Coalition taking control of Quebec

[SolCannibal]

Psi-scanner (from Psyscape) doesn't tell you anything about power level. SNARLS is from Japan.

I really want a CS-Japan alliance!

WHAT Japan? The place happens to be divided in a number of states in Rifts Earth, remember?

dreicunan, does Psyscape say anything on how does the scanner detect, differentiate or not the degree or type of psychic? How it would answer to minor or major psychics in relation to fully developed/trained "Psi RCC", if an individual Mystic, Cyber-knight, Operator or other OCCs where some degree psychic capacity is expected (or at least more frequent) would register or not, among other things.

[dreicunan]

Psi-scanner (from Psyscape) doesn't tell you anything about power level. SNARLS is from Japan.

I really want a CS-Japan alliance!

WHAT Japan? The place happens to be divided in a number of states in Rifts Earth, remember?

dreicunan, does Psyscape say anything on how does the scanner detect, differentiate or not the degree or type of psychic? How it would answer to minor or major psychics in relation to fully developed/trained "Psi RCC", if an individual Mystic, Cyber-knight, Operator or other OCCs where some degree psychic capacity is expected (or at least more frequent) would register or not, among other things.

All it indicates is presence of psychic power. It can ping on 20+ ISP, major psychic, or master psychic, but when it does you only know that it pinged, not the exact reason why.

[dreicunan]

The statement is that they are seldom given positions in the military and law enforcement.
There is no need to contradict the other statements and have psychics in the military.
A few psychics in the police force makes it true.

I think I have a point that it's very odd and suggestive phrasing, "seldom given positions with the military or law enforcement" implies sometimes given positions in both. Otherwise you'd say "never given positions with the military and seldom given chances in law enforcement"

You have a point, but weight of evidence suggests that the military never accepts them.

Also, there is no such thing as "absolute inclusion" as you define it.

Sure there is. The notable inclusion of humans in a human-only army is 100% and thus absolute inclusion, but this would not be assumed by saying humans were included.

"Absolute inclusion" means the inclusion is absolute. The absolute inclusion of humans not mean the absolute exlcusion of non-humans, and it doesn't tell us anything about how many humans are in the army at all. It just means all humans are welcome. It can also be used in some circles advocating for children with special needs to be placed in a regular ex classroom and to participate in all regular ed activities. If you can find any evidence of anyone using the phrase in a way that remotely supports your incorrect usage, let me know so that I can correct them as well.

The percentage breakdown of OCCs in the Quebec Military is quite clear, psychics are 0%, and it even says "none" in parenthesis after it.

I don't think you mentioned that earlier

That said... that is a present-day statistic, so "seldom" could mean none CURRENTLY but perhaps a year ago there were a couple, and maybe a couple might join next year. None !=Never.

Do you really think that the context supports this interpretation, or do you just enjoy trying to find the least tenable position that you can still claim is possible?

it implies that in Free Quebec people have the same view of marriage that most humans on earth have had for thousands of years. I can't even fathom how you make the leap to this telling us anything about adoption!

The leap is because they're complaining about "genes" merely from a marriage, which does not have to require either spouse have their own biological children.

The same view of marriage humans had thousands of years ago would be antiquated in a superscientific world which probably has MDC condoms, they would know that there's no risk of dirtying the human genome so long as psychic women don't get impregnated by non-psychic men and psychic men don't go around impregnating non-psychic women.

Other concerns about psychics rearing human children would be in spreading unhealthy memes of tolerating human psychics as equals or ignoring their dangers.

The majority of the human race to this day views marriage as naturally resulting in children if something doesn't/hasnct gone wrong with the ability of the husband or wife to have children. That it doesn't always result in children is well known, but the assumption is that people will unless they can't. Now, in some areas that has now changed, especially in "first world" nations. However, I can guarantee you that won't be the case in a post-apocalyptic society trying to reclaim the world for humanity (CS) or to at least keep their part of the world for pure humans (Free Quebec). You need humans to have a humanity for whom you can protect the territory.

[SolCannibal]

Psi-scanner (from Psyscape) doesn't tell you anything about power level. SNARLS is from Japan.

I really want a CS-Japan alliance!

WHAT Japan? The place happens to be divided in a number of states in Rifts Earth, remember?

dreicunan, does Psyscape say anything on how does the scanner detect, differentiate or not the degree or type of psychic? How it would answer to minor or major psychics in relation to fully developed/trained "Psi RCC", if an individual Mystic, Cyber-knight, Operator or other OCCs where some degree psychic capacity is expected (or at least more frequent) would register or not, among other things.

All it indicates is presence of psychic power. It can ping on 20+ ISP, major psychic, or master psychic, but when it does you only know that it pinged, not the exact reason why.

So it is limited but covers the one essential that is detecting a certain degree of capacity and should detect most of the example cases i gave above equally as psychic. That's good to know and useful, actually.

Do other groups in North America like Northern Gun, Manistique or local powers that deal with them have access to scanner technology? I'm guessing that Psyscape might be the book for me to go on the matter of psi-detecting or related technology in rifts earth or at least North America.

[dreicunan]

Psi-scanner (from Psyscape) doesn't tell you anything about power level. SNARLS is from Japan.

I really want a CS-Japan alliance!

WHAT Japan? The place happens to be divided in a number of states in Rifts Earth, remember?

dreicunan, does Psyscape say anything on how does the scanner detect, differentiate or not the degree or type of psychic? How it would answer to minor or major psychics in relation to fully developed/trained "Psi RCC", if an individual Mystic, Cyber-knight, Operator or other OCCs where some degree psychic capacity is expected (or at least more frequent) would register or not, among other things.

All it indicates is presence of psychic power. It can ping on 20+ ISP, major psychic, or master psychic, but when it does you only know that it pinged, not the exact reason why.

So it is limited but covers the one essential that is detecting a certain degree of capacity and should detect most of the example cases i gave above equally as psychic. That's good to know and useful, actually.

Do other groups in North America like Northern Gun, Manistique or local powers that deal with them have access to scanner technology? I'm guessing that Psyscape might be the book for me to go on the matter of psi-detecting or related technology in rifts earth or at least North America.

They all have it, yes. The CS, despite developing it, doesn't use it much. They rely on dog boys and psi-stalkers since the psi-scanner has a 50% success rate.

[SolCannibal]

dreicunan, does Psyscape say anything on how does the scanner detect, differentiate or not the degree or type of psychic? How it would answer to minor or major psychics in relation to fully developed/trained "Psi RCC", if an individual Mystic, Cyber-knight, Operator or other OCCs where some degree psychic capacity is expected (or at least more frequent) would register or not, among other things.

All it indicates is presence of psychic power. It can ping on 20+ ISP, major psychic, or master psychic, but when it does you only know that it pinged, not the exact reason why.

So it is limited but covers the one essential that is detecting a certain degree of capacity and should detect most of the example cases i gave above equally as psychic. That's good to know and useful, actually.

Do other groups in North America like Northern Gun, Manistique or local powers that deal with them have access to scanner technology? I'm guessing that Psyscape might be the book for me to go on the matter of psi-detecting or related technology in rifts earth or at least North America.

They all have it, yes. The CS, despite developing it, doesn't use it much. They rely on dog boys and psi-stalkers since the psi-scanner has a 50% success rate.

It doesn't sound like a very good success rate indeed, if you can theoretically get the same level of result by simply doing a coin toss for people coming through the gate. But i'll take a look at Psyscape, just to be sure of the speficifics and judging the poor machine fairly.

Having some ideas for possible future games here.

[guardiandashi]

They all have it, yes. The CS, despite developing it, doesn't use it much. They rely on dog boys and psi-stalkers since the psi-scanner has a 50% success rate.

its ~50% effective, +9% if you wave it at their head within a foot or so of them.
you could likely bump the % up a bit, and the coalition still wouldn't use it much because its max range is ~4ft wheras a psy-stalker or a dog boy has a higher detection potential ~80-90% or so, and at least 10x the range

[SolCannibal]

They all have it, yes. The CS, despite developing it, doesn't use it much. They rely on dog boys and psi-stalkers since the psi-scanner has a 50% success rate.

its ~50% effective, +9% if you wave it at their head within a foot or so of them.
you could likely bump the % up a bit, and the coalition still wouldn't use it much because its max range is ~4ft wheras a psy-stalker or a dog boy has a higher detection potential ~80-90% or so, and at least 10x the range

Wow, that is.... ludricously limited indeed. Practical use of these scanners would be mostly restricted to airport-style metal/x-ray detectors, i would guess. Tracking some psychic or supernatural being, yes, would be a completely different matter.

The Psi-stalker & Dog-boy tracking range is indeed much larger, no denying - basic percentage if memory tricks me not, not as much, at least in the doggos' case. It takes experience - or the target using its power frequently - to even bump things to 50+%, i think. Would have to recheck for sure.

[dreicunan]

They all have it, yes. The CS, despite developing it, doesn't use it much. They rely on dog boys and psi-stalkers since the psi-scanner has a 50% success rate.

its ~50% effective, +9% if you wave it at their head within a foot or so of them.
you could likely bump the % up a bit, and the coalition still wouldn't use it much because its max range is ~4ft wheras a psy-stalker or a dog boy has a higher detection potential ~80-90% or so, and at least 10x the range

Wow, that is.... ludricously limited indeed. Practical use of these scanners would be mostly restricted to airport-style metal/x-ray detectors, i would guess. Tracking some psychic or supernatural being, yes, would be a completely different matter.

The Psi-stalker & Dog-boy tracking range is indeed much larger, no denying - basic percentage if memory tricks me not, not as much, at least in the doggos' case. It takes experience - or the target using its power frequently - to even bump things to 50+%, i think. Would have to recheck for sure.

For Dog Boys and Psi-Stalkers, the sensing is automatic. It is the tracking that has a % chance. If a dog boy gets within 50 ft (+5 per lvl of experience) of a mage or a psychic, he detects them. He just has to roll to try and pinpoint them. For the purposes of screening, however, just make people walk through a checkpoint where there is no on else within 200 ft and have the dog boys check them, and it takes active steps taken to hide you ability to fool them.

The logical way to screen for psychic power to be 100% sure should be genetic testing, but I can't recall if that is ever brought up in a book.

[SolCannibal]

They all have it, yes. The CS, despite developing it, doesn't use it much. They rely on dog boys and psi-stalkers since the psi-scanner has a 50% success rate.

its ~50% effective, +9% if you wave it at their head within a foot or so of them.
you could likely bump the % up a bit, and the coalition still wouldn't use it much because its max range is ~4ft wheras a psy-stalker or a dog boy has a higher detection potential ~80-90% or so, and at least 10x the range

Wow, that is.... ludricously limited indeed. Practical use of these scanners would be mostly restricted to airport-style metal/x-ray detectors, i would guess. Tracking some psychic or supernatural being, yes, would be a completely different matter.

The Psi-stalker & Dog-boy tracking range is indeed much larger, no denying - basic percentage if memory tricks me not, not as much, at least in the doggos' case. It takes experience - or the target using its power frequently - to even bump things to 50+%, i think. Would have to recheck for sure.

For Dog Boys and Psi-Stalkers, the sensing is automatic. It is the tracking that has a % chance. If a dog boy gets within 50 ft (+5 per lvl of experience) of a mage or a psychic, he detects them. He just has to roll to try and pinpoint them. For the purposes of screening, however, just make people walk through a checkpoint where there is no on else within 200 ft and have the dog boys check them, and it takes active steps taken to hide you ability to fool them.

The logical way to screen for psychic power to be 100% sure should be genetic testing, but I can't recall if that is ever brought up in a book.

I think it is brought up in RMB when explaining checking procedures on strangers wanting to enter CS cities. That said, while it would certtainly account for the PSI RCCs and major or minor psychics, i'm uncertain of the case of Mystics, in this particular at least.

[Mack]

Or you mount 6 or 8 Psi-Scanners in an array to drive the successful detection rate up. (I’ll have to read the exact text and do the math later.)

[SolCannibal]

I'm starting to think this subject of psychic detection, tech limitations and different policies in relation to the matter of "mutant citizenship" has enough milleage to merit a topic of its own, apart from this particular thread's subject its deviating somewhat from, i guess.

[Mack]

Or you mount 6 or 8 Psi-Scanners in an array to drive the successful detection rate up. (I’ll have to read the exact text and do the math later.)

After reading the exact wording the scanner does not give any false positives, which makes this easier. We only need one scanner to make a successful detection.

Six scanners set up in an array (like a walk through metal detector) drives the failure rate down to 1.6%, or 1 in 64. Eight scanners would drive it down to 0.4%, or 1 in 256.

…………
Given how ardent FQ is regarding their dislike of psychics, I can easily imagine them using this type of setup to identify psychics. Especially with a single scanner costing only 3,500 credits.

Frankly, I can't imagine them not using this technology.

[Axelmania]

The statement is that they are seldom given positions in the military and law enforcement.
There is no need to contradict the other statements and have psychics in the military.
A few psychics in the police force makes it true.

I think I have a point that it's very odd and suggestive phrasing, "seldom given positions with the military or law enforcement" implies sometimes given positions in both. Otherwise you'd say "never given positions with the military and seldom given chances in law enforcement"

You have a point, but weight of evidence suggests that the military never accepts them.

Weight of "seldom" suggests that "never accepts" is an on-and-off condition

The absolute inclusion of humans not mean the absolute exlcusion of non-humans, and it doesn't tell us anything about how many humans are in the army at all. It just means all humans are welcome.

Y'know, this could be a situation where we're both right, where there might be 2 definitions for the word.

Like if inclusion refers to "access" or "composition"?

It can also be used in some circles advocating for children with special needs to be placed in a regular ex classroom and to participate in all regular ed activities. If you can find any evidence of anyone using the phrase in a way that remotely supports your incorrect usage, let me know so that I can correct them as well.

For example: https://books.google.ca/books?id=QW0GAQAAQBAJ&pg=PT152 "There is, on the one hand, the complete exclusion of sovereignty, and on the other, the absolute inclusion of everyone in the new constituent community"

This doesn't just refer to everyone having access, but also of the community being composed of everyone.

Do you really think that the context supports this interpretation, or do you just enjoy trying to find the least tenable position that you can still claim is possible?

I don't see why "the Quebec Military has never had psychics, ever, and never will" is a more tenable position. All I'm arguing is that's probably not the case, and the state of there being no psychics could be merely ephemeral, a coincidence.

Sort of like how there are no on-the-books bans of women in certain companies yet at a given time we may not see them due to a variety of other factors, even though women could have worked there before and could again later.

The majority of the human race to this day views marriage as naturally resulting in children if something doesn't/hasnct gone wrong with the ability of the husband or wife to have children.

I'm less interested in the majority of the human race, and more interested in the cultures of Canada and the United States that the Coalition States were descended from. Both of which have now permitted same-sex marriage and spread awareness of that to the public.

Even if man+woman=offspring is the overall perception of intent, I wouldn't expect "getting married means having offspring containing both your genes" to be an inherent assumption in cultures descending from ours.

Even before same-sex marriage, we had couples who would marry and either choose not to procreate or be unable to (infertile) and if they had kids at all (some married couples do not do that) may have adopted ones not sharing the genes of either.

in some areas that has now changed, especially in "first world" nations.
However, I can guarantee you that won't be the case in a post-apocalyptic society trying to reclaim the world for humanity (CS) or to at least keep their part of the world for pure humans (Free Quebec).
You need humans to have a humanity for whom you can protect the territory.

I can't GUARANTEE it wouldn't be the case, but I agree insofar as that human-centric nations in Rifts Earth would incentivize reproduction. I don't know if it would be to the point of prohibiting marriages for those unable to reproduce though. If that is the case, the absence of specifics about it is conspicuous.

[dreicunan]

Or you mount 6 or 8 Psi-Scanners in an array to drive the successful detection rate up. (I’ll have to read the exact text and do the math later.)

After reading the exact wording the scanner does not give any false positives, which makes this easier. We only need one scanner to make a successful detection.

Six scanners set up in an array (like a walk through metal detector) drives the failure rate down to 1.6%, or 1 in 64. Eight scanners would drive it down to 0.4%, or 1 in 256.

…………
Given how ardent FQ is regarding their dislike of psychics, I can easily imagine them using this type of setup to identify psychics. Especially with a single scanner costing only 3,500 credits.

Frankly, I can't imagine them not using this technology.

Yes, that would be the solution. Something like a 20% success rate would better explain why it doesn't get used much by the CS.

[Shark_Force]

Or you mount 6 or 8 Psi-Scanners in an array to drive the successful detection rate up. (I’ll have to read the exact text and do the math later.)

After reading the exact wording the scanner does not give any false positives, which makes this easier. We only need one scanner to make a successful detection.

Six scanners set up in an array (like a walk through metal detector) drives the failure rate down to 1.6%, or 1 in 64. Eight scanners would drive it down to 0.4%, or 1 in 256.

…………
Given how ardent FQ is regarding their dislike of psychics, I can easily imagine them using this type of setup to identify psychics. Especially with a single scanner costing only 3,500 credits.

Frankly, I can't imagine them not using this technology.

Yes, that would be the solution. Something like a 20% success rate would better explain why it doesn't get used much by the CS.

provided we're saying they use this technology (in series)... at secure checkpoints. 20k credits is next to nothing if you're protecting the president of the united states, or a bank vault, or stuff like that. it's not so inconsequential if you're talking about installing one in every doorway at the local mcdonald's... basically, if you might find a metal detector there in modern US, i'd say there's a decent to high chance they'd have it in the equivalent free quebec facility.

[ShadowLogan]

Or you mount 6 or 8 Psi-Scanners in an array to drive the successful detection rate up. (I’ll have to read the exact text and do the math later.)

After reading the exact wording the scanner does not give any false positives, which makes this easier. We only need one scanner to make a successful detection.

Six scanners set up in an array (like a walk through metal detector) drives the failure rate down to 1.6%, or 1 in 64. Eight scanners would drive it down to 0.4%, or 1 in 256.

…………
Given how ardent FQ is regarding their dislike of psychics, I can easily imagine them using this type of setup to identify psychics. Especially with a single scanner costing only 3,500 credits.

Frankly, I can't imagine them not using this technology.

Keep in mind to that the CS Psi-Scanner being discussed is a PORTABLE unit, which is balancing performance and portability, so a non-portable unit is likely to have better performance (I'm thinking of the difference in reliability between radar units of various sizes as mentioned in Rifts MB).

You might not need an array of the devices, just a scaled up version.

[eliakon]

Or you mount 6 or 8 Psi-Scanners in an array to drive the successful detection rate up. (I’ll have to read the exact text and do the math later.)

After reading the exact wording the scanner does not give any false positives, which makes this easier. We only need one scanner to make a successful detection.

Six scanners set up in an array (like a walk through metal detector) drives the failure rate down to 1.6%, or 1 in 64. Eight scanners would drive it down to 0.4%, or 1 in 256.

…………
Given how ardent FQ is regarding their dislike of psychics, I can easily imagine them using this type of setup to identify psychics. Especially with a single scanner costing only 3,500 credits.

Frankly, I can't imagine them not using this technology.

Yes, that would be the solution. Something like a 20% success rate would better explain why it doesn't get used much by the CS.

provided we're saying they use this technology (in series)... at secure checkpoints. 20k credits is next to nothing if you're protecting the president of the united states, or a bank vault, or stuff like that. it's not so inconsequential if you're talking about installing one in every doorway at the local mcdonald's... basically, if you might find a metal detector there in modern US, i'd say there's a decent to high chance they'd have it in the equivalent free quebec facility.

Ports of entry.
If you scan everyone as they enter your areas, then you don't need to scan them later...

[SolCannibal]

Hmm, how do MoM users fit exactly on FQ attitudes toward Psychics? The technology does produce some degree of psi power and an even great degree of psychological instability.

[eliakon]

Hmm, how do MoM users fit exactly on FQ attitudes toward Psychics? The technology does produce some degree of psi power and an even great degree of psychological instability.

I would say that they are considered Psychics.
And treated as such. If they are lucky.

I mean you get the implants, you get psyhic powers. Seems simple enough.
MoM = Psi

[dreicunan]

Hmm, how do MoM users fit exactly on FQ attitudes toward Psychics? The technology does produce some degree of psi power and an even great degree of psychological instability.

I would say that they are considered Psychics.
And treated as such. If they are lucky.

I mean you get the implants, you get psyhic powers. Seems simple enough.
MoM = Psi

They aren't fans of them, but will hire them to do jobs (normally outside of FQ territory).

[Mack]

There are no Crazies in the FQ military.

FQ, p33... "No Crazies/humans augmented via MOM conversions, at least not within the nation itself nor its military."

It goes on to say that while freelancers might be hired, they "are not usually allowed into large population centers nor on military bases; they are kept at an arm's distance."

[Axelmania]

Q: if the police was 0% psychics like the military, how would Free Quebec deal with entities who can't be harmed by normal attacks, or roaming Astral Projection terrorists?

Is there basically nothing out there to stop roaming Poltergeists / Possessing entities sent at the town? Nothing from stopping mages who cast Astral Projection from appearing to scare your kids?

It's probably even more terrifying since non-psychic adults can't see astral projectors like children can =/ So the parents might think you were lying. Hopefully there is enough Lore: Psychic going around to inform them otherwise.

It seems like Free Quebec would need the Vanguard even more than the rest of the CS would. Or some kind of friendly Francophone Goddess to intercede against enemies immune to attacks which aren't magical or psychic.

[Blue_Lion]

Q: if the police was 0% psychics like the military, how would Free Quebec deal with entities who can't be harmed by normal attacks, or roaming Astral Projection terrorists?

Is there basically nothing out there to stop roaming Poltergeists / Possessing entities sent at the town? Nothing from stopping mages who cast Astral Projection from appearing to scare your kids?

It's probably even more terrifying since non-psychic adults can't see astral projectors like children can =/ So the parents might think you were lying. Hopefully there is enough Lore: Psychic going around to inform them otherwise.

It seems like Free Quebec would need the Vanguard even more than the rest of the CS would. Or some kind of friendly Francophone Goddess to intercede against enemies immune to attacks which aren't magical or psychic.

A: They do not have a problem with all the things you listed for some unknown/unstated reason. We can only guess at what that is but will never know.

Why would a bunch of mages cast a spell to scare kids? That seams a lot of waisted effort. More so given that FQ is not expansionist.

[Shark_Force]

Or you mount 6 or 8 Psi-Scanners in an array to drive the successful detection rate up. (I’ll have to read the exact text and do the math later.)

After reading the exact wording the scanner does not give any false positives, which makes this easier. We only need one scanner to make a successful detection.

Six scanners set up in an array (like a walk through metal detector) drives the failure rate down to 1.6%, or 1 in 64. Eight scanners would drive it down to 0.4%, or 1 in 256.

…………
Given how ardent FQ is regarding their dislike of psychics, I can easily imagine them using this type of setup to identify psychics. Especially with a single scanner costing only 3,500 credits.

Frankly, I can't imagine them not using this technology.

Yes, that would be the solution. Something like a 20% success rate would better explain why it doesn't get used much by the CS.

provided we're saying they use this technology (in series)... at secure checkpoints. 20k credits is next to nothing if you're protecting the president of the united states, or a bank vault, or stuff like that. it's not so inconsequential if you're talking about installing one in every doorway at the local mcdonald's... basically, if you might find a metal detector there in modern US, i'd say there's a decent to high chance they'd have it in the equivalent free quebec facility.

Ports of entry.
If you scan everyone as they enter your areas, then you don't need to scan them later...

sure, sounds good... until you stop to consider that there could be tens of thousands of people needing to pass through places that normally don't require any security checkpoints at all.

again: something that will beyond a shadow of a doubt be used if you're getting an interview with the prime minster of free quebec, or whatever he's called. will most likely be used if you're looking to get into even a very minor military base with no ID (proper ID implies that you've already been thoroughly tested; more secure areas within bases won't care that your ID says you've been tested, they'll test again just to be sure). will very likely be used if you want to access secure areas or use secure devices (i wouldn't be surprised if, for example, a computer that can be used to launch a massive volley of long-range missiles anywhere on the continent had a detector built into the door, or even requires you to wear a special headset or something like that to use it). used on anyone caught committing a crime, probably that too (major ones, anyways... probably not speeding tickets, unless you annoy the officer, for example).

scanning everyone, everywhere, is simply neither cost effective nor practical. you might not like the idea of a psychic walking around on the streets, but simply put, they probably aren't a legitimate threat worth spending thousands of man-hours and credits defending against. it isn't worth adding several hours (you need to set up multiple layers of defense for it to work, remember) to every single moderately long distance trip, and any hole in the defense basically renders the entire thing potentially invalid; the people you care most about denying access (the ones with the skills and motivation to cause harm) are the ones your net is least likely to capture. it would be like needing to go through airport security several times over each time you want to go anywhere. any large vehicle would need to be thoroughly searched (remember, these scanners are very short range) as well, any shipping containers would need to be opened and searched... just.... no. not for something they would like to have, but don't need to have, just like you might be willing to go through airport security to make a 2000 mile trip in the shortest amount of time possible, but you're not about to go through that every time you want to go to the grocery store.

now, they might do things like requiring you get tested to get various licenses, or as part of a job interview (possibly not for all jobs, but definitely for high security risk jobs, probably including any military), but to just go out in public? yeah, not happening.

[Blue_Lion]

I think the scan Idea would be at major/critical places within the city and the entry points to the city. They also would likely scan every citizen at some set point. That means to get into the city you would cross through a check point that scans every one and would detect psi. Thus it would allow them to keep them off the city streets but not out of the territory as a whole. It does not require scanning every one in all areas, just that every one is scanned at one point. (the fortified nature of the city would help with this.)

Every one that enters and been scanned would likely be giving some sort of ID, and attaching the need of an ID to swipe with all purchases(or using it as the credit card) would make it hard for people with no ID to purchase goods.

It may not be a fool proof system but it would work for the most part.

[SolCannibal]

Q: if the police was 0% psychics like the military, how would Free Quebec deal with entities who can't be harmed by normal attacks, or roaming Astral Projection terrorists?

Is there basically nothing out there to stop roaming Poltergeists / Possessing entities sent at the town? Nothing from stopping mages who cast Astral Projection from appearing to scare your kids?

It's probably even more terrifying since non-psychic adults can't see astral projectors like children can =/ So the parents might think you were lying. Hopefully there is enough Lore: Psychic going around to inform them otherwise.

It seems like Free Quebec would need the Vanguard even more than the rest of the CS would. Or some kind of friendly Francophone Goddess to intercede against enemies immune to attacks which aren't magical or psychic.

A: They do not have a problem with all the things you listed for some unknown/unstated reason. We can only guess at what that is but will never know.

Main motive i can think of would be the greater majority of ley line nexi and similarly sensitive places being located outside their main population centers. doesn't wholy justify, but does help somewhat explain, i think.

Why would a bunch of mages cast a spell to scare kids? That seams a lot of waisted effort. More so given that FQ is not expansionist.

I think Axel's point was more about the "incapable of even noticing the dangerous enviroment one is actually in, unless you start listening to one's kids strange warnings" angle, actually.

I think the scan Idea would be at major/critical places within the city and the entry points to the city. They also would likely scan every citizen at some set point. That means to get into the city you would cross through a check point that scans every one and would detect psi. Thus it would allow them to keep them off the city streets but not out of the territory as a whole. It does not require scanning every one in all areas, just that every one is scanned at one point. (the fortified nature of the city would help with this.)

Every one that enters and been scanned would likely be giving some sort of ID, and attaching the need of an ID to swipe with all purchases(or using it as the credit card) would make it hard for people with no ID to purchase goods.

It may not be a fool proof system but it would work for the most part.

True. I think the image overall sounds quite consistent with how RMB described CS procedures in relation to people entrance in their cities (iff not the 'burbs themselves). So, maybe somewhat dated to the CS per se, but fitting with neighboring nations-states in the "heartlands" of post-armaggedon North America, i guess.

[Shark_Force]

I think the scan Idea would be at major/critical places within the city and the entry points to the city. They also would likely scan every citizen at some set point. That means to get into the city you would cross through a check point that scans every one and would detect psi. Thus it would allow them to keep them off the city streets but not out of the territory as a whole. It does not require scanning every one in all areas, just that every one is scanned at one point. (the fortified nature of the city would help with this.)

Every one that enters and been scanned would likely be giving some sort of ID, and attaching the need of an ID to swipe with all purchases(or using it as the credit card) would make it hard for people with no ID to purchase goods.

It may not be a fool proof system but it would work for the most part.

problem with the ID that gets you out of being scanned is that you can just get a forged one. it isn't really a replacement for scanning, at least, not for anywhere that's important.

and the problem with putting it on the access points to the city is that you could have tens of thousands or more traveling in and out of the city every single day, and running every single one of those people through an in-depth security gauntlet is going to be a huge problem. that is fine if it's solving another problem, but in this case, it isn't really solving anything. we know there are psychics in those areas anyways... they aren't liked, and they're strongly encouraged to leave (30,000 credits and a vehicle is a pretty impressive incentive), but they're there already. FQ does not have an obsession with keeping psychics out at all costs. they'd have to be crazy to invest in security at every access point to their cities to the point where they could really feel confident it was working, and to all appearances, they aren't that crazy, at least, not in that area.

[Blue_Lion]

I think the scan Idea would be at major/critical places within the city and the entry points to the city. They also would likely scan every citizen at some set point. That means to get into the city you would cross through a check point that scans every one and would detect psi. Thus it would allow them to keep them off the city streets but not out of the territory as a whole. It does not require scanning every one in all areas, just that every one is scanned at one point. (the fortified nature of the city would help with this.)

Every one that enters and been scanned would likely be giving some sort of ID, and attaching the need of an ID to swipe with all purchases(or using it as the credit card) would make it hard for people with no ID to purchase goods.

It may not be a fool proof system but it would work for the most part.

problem with the ID that gets you out of being scanned is that you can just get a forged one. it isn't really a replacement for scanning, at least, not for anywhere that's important.

and the problem with putting it on the access points to the city is that you could have tens of thousands or more traveling in and out of the city every single day, and running every single one of those people through an in-depth security gauntlet is going to be a huge problem. that is fine if it's solving another problem, but in this case, it isn't really solving anything. we know there are psychics in those areas anyways... they aren't liked, and they're strongly encouraged to leave (30,000 credits and a vehicle is a pretty impressive incentive), but they're there already. FQ does not have an obsession with keeping psychics out at all costs. they'd have to be crazy to invest in security at every access point to their cities to the point where they could really feel confident it was working, and to all appearances, they aren't that crazy, at least, not in that area.

The cities in rifts are typically not open cities like we have but fortified cities. People comminuting to and from work in the fortified city would be uncommon, compared to modern cities. (more so giving the lower population of rifts) It would be common to have lines to go through to enter like lines of security at an airport. It could also be like a military base when I was at Arifjan 1 contracting company alone had thousands of FN that had to walk through security check points every day. While a hassle it is totally feasible to have security check points people walk through that have scanners and imaging radar check for contraband and help prevent unregistered psi from entering the system. Then you add a second layer of security around military and key buildings and you have a very good system to track access to the city and by psi.

I never said it was a perfect system, but creating copies of swiped ID for sales could very well be like making fake credit cards, also if they scan brings up a picture of the person like military IDs then it becomes harder to fake.

So yea a paranoid city state of xenophobes would probably set up something like that. Making it a feasible idea, that they would.

[Shark_Force]

food for millions of people has to come from somewhere. so does all the raw materials for their factories. naturally, a lot of stuff will need to come out as well. there are going to be people coming and going. certainly not the entire population of the city on a daily basis, but there's a lot of people there and they're going to need a lot of stuff to be moved around.

and yes, naturally there will be efforts to make it harder to forge IDs. and equally naturally, there will be efforts to figure out how to get around those anti-forging techniques. there is no indication in rifts that they've figured out an unbreakable system, therefore there will be forgeries (of various qualities); they may require some criminal syndicate to hack into the database and put data in there, and some well-placed bribes, but it will be something that happens, particularly since we know there *is* a criminal syndicate, and they already need to get all kinds of black market goods into and out of the city.

not to mention the system you're talking about creates a scenario where once someone figures out how to get past the entrance (and again, they only have short-range, not terribly reliable scanners, so you can totally use psionics or magic to get through any number of other places than a handful of designated gates), they're completely in the clear. i think someone said the scanners detect large amounts of ISP, so forget about anything complicated, a psychic could just spend all their ISP, walk in, and be through with no difficulties. with a defense that shallow, your first line of defense is only going to create a false sense of security.

and again, all this to mostly catch the least important people (does anyone really care all that much if the minor psychic with healing touch and bio-regeneration gets in?). heck, frankly, we don't have any evidence that free quebec is even all that paranoid; their policies mostly seem to revolve around leaving their neighbours alone with the expectation that they, in turn, will also be left alone. that doesn't sound all that paranoid to me.

[dreicunan]

The scanner detects those with a measureable amount of ISP, which is defined as more than 20 ISP or being a major or master psychic. The fact thay merely being a major or master psychic can cause a ping suggests that it detects based on max ISP amount, not current.

[SolCannibal]

The scanner detectstbosewoth a measureable amount of ISP, which is defined as more than 20 ISP or being a major or master psychic. The fact thay merely being a major or master psychic can cause a ping suggests that it detects based on max ISP amount, not current.

On your own words "more than 20 ISP or being a major or master psychic", so i wouldn't be quite so certain, even though the chance of someone who's neither (outside of MoM-users) having 20 ISP is probably quite slim.

[eliakon]

The scanner detectstbosewoth a measureable amount of ISP, which is defined as more than 20 ISP or being a major or master psychic. The fact thay merely being a major or master psychic can cause a ping suggests that it detects based on max ISP amount, not current.

On your own words "more than 20 ISP or being a major or master psychic", so i wouldn't be quite so certain, even though the chance of someone who's neither (outside of MoM-users) having 20 ISP is probably quite slim.

This gets into the debate on if you can fool a psi-stalker by spending all your PPE.

Basically the problem is that 'pools' have the same term for the "max" or "base" value as they do for the "current" or "temporary" value

Saying a character has 50 PPE can mean that they can hold up to 50 PPE (max/base/whatever) AND at the same time can also that they currently only have 50 out of their usual 300 (temporary/current/whatever)

[dreicunan]

The scanner detectstbosewoth a measureable amount of ISP, which is defined as more than 20 ISP or being a major or master psychic. The fact thay merely being a major or master psychic can cause a ping suggests that it detects based on max ISP amount, not current.

On your own words "more than 20 ISP or being a major or master psychic", so i wouldn't be quite so certain, even though the chance of someone who's neither (outside of MoM-users) having 20 ISP is probably quite slim.

Don't take my word for it. The exact wording from Psyscape, p. 155, is: "The Psi-Scanner was developed to help identify human and human-looking D-Bees and Shapechangers who possess a measurable amount of psionic energy — more than 20 I.S.P. or anybody who is a Major or Master Psychic."

[Axelmania]

A: They do not have a problem with all the things you listed for some unknown/unstated reason. We can only guess at what that is but will never know.

Or: perhaps they do have this problem, and just didn't state it?

Or: perhaps there is an undescribed civilian militia doing psychic defense. Or the vanguard (it's not like FQ military would be as big a threat to ferreting out the Vanguard as the rest of the CS was with its Psi-Bat)

Or: perhaps there are psychics in the police force.

Why would a bunch of mages cast a spell to scare kids?
That seams a lot of waisted effort.
More so given that FQ is not expansionist.

Are you thinking evil groups like the City of Brass have never targeted FQ?

Mind-breaking the next generation would be a great way to cause problems for the enemy.

On the other hand, if they retain their sanity it could also backfire and galvanize them to hate you more.

Since this thread is bringing up some of the devices, let's think about some of the consequences that Astral Projection spies you can't kill causes for your community.

Aside from the spying problem (the AP spies can give reports of what they overheard or saw) there is also a MODESTY problem.

Astral Projectors can come watch you take a shower, use the toilet, or enjoy intimate moments with a spouse or at the brothel...

WB12 p 156 has an interesting device called the "TW Thought Projector". Poor availability and nearly 100k credits, but it's out there...

Mages using this can only project still images, psychics can do moving images and sound...

Once a device like this is used by a spy, you could use traditional video recording equipment to record the projection to make a permanent copy, and circulate it by other means.

That... could lead to some very interesting situations.

Of course, that could also backfire and just make the muggles very angry at you. They could try and avoid infighting by calling the videos faked/doctored, of course, but it would still get the gears turning.

This might help explain some portion of anti-magic attitudes. Dunscon probably trolls people with stuff like this all the time (he's Diabolical!), enflaming anger and suspicion towards mages/psychics in the hopes of driving them into his protective bosom.

It also means society in general would be very different in large communities.

Modesty could still exist in small wilderness communities, of course, since people wouldn't bother to spy on them, or not know where to find them, or not want to bother with the costs required in sending people out sex tapes they didn't consent to have filmed.

[SolCannibal]

The scanner detectstbosewoth a measureable amount of ISP, which is defined as more than 20 ISP or being a major or master psychic. The fact thay merely being a major or master psychic can cause a ping suggests that it detects based on max ISP amount, not current.

On your own words "more than 20 ISP or being a major or master psychic", so i wouldn't be quite so certain, even though the chance of someone who's neither (outside of MoM-users) having 20 ISP is probably quite slim.

Don't take my word for it. The exact wording from Psyscape, p. 155, is: "The Psi-Scanner was developed to help identify human and human-looking D-Bees and Shapechangers who possess a measurable amount of psionic energy — more than 20 I.S.P. or anybody who is a Major or Master Psychic."

Well, the dubiousness/implication seems to be about the same, so i would you gave us the gist of it pretty well.

[Blue_Lion]

A: They do not have a problem with all the things you listed for some unknown/unstated reason. We can only guess at what that is but will never know.

Or: perhaps they do have this problem, and just didn't state it?

Or: perhaps there is an undescribed civilian militia doing psychic defense. Or the vanguard (it's not like FQ military would be as big a threat to ferreting out the Vanguard as the rest of the CS was with its Psi-Bat)

Or: perhaps there are psychics in the police force.

Why would a bunch of mages cast a spell to scare kids?
That seams a lot of waisted effort.
More so given that FQ is not expansionist.

Are you thinking evil groups like the City of Brass have never targeted FQ?

Mind-breaking the next generation would be a great way to cause problems for the enemy.

On the other hand, if they retain their sanity it could also backfire and galvanize them to hate you more.

Since this thread is bringing up some of the devices, let's think about some of the consequences that Astral Projection spies you can't kill causes for your community.

Aside from the spying problem (the AP spies can give reports of what they overheard or saw) there is also a MODESTY problem.

Astral Projectors can come watch you take a shower, use the toilet, or enjoy intimate moments with a spouse or at the brothel...

WB12 p 156 has an interesting device called the "TW Thought Projector". Poor availability and nearly 100k credits, but it's out there...

Mages using this can only project still images, psychics can do moving images and sound...

Once a device like this is used by a spy, you could use traditional video recording equipment to record the projection to make a permanent copy, and circulate it by other means.

That... could lead to some very interesting situations.

Of course, that could also backfire and just make the muggles very angry at you. They could try and avoid infighting by calling the videos faked/doctored, of course, but it would still get the gears turning.

This might help explain some portion of anti-magic attitudes. Dunscon probably trolls people with stuff like this all the time (he's Diabolical!), enflaming anger and suspicion towards mages/psychics in the hopes of driving them into his protective bosom.

It also means society in general would be very different in large communities.

Modesty could still exist in small wilderness communities, of course, since people wouldn't bother to spy on them, or not know where to find them, or not want to bother with the costs required in sending people out sex tapes they didn't consent to have filmed.

Got it more of your the baby could be a dragon so smash its head in with a hammer logic.


(if it was a rampant problem for them it would be worth addressed in writing. As it is not then it is not something that is not a rampant problem for them. As I said we may not know why but it is not happening.)

[SolCannibal]

While i don't see the whole "True FoM messing playing with privacy as a tactic" as very probable, it is true that a major group blindspot might attract the attention of people and groups intending to exploit it and that it is NOT an issue is somewhat noteworthy.

Most nexi and places with a propensity for rift opening being in the open field (or "monster camps" like Calgary) instead of populated areas could be a factor, and the possibility of a local branch of the Vanguard (that might keep in touch with their colleagues while being mostly independent in current times) would be another that could go a long way. Add to it "stopgap solutions" like the use of actual dogs or other specific trained animals in place of dog boys & psi-stalkers to support what supernatural-detecting tech there is and i guess one can come up with a scenario to round things out reasonably.

[Axelmania]

more of your the baby could be a dragon so smash its head in with a hammer logic.

Your comparison doesn't make sense. It's more of a "your baby could be a dragon, so have ways to detect dragons present in some form in your community as a deterrent".

To wilderness communities which dragons would rarely target for baby-swaps, if they are at all aware of dragons' ability to do this, they may think "dragons are rare, and amongst dragons, most will take other approaches"

(if it was a rampant problem for them it would be worth addressed in writing. As it is not then it is not something that is not a rampant problem for them. As I said we may not know why but it is not happening.)

That FoM engages in terrorism against the CS and that the CS hates magic users IS in writing.

It doesn't go into every specific instance of terrorism, or every possible tactic that has been used. That doesn't mean that we should assume a possibility has not been enacted.

If we are told "FoM poisons food" for example, but not specifically told "FoM poisons rice" this isn't grounds to think that FoM has not poisoned rice.

i don't see the whole "True FoM messing playing with privacy as a tactic" as very probable,

Why not? Astral Projection is mach-speed flight which makes you immune to most attacks, so it is a low-risk means of harrying the enemy. The inability to attack directly with it limits it to information-based interference.

it is true that a major group blindspot might attract the attention of people and groups intending to exploit it and that it is NOT an issue is somewhat noteworthy.

Unless it IS one of the many particulars by which those with supernatural powers abuse muggles, and one of the many variants of underlying causes which leads people to be suspicious of those who can do things like that.

What is truly amazing is how Carol Black and Joseph Prosek II managed to get people to trust psychics, even though psychic sensitives who can use Remote Viewing or Astral Projection can spy on you in the shower better than Scott Lang ever could.

I think probably the reason that CS citizens can tolerate psychics in the military is probably because they are regularly scanned/interviewed to make sure that they aren't engaging in behavior like that. Many who did would be seriously reprimanded, one would imagine. CS military psychics who abuse their powers against the population could be publicly punished to show that CS psychics are held accountable in ways that non-military psychics are not.

[eliakon]

Or maybe... just maybe....
FQ has the same plot armor the CS does.
Thus all the aweful things that could/should happen to them because they are not able to defend against them? Simply don't happen because if they did it would spoil the story.

Its setting after all.
We have setting A. In setting A we have elements B, C, D, E, and F.
These elements are set up to tell a specific story.
Thus we allow narrative fiat to allow for those stories to be told... even if they are not the most probable.

I mean lets face it... all the leather and spear barbarians hunting dinosaurs and not knowing what technology is?
Not at all realistic. but we don't see people saying "Well, that's not logical, time to get rid of every barbarian society in Rifts"
For the same reason the CS and FQ don't work under detailed analysis. They simply have to many holes and issues. BUT they are part of the story so the holes get papered over with "look, just accept it works so we can have the story"

If you don't like how the setting is presented feel free to change it of course.
But the presented setting includes FQ. Even though FQ should, logically, have fallen with in weeks to its foes with out any form of magical or psychic defense against foes that have both. The reason is "because the story says so"

[Blue_Lion]

FQ is not the CS.

And there are ways to detect a dragons by both FQ and CS.

I did take a poetic license with the statement, but you have said in debates the CS is justified in gunning down every child they saw because it could be a dragon in disguise.


Just because something could happen does not mean it is happening to the point it is a problem. If they attacked in a specific way that a faction had no way to defend against to the point it was it would be worth mentioning.


If we do not know of a how they defend it but know it is not a note worthy problem from them because it has never been noted, it is not happening for some unknown reason.


The idea that they can not defend against it so it must happen all the time thus they have a major problem that is basically destroying them, and it is never mentioned is some what absurd. And is the same type of logic that because there is a chance it might be X it is ok for me to kill it. (Sure by with what we know it could be possible but we do not know it is happening so taking actions on it is not cannon.)

[eliakon]

FQ is not the CS.

Hmmm.... it is almost as if I used both names separately as examples of two different things?
Almost as if...
(if this was not directed at me, then all I can say is "good sarcasm is never wasted" )

And there are ways to detect a dragons by both FQ and CS.

Feel free to name two, just two, ways that FQ can detect a dragon with out implementing a house rule?
As I have a PC who does not have access to Magic, Psionics, nor access to a Japanese SNARLS system (aka is limited to the same resources as FQ) but would like to be able to identify dragons... I would be most interested in how to go about it

I did take a poetic license with the statement, but you have said in debates the CS is justified in gunning down every child they saw because it could be a dragon in disguise.

Since you are not attributing this to anyone I have no way of knowing who you are talking to/about.
So I will just ignore this as a non-sequitur.

Just because something could happen does not mean it is happening to the point it is a problem. If they attacked in a specific way that a faction had no way to defend against to the point it was it would be worth mentioning.

You just described "plot armor"... you do realize that right?
The "this narrative only works if the story elements in it exist... so we will presume that the elements do exist and not instead discuss how it can't."

If we do not know of a how they defend it but know it is not a note worthy problem from them because it has never been noted, it is not happening for some unknown reason.

Correct. And the reason appears to be "Plot armor"

The idea that they can not defend against it so it must happen all the time thus they have a major problem that is basically destroying them, and it is never mentioned is some what absurd. And is the same type of logic that because there is a chance it might be X it is ok for me to kill it. (Sure by with what we know it could be possible but we do not know it is happening so taking actions on it is not cannon.)

Correct. The reason it does not happen is the plot requires it not happen.
This is a classic example of why you hear about people who talk about their PCs becoming worth thousands of trillions of credits by trading dimensionally, or that they single handedly took down the CS, or stopped the war in Tolkeen, or killed Splyncryth or what ever...
...because their GM was unwilling to step in and say "look I know that technically the rules allow this...but it breaks the setting to examine it in that detail so we just agree to avoid looking behind the curtain"
Instead those people look behind the curtain and then wonder why the magic of OZ fades away.

[Blue_Lion]

Perhaps I misunderstood your stance I perceived your stance is they have no defense so it has to be happening. I do apologizes for the misunderstanding.

I think we can end this by agreeing that it does not happen for some unspecified reason/plot armor and move on.(does that sound fair.

[eliakon]

Perhaps I misunderstood your stance I perceived your stance is they have no defense so it has to be happening. I do apologizes for the misunderstanding.

I think we can end this by agreeing that it does not happen for some unspecified reason/plot armor and move on.(does that sound fair.

Sounds like a winning plan to me.

[Axelmania]

Or maybe... just maybe....
FQ has the same plot armor the CS does.
Thus all the aweful things that could/should happen to them because they are not able to defend against them?
Simply don't happen because if they did it would spoil the story.

What is your basis for asserting undescribed things couldn't have happened?

I mean lets face it... all the leather and spear barbarians hunting dinosaurs and not knowing what technology is?
Not at all realistic. but we don't see people saying "Well, that's not logical, time to get rid of every barbarian society in Rifts"

Please be more specific about which groups you are referring to. I cannot agree or disagree until you clarify what groups and why you think this number is too high.

For the same reason the CS and FQ don't work under detailed analysis. They simply have to many holes and issues. BUT they are part of the story so the holes get papered over with "look, just accept it works so we can have the story"

What I'm discussing isn't a "hole", because being terrorized by astral projectors would not cause either CS or FQ to implode. If anything, it could help explain human prejudice.

If you don't like how the setting is presented feel free to change it of course.

What I'm proposing is not a "change", or in conflict with how the setting is presented. I believe it falls in line with the setting.

But the presented setting includes FQ. Even though FQ should, logically, have fallen with in weeks to its foes with out any form of magical or psychic defense against foes that have both. The reason is "because the story says so"

Where does it say they lack psychic and magical defenses?

No psychics in the military at present day does not mean no psychics in the police, no psychics in the community, no assistance from the Vanguard, no assistance from roaming demigods.

And there are ways to detect a dragons by both FQ and CS.

Just to clarify, are you referring to FQ using psychics to detect dragons, or some other means?

I did take a poetic license with the statement, but you have said in debates the CS is justified in gunning down every child they saw because it could be a dragon in disguise.

BL please clarify who you are talking to and give more details about whatever debate that statement was made in?

Just because something could happen does not mean it is happening to the point it is a problem.
If they attacked in a specific way that a faction had no way to defend against to the point it was it would be worth mentioning.

It's not an "attack" though, it's just harassment. Sending astral projectors to scare FQ's kids is pretty much like sending Magic Pigeons to harass the Psi-Net patrols in the Burbs.

I don't expect that Kev would bother thinking up every possible way magic could be used to harry the CS or expect us to think that all the details of the game are limited to whatever he discusses.

Like for example, I guess because the vast majority of populations are not given names, Kevin intended them to be nameless?

If we do not know of a how they defend it but know it is not a note worthy problem from them because it has never been noted, it is not happening for some unknown reason.

Siembieda not noting SPECIFICS doesn't mean he hasn't referred to problems like this happening via a broad brush. Any reference to "terrorism" can include stuff like this.

The idea that they can not defend against it so it must happen all the time thus they have a major problem that is basically destroying them,

Pigeons and Astral Projection would not necessarily "destroy" these communities.

And is the same type of logic that because there is a chance it might be X it is ok for me to kill it.
(Sure by with what we know it could be possible but we do not know it is happening so taking actions on it is not cannon.)

If you're going to keep bringing up this "dragons disguised as babies" thing, I again request you provide specifics of whatever thread you are bringing it up from.

I really don't understand the connection.

[Blackwater Sniper]

TL;DR
I've always been a fan of psyops. Deceit partnered with a healthy dose of black ops can do wonders to sway opinions behind the scenes.

I think the Coalition would play the long game and hire third parties to do dirty work to keep separation between themselves and direct involvement with Quebec. This is where player characters come it: you may not even know you are working for the Coalition when hired to attack FQ in a certain manner.

[DD The Shmey]

To summarize my understanding of the recent posts, we were discussing how Free Quebec is relatively vulnerable to magic, psionics, and the supernatural due to their lack of psychics, dog boys, and psi-stalkers who the Coalition uses to great effect in detecting and combating these supernatural threats. Axelmania points out an example of an ability, astral projection, that could be used to great effect for spying and espionage within Free Quebec that they would have no counter to. He also points to instances where the books say that the FoM engages in terrorism against the CS (and assumingly also FQ by extension), and suggests that some of the terrorist attacks the books alluded to, but never described in detail, could have been acts of espionage and psionic harassment in the state of Free Quebec, that were particularly vexing to the Quebecois due to their inability to combat it, and contributed to factions distrust and prejudice of psychics.

Others in this chat seem to be skeptical of this suggestion, believing that Axelmania may be jumping to conclusions without evidence. Blue Lion points out a complete lack of content/text by any palladium author describing the use of such tactics by the FoM, but does not have any explanation for why this FQ weakness has not been exploited. Eliakon gives an out of universe explanation of "Plot Armor" to explain why Free Quebec has not encountered issues with magical and supernatural incursions that they would be unable to defend against.

I think that Axelmania nailed it with his out of universe explanation for why there is no written material mirroring his ideas, the palladium writers never thought of it. I don't think that there is some kind of major plot hole here that the FoM using these tactics would spoil. The idea of the FoM using these tactics is compelling, and actually does fit into the established lore with two exceptions.

First, as Blue Lion pointed out there is no written material describing it, so it isn't really safe to draw any hard conclusions out of these speculations. I think I would, however, modify his quote below to read:

"The idea that they cannot defend against it so it must happen all the time thus they have a major problem that has <vexed them so much that it has negatively influenced the factions worldview on psychics in general>, and it is never mentioned is <stretching it>."

The second exception is that there has been no response by the Free Quebec to attempt to establish any countermeasures to this threat. One would think that any protracted campaign of spying and harassment using tactics that they had no defense against would elicit some kind of immune response, forcing Free Quebec to race to find a way to combat it, especially if the harassment was significant enough to sway their policies to the point of distrusting and repressing a portion of their own citizens.

Interestingly enough, there is a faction out there that in the last 50 years has been taking drastic and unorthodox measures to try to develop countermeasures to detect and combat magic, psionics, and the supernatural. It's the Coalition States.

When I realized this, I asked myself, what is the difference in between the Coalition States and Free Quebec when it comes to their relationship with the Federation of Magic. There is the obvious history between the two, but there is also proximity. Which leads me to an in universe explanation for why the Fed of Magic hasn't used Axelmania's tactics against Free Quebec - FQ is simply too far away to be an immediate threat, and Chitown is right next door.

If I'm a wizard in the Federation of Magic, I'm not going to send out an astral projection to spy and cause mischief to a FQ fort some 1000 miles away (never mind how fast my projection moves), I'm going to send it to the Coalition fort some 50 miles away that is just about to send out another extermination squad with orders to round up my cousin and his family.

I think that a much stronger argument can be made that over the last 50 years sorcerers from the magic zone have been using abilities like astral projection to cause mischief and spy on the Coalition States, and that this repeated experience has caused the CS to invest significant resources into developing countermeasures like the dog boys, psi-stalkers, and Psi-Battalion. In fact it says in WB12 Psyscape pg 144 that the Coalition States is traditionally prejudice against psychics, and it is due to their usefulness and success that has convinced high command to engage in a propaganda campaign to change public perceptions of psychics.

Going to an earlier discussion about psychics in the Quebec military, and the whole "Psychics are seldom given positions in the military or law enforcement" vs the OCC's of the Free Quebec Military % breakdown showing that there are "0% (None)" listed for psychics. To Axelmania's credit, that list on page 34 was only for OCC's, meaning that it is possible that there could be some grunt or other OCC in the Free Quebec military that has some minor physic powers. The list only precludes the possibility of there being a master psychic, like a Mind Melter, or a Burster in the military. However I should also say to Dreicunan's credit, the flavor text around psychics in FQ leads me to believe that their military would not have a psychic training program to help them develop their powers, or develop techniques for using Psionics to deal with other psychic, magical, or supernatural threats like the Coalition States does. I imagine that psychics in the employ of the FQ military are like - just some guy who happened to roll up Resist Fatigue during character generation, and it didn't get caught during their screenings. There might even be some that have 2 or 3 minor powers that managed to get into the military because they have a well connected uncle or something, but even they are likely told to keep their powers to themselves.

[eliakon]

The reason I call it "plot armor" is that Astral/Dream/Teleportation/Summoning stuff tends to be the sort of thing that is, realistically, fundamentally world changing.

A world with the sort of things that magic/psionics/ect provide would, realistically, only superficially resemble 'out world' which is basically what almost every palladium setting is "our world, but with stuff"
The CS is "dystopian future with Nazis" for example.

The issue is that when you start actually looking deeply at what is available... so much of the setting falls apart.
The humble Object Read for example makes in vastly difficult for the ubiquitous criminal networks to exist. Never mind telepathy, or sixth sense, or clairvoyance, or distant vision or...

Which means that I am leery of the idea that we should do deep dives into the nitty gritty of things and assume that everything is always being used at its fullest...
...because doing so leads to chain revisions that basically require rewriting the entire setting into some sort of speculative transhumanisim/fantasy hybrid!

This show up here because with out some sort of psychic ability to protect themselves FQ should, logically fall in no time flat. They have no way to deal with: key people being possessed, which means that their policies can be manipulated at whim by their foes; can't deal with astral spies/sabatours/soldiers/terrorists which means that their forces and population are basically defenseless; have no way of harming or otherwise dealing with an array of monsters and the like that are immune to conventional attacks...
The list of problems gets longer and longer and there is no good solution other than to simply handwave that for some reason all the foes of FQ are out to get it... but not enough to actually DO ANYTHING about it.

As I see it there are two ways to play this.
1) we can play it as written and hold that the setting as written is important enough to not sweat the details
2) we can sweat the details and discard the setting as written

[Axelmania]

Excellent summary DD! Some clarifications...

The idea of the FoM using these tactics is compelling, and actually does fit into the established lore with two exceptions.

First, as Blue Lion pointed out there is no written material describing it, so it isn't really safe to draw any hard conclusions out of these speculations.

I'm not drawing a hard conclusion so much as a probable one. We can't draw any hard conclsions about a lot of likely applications. It never specifically says anywhere that "FoM terrorists fire lightning bolts at CS dairy cattle" for example, so I can't draw a HARD conclusion about that, but inevitably I think it's safe to say that it has happened at least once, and that it happens with a freuency equivalent to its tactical feasability.

The second exception is that there has been no response by the Free Quebec to attempt to establish any countermeasures to this threat. One would think that any protracted campaign of spying and harassment using tactics that they had no defense against would elicit some kind of immune response, forcing Free Quebec to race to find a way to combat it, especially if the harassment was significant enough to sway their policies to the point of distrusting and repressing a portion of their own citizens.

No KNOWN attempt to establish countermeasures. Odds are that there are many specific countermeasures to whatever tactics have been used/observed/understood by the victims, but that the books don't have space to spare to go into those minutiae.

There is the obvious history between the two, but there is also proximity. Which leads me to an in universe explanation for why the Fed of Magic hasn't used Axelmania's tactics against Free Quebec - FQ is simply too far away to be an immediate threat, and Chitown is right next door.

A very valid point. Chi-Town would be a priority target. The idea of FQ receiving such attention is more due to the relative safety of it through lack of countermeasures.

Although, with the ability to fly at 600mph, I don't know how a corporeal Psi-Sword user could reliably catch up to you and stab you, so I don't really know how Psi-Net or Psi-Bat would deal with Astral Projection terrorists who got in and out quickly.

If I'm a wizard in the Federation of Magic, I'm not going to send out an astral projection to spy and cause mischief to a FQ fort some 1000 miles away (never mind how fast my projection moves), I'm going to send it to the Coalition fort some 50 miles away that is just about to send out another extermination squad with orders to round up my cousin and his family.

I asked Google, for an example, of the distance from Mammoth Caves to Drummondville (Mechanicsville in WB20 is near there) and it told me 1,746.9 km which works out to 1085.47 miles, very close to your estimate, so the speed is certainly a factor, come to think of it.

Someone going 767mph would still take somewhere in the realm of 90 minutes to fly that distance, so Astral Projection certainly isn't as "instant" as I instinctively conceive it as being. The duration of the spell isn't particularly impressive, even if you use that duration-doubling spell.

Probably the way to do it would be to have a Circle of Travel take your body to a fortified and well-hidden outpost closer by (say, 70 miles away, so that going over 700mph it only takes you 6 minutes to get there) before doing the AP spell or power.

Probably a greater source of harassment would be from "peaceful" places like Lazlo since Toronto is much closer to Montreal... but it's still around 411 miles from Toronto to Drummondfille so you're still looking at over 30 minutes of Mach-speed flight, which really bites into the duration of AP.

Astral Portals might be a way around this problem though, since they can connect anywhere on Earth to anywhere on the plane, so you could make a portal near FoM, enter, make a portal back to Earth targeting Quebec, then exit.

The difference there I think might be that your astral cord is straddling two portals which, if closed, would probably sever it. Something you wouldn't have to worry about if traveling exclusively through the material plane. On the other hand... having your cord crossing a couple portals in another dimension might be safer than having a thousand-mile cord that anyone might come across and hack at for fun.

Anyone remember what happens if you can't fly back to your body before duration elapses? I assume the cord gets severed and if you're in the Astral Plane you will get lost but I can't remember if anything addressed what happened if you were coexisting with the material plane, since that presumably wouldn't get you lost....