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Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:59 pm
  

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Dungeon Crawler

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Can someone clarify how dragon babies learn news spells?

The stupid confusing boom says they learn spells in the usual ways ( being taught them or the like) then goes on to say up to their level yet give the example that by level 5 they will know spells that are lvl 6 7 and 8. So it gives tbe sense they just poof learn spellslike a mystic and Re limited to spells up to their exp level then breaks that idea.

So how does it fricking work?


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 10:00 pm
  

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Dungeon Crawler

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Can ny hatchling frilled dragon learn spells without limit the same as a line walker or shifter or is it a mystic?


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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 1:39 am
  

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Monk

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Setting aside what I said in the other topic which was based on the raw text…

It looks like the writer meant to say that they can be taught spells by mages as per the teaching/learning rules once they reach level 2. Much like how a LLW can learn spells from being taught them by another mage.

The per level spells look like suggestion to the GM to limit the number of spells the char is able to get is a manageable number per level (for PCs) or how many spells a NPC DH would have at a said level.
---
I would say that the GM should make the player have to search for the spells they want and the mages that will teach them those spells as part of an on going side-quest for the char.
----------
I would also note that the rules about DH magic in RUE are for the DH's presented in RUE.
The rules for DH magic for all the other dragon hatchlings are in the 'PF2:Dragons and gods' sourcebook. The texts governing each type are found in each particular dragon type's listing.

Corrected this so people would stop taking what I said out of the context they were written in. Come on people WT :crane: is this topic about???? :roll:

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Last edited by drewkitty ~..~ on Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:36 am
  

Hero

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drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Setting aside what I said in the other topic which was based on the raw text…

It looks like the writer meant to say that they can be taught spells by mages as per the teaching/learning rules once they reach level 2. Much like how a LLW can learn spells from being taught them by another mage.

The per level spells look like suggestion to the GM to limit the number of spells the char is able to get is a manageable number per level (for PCs) or how many spells a NPC DH would have at a said level.
---
I would say that the GM should make the player have to search for the spells they want and the mages that will teach them those spells as part of an on going side-quest for the char.
----------
I would also note that the rules about DH in RUE are for the DH's presented in RUE.
The rules for all the other dragon hatchlings are in the 'PF2:Dragons and gods' sourcebook. The texts governing each type are found in each particular dragon type's listing.

RUE disagrees with you. Page 158 says to use RUE for skills and level advancement of the hatchlings from other books. That does still leave one wondering if level advancement includes magic spells, since in Dragons and Gods some of the hatchlings had spells at level 1 (Great Horned, Kukulcan, Lo-Dux, Night Stalker, Serpent of the Wind, Thunder Lizard, and Ultucan). It is also a major skill downgrade for the dragons from Dragons and Gods.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:50 pm
  

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Monk

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ONE: ""It looks like the writer meant to say.."" means I am voicing an Opinion about what was meant.
Yes, I actually indicate when I am voicing my opinion if you are reading what I write. Which does say that I will be saying something other then what the RAW might say w/o looking past the words to what the writer meant.
✧Then there was the other hint that I said something totally different in some other concurrent topic about almost the same subject based on the '""raw text"" might also hint for someone that I will be saying something that is my opinion. And go looking for that other topic, Here.

TWO: What is specifically being talked about is the RUE FD DH.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 1:57 pm
  

Explorer

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I always considered RUE Dragon Hatchlings to be able to figure out spells on their own, kind of like a Ley Line Walker or Shifter. They instinctively know and recognize magic. They can also learn spells at anytime from a teacher per the normal rules. (In my games they learn it faster since they are naturally magically inclined)

So anytime (starting at level 2) with a teacher they can learn spells per normal.
At 3rd level they have figured out 2D4+2 spells from levels 1-3 on their own.
At 5th level they have figured out another 2D4+2 spells from levels 3-8 on their own.
After that they figure out 3 additional spells per level from any level equal to their own or less.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 7:44 pm
  

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Dungeon Crawler

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No magic class has can learn any spells by being taught or researched but not above their character level.

One is a spell caster like the shifter and ley line walker and even wizard or one gains magic like the mystic.

it seems to be a example of poor wording. And we know palladium is rittled with bad wording.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 9:27 pm
  

Hero

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drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
ONE: ""It looks like the writer meant to say.."" means I am voicing an Opinion about what was meant.
Yes, I actually indicate when I am voicing my opinion if you are reading what I write. Which does say that I will be saying something other then what the RAW might say w/o looking past the words to what the writer meant.
✧Then there was the other hint that I said something totally different in some other concurrent topic about almost the same subject based on the '""raw text"" might also hint for someone that I will be saying something that is my opinion. And go looking for that other topic, Here.

TWO: What is specifically being talked about is the RUE FD DH.

What are you spouting off about? You said that the rules in RUE only apply to the hatchlings in RUE and that the rest are governed by Dragons and Gods. RUE directly contradicts that and tells you that RUE supercedes those rules for skills and level advancement. Nothing that you said in the other thread changes that you made a claim here that is demonstrably false based on canon rules. If you were presenting a house rule of your own regarding what rules.govern what dragon hatchlings, there was absolutely no indication of that in what you posted.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:49 pm
  

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Knight

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All most all mages can gain spells when they level up, not just mystics gaining spells at a set level does not make it mystic learning as a Leyline walker gains spells as they level up. The diffrence is a mystic is limited to the spells they recieed as part of charter creation and leveling while most mages can learn any spell at any time.
The wording does not seam to indicate or imply any special limit to the number of spells. Some people seam to think that learning spells should be hard or limited.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:54 pm
  

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drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
----------
I would also note that the rules about DH in RUE are for the DH's presented in RUE.
The rules for all the other dragon hatchlings are in the 'PF2:Dragons and gods' sourcebook. The texts governing each type are found in each particular dragon type's listing.

AS was pointed out this is a false statement. The rules in RUE over ride all earlier rules for Rifts.
The Rules for hatchlings in RUE apply to all dragon hatchlings unless told other wise. (RUE was at its core a revamp of the core rules.)

Your claims about stating your opion where a straw man defense to people pointing out your false claim, that RUE dragon rules do not apply to all dragons.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:06 am
  

D-Bee

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Having read through the relevant portion of Dragons & Gods just now (because of the other thread and this one...)

it's seems pretty clear:

The stats for what spells they start with (or dont!) are covered under each Dragon Type. Many start with none but a full understanding of magic, a few start with a few spells (Great Horned). They also intuitively figure out new spells as they gain levels, and can be taught new spells. (LLWs and other classes are like this too, so this seems consistent with non-Mystic spellcasting). Edit: Some of the Hatchlings are missing the "but can learn them/Additional spells are learned with the same ease and quickness of a first level wizard" line. Those Dragons seems to function more like mystics - Nightstalker, for instance, starts with ALL level 1 and 2 spells and gets new spells every other level but does NOT have the "learn new spells" line in their description (for Hatchlings; as Adults they can still pick up additional Magic OCC abilities, and i can see that it IS specifically stated in D&G that all of the magic-capable dragons are capable of doing so as Adults).

As for the skill progression, you use RUE's rules for that regardless (as RUE says) and the same with the experience chart.

I don't see how there's any confusion about it, especially given that there's a VERY specific section at the bottom of each Dragon Description that says plainly "Magic Knowledge of X Dragon Hatchlings" that is its own heading.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:14 am
  

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Monk

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Thank you for not reading what I wrote in the other topic, nor in what the RUE text said.

Since what I wrote…and corrected in this and the other topic for the people who can not follow the context in which those words were said…was narrowly defined to just the RUE DH magic text.

What RUE says, when using the dragons that are detailed in the PF:D&G sourcebook are used in rifts, to convert them to use the RUE Dragon RCC skills and level advancement.
Inversely: I would be expect to use a PF Dragon RCC skills and their exp. table if I imported the RUE dragons to use in PF.

Though that does bring up the final book mentioned in that text. That Rifts WB 25: China 3 Masters of Magic has dragons in it.
It is nice of them to publish the RC3 is named Masters of Magic. But RWB 25 is RC2 Heroes.
Not that it really matters since RC3 has been shelved.

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Last edited by drewkitty ~..~ on Fri Jul 28, 2017 1:11 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:22 am
  

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Dungeon Crawler

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So i am not asking about what it says about magic under the frilled dragon hatchling section.

I am asking about the section under the general section about dragon hatchlings magic.

It comes before the cats eye dragon entry...

And thank you Drewkitty. I was not referencing you. Sorry if i gave that impression.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:29 am
  

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Monk

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All the RU DHs use the same text about DH magic. Page 158 under Player notes. Which, since it is the typical PB ""clear as a bell"" :roll: , lends itself to be read several different ways.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:39 am
  

D-Bee

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VR Dragon wrote:
So i am not asking about what it says about magic under the frilled dragon hatchling section.

I am asking about the section under the general section about dragon hatchlings magic.

It comes before the cats eye dragon entry...


Sure. So, instead of reprinting the same exact text under each Dragon type in RUE, they just printed it once, before ALL of the RUE Hatchlings.

Because they all get the same magic advancement.

The Hatchlings in D&G get the magic advancement as stated in D&G (which looks pretty close to what they had in the RMB, for those that were present, or CB1classic, for those in that book), as Spells are neither skills or an exp table.

I also dont know that i ascribe to Drew's "if you have to use the RUE advancement for D&G hatchlings in Rifts, you must use the PF advancement for RUE dragons in PF"; there's a clear rule that says you must do one thing when importing into Rifts, but there is no rule going the other way (largely because those Dragons simply dont exist on the PF world, likely). It certainly is a completely logical assumption, but it's just that, an assumption. There's nothing stated for certain.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:48 am
  

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Knight

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These rules in Ultimate. Are they introduced within the new species or in a forward for the new species which is being extrapolated to older ones?

Chaing Ku stand out as ones who did not get free spells unless they got an OCC. Unlike the RMB ones.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:53 am
  

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okay since it seems everyone completely and totally missing what is confusing me....


I know my dragon hatchling starts with 3 spells from lvl 1 spells and 3 from lvl 2 spells. No problem there.

Now under dragon magic in general for hatchlings...

starting at lvl 2 I can learn spells, "Spells can be learned by the usual means beginning at level 2", by third level the hatchling will have learned some number of spells from spell lvls 1-3. No problem there.... "The usual means" is figured out or learned from another spell caster directly. Just like any other spell caster who is not a mystic would.

then "and another bunch of spells by lvl 5 from spell levels 3-8. Okay again no problem. Standard spell casters can learn spells from any level with out restrictions.


The hatchling then can learn 3 spells per level thereafter, up to his own level. So now the dragon is a mystic? Why was it possible by lvl 5 to learn spells over level 5 but then the door slams shut and turns the dragon into a mystic and limited to only his level thereafter.

No logic to it. Makes no sense and there in you find my confusion.

Can I learn spells like a real spell caster without limits or am I a mystic and spells just "poof" into my brain when i make a level.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:56 am
  

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At this point I feel the default setup should be..

Thanks for the new dragons, but we will use the old rules.

No changes where needed.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 1:10 am
  

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Monk

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CT….nope didn't say that. I didn't say "must" anywhere in my words about converting the RUE dragons to the PF rules. I did use the words "I would be expect…". Which are words saying I was stating an opinion. So please do not attribute me saying ""this is canon"" to words I said as opinion.

And then you had the audacity to write the ending as if you were claiming the idea that the conversion was your idea and insult me by using the word assumption italicized. I can make an ass of myself without other people helping. :P
*If you didn't know before this, the word 'assumption' has negative connotations which others can take as an insult.

While there is no text saying anything about the RUE dragons not being on the PF world, that does not mean that they are not there. And since RUE was published after PF:D&G, like there was not even a gleam in KS's eye about rewriting the Rifts core book yet at that time, no there isn't any reference about the RUE dragons in the PF:D&G book
-------
Axe
The individual dragon listings refer back to the 'players notes' for their Magic abilities. So neither of the options you stated.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 1:54 am
  

D-Bee

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VR Dragon wrote:
okay since it seems everyone completely and totally missing what is confusing me....


I know my dragon hatchling starts with 3 spells from lvl 1 spells and 3 from lvl 2 spells. No problem there.

Now under dragon magic in general for hatchlings...

starting at lvl 2 I can learn spells, "Spells can be learned by the usual means beginning at level 2", by third level the hatchling will have learned some number of spells from spell lvls 1-3. No problem there.... "The usual means" is figured out or learned from another spell caster directly. Just like any other spell caster who is not a mystic would.

then "and another bunch of spells by lvl 5 from spell levels 3-8. Okay again no problem. Standard spell casters can learn spells from any level with out restrictions.


The hatchling then can learn 3 spells per level thereafter, up to his own level. So now the dragon is a mystic? Why was it possible by lvl 5 to learn spells over level 5 but then the door slams shut and turns the dragon into a mystic and limited to only his level thereafter.

No logic to it. Makes no sense


Uh.. makes complete sense. You ALSO learn spells from leveling up. A LOT of the non-mystic magic classes do. Shifter, for example. They can learn magic at any time from anyone (as long as it is invocation/"spell" magic and not some specialized thing that only certain OCCs can cast)... AND they get spells as they level up. They are similarly limited (they get to pick one spell per level from a list that is unique to shifters, and then one spell of choice from any level up to their current level). This does not override or prevent their ability to learn new spells from teachers/scrolls/etc.

Quote:
and there in you find my confusion.


I have no idea why it was confusing, honestly. The Ley Line Rifter and Shifter are both in the RUE book and both learn spells both ways. Other "Traditional" spellcasters in other books (like Temporal Spellcasters) also learn new spells automatically AND can be taught. I wouldn't say they ALL do (because, like LLW and TWs, some just dont get new spells unless they can find a teacher) but a solid majority do.

Quote:
Can I learn spells like a real spell caster without limits or am I a mystic and spells just "poof" into my brain when i make a level.


In the case of Dragons, it might honestly be as simple as "level up, BAM I KNOW MORE MAGIC BABY" because they are a Dragon. Not because theyre a Mystic style caster but because they are literally made of magic and have an inherent understanding of it so as they level up they just know more.

In the case of the LLR and Shifter, it's assumed that while you're "leveling up" (Advancing from one level to the next) you're continuing your studies and just figure out a few new spells when you level up (which in the case of LLR requires going off to commune with the Ley Lines).

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Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 1:57 am
  

D-Bee

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drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
CT….nope didn't say that. I didn't say "must" anywhere in my words about converting the RUE dragons to the PF rules. I did use the words "I would be expect…". Which are words saying I was stating an opinion. So please do not attribute me saying ""this is canon"" to words I said as opinion.

And then you had the audacity to write the ending as if you were claiming the idea that the conversion was your idea and insult me by using the word assumption italicized. I can make an ass of myself without other people helping. :P
*If you didn't know before this, the word 'assumption' has negative connotations which others can take as an insult.

While there is no text saying anything about the RUE dragons not being on the PF world, that does not mean that they are not there. And since RUE was published after PF:D&G, like there was not even a gleam in KS's eye about rewriting the Rifts core book yet at that time, no there isn't any reference about the RUE dragons in the PF:D&G book
-------
Axe
The individual dragon listings refer back to the 'players notes' for their Magic abilities. So neither of the options you stated.


What are you even on about? I literally have no idea what you're talking about. Back on ignore for you. Removing people from ignore when i came back seems to have been a failed experiment. You've now ALL put yourselves back.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 2:09 am
  

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okay there, that made it click.

I can learn new spells without level limits like any other standard caster (excluding the mystic since they can only learn new spells by leveling and meditating on it).

But when I make a level I gain some spells because I "Figured some out" like the LLW does when he gains a new level.

That is clear as a bell now. Is established by how others magical classes work, and is logical.

I was thinking that form some stupid reason the dragon basically could not learn new spells by being taught and was limited only to spells of his level or less.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 2:17 am
  

D-Bee

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VR Dragon wrote:
okay there, that made it click.

I can learn new spells without level limits like any other standard caster (excluding the mystic since they can only learn new spells by leveling and meditating on it).

But when I make a level I gain some spells because I "Figured some out" like the LLW does when he gains a new level.

That is clear as a bell now. Is established by how others magical classes work, and is logical.

I was thinking that form some stupid reason the dragon basically could not learn new spells by being taught and was limited only to spells of his level or less.


From a game-mechanical standpoint, it's to prevent the GM from spell-starving you completely.

There are some GMs (some of the posters here among them) who go rabid about the "magic is supposed to be super rare and you cant get magic ever no no no" flavor text in the RMB/RUE.

Spellcaster power REALLY depends on available magic. If you give out access to certain high level spells too quickly (though, Ironically, a few classes such as Temporal Wizard can choose them whenever they want) it can REALLY break the game. (Give a low level character access to Talisman and leave him on a Ley Line for a week, and P.P.E. during adventure/combat will simply never, ever be an issue ever again.)

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Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 2:56 am
  

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yeah that I can understand.

I don't honestly play magic user. I have never played a Techno Wizard and seldom had their stuff.

I always preferred psychics... GMs can't take your toys away if they are in your mind.... :mrgreen:

or i like to play big strong loaded MDC types (I hate giant robots.) who just apply enough brute strength to a problem to get through it.

So I have reason to be confused about new classes and stuff I have never played before.

for rifts I pretty much play mutant animals like dog boys or the much better bear boys, a cyber knight once or twice, and a mind melter quite often.

And I never really have been impressed enough by magic or magic users in the past. Hell my gaming group has next to never event went through a rift. which its the whole theme of the damn setting after all. So much wasted potentials.

Sorry if I came off as hostile before.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 1:45 am
  

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Knight

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drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
The individual dragon listings refer back to the 'players notes' for their Magic abilities. So neither of the options you stated.

So I'm reading RUE 158 and it is just a big ball of confusion.

To break down the key statements (omitted specifics to avoid violating copyright)
    1A) they know no spells at first level
    2B) Spells can be learned by the usual means beginning at second level.
    3C) By third level the Hatchling Dragon will have learned XX spells from levels APPLE-BANANA,
    4D) and another YY by level five from levels CAULIFLOWER-DANDELION
    5E) The Hatchling can learn ZZ new spells per level of experience thereafter, up to its own level of experience.

1A is straightforward enough, easy to overlook.

2B is confusing because there really is no "usual means", you have some who can learn spells intuitively (mystics) others who can figure them out on their own (ley line walkers) and those who need to be taught them (Shifters originally, though they got boosted in Ultimate)

3C and 4D are also confusing: does this mean all dragons will have found teachers to teach them that many spells before attaining third? Or does it mean they all manage to figure this out on their own? If it is gradual self-teaching then why no gains at 4th level?

The 4D (5th level) gain in particular is notable because it allows selection 3 levels higher than one's current level, yet if we look at 5E, there's a "up to one's level" restriction. Meaning at levels 6 and 7 you have a lower range of selection than the 5th level.

So a dragon can clearly at some point learn spells higher than its own level, but it's hard to tell if it means they will have found a teacher to give it to them, or if they could figure out 8th level spells immediately upon leaving the 4th level behind.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:19 am
  

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Dungeon Crawler

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Axelmania wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
The individual dragon listings refer back to the 'players notes' for their Magic abilities. So neither of the options you stated.

So I'm reading RUE 158 and it is just a big ball of confusion.

To break down the key statements (omitted specifics to avoid violating copyright)
    1A) they know no spells at first level
    2B) Spells can be learned by the usual means beginning at second level.
    3C) By third level the Hatchling Dragon will have learned XX spells from levels APPLE-BANANA,
    4D) and another YY by level five from levels CAULIFLOWER-DANDELION
    5E) The Hatchling can learn ZZ new spells per level of experience thereafter, up to its own level of experience.

1A is straightforward enough, easy to overlook.

2B is confusing because there really is no "usual means", you have some who can learn spells intuitively (mystics) others who can figure them out on their own (ley line walkers) and those who need to be taught them (Shifters originally, though they got boosted in Ultimate)

3C and 4D are also confusing: does this mean all dragons will have found teachers to teach them that many spells before attaining third? Or does it mean they all manage to figure this out on their own? If it is gradual self-teaching then why no gains at 4th level?

The 4D (5th level) gain in particular is notable because it allows selection 3 levels higher than one's current level, yet if we look at 5E, there's a "up to one's level" restriction. Meaning at levels 6 and 7 you have a lower range of selection than the 5th level.

So a dragon can clearly at some point learn spells higher than its own level, but it's hard to tell if it means they will have found a teacher to give it to them, or if they could figure out 8th level spells immediately upon leaving the 4th level behind.



Its this way...

The usual way means someone teaches them the spell. Buy it from a guild, have a fellow spell caster teacher you, a demon bargains a spell for a favor. So usual way is being taught the spell.

Then when a dragon gains a level of experience they gain 3 spell total of their choice from spell level equal to their level or lower.

Thats pretty much it.

So they can learn higher level spells by being taught them, that is not limited to their level of experience. This is also the usual way.

Dragon is not a mystic thank god.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 12:35 pm
  

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Monk

Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2000 1:01 am
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except that the magic text does not say that they have the ability to cast spells. It only says they have full magic knowledge. (this is the 1st miswording in the text.) As most people know knowledge about something is not the same as having the ability to do something. (could make a comment about our current ham handed PotUS as an example….)

And 'the usual way' is to first to learn/gain the ability to cast spells. Then after that, to learn new spells.

Like I said in my comments in response to Mack's post. The writer should have written down what he meant without using words that didn't mean what he wanted to mean.

So what we have end up with is typical PB rifts ambiguity that causes people to argue.

The comment about numbers of spell at particular levels I am taking as guidelines for GMs to follow if they want to for ether limiting the number of spells they hand out to their player's char or for how many a NPC drag Hatch would have. Not hard limits.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 8:57 pm
  

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Knight

Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:13 pm
Posts: 5850
Yeah the NPC thing makes sense.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 8:45 pm
  

D-Bee

Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2020 8:38 pm
Posts: 1
I just want to know if they gain the O.C.C. PPE that magic users get since it's magic and they gain the magic of magic occs.


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