penalize Player 1. I don't recall reading any rule about this in RUE but I feel like perhaps it might be best to let Player 1 elect to take his first action/attack right after the first bogie acts. And, if this is the case, is that Player 1's new spot in the initiative order or could they go back to the top of the order when the last Player or NPC in the initiative roster acts? Again, I hope this makes sense and I welcome all your feedback. Thanks!

[ShadowLogan]

AFAIK there is NO "hold action" in Palladium system. So you either take your action when it comes up or it gets used doing nothing.

As a defensive response you have several options that can allow you to move out of order presuming you have actions available and only impact that "round" of actions, not subsequent "rounds":
-Dodge (uses an attack, allowing you to "go out of order")
-Roll/Parry/Auto-Dodge (doesn't use an attack)
-Entangle (not applicable in the scenario, but IIRC it uses an attack)
-Simultaneous Attack (allows one to attack out of order, but both parties lose the option of parry/dodge)
-just take the hit (doesn't use an attack)

[Vincent Takeda]

The general rule for me is you never start combat simply by rolling for initiative. Someone has to take a combat action first, which they get simply from deciding to be the first to take a combat action. Then the initiative rolls happen once that attack is over with. In this case the question is simply 'do we think a mysterious craft showing up on our 6 on radar de facto constitutes a combat maneuver in itself?' if so... then rolling initiative is appropriate... if the enemy chooses to fire, they get first shot, then initiative rolls happen, if the enemy chooses not to shoot and the party decides to feel the situation out... No inititive rolls yet. If the opponent showed up on radar and got a missile target lock on them, their radar would have started screaming at them immediately and in this case, I interpret that as the enemy having 'taken the initiative' and rolls are appropriate at that point. If its just guns instead of a missile lock? No target lock warning. No initiative rolls until someone on either side starts taking specific combat actions.

Once someone chooses to fire or chooses to go for a missile lock, that person 'took initiative'... Let that first shot happen, then initiative rolls from there on out. If all anyone is doing is flyin... No initiative rolls until they try a 'reposition to the targets 6' or take shots themselves. If player chooses to take the opponents 6, then they have 'taken inititive', can attempt the maneuver, then initiative rolls begin.

Even in a wild west duel I wouldnt roll inititive first... I'd call it a simultaneous attack, see who hits, THEN roll initiative, lol. Players would hate that though... Best let em roll for initiative on quick draw gunslinger duels. Not that it should matter. One player wins initiative and shoots. Other player chooses not to dodge but to shoot as well. See if the first shot hits, then let the second shooter roll his unopposed attack roll since the one who won initiative is shooting not dodging... Maybe the initiative winner gets a nat 20 and shoots the pistol out of the other guys hand or somethin... so I guess initiative rolls first might be useful in this ONE case. Even then I'm not sure I would. Just let both attack rolls happen at the same time and see how it shakes out.

[jburkett]

The general rule for me is you never start combat simply by rolling for initiative. Someone has to take a combat action first, which they get simply from deciding to be the first to take a combat action. Then the initiative rolls happen once that attack is over with. In this case the question is simply 'do we think a mysterious craft showing up on our 6 on radar de facto constitutes a combat maneuver in itself?' if so... then rolling initiative is appropriate... if the enemy chooses to fire, they get first shot, then initiative rolls happen, if the enemy chooses not to shoot and the party decides to feel the situation out... No inititive rolls yet. If the opponent showed up on radar and got a missile target lock on them, their radar would have started screaming at them immediately and in this case, I interpret that as the enemy having 'taken the initiative' and rolls are appropriate at that point. If its just guns instead of a missile lock? No target lock warning. No initiative rolls until someone on either side starts taking specific combat actions.

Once someone chooses to fire or chooses to go for a missile lock, that person 'took initiative'... Let that first shot happen, then initiative rolls from there on out. If all anyone is doing is flyin... No initiative rolls until they try a 'reposition to the targets 6' or take shots themselves. If player chooses to take the opponents 6, then they have 'taken inititive', can attempt the maneuver, then initiative rolls begin.

Even in a wild west duel I wouldnt roll inititive first... I'd call it a simultaneous attack, see who hits, THEN roll initiative, lol. Players would hate that though... Best let em roll for initiative on quick draw gunslinger duels. Not that it should matter. One player wins initiative and shoots. Other player chooses not to dodge but to shoot as well. See if the first shot hits, then let the second shooter roll his unopposed attack roll since the one who won initiative is shooting not dodging... Maybe the initiative winner gets a nat 20 and shoots the pistol out of the other guys hand or somethin... so I guess initiative rolls first might be useful in this ONE case. Even then I'm not sure I would. Just let both attack rolls happen at the same time and see how it shakes out.

Okay, that is some good insight. Thanks. I can see where it would makes sense to let a group make the situation a combat situation by an initial action. In this case, I would still allow for a defensive action (dodge, parry, etc.) before the initiative roll. That is, if they were "on alert". Part of the challenge with this situation was that I wasn't quite clear how much information would be revealed by the targeting computer and radar. The missiles fired were mini-missiles and, my understanding, is that they wouldn't have a "lock" necessarily. They are "dumb" missiles. The description of both these sensory pieces of equipment (radar and targeting computer) could probably use some elaboration somewhere. Cheers!

[Vincent Takeda]

No trouble! I agree. No smart missiles means no radarlock warning, so a shot could have been fired before the players even got to roll initiative... With the group actively monitoring radar, the attack isnt a surprise/ambush attack so they still get to defend against it. Very cool. Hope the dogfight went well!

Favorite combat pilot callsigns:

Mumbles - the one you cant understand on the radio
Alphabet - pilots name was Varsonofy Krestovozdvizhensky
Chimbo - stands for 'chick in a mans body' for the well groomed 'hollywood' style pretty boy pilot with the high charisma and low mental affinity score
Drone - pilot is female, so the aircraft is 'unmanned'

These callsigns are all taken from actual pilots, most of them F16's I think.

[Warshield73]

No trouble! I agree. No smart missiles means no radarlock warning, so a shot could have been fired before the players even got to roll initiative... With the group actively monitoring radar, the attack isnt a surprise/ambush attack so they still get to defend against it. Very cool. Hope the dogfight went well!

I have always approached it this way.
If you use your vehicles targeting system (i.e. roll weapons system skill for the +1 in addition to vehicle bonuses) to fire a rail gun, laser, mini missiles anything you should get a threat warning. Only a completely passive optical scope should not.

At the very least both guided missiles and smart missiles should set it off as well as anything large enough to appear on your radar.

Favorite combat pilot callsigns:

Mumbles - the one you cant understand on the radio
Alphabet - pilots name was Varsonofy Krestovozdvizhensky
Chimbo - stands for 'chick in a mans body' for the well groomed 'hollywood' style pretty boy pilot with the high charisma and low mental affinity score
Drone - pilot is female, so the aircraft is 'unmanned'

These callsigns are all taken from actual pilots, most of them F16's I think.

I am so using Alphabet. In phase World I give Seljuk very long, often Slavic sounding names, I just found the callsign for the Seljuk pilot I have.

Also, I have a Russian Veritech Pilot as a pregen for convention games and his callsign just changed. Thank you

[Vincent Takeda]

Glad you like it!

[SpiritInterface]

As far as I remember in one of the first books, in RMB or in HUr it stated that a character could hold an action until the end of the count where they could either take the action or lose it.

I have gamed under GMs who have handled it two different ways. One would have us roll initiatives randomly just to keep us guessing. The other did the same thing as Vincent Takeda and not have us roll initiative until someone takes a combat action.

[Killer Cyborg]

As far as I remember in one of the first books, in RMB or in HUr it stated that a character could hold an action until the end of the count where they could either take the action or lose it.

I'm positive it didn't.
I never saw a rule like that until 3rd Edition D&D.

[Warshield73]

I use what I call Base 5 where I break the melee into 5 3-second rounds.

If a player wants to hold an attack in the round he has to declare what he wants to do. So he can say he is holding it to dodge an attack, use ECM to jam a weapons lock, or shoot someone if they break cover. If what he is holding for doesn't happen he looses the attack.

[SpiritInterface]

As far as I remember in one of the first books, in RMB or in HUr it stated that a character could hold an action until the end of the count where they could either take the action or lose it.

I'm positive it didn't.
I never saw a rule like that until 3rd Edition D&D.

It might have been N&S. To allow defensive combo actions.

[The Beast]

As far as I remember in one of the first books, in RMB or in HUr it stated that a character could hold an action until the end of the count where they could either take the action or lose it.

I'm positive it didn't.
I never saw a rule like that until 3rd Edition D&D.

It might have been N&S. To allow defensive combo actions.

Nope. Palladium never had a "hold" action defined as holding your turn so you could go later. Revised N&S does have "holds" but those are melee combat maneuvers for attempting to immobilize one's enemy.

[Vincent Takeda]

And if you took a martial art with 'combination parry/attack' you didnt need one as long as the incoming attack was a meelee attack directed at you... Everyone's attack was your attack!

[Zer0 Kay]

I break the melee into 15 segments each a second long
Attacks are divided within that and are fixed based on number of attacks.
I don't allow a regular dodge unless an action has been held or use the action they have in the same second they're being attacked
I don't allow simultanious attacks unless a person has an action durring the same second or they have a held action.
Held actions dont transfer to the next turn
If someone has more than 15 attacks they become pooled held actions allowing them to do rediculous stuff like attack on their second dodge an incoming attack while simultaneously attacking another all in the same second.

[Blackwater Sniper]

Break down the number of actions into seconds/round. So if you have five actions and a round is 15 seconds, each of your actions should take three seconds.

Then you can hold your action up until the end of the first three seconds of combat or you lose your first action.

Your first action may be to attack, take cover, or even give orders for everyone else.

[HWalsh]

I generally rule it like this:

Contrary to the above, I do not let players attack first by declaring first.

How my method works:

When someone declares the intention to make an attack action I call for initiative.

So, if player 1 says:
"I punch the (insert)!"

Me:
"You raise your Fist back and... Roll for initiative."

If someone rolls better than you? They just reacted to your impending attack before you could complete it.

[Axelmania]

GURPS has a "Wait" maneuver you could borrow from. It can transition into most stuff except for "Move" or "Move and Attack".

Even that falls short of ideal though because you can't split up portions of maneuvers like if you had 2 attacks or wanted to take half your steps / movement points before the trigger and the other half after

[HWalsh]

How I do it when people want to hold an action is to let them "bank it" for a defensive action like a dodge, entangle, etc.

[Mlp7029]

Hello, an interesting question came up in last nights session during combat and I would like to know how you might handle this in your own game. This was a vehicle combat situation but I imagine could happen anytime there is a "stand off" situation between potential combatants. The player group (in an armored Mountaineer ATV) noticed three bogies on the targeting computer and radar approaching quickly then slowing to match the ATV's speed at a distance of 800ft. This made the player group suspicious but, at this point, it wasn't clear if the approaching bogies were hostile or not. Because, the player group had been monitoring the sensor systems (radar/targeting computer) and rolled a successful Sensory Equipment skill I didn't allow the approaching bogies (at this point identified as two hover cycles and a motorcycle) to have a sneak attack. I had everyone roll initiative which I was unsure about because this pretty much gives away that this is, in fact, going to be a combat situation (perhaps not?). One of the bogies was first to act (rolling an 18 for initiative) and launched mini missiles at the ATV. Combat began. Okay, here is my question: If one of the player characters had won initiative and, not yet knowing the intention of the bogies, could they have elected to "Hold Action" and how would this effect the initiative order? I hope this makes sense. For instance, if Player One wins initiative and chooses to wait to see what the bogies will do before acting, does Player One forfeit his first action/attack and have to wait until everyone else in the initiative roster takes their first action? I feel like this would unduly penalize Player 1. I don't recall reading any rule about this in RUE but I feel like perhaps it might be best to let Player 1 elect to take his first action/attack right after the first bogie acts. And, if this is the case, is that Player 1's new spot in the initiative order or could they go back to the top of the order when the last Player or NPC in the initiative roster acts? Again, I hope this makes sense and I welcome all your feedback. Thanks!

Well at 800ft the target is well within visual range so a roll to visually identify the target might have been in order. Did the players say they were turning on their weapons and targeting the bogie? Activating any defensive weapons, preparing to shoot down enemy missiles? Radar or thermo will likely be unable to identify what type of craft the bogie is. Identifying what a radar return is requires additional information. Speed, size and most importantly for identifying what kind of signals is it radiating? Targeting radars are very different signal wise from weather or terrain radars. In our game if you paint a CS unit with targeting radar generally they fire on you immediately depending on the rules of engagement they are operating under. In the Rifts world there are so many potential enemies everywhere turning on your targeting systems usually would be interpreted as intent to attack.