The CS Is Running Out Of Resources...

[Pepsi Jedi]

I don't think a bunch of dragons coming and invading earth and claiming it for years with humans helpless to take it back necessarily makes it theirs. Same logic for mages.

I don't believe Tolkeen protected Minnesota as many would like to believe. If Tolkeen can't (or won't) prevent 340 Soul Harvesters from living in their capital city, how safe can we reasonably expect their countryside to be? What do we really know about the service (if any) that Tolkeen lent the villages scattered about Minnesota?

The CS does have the right to invade under the pretense of securing the human communities who wanted CS protection. By blocking CS entry into the state, Tolkeen prevented that aid and put these towns at the mercies of all the supernatural horrors that it was unleashing upon the countryside.

Well all of that is categorically false. Especially false is the idea that the CS has the right to invade anyone (particularly since nobody was looking for their protection they were looking to be protected FROM them not BY them), Tolkeen had every right to prevent a hostile foreign nation from trespassing on its lands and killing its citizens and in the end the CS was responsible for any supernatural creatures that were unleashed since it was their murderous campaign that forced their victims to resort to them to defend themselves. You lose all right to criticize someone when your efforts to kill them result in them fighting back with everything that they can to survive. You made the problem and you own all that results from it.

The pretense that Tolkeen has no responsibility for it's own choices and actions is silly. The CS didn't "Make" them do anything. They chose to.

As pointed out repeatedly, they had other options. Tolkeen chose to go evil. Your attempts to blame the CS for the other nation being evil are comical.

As for the CS 'right' to wage war. It goes back to 'Earth being a human planet' and all others being invaders/trespassers.

[eliakon]

I don't think a bunch of dragons coming and invading earth and claiming it for years with humans helpless to take it back necessarily makes it theirs. Same logic for mages.

I don't believe Tolkeen protected Minnesota as many would like to believe. If Tolkeen can't (or won't) prevent 340 Soul Harvesters from living in their capital city, how safe can we reasonably expect their countryside to be? What do we really know about the service (if any) that Tolkeen lent the villages scattered about Minnesota?

The CS does have the right to invade under the pretense of securing the human communities who wanted CS protection. By blocking CS entry into the state, Tolkeen prevented that aid and put these towns at the mercies of all the supernatural horrors that it was unleashing upon the countryside.

Well all of that is categorically false. Especially false is the idea that the CS has the right to invade anyone (particularly since nobody was looking for their protection they were looking to be protected FROM them not BY them), Tolkeen had every right to prevent a hostile foreign nation from trespassing on its lands and killing its citizens and in the end the CS was responsible for any supernatural creatures that were unleashed since it was their murderous campaign that forced their victims to resort to them to defend themselves. You lose all right to criticize someone when your efforts to kill them result in them fighting back with everything that they can to survive. You made the problem and you own all that results from it.

The pretense that Tolkeen has no responsibility for it's own choices and actions is silly. The CS didn't "Make" them do anything. They chose to.

As pointed out repeatedly, they had other options.

So far the options presented seem to be "Leave or Die" and that by staying in their homes they were asking for it.
That sounds suspiciously like the justification used by conquerors throughout history. Oh and its victim blaming. "If they had just left and let me invade their ancestral homelands I wouldn't have had to kill them" is the exact same sort justification as "well if she hadn't been wearing a short skirt I wouldn't have raped her." and it is just as valid (i.e. not at all in the slightest)

Tolkeen chose to go evil. Your attempts to blame the CS for the other nation being evil are comical.

They CS didn't 'make them' go evil true. What the CS did was make them realize that they were going to die unless they found something that would let them fight the CS. And in their search for that they demonstrated the adage about the road to Hell being paved with good intentions.

As for the CS 'right' to wage war. It goes back to 'Earth being a human planet' and all others being invaders/trespassers.

To bad the earth ISNT a human planet.
-We know that there were non-humans on earth at a minimum 10,000 years ago

-Heck we know that at least one two pre-human races hashave survived and possibly two or maybe even more. (Agogwe in Africa and True Sasquatch in Canada)
The idea that some how those things just 'go away' is ludicrous.

-Then there is the fact that North America was the domain of the Native Americans for thousands of years. Who had at least 1 non-human race in their pantheon. The Natives were driven off and dispossessed of North America. The CS is claiming that the European claim of ownership which is shorter than the Dark Ages is stronger than the Dark Ages? I mean how can Europeans claim that they can claim North America for 'humanity' and their claim is valid even though they are stealing the land, and held it for around 250 years... but that D-Bees, some of whom have been here for 300+ years do NOT have a claim? Its ludicrous.

[Blue_Lion]

I don't think a bunch of dragons coming and invading earth and claiming it for years with humans helpless to take it back necessarily makes it theirs. Same logic for mages.

I don't believe Tolkeen protected Minnesota as many would like to believe. If Tolkeen can't (or won't) prevent 340 Soul Harvesters from living in their capital city, how safe can we reasonably expect their countryside to be? What do we really know about the service (if any) that Tolkeen lent the villages scattered about Minnesota?

The CS does have the right to invade under the pretense of securing the human communities who wanted CS protection. By blocking CS entry into the state, Tolkeen prevented that aid and put these towns at the mercies of all the supernatural horrors that it was unleashing upon the countryside.

Well all of that is categorically false. Especially false is the idea that the CS has the right to invade anyone (particularly since nobody was looking for their protection they were looking to be protected FROM them not BY them), Tolkeen had every right to prevent a hostile foreign nation from trespassing on its lands and killing its citizens and in the end the CS was responsible for any supernatural creatures that were unleashed since it was their murderous campaign that forced their victims to resort to them to defend themselves. You lose all right to criticize someone when your efforts to kill them result in them fighting back with everything that they can to survive. You made the problem and you own all that results from it.

I have to disagree on the CS being respawncible for tolkeens actions.
The evil of the CS does not justify the evil of Tolkeen.
The threat of a CS invasion may have been a driving factor in the Tolkeen's leadership to choice to take the dark path for quick power, but it was still a choice that Tolkeen's leadership made.

[Blue_Lion]

I don't think a bunch of dragons coming and invading earth and claiming it for years with humans helpless to take it back necessarily makes it theirs. Same logic for mages.

I don't believe Tolkeen protected Minnesota as many would like to believe. If Tolkeen can't (or won't) prevent 340 Soul Harvesters from living in their capital city, how safe can we reasonably expect their countryside to be? What do we really know about the service (if any) that Tolkeen lent the villages scattered about Minnesota?

The CS does have the right to invade under the pretense of securing the human communities who wanted CS protection. By blocking CS entry into the state, Tolkeen prevented that aid and put these towns at the mercies of all the supernatural horrors that it was unleashing upon the countryside.

You might want to check your facts.
Many of the people in tolkeen where born their.
Significant part of the leadership of Tolkeen was human.
The mages where for the most part are from earth.
Most D-bees when they arrive have no way home so they make homes on rifts earth as refuges and after time in tolkeen where able to earn lands.



There is evidence that dragons and others where on earth a long time ago until the loss of magic drove them away.
Tolkeen was not an enslaved nation before the risk of CS invasion it was a peaceful nation not a dictator ship as you are painting them.

Do elves born on earth not have right to land they have farmed for generations?

Your statement is based in racism claiming that only humans have rights. But our own documents seam to hold no distiction to just humans having right to the pusute of life liberty and the pursuit of happiness's.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world."

Elves have men, and by our own document men are created equal, and have certain unalienable rights.

The cataclysm that has led to many D-bees being trapped here was done by humans.
The books have shown that many of the D-bees did not come here of their own choice and are trapped.
The human sole claim on earth was lost when it chose an action that led to others being trapped on earth.
You can not say those that are as victims of human action have no right to lands, as the lands they claim can be the compensation for loss of their home world. More true when a human led open government allows them to own the land.

The idea that non humans have no rights is racism like that once used to justify enslaving blacks, and the nazi genocide of Jews and gyspisies.

[Blue_Lion]

I don't think a bunch of dragons coming and invading earth and claiming it for years with humans helpless to take it back necessarily makes it theirs. Same logic for mages.

I don't believe Tolkeen protected Minnesota as many would like to believe. If Tolkeen can't (or won't) prevent 340 Soul Harvesters from living in their capital city, how safe can we reasonably expect their countryside to be? What do we really know about the service (if any) that Tolkeen lent the villages scattered about Minnesota?

The CS does have the right to invade under the pretense of securing the human communities who wanted CS protection. By blocking CS entry into the state, Tolkeen prevented that aid and put these towns at the mercies of all the supernatural horrors that it was unleashing upon the countryside.

Well all of that is categorically false. Especially false is the idea that the CS has the right to invade anyone (particularly since nobody was looking for their protection they were looking to be protected FROM them not BY them), Tolkeen had every right to prevent a hostile foreign nation from trespassing on its lands and killing its citizens and in the end the CS was responsible for any supernatural creatures that were unleashed since it was their murderous campaign that forced their victims to resort to them to defend themselves. You lose all right to criticize someone when your efforts to kill them result in them fighting back with everything that they can to survive. You made the problem and you own all that results from it.

The pretense that Tolkeen has no responsibility for it's own choices and actions is silly. The CS didn't "Make" them do anything. They chose to.

As pointed out repeatedly, they had other options. Tolkeen chose to go evil. Your attempts to blame the CS for the other nation being evil are comical.

As for the CS 'right' to wage war. It goes back to 'Earth being a human planet' and all others being invaders/trespassers.

The other options leave, or hide are in of them selves unrealistic to expect a nation to have to do. Tolkeen had 3 cities and many small towns and villages withing its territory, many of which had D-bee or magical citizens. So hiding it from the CS was not likely a feasible option, many in the towns and villages lacked the credits to relocate. In addition they likely felt attached to the land they owned like many humans did and still do, and where willing to fight for what is theirs.

While the CS is not responsible for the actions of Tolkeen, to fight to protect its sovereignty is a fundamental responsibility of all nations. Meaning if Tolkeen failed to do so it failed to do one of its fundamental responsibilities as a nation.


The fact that Tolkeen choice to fight does not mean that the CS is justified in invading another nation, or its actions in doing so where OK.

[guardiandashi]

I don't think a bunch of dragons coming and invading earth and claiming it for years with humans helpless to take it back necessarily makes it theirs. Same logic for mages.

I don't believe Tolkeen protected Minnesota as many would like to believe. If Tolkeen can't (or won't) prevent 340 Soul Harvesters from living in their capital city, how safe can we reasonably expect their countryside to be? What do we really know about the service (if any) that Tolkeen lent the villages scattered about Minnesota?

The CS does have the right to invade under the pretense of securing the human communities who wanted CS protection. By blocking CS entry into the state, Tolkeen prevented that aid and put these towns at the mercies of all the supernatural horrors that it was unleashing upon the countryside.

Well all of that is categorically false. Especially false is the idea that the CS has the right to invade anyone (particularly since nobody was looking for their protection they were looking to be protected FROM them not BY them), Tolkeen had every right to prevent a hostile foreign nation from trespassing on its lands and killing its citizens and in the end the CS was responsible for any supernatural creatures that were unleashed since it was their murderous campaign that forced their victims to resort to them to defend themselves. You lose all right to criticize someone when your efforts to kill them result in them fighting back with everything that they can to survive. You made the problem and you own all that results from it.

I have to disagree on the CS being respawncible for tolkeens actions.
The evil of the CS does not justify the evil of Tolkeen.
The threat of a CS invasion may have been a driving factor in the Tolkeen's leadership to choose to take the dark path for quick power, but it was still a choice that Tolkeen's leadership made.

I am not trying to say that the Coalitions threats to Tolkeen justify Tolkeens actions but they do explain them.

When you step back and look at it from an impartial viewpoint in many ways the Coalitions accusations of tolkeen being "evil" was a self fulfilling prophecy because in many ways they drove them to it in desperation. The fact of the matter is the Coalition IS absolutely an EVIL nation because if the people they are looking aren't human they really do have a shoot first and ask questions later policy. They give humans a little more leeway but if the people they massacre aren't Human, and or strong Coalition allies these Massacres get covered up and shrugged off, or they lie and claim that they "were in fear for their lives" and there are little to no repercussions from their chain of command.

the fact of the matter really comes down to the Coalition creates enemies and threats where they don't have to because of their heavy handed Gestapo style tactics.

[J_cobbers]

I don't think a bunch of dragons coming and invading earth and claiming it for years with humans helpless to take it back necessarily makes it theirs. Same logic for mages.

I don't believe Tolkeen protected Minnesota as many would like to believe. If Tolkeen can't (or won't) prevent 340 Soul Harvesters from living in their capital city, how safe can we reasonably expect their countryside to be? What do we really know about the service (if any) that Tolkeen lent the villages scattered about Minnesota?

The CS does have the right to invade under the pretense of securing the human communities who wanted CS protection. By blocking CS entry into the state, Tolkeen prevented that aid and put these towns at the mercies of all the supernatural horrors that it was unleashing upon the countryside.

Check out the legal principle of adverse possession. Also any original inhabitants of the Twin Cities area were likely killed off in the original apocalypse to the extent that their interest in the territory ceased with their demise. Basically whomever remain, rediscovered, rebuilt or otherwise occupied the territory and developed Tolkeen acquired the legal ownership rights from the perspective of current common law (albiet applying it to a fictional future). And once they established their own government then that basically dictates what 'law' they follow since they are exercising the use of the land. Who said it was the dragons and mages that 'invaded' they could have been involuntarily brought to Rifts Earth, or simply been dimensional explorers (think Columbus), and found the ruins of a destroyed city and decided to build something grand and new. Just because someone isn't human, doesn't mean current legal principles wouldn't apply; person-hood doesn't exclusively apply to humans, we just don't currently have any other sufficiently sentient beings on Earth in the early 21st century, but Rifts Earth has tons.

[Axelmania]

I am going to use you're statement in a real analogy...

what right does Mexico have to invade the united states to "aid" a city that wants Mexican protection? oh right NONE in fact it can and has triggered wars over that type of behavior in the past.

I don't view the city of Tolkeen to have the same rights over the state of Minnesota that Americans have over the US.

We're talking about a monarchy here, not a democracy. The voice of the non-mage human communities in Minnesota's clearly not being heard here, that's why they welcome the CS protection.

I don't want to get too much into IRL politics but a closer (not identical) situation than Mexico invading the States would be the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russians_in_Ukraine situation except that dragons and wizards coming and dominating weak humans in Minnesota is obviously much less benevolent than Ukraine.

the CS was not moving in to provide aid to friendly towns but invading to destroy a neibor kingdom.

That was a necessary second step after Tolkeen broke off diplomatic attempts and starting confronting any CS in the wilderness with lethal force. The CS isn't mandated to only defend themselves, they can attack the aggressors interfering with the securing of non-magical human wilderness communities in Minnesota.

Nothing in the nature of the CS gives it special rights to freely go in and do what it wants in another nation the CS is not a civil relife orgnization. It is xenophobic terrorist nation based on WWII Nazi regime.

The CS has the right to come to aid human communities in Minnesota, there are those who welcome them, they should have more say than some foreign wizard-king colluding with dragons.

The CS was also investigating terrorists and assassins in Minnesota when Tolkeen threatened them. I see no indication that the CS ever attacked Tolkeen itself after Joseph 1's assassination but they decided it wasn't okay for CS to raid towns during their investigation.

These were probably towns full of vampires and shifters using entities to possess people.

Your statement that they have the right to give aid to towns is like saying that issis has the right to come in US and provide support to Muslims that are persecuted by Christians.

I don't see it like that. Christians aren't actually enforcing monarchies in the US to rule over muslims (in spite of how recurring surnames in elections might give a different impression), they're participating in a democracy which muslims also participate in.

Well all of that is categorically false. Especially false is the idea that the CS has the right to invade anyone (particularly since nobody was looking for their protection they were looking to be protected FROM them not BY them)

You are obviously opting to ignore the examples we have of Minnesotan communities seeking CS protection, like Hogswaller on Sedition 115 or Vosverg on Sedition 122, and you can see CS Sympathizers marked with small dots on page 114.

I sort of wish KS had done a zoomed-in version of this with more distinctive markings (like the stars skeleton graveyards got) and maybe numbered them and given all their names on a glossary. CS Sympathizer towns are my prime interest in this map, for some reason where a bunch of bots died is considered more interesting...

Tolkeen had every right to prevent a hostile foreign nation from trespassing on its lands and killing its citizens

Sedition 101 doesn't mention anything about the CS harming Tolkeen citizens in 70 PA's pursuit of Joseph's assassins, only that Tolkeen claimed it was 'their territory'.

in the end the CS was responsible for any supernatural creatures that were unleashed since it was their murderous campaign that forced their victims to resort to them to defend themselves. You lose all right to criticize someone when your efforts to kill them result in them fighting back with everything that they can to survive. You made the problem and you own all that results from it.

They only obliterated 6 towns, doesn't mean they necessarily murdered anyone in them. "One of the most bloody purges in CS history" in 60 PA refers to what happened in the 'Burbs, not Minnesota.

All we know that happened in Minnesota in 60 PA from the CS:

6 villages obliterated
several others raided
people interrogated and threatened
property vandalized

We don't know if these villages were even part of the Kingdom of Tolkeen. The way "Kingdom of Tolkeen" is comically put in quotes implies that it really was a faux-kingdom at that point. KoT isn't put in quotes in 71 PA so I guess you could consider them established at that opint.

The problem here is that vandalizing property, threatening people, raiding villages, or even obliterating them, aren't necessarily bad things if they were deserved actions. We don't know whether or not they were, so the level of legitimacy CS actions had at that time has a lot of flexibility for GM interpretation.

Even if the 6 villages (or the threatened people) were not involved in the plot, they could have still been very evil and deserving of CS acts against them.

Many of the people in tolkeen where born their.
Significant part of the leadership of Tolkeen was human.
The mages where for the most part are from earth.

That's a wonderful meritocracy right there, but mundane humans unable to prove their worth by mastering magic might dislike mages ruling over them and be suspicious about how much free government could exist with magic and unfettered psionics involved in possibly swaying opinions.

Most D-bees when they arrive have no way home so they make homes on rifts earth as refuges and after time in tolkeen where able to earn lands.

Did the ones who gave them land (where's this mentioned?) necessarily have the rights to that land?

There is evidence that dragons and others where on earth a long time ago until the loss of magic drove them away.

They explicitly were (Rifts Africa) but I don't really care, they were supernatural invaders then as they are now.

Tolkeen was not an enslaved nation before the risk of CS invasion it was a peaceful nation not a dictator ship as you are painting them.

A monarchy may not necessarily be a dictatorship, it can even be democratic (like England) but I need to be shown evidence of that to believe otherwise. I'm inherently suspicious of any "kingdom" on the planet. In all fairness the CS being an "empire" isn't any better, but that just means we can look at them with equal footing.

Do elves born on earth not have right to land they have farmed for generations?

That depends: who owned the lands they were farming? Were they paid in land rights for farming services provides to the legal owners?

Your statement is based in racism claiming that only humans have rights. But our own documents seam to hold no distiction to just humans having right to the pusute of life liberty and the pursuit of happiness's.

Incorrect, I'm all for possibly extending rights to non-humans, just not necessarily at the expense of potentially depriving humans of land rights under unfair conditions.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world."

Elves have men, and by our own document men are created equal, and have certain unalienable rights.

"Men" was written indicating humans, not males of other species. Humans and Elves don't necessarily have the same "Creator" either. How many PF races were made by the Old Ones again?

The cataclysm that has led to many D-bees being trapped here was done by humans.

I'm sure supernatural creatures played a hand in that, and I think the CS believes that even more strongly than I do.

The books have shown that many of the D-bees did not come here of their own choice and are trapped.

Nobody is trapped on Rifts Earth, there's millions of ways in and out.

The human sole claim on earth was lost when it chose an action that led to others being trapped on earth.

If my government chooses to attack another country and that country sends soldiers who burn down my home, that doesn't mean it was right to burn down my home, as I don't necessarily support my government.

You can not say those that are as victims of human action have no right to lands, as the lands they claim can be the compensation for loss of their home world. More true when a human led open government allows them to own the land.

The only Rifts I know of that actually suck you into them are the ones artificially created by the mages in Tolkeen. Natural Rifts generally do not do that, so the people who came here accidentally probably wandered into an open rift out of curiosity or accident. Humans aren't to blame for that.

The idea that non humans have no rights is racism like that once used to justify enslaving blacks, and the nazi genocide of Jews and gyspisies.

Please stop with the 'no rights' stuff, I think D-Bees deserve rights, I just recognize that rights are declarations by civilizations so those who don't have them must be endowed with them through revisions.

We can talk about ought-tos, of course.

The CS can (and does) show some tolerence of D-Bees, like how it allows some to live as slaves to serve human interests.

If they kept at that for a while I believe human compassion would win out once it had securely taken back the planet.

any original inhabitants of the Twin Cities area were likely killed off in the original apocalypse to the extent that their interest in the territory ceased with their demise.

In that case it would default to families or other benefactors, or the US government if none could be located.

The closest thing to that right now is the CS since New Navy and Republicans are in hiding.

Basically whomever remain, rediscovered, rebuilt or otherwise occupied the territory and developed Tolkeen acquired the legal ownership rights from the perspective of current common law (albiet applying it to a fictional future).

Those laws do not apply in Minnesota.

And once they established their own government then that basically dictates what 'law' they follow since they are exercising the use of the land. Who said it was the dragons and mages that 'invaded' they could have been involuntarily brought to Rifts Earth, or simply been dimensional explorers (think Columbus), and found the ruins of a destroyed city and decided to build something grand and new.

Dragons could have left if they came here accidentally, they have dimensional teleport as a racial ability, and they can easily fly to uninhabited locations and survive without food.

I don't oppose them lurking around if no humans are about but they should politely move elsewhere if humans want to be there, and stay out of humanity's way.

Instead of, say, eating them.

Just because someone isn't human, doesn't mean current legal principles wouldn't apply; person-hood doesn't exclusively apply to humans, we just don't currently have any other sufficiently sentient beings on Earth in the early 21st century, but Rifts Earth has tons.

Personhood doesn't mean you can just come and take someone's land.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I don't think a bunch of dragons coming and invading earth and claiming it for years with humans helpless to take it back necessarily makes it theirs. Same logic for mages.

I don't believe Tolkeen protected Minnesota as many would like to believe. If Tolkeen can't (or won't) prevent 340 Soul Harvesters from living in their capital city, how safe can we reasonably expect their countryside to be? What do we really know about the service (if any) that Tolkeen lent the villages scattered about Minnesota?

The CS does have the right to invade under the pretense of securing the human communities who wanted CS protection. By blocking CS entry into the state, Tolkeen prevented that aid and put these towns at the mercies of all the supernatural horrors that it was unleashing upon the countryside.

Well all of that is categorically false. Especially false is the idea that the CS has the right to invade anyone (particularly since nobody was looking for their protection they were looking to be protected FROM them not BY them), Tolkeen had every right to prevent a hostile foreign nation from trespassing on its lands and killing its citizens and in the end the CS was responsible for any supernatural creatures that were unleashed since it was their murderous campaign that forced their victims to resort to them to defend themselves. You lose all right to criticize someone when your efforts to kill them result in them fighting back with everything that they can to survive. You made the problem and you own all that results from it.

The pretense that Tolkeen has no responsibility for it's own choices and actions is silly. The CS didn't "Make" them do anything. They chose to.

As pointed out repeatedly, they had other options.

So far the options presented seem to be "Leave or Die"

I've listed off major options repeatedly. It baffles me that they're not being read, but here we go again for clarity.

1) Yes, LEAVE. Bail out. Relocate. Don't be where, the CS will kill you. As a subset of "LEAVE" is "HIDE" Which we know can be done magically in multiple different ways, as we have magic cities on rifts earth that pull it off with in a few 100 miles of the CS. So we know it can be done.
Is it an awesome option? no, but it is a 100% VALID option. Options don't have to be awesome to be valid. Had they left. They'd still be alive.

2) Stay and fight, but remain "Good' Do not descend into evil. Don't ally with Demons and all maner of dark forces. Don't give your military to multiple generals of Evil alignment. In this aspect, they'd need to vote out or remove King Creed, as he'd gone evil too and wanted war. But it WAS AN OPTION. One they COULD have chosen.
Now.. they'd still die. But they wouldn't have become exactly what the CS accused them of.

3) Stay and fight, but embrace evil. Which is the option that tolkeen went with.

Yes, Tolkeen had other options. Two or three (Depending if you consider 'hide' it's own option or part of 'LEAVE'.

You.. and others seem to be under the impression an 'option' must be "WIN" to be an option. It's not. It never "HAS" to be. Worlds are not 'fair'. There's never a 50/50 fight. Tolkeen's options were limited and some of them were crummy but they ---were options---

If your options are "Leave" "Stay and die heroes" or "Stay and die villians' Those are THREE OPTIONS. Tolkeen chose the last one. That's on THEM. Not the CS.

and that by staying in their homes they were asking for it.

There's a difference between "Asking for it"

And "Knowing obliteration is coming and staying anyway"

if you know you'll get killed if you stay, and you can run, yet don't, you're complicit in your death. It's he same thing as going "This guy is going to shoot a gun through this door in 5 minutes. If you're standing infront of the door. you'll be shot and killed. Then the person refuses to move.

Yes the other guy pulled the trigger, but if you knew it was coming and refused to get out of the way, you're partially to blame for your own death.

That sounds suspiciously like the justification used by conquerors throughout history.

The CS had no interest in cconquering them. They wanted Tolkeen gone. Conquer would imply you keep the people after. You may have meant 'invading' armies through out history?

Oh and its victim blaming. "If they had just left and let me invade their ancestral homelands I wouldn't have had to kill them" is the exact same sort justification as "well if she hadn't been wearing a short skirt I wouldn't have raped her." and it is just as valid (i.e. not at all in the slightest)

That's not what's being said at all. It's more like "Hey a forest fire is coming. If you stay you'll die" And the person staying anyway. The fire comes, and the fire kills them. Yes the 'fire' killed them, but the lack of self preservation lead to it. If he'd simply run, he would have lived.

In this case -everyone- told Tolkeen they had no chance. That to stay and fight, was to die.

Tolkeen chose to stay. They died. They ARE responsible for their own actions.

Tolkeen chose to go evil. Your attempts to blame the CS for the other nation being evil are comical.

They CS didn't 'make them' go evil true. What the CS did was make them realize that they were going to die unless they found something that would let them fight the CS.

They were going to die anyway. As proven by the fact they DID die anyway. Even after choosing to go evil.

And as always. "not be around when the dudes come to kill you" is an option that was not taken.

And in their search for that they demonstrated the adage about the road to Hell being paved with good intentions.

I'm not sure that's quite apt. But they sure opened the gates and let demons out and then armed them... so...

As for the CS 'right' to wage war. It goes back to 'Earth being a human planet' and all others being invaders/trespassers.

To bad the earth ISNT a human planet.

*Looks around* Could have fooled me.

-We know that there were non-humans on earth at a minimum 10,000 years ago

Cite your source, on inhuman civlizations on earth please?

-Heck we know that at least one two pre-human races hashave survived and possibly two or maybe even more. (Agogwe in Africa and True Sasquatch in Canada)

Can I have page numbers that state this please? Every time this sort of thing comes up, claims are made but when the books are opened they say different. I'd like to check myself if possible.

The idea that some how those things just 'go away' is ludicrous.

-Then there is the fact that North America was the domain of the Native Americans for thousands of years.

Native American HUMANS. yes?

Who had at least 1 non-human race in their pantheon. The Natives were driven off and dispossessed of North America.

There's still native americans in Rifts. They got an entire book didn't they?

The CS is claiming that the European claim of ownership which is shorter than the Dark Ages is stronger than the Dark Ages?

The CS claim that earth is a human planet. Native Americans are humans. it's stated that there's no race (human skin color) bias in the CS. Humanity, all humanity has legacy claim on earth.

I mean how can Europeans claim that they can claim North America for 'humanity' and their claim is valid even though they are stealing the land, and held it for around 250 years... but that D-Bees, some of whom have been here for 300+ years do NOT have a claim? Its ludicrous.

Because the CS don't rule out other humans like you seem to be doing?

The CS don't claim "Euro rights" they claim HUMAN RIGHTS. they're different.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I don't think a bunch of dragons coming and invading earth and claiming it for years with humans helpless to take it back necessarily makes it theirs. Same logic for mages.

I don't believe Tolkeen protected Minnesota as many would like to believe. If Tolkeen can't (or won't) prevent 340 Soul Harvesters from living in their capital city, how safe can we reasonably expect their countryside to be? What do we really know about the service (if any) that Tolkeen lent the villages scattered about Minnesota?

The CS does have the right to invade under the pretense of securing the human communities who wanted CS protection. By blocking CS entry into the state, Tolkeen prevented that aid and put these towns at the mercies of all the supernatural horrors that it was unleashing upon the countryside.

Well all of that is categorically false. Especially false is the idea that the CS has the right to invade anyone (particularly since nobody was looking for their protection they were looking to be protected FROM them not BY them), Tolkeen had every right to prevent a hostile foreign nation from trespassing on its lands and killing its citizens and in the end the CS was responsible for any supernatural creatures that were unleashed since it was their murderous campaign that forced their victims to resort to them to defend themselves. You lose all right to criticize someone when your efforts to kill them result in them fighting back with everything that they can to survive. You made the problem and you own all that results from it.

The pretense that Tolkeen has no responsibility for it's own choices and actions is silly. The CS didn't "Make" them do anything. They chose to.

As pointed out repeatedly, they had other options. Tolkeen chose to go evil. Your attempts to blame the CS for the other nation being evil are comical.

As for the CS 'right' to wage war. It goes back to 'Earth being a human planet' and all others being invaders/trespassers.

The other options leave, or hide are in of them selves unrealistic to expect a nation to have to do.

Not at all. When the options are "Leave, hide, or die" Then one would think taking the least objectionable choice is very realistic.

You leave or hide.

Or you die.

If you're at McDonalds and you don't carry a gun and someone comes in with a shot gun and points at you andd goes "LEAVE OR DIE!!"

And you go "Screw you I'm eating my burger. It's a free country. I don't have to leave if I don't want to!"

You're technically correct. Right up till he shoots and kills you. You're "right' That it's not a NICE option you were left with. Leaving or dieing, but you made your choice. To stay and die.

If someone claimed "It WAS a free country, he shouldn't have to leave" Technically they'd be right. You'd still be dead. Realisticly you should have gotten out of that McDonalds.

Same thing with Tolkeen. "Leave or die!" "You can't make me! MUAHAHAHAHAHA DEMONS! Oh crap we're dead"

Tolkeen had 3 cities and many small towns and villages withing its territory, many of which had D-bee or magical citizens. So hiding it from the CS was not likely a feasible option, many in the towns and villages lacked the credits to relocate.

MAGIC. Tolkeen was a sizable magic 'nation' (State). They had the ability. how do we know? Other magical 'nations(States/cities) have done it, IN RIFTS EARTH, only a few 100 miles away. It is feasible. As there's MULTIPLE OTHER CITIES/NATIONS that do exactly that.

They could have consolidated their people. Taken in the people from the outlaying communities and done it. They had military build up for YEARS. Hiding or relocating instead is fully valid.

In addition they likely felt attached to the land they owned like many humans did and still do, and where willing to fight for what is theirs.

I'm sure they did. It doesn't change the fact that they --had multiple options--. Pride and possessiveness has gotten people killed since there were people killing one another. For SURE.

In this case, Tolkeen CHOSE to die. And that's my over all point. people act like they didn't have other options. They DID. They just chose not to take them. That's on THEM

While the CS is not responsible for the actions of Tolkeen, to fight to protect its sovereignty is a fundamental responsibility of all nations. Meaning if Tolkeen failed to do so it failed to do one of its fundamental responsibilities as a nation.

Fighting a battle you know you'll die, to gain nothing, isn't a fundamental responsibility. Tolkeen didn't fight to save anyone's life. They didn't fight to make a point. They chose to fight out of HATE for the CS. (The books are clear on this.) They chose to go evil. It was pride.

If they could have won, if they could have stopped the 'evil' of the CS it'd be one thing. They couldn't. Everyone told them this. Everyone. They didn't care. They decided to go evil and up the ante and still didn't come close. The CS is that big. That powerful (Realitivly) The CS Broke EVEN after the war, with Tolkeen utterly destroyed. Worse, the CS actually were 'stronger' after the war, because the people that had been IN the war, had become vetrans (Higher level)

So the war on tolkeen not only didn't 'Hurt' the CS. It actually STRENGHTENED the CS

There was no 'point' for tolkeen to be in the war, other... than to die.

"fight and die" for no REASOn.. is a stupid choice. No matter who you are.

if it was a delaying action to get people to safty. Sure. If it was to stop evil. Sure. But they wern't and they couldn't. They were told by people in the know. people praised in the MEGAVERSE for their intelligence and wisdom. You cannot win. You will ALL Die.

And they did. Senselessly. For nothing.

The fact that Tolkeen choice to fight does not mean that the CS is justified in invading another nation, or its actions in doing so where OK.

The CS was justified in invading the nation, because the two nations were fundimentally opposed in government and society. This, becomes acute, when tolkeen was an EVIL nation of dangerous people.

Thus the invasion and destruction. If Canada suddenly was full of psychotic nazi's that could come across the lake and blow my town off the face of the earth. Then the US would be jusitifed in going in first to stop that from happening.

When the CS went to war. Tolkeen ___WAS___ An evil nation of magic users. They'd -justified- the fear and invasion, due to their actions.

And that is the irony.

The CS thought they were a nation of evil magic users, and must be destroyed, because they were a threat
So Tolkeen BECAME the city of Evil magic users, and a threat.... which in turn made the CS's fears... reality...

And were destroyed for BEING that city of Evil Magic Users.

Had they relocated they'd be alive. Perhaps bitter due to the forced relocation, but they'd be ALIVE to be bitter about it.

[Blue_Lion]

And we have a swing and a miss.

He says native American include at least 1 non-human race and you say it is just native American humans. You never addressed what he said directly.

The CS do rule out other intelligent self aware races that are trapped on Rifts earth do to human action.


Note looking around here when you know he is talking about rifts earth, is pointless.

[eliakon]

I don't think a bunch of dragons coming and invading earth and claiming it for years with humans helpless to take it back necessarily makes it theirs. Same logic for mages.

I don't believe Tolkeen protected Minnesota as many would like to believe. If Tolkeen can't (or won't) prevent 340 Soul Harvesters from living in their capital city, how safe can we reasonably expect their countryside to be? What do we really know about the service (if any) that Tolkeen lent the villages scattered about Minnesota?

The CS does have the right to invade under the pretense of securing the human communities who wanted CS protection. By blocking CS entry into the state, Tolkeen prevented that aid and put these towns at the mercies of all the supernatural horrors that it was unleashing upon the countryside.

Well all of that is categorically false. Especially false is the idea that the CS has the right to invade anyone (particularly since nobody was looking for their protection they were looking to be protected FROM them not BY them), Tolkeen had every right to prevent a hostile foreign nation from trespassing on its lands and killing its citizens and in the end the CS was responsible for any supernatural creatures that were unleashed since it was their murderous campaign that forced their victims to resort to them to defend themselves. You lose all right to criticize someone when your efforts to kill them result in them fighting back with everything that they can to survive. You made the problem and you own all that results from it.

The pretense that Tolkeen has no responsibility for it's own choices and actions is silly. The CS didn't "Make" them do anything. They chose to.

As pointed out repeatedly, they had other options.

So far the options presented seem to be "Leave or Die"

I've listed off major options repeatedly. It baffles me that they're not being read, but here we go again for clarity.

1) Yes, LEAVE. Bail out. Relocate. Don't be where, the CS will kill you. As a subset of "LEAVE" is "HIDE" Which we know can be done magically in multiple different ways, as we have magic cities on rifts earth that pull it off with in a few 100 miles of the CS. So we know it can be done.
Is it an awesome option? no, but it is a 100% VALID option. Options don't have to be awesome to be valid. Had they left. They'd still be alive.

2) Stay and fight, but remain "Good' Do not descend into evil. Don't ally with Demons and all maner of dark forces. Don't give your military to multiple generals of Evil alignment. In this aspect, they'd need to vote out or remove King Creed, as he'd gone evil too and wanted war. But it WAS AN OPTION. One they COULD have chosen.
Now.. they'd still die. But they wouldn't have become exactly what the CS accused them of.

3) Stay and fight, but embrace evil. Which is the option that tolkeen went with.

Yes, Tolkeen had other options. Two or three (Depending if you consider 'hide' it's own option or part of 'LEAVE'.

You.. and others seem to be under the impression an 'option' must be "WIN" to be an option. It's not. It never "HAS" to be. Worlds are not 'fair'. There's never a 50/50 fight. Tolkeen's options were limited and some of them were crummy but they ---were options---

If your options are "Leave" "Stay and die heroes" or "Stay and die villians' Those are THREE OPTIONS. Tolkeen chose the last one. That's on THEM. Not the CS.

Yes, so "Leave" or "Die"
Like I said "Its her fault I raped her"

and that by staying in their homes they were asking for it.

There's a difference between "Asking for it"

And "Knowing obliteration is coming and staying anyway"

if you know you'll get killed if you stay, and you can run, yet don't, you're complicit in your death. It's he same thing as going "This guy is going to shoot a gun through this door in 5 minutes. If you're standing infront of the door. you'll be shot and killed. Then the person refuses to move.

Yes the other guy pulled the trigger, but if you knew it was coming and refused to get out of the way, you're partially to blame for your own death.

That sounds suspiciously like the justification used by conquerors throughout history.

The CS had no interest in cconquering them. They wanted Tolkeen gone. Conquer would imply you keep the people after. You may have meant 'invading' armies through out history?

Oh and its victim blaming. "If they had just left and let me invade their ancestral homelands I wouldn't have had to kill them" is the exact same sort justification as "well if she hadn't been wearing a short skirt I wouldn't have raped her." and it is just as valid (i.e. not at all in the slightest)

That's not what's being said at all. It's more like "Hey a forest fire is coming. If you stay you'll die" And the person staying anyway. The fire comes, and the fire kills them. Yes the 'fire' killed them, but the lack of self preservation lead to it. If he'd simply run, he would have lived.

In this case -everyone- told Tolkeen they had no chance. That to stay and fight, was to die.

Tolkeen chose to stay. They died. They ARE responsible for their own actions.

No you are STILL saying that it is the fault of the victim that they were a victim
That is now, and is ALWAYS false. It is the fault of the aggressor. The rapist is responsible, never the raped. Same thing here.

Tolkeen chose to go evil. Your attempts to blame the CS for the other nation being evil are comical.

They CS didn't 'make them' go evil true. What the CS did was make them realize that they were going to die unless they found something that would let them fight the CS.

They were going to die anyway. As proven by the fact they DID die anyway. Even after choosing to go evil.

And as always. "not be around when the dudes come to kill you" is an option that was not taken.

Again, blaming the victim does not absolve the victimizer.

And in their search for that they demonstrated the adage about the road to Hell being paved with good intentions.

I'm not sure that's quite apt. But they sure opened the gates and let demons out and then armed them... so...

As for the CS 'right' to wage war. It goes back to 'Earth being a human planet' and all others being invaders/trespassers.

To bad the earth ISNT a human planet.

*Looks around* Could have fooled me.

Obviously

-We know that there were non-humans on earth at a minimum 10,000 years ago

Cite your source, on inhuman civlizations on earth please?

-Heck we know that at least one two pre-human races hashave survived and possibly two or maybe even more. (Agogwe in Africa and True Sasquatch in Canada)

Can I have page numbers that state this please? Every time this sort of thing comes up, claims are made but when the books are opened they say different. I'd like to check myself if possible.

1] Agogwe. Africa page 117 Australopithecines: which puts them around 2.9 to 3.9 million years old

2] Pucara Red Giants South America 2 page 52: they are said to be native to earth, and either evolved here or emigrated millennia before Atlantis rose. And Atlanitis FELL 15,000 years ago never mind when it rose. Their civilization predates the arrival of humans on the continent.

3] Ewaipanomas South America 1 page 102: Rifted in 15,000 years ago

4] Tai Shan Chun, Demon Regent of the 7th Yama Kingdom. Rifts China 1 page 38: The Yama kings run the hells for human souls and ONLY human souls they are of special note because as far as can be told they exist solely to process souls from this Earth. Tai Shun Chun is 87,000 years old and thus predates the known use of fire by humans

5] True Sasquatch Rifts Canada page 162. They are explicitly stone age ancestors of humanity, but are NOT humans.

6] Spirit Sasquatch Canada page 160 These supernatural beings were known to the Native Americans for centuries before the first white men came to the continent. (Which would be the 10th century Point Rosee Norse colony at the latest Giving an absolute minimum time of at least the 8th century.

7] Ogogpogo Canada page 157 Dragons trapped here 15,000 years ago.

8] She Who Walks The Circle Spirit West page 180
-She is a Native American human who becomes Deified. Thus demonstrating that at least one of the deities has a valid claim to live on Earth, and she would have the right to invite her friends and family to live with her.
-She also demonstrates that the Pantheon worshiped existed prior to the coming of the rifts. A pantheon that includes several non-human races (Nunnhei, Otoni, Two-FacedStar-People, Man-Eagles)

9) Nunnehi Spirit West page 150 have visited the earth for at least 20,000 years.

10) Man-Eagles Spirit West page 108. They are monsters yes... but they existed well before the CotR since the legendary hero mentioned is an actual real world legend. Thus for that legendary hero to have really lived and done what he did, they would have to have had their (wicked) civilization on Earth for thousands of years

I could go on and on... but that should be a good sample, though if you need more examples I can get you more. Heck there is a thread right now that is doing nothing but collecting this information.
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=151882

The idea that some how those things just 'go away' is ludicrous.

-Then there is the fact that North America was the domain of the Native Americans for thousands of years.

Native American HUMANS. yes?

Who shared it with at least 2 other races, the Nunnhei and the True Sasquatch, so the answer is "No"

Who had at least 1 non-human race in their pantheon. The Natives were driven off and dispossessed of North America.

There's still native americans in Rifts. They got an entire book didn't they?

And the CS recognizes the right of them, their magic, their gods, their spirits, and their non-human allies to exist?

The CS is claiming that the European claim of ownership which is shorter than the Dark Ages is stronger than the Dark Ages?

The CS claim that earth is a human planet. Native Americans are humans. it's stated that there's no race (human skin color) bias in the CS. Humanity, all humanity has legacy claim on earth.

To bad the Native Americans are not as racist as the CS. The Native Americans explicitly endorse and accept things that the CS officially and explicitly rejects. They claim that the Earth should be shared with, at a minimum, the races in their pantheons. That magic is natural. That the spirits have a right to exist on this world as a natural part of it. Since the CS rejects all that, it is sophistry to try and claim that the CS is embracing the Native Americans when they don't. Everyone knows the CS would never accept the Natives and would destroy them as a magic using group... for doing what they have done for longer than people like the CS or other "westerners" have existed to impose their ways.

I mean how can Europeans claim that they can claim North America for 'humanity' and their claim is valid even though they are stealing the land, and held it for around 250 years... but that D-Bees, some of whom have been here for 300+ years do NOT have a claim? Its ludicrous.

Because the CS don't rule out other humans like you seem to be doing?

The CS rules out any human that does not agree with their particular rules.

The CS don't claim "Euro rights" they claim HUMAN RIGHTS. they're different.

The problem is that to do so they have to cherry pick the facts and selectively ignore details that are inconvenient. Like the fact that it is NOT a human planet. That they are NOT the spokespeople for "humanity". That their claims require rejecting the prior claims of others.

[Blue_Lion]

I don't think a bunch of dragons coming and invading earth and claiming it for years with humans helpless to take it back necessarily makes it theirs. Same logic for mages.

I don't believe Tolkeen protected Minnesota as many would like to believe. If Tolkeen can't (or won't) prevent 340 Soul Harvesters from living in their capital city, how safe can we reasonably expect their countryside to be? What do we really know about the service (if any) that Tolkeen lent the villages scattered about Minnesota?

The CS does have the right to invade under the pretense of securing the human communities who wanted CS protection. By blocking CS entry into the state, Tolkeen prevented that aid and put these towns at the mercies of all the supernatural horrors that it was unleashing upon the countryside.

Well all of that is categorically false. Especially false is the idea that the CS has the right to invade anyone (particularly since nobody was looking for their protection they were looking to be protected FROM them not BY them), Tolkeen had every right to prevent a hostile foreign nation from trespassing on its lands and killing its citizens and in the end the CS was responsible for any supernatural creatures that were unleashed since it was their murderous campaign that forced their victims to resort to them to defend themselves. You lose all right to criticize someone when your efforts to kill them result in them fighting back with everything that they can to survive. You made the problem and you own all that results from it.

The pretense that Tolkeen has no responsibility for it's own choices and actions is silly. The CS didn't "Make" them do anything. They chose to.

As pointed out repeatedly, they had other options. Tolkeen chose to go evil. Your attempts to blame the CS for the other nation being evil are comical.

As for the CS 'right' to wage war. It goes back to 'Earth being a human planet' and all others being invaders/trespassers.

The other options leave, or hide are in of them selves unrealistic to expect a nation to have to do.

Not at all. When the options are "Leave, hide, or die" Then one would think taking the least objectionable choice is very realistic.

You leave or hide.

Or you die.

If you're at McDonalds and you don't carry a gun and someone comes in with a shot gun and points at you andd goes "LEAVE OR DIE!!"

And you go "Screw you I'm eating my burger. It's a free country. I don't have to leave if I don't want to!"

You're technically correct. Right up till he shoots and kills you. You're "right' That it's not a NICE option you were left with. Leaving or dieing, but you made your choice. To stay and die.

If someone claimed "It WAS a free country, he shouldn't have to leave" Technically they'd be right. You'd still be dead. Realisticly you should have gotten out of that McDonalds.

Same thing with Tolkeen. "Leave or die!" "You can't make me! MUAHAHAHAHAHA DEMONS! Oh crap we're dead"

Tolkeen had 3 cities and many small towns and villages withing its territory, many of which had D-bee or magical citizens. So hiding it from the CS was not likely a feasible option, many in the towns and villages lacked the credits to relocate.

MAGIC. Tolkeen was a sizable magic 'nation' (State). They had the ability. how do we know? Other magical 'nations(States/cities) have done it, IN RIFTS EARTH, only a few 100 miles away. It is feasible. As there's MULTIPLE OTHER CITIES/NATIONS that do exactly that.

They could have consolidated their people. Taken in the people from the outlaying communities and done it. They had military build up for YEARS. Hiding or relocating instead is fully valid.

In addition they likely felt attached to the land they owned like many humans did and still do, and where willing to fight for what is theirs.

I'm sure they did. It doesn't change the fact that they --had multiple options--. Pride and possessiveness has gotten people killed since there were people killing one another. For SURE.

In this case, Tolkeen CHOSE to die. And that's my over all point. people act like they didn't have other options. They DID. They just chose not to take them. That's on THEM

While the CS is not responsible for the actions of Tolkeen, to fight to protect its sovereignty is a fundamental responsibility of all nations. Meaning if Tolkeen failed to do so it failed to do one of its fundamental responsibilities as a nation.

Fighting a battle you know you'll die, to gain nothing, isn't a fundamental responsibility. Tolkeen didn't fight to save anyone's life. They didn't fight to make a point. They chose to fight out of HATE for the CS. (The books are clear on this.) They chose to go evil. It was pride.

If they could have won, if they could have stopped the 'evil' of the CS it'd be one thing. They couldn't. Everyone told them this. Everyone. They didn't care. They decided to go evil and up the ante and still didn't come close. The CS is that big. That powerful (Realitivly) The CS Broke EVEN after the war, with Tolkeen utterly destroyed. Worse, the CS actually were 'stronger' after the war, because the people that had been IN the war, had become vetrans (Higher level)

So the war on tolkeen not only didn't 'Hurt' the CS. It actually STRENGHTENED the CS

There was no 'point' for tolkeen to be in the war, other... than to die.

"fight and die" for no REASOn.. is a stupid choice. No matter who you are.

if it was a delaying action to get people to safty. Sure. If it was to stop evil. Sure. But they wern't and they couldn't. They were told by people in the know. people praised in the MEGAVERSE for their intelligence and wisdom. You cannot win. You will ALL Die.

And they did. Senselessly. For nothing.

The fact that Tolkeen choice to fight does not mean that the CS is justified in invading another nation, or its actions in doing so where OK.

The CS was justified in invading the nation, because the two nations were fundimentally opposed in government and society. This, becomes acute, when tolkeen was an EVIL nation of dangerous people.

Thus the invasion and destruction. If Canada suddenly was full of psychotic nazi's that could come across the lake and blow my town off the face of the earth. Then the US would be jusitifed in going in first to stop that from happening.

When the CS went to war. Tolkeen ___WAS___ An evil nation of magic users. They'd -justified- the fear and invasion, due to their actions.

And that is the irony.

The CS thought they were a nation of evil magic users, and must be destroyed, because they were a threat
So Tolkeen BECAME the city of Evil magic users, and a threat.... which in turn made the CS's fears... reality...

And were destroyed for BEING that city of Evil Magic Users.

Had they relocated they'd be alive. Perhaps bitter due to the forced relocation, but they'd be ALIVE to be bitter about it.

Shure they had choices but they where unreasonable choices from a nation with evil leadership.
Forcing such a choice as leave or die is being unreasonable.

If some one comes in and makes a demand leave or die at gun point and I have a gun I am justified in killing him. (armies are nations guns.)

As I said Tolkeens actions do not justify the CS actions. In the war both nations where evil, and at fault for actions. Tolkeen has zero blame for choosing to stay and fight.(they are evil for how they did it, not the fact they did it.

Other nations cities may have hidden but the conditons of them hiding is diffent. Saying other nations have ways to hide so Tolkeen can hide; is like me saying other people have run 100m in under 10 seconds so you should be able to run 100m in under 10 seconds. Just because some one else found a way in a different situation to do it does not mean that it is possible for Tolkeen to do it. (The cities that are hidden A, have locations that where never known, b are for the most part self sufficient. neither of those apply to the cities in the nation of tolkeen.) Hiding is being addressed in another thread.

Nope hiding or relocating are not valid, because those are unreasonable things to expect them to do to maintain their safety. Even less so when they believe they can win.

You are right they had unreasonable options, but stating that does not change the acceptable reason they chose to stay and fight.

Note: Tolkeen chose to fight not die, the result may have been the nation but death was not the choice they made when they went to war. (You are mistaking results/consquences with choice.)

They did not fight a battle they knew they would loose they where convinced they would win.
Nation fight not out of hate for the CS but out of desire to protect there right to exist as a nation. People from Tolkeen sure some hated the CS, many went to war to protect their homes and family.

You keep saying every one told them they could not stop the CS but as a nation they had driven off an earlier CS invasaion.

Sure some new veterans came from the war, but many veterns where lost as well as lots of other troops.(many other veterans would have Sevier mental trauma) The goal of Tolkeen was never to destroy the CS, the sorcers revenge stopped after they drove the 2nd invading CS force out of Tolkeens territory. A third CS force was sent in after many of the experianced mercs that Tolkeen had used for the war had been paid and left.

Their goal with the war was to survive as a nation not hurt the CS, the point of the war for many in Tolkeen was to fight for their freedom and to exist as a nation. Again you are confusing goals/reason with results. Quite frankly although defeated they had a really good reason to fight.

Do not belittle them for trying because they failed. They had good reasons and belief in their cause, and nearly succeeded. (You keep forgetting that little fact, that they drove the CS out then sent troops to help FQ as part of triety and FQ betrayed them attacking the troops they sent to help them.) Tolkeen had driven the 2nd large scale invasion out of their lands, celebrated their success when the CS launched a 3rd large scale invasion as a sneak attack.

So Tolkeen successfully repealed 2 large scale CS invasions, something that no other nation in North America has managed to do. So they where fairly justified in thinking they can defend their lands from the CS.

No the CS war was not justified, there was no threat to the CS populace and the CS itself is a corrupt and evil government of terrorist. The evil of one does not justify the evil of another.

Before Tolkeen war the CS was an evil and corrupt nation of xenophobic nazies.

The war was not about fighting evil the campaign of humanity made it clear the CS planed to steal land from nations when it released a map that all non humans need to leave. They created an unrealistic choice based off their own racism.

Tolkeen was just the first target in this campaign of genocide do to location and personal vendetta of the CS emperor.

[Axelmania]

Yes, so "Leave" or "Die"
Like I said "Its her fault I raped her"

No you are STILL saying that it is the fault of the victim that they were a victim
That is now, and is ALWAYS false. It is the fault of the aggressor. The rapist is responsible, never the raped. Same thing here.

Making comparisons to rape seems like clear baiting here. People own their own body in ways that the monarchy of Tolkeen does not own Minnesota.

Comparisons to rape would only make sense in the classic "abduct" sense if someone was using their body to block the only door into a house where a family is getting murdered and you abduct them (move them) out of the doorway so that you can enter the home and save the family, because that's what I see the CS as doing.

Except in this case you're not just blocking the door, you're standing there holding a gun and shooting at the rescuers if they try to get by you.

Again, blaming the victim does not absolve the victimizer.

I don't see this as victim-blaming so much as, the sacrifice of innocents surrounding Tolkeen is regrettable, but the writing was on the wall long ago to take sides, and if they chose to side with Tolkeen and preventing CS aide to non-magical human communities who needed it, then the CS can't necessarily afford to spend the resources to spare them from their tactical necessities. Blitzkrieg tactics necessary to overwhelm mages (who can win pretty much anything with prep, they're Batman) don't work if you have to slow down and sort out the actual babies from the demons disguised as babies.

1] Agogwe. Africa page 117 Australopithecines: which puts them around 2.9 to 3.9 million years old

2] Pucara Red Giants South America 2 page 52: they are said to be native to earth, and either evolved here or emigrated millennia before Atlantis rose. And Atlanitis FELL 15,000 years ago never mind when it rose. Their civilization predates the arrival of humans on the continent.

3] Ewaipanomas South America 1 page 102: Rifted in 15,000 years ago

4] Tai Shan Chun, Demon Regent of the 7th Yama Kingdom. Rifts China 1 page 38: The Yama kings run the hells for human souls and ONLY human souls they are of special note because as far as can be told they exist solely to process souls from this Earth. Tai Shun Chun is 87,000 years old and thus predates the known use of fire by humans

5] True Sasquatch Rifts Canada page 162. They are explicitly stone age ancestors of humanity, but are NOT humans.

6] Spirit Sasquatch Canada page 160 These supernatural beings were known to the Native Americans for centuries before the first white men came to the continent. (Which would be the 10th century Point Rosee Norse colony at the latest Giving an absolute minimum time of at least the 8th century.

7] Ogogpogo Canada page 157 Dragons trapped here 15,000 years ago.

8] She Who Walks The Circle Spirit West page 180
-She is a Native American human who becomes Deified. Thus demonstrating that at least one of the deities has a valid claim to live on Earth, and she would have the right to invite her friends and family to live with her.
-She also demonstrates that the Pantheon worshiped existed prior to the coming of the rifts. A pantheon that includes several non-human races (Nunnhei, Otoni, Two-FacedStar-People, Man-Eagles)

9) Nunnehi Spirit West page 150 have visited the earth for at least 20,000 years.

10) Man-Eagles Spirit West page 108. They are monsters yes... but they existed well before the CotR since the legendary hero mentioned is an actual real world legend. Thus for that legendary hero to have really lived and done what he did, they would have to have had their (wicked) civilization on Earth for thousands of years

Aren't the Man-Eagles that evil species which likes to abduct human women to mountain-tops and then rape them and drop them for fun? Great example.

8 is an example of a spell-caster who abandoned Earth, and probably didn't believe in property ownership when she was here. Nunnehi have their own place to live in the astral realm, so that's nice they're visiting so long as they don't try to take away human resources. They have the capability of easily avoiding humans so if they are reckless in encountering humans I don't have much sympathy if they get hurt.

5/6/7 are at least examples relevant to North America who the CS may have encountered and hurt. 1-4 is Africa/SA/China stuff which the CS probably hasn't had to think about.

I can accept that the Agogwe may have a claims to regions of Africa (isn't it mainly the Congo?) and the Pucara in South America (the Andes Mountains), since they predate humans on those continents. Tai Shan Shun may be old but I don't think age necessarily conforms to assumed presence in Asia.

The Agogwe would be in a better position to accept human understanding though, considering the Pucara's history. If you look at the Pucara/Nazca history, it's pretty much like the FoM/Coalition history. The Pucara attacked first just like the FoM did, and then the Nazca (like the Coalition) counter-attacked and won.

Pucara's initial presence in South America (maybe they helped wipe out Neanderthals?) wouldn't necessarily mean a planetary claim though. Page 52 may start with "The Nazca people know the bitter truth, however. These giants are native to Earth" the next paragraph says "Perhaps they migrated from another dimension, or maybe they evolved on Earth; nobody knows" so it's still kinda up in the air.

Considering that the Pucara like to live on mountaintops they could probably co-exist pretty well with humans. The whole paranoia about humans outbreeding them seems unwarranted because humans just don't want to go live up on mountaintops for the most part.

These guys don't need to breathe or to eat, so they're not competing for resources. If they weren't so Greedy and had co-operated with the human nomads living in the jungles then they probably could have learned Line Magic from the Nazcas they were jealous of.

Pucara could be great allies to humans by making MDC stone fortresses to help keep them safe.

Tai Shan may be old but aren't the Yama Kings trying to torture and enslave humans? Maybe creatures have existed alongside humanity since its dawn to prey upon them but that wouldn't necessarily give them rights to the world they invade.

And the CS recognizes the right of them, their magic, their gods, their spirits, and their non-human allies to exist?

Recognizing a right for fellow humans to live on the planet isn't recognition of any right to open the interdimensional back door and let all kinds of horrors in. You may as well argue that a Witch of Death has a right to summon the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse.

The Native Americans explicitly endorse and accept things that the CS officially and explicitly rejects. They claim that the Earth should be shared with, at a minimum, the races in their pantheons. That magic is natural. That the spirits have a right to exist on this world as a natural part of it. Since the CS rejects all that, it is sophistry to try and claim that the CS is embracing the Native Americans when they don't.

You can embrace a people's right to exist without having to embrace every aspect of their culture. Many people for example, tolerate a right to live of certain nations yet oppose how they treat some of their people.

Everyone knows the CS would never accept the Natives and would destroy them as a magic using group... for doing what they have done for longer than people like the CS or other "westerners" have existed to impose their ways.

You're talking as if this is an attitude to all natives. CS would only be hostile to Traditionalists/Pure Ones ("retro-savages who rebuke the achievements of human science and technology in favor of magic and dark powers from supernatural monstrosities, Spirit West page 32).

Modern Indians are considered civilized and welcomed citizens of humanity.

Modern Indians also have a stronger claim to the land than the Pure Ones because they abandoned Earth centuries ago to go live in some spiritual wonderland.

Accepting humans doesn't mean you need to accept all human culture. If that were true, you could make the same argument that the CS has to accept Soul Harvesters or Demon Cultists.

The CS rules out any human that does not agree with their particular rules.

Untrue. They eventually accepted Free Quebec and recognized them as an independent ally (keep the Glitter Boys, no Dog Boys required, Juice up) just as they did with Ishpeming (Northern Gun). They also ally with the NGR and are discussing potential alliances with Cordoba/Columbia even in spite of the Dwarven Techno-wizard weirdness.

it is NOT a human planet.

Well... you could still argue that it is, at least partially. We can deal with Agogwe/Dolphin dilemmas if they ever occur. IF the Pucara evolved here then I'd say the peaceful minority are due their mountaintops (which were never really under threat to begin with, humans attacked because the Pucara attacked first)

they are NOT the spokespeople for "humanity"

There's never going to be any singular speaker, but the CS is one good candidate as a speaker for humans, the New Navy and the New German Republic both recognize that. The Republicans I think mostly just want to tweak the CS to be more NGR-like, which I think is a great idea once magic is lowered in North America to Europe-like levels so that literacy is less of a danger.

If the CS grows enough to accept the New Navy and the Vanguard, they could probably also accept Manoa. They are the least offensive of the True Atlanteans since they opposed the magical experiments. Ewaipanoans (like the Pucara) could play a good supportive role to humanity through their ability to manipulate stone to protect people.

These guys tried to do the right thing. They were simple Earth Warlocks (the only way they could possibly survive on a world ridden with them) and tried to leave Earth when the chance was offered by Clan Skellion, and only returned to Earth because the pocket dimension was collapsing.

Of course... if the Atlanteans had simply sealed the rifts connecting to Earth, that probably never would have been necessary, but I blame their shifters, not the headless men.

The CS could possibly accept Ewaipanomas in a supportive role like they do dog boys (though more tertiary than secondary, dog boys have proven themselves more) and a long history of serving humans by building walls to keep out monsters could earn human trust.

They just shouldn't realistically expect to be catapulted into a status of full equality. However many thousands of years their ancestors lived on Earth in the past, they and the other Manoans (Atlanteans, Amazons, Shaydorians) were in another dimension since then and only showed up during the coming of the rifts, disrupting the humans who had inhabited there for centuries.

It's been centuries since, but it is still slow-going. WB6p90 mentions that Manoa seems Columbia/Bahia/Maga as candidates for trade an alliance. Bahia/Maga seem the most likely initial candidates, and realistically if Columbia can already tolerate dealing with B/M (they do, page 18) it's not much of a stretch to tolerate Manoa as well.

The CS is dealing with Columbia in spite of it's Bagia/Maga tolerence so it's possibly, through 2 degrees of separation, for peace to be negotiated with the headless dudes in Manoa.

[Blue_Lion]

I would disagree the CS goverment contains much of the worst of humainty, it is stated as an envoriment that allows cortuption to grow.

Xenophobic Nazi Terrorist are not a good spokes person for all of humanity.(They would kind of be the worst to choose.)

FQ was only treated as free and independent allies by the CS after they went to war with them and failed to win. (for the most part FQ shares the same mind set as the CS.) Humans that live outside the CS and support rights of non human races and free learning are lumped in with D-bees as enemies of CS.

Basically you sound like anything we disprove is evil. Recognizing the magic of Native Americans and there gods is nothing like saying a death witch can summon death. The faith and magic of the Native Americans in of it self poses no threat to human survival.

[Axelmania]

The CS are not described in the canon as Nazis, I find it inappropriate to do that even if Hitler is among one of several dictators who Karl Prosek studies and learns from.

FQ might have eventually won if they had paired up with Tolkeen as Tolkeen tried to do, but FQ opted to kill the demons and aid the CS instead.

The faith and magic of the Native Americans in of it self poses no threat to human survival.

Some of them accept Old Flame Dancing (Spirit West 162) as a Great Spirit. This creature knows Dimensional Portal and has the PPE to use it, which he probably does often since he doesn't appear to have any dimensional teleportation abilities.

The same applies to Evertide (page 166) an anarchist aligned with the Splugorth who travels from the Spirit Realm to various vacation homes in the Great Lakes, meaning he must be littering the places with Poltergeists to supplement any damage he does personally.

Page 168 the miscreant Uktena "would be thrown from the pantheon, but he was one of the original founders". The Native American gods TOLERATE this creature. He's a "necessary element".

This creature "instigated many wars, massacres and acts of depravity among the people of North America". He plants seeds of destruction in the CS and FoM. For all we know he was a force helping to prod them into extreme warfare. He has human pawns he uses as assassins. He associates with the vampires of Mexico and the Splugorth and Ever Tide and demon lords.

Sedna (Canada 174) is a fickle anarchist prone to spiteful cruelties. Rare mercies are only to those who promise to fear her. If she's in a bad mood she'll send storms to possibly kill people. She can never be contradicted or criticized, you always must be submissive to her or suffer wrath. She sends out Demon Bears and Windigo out as instruments of vengeance.

[eliakon]

The CS are not described in the canon as Nazis, I find it inappropriate to do that even if Hitler is among one of several dictators who Karl Prosek studies and learns from.

FQ might have eventually won if they had paired up with Tolkeen as Tolkeen tried to do, but FQ opted to kill the demons and aid the CS instead.

The faith and magic of the Native Americans in of it self poses no threat to human survival.

Some of them accept Old Flame Dancing (Spirit West 162) as a Great Spirit. This creature knows Dimensional Portal and has the PPE to use it, which he probably does often since he doesn't appear to have any dimensional teleportation abilities.

The same applies to Evertide (page 166) an anarchist aligned with the Splugorth who travels from the Spirit Realm to various vacation homes in the Great Lakes, meaning he must be littering the places with Poltergeists to supplement any damage he does personally.

Page 168 the miscreant Uktena "would be thrown from the pantheon, but he was one of the original founders". The Native American gods TOLERATE this creature. He's a "necessary element".

This creature "instigated many wars, massacres and acts of depravity among the people of North America". He plants seeds of destruction in the CS and FoM. For all we know he was a force helping to prod them into extreme warfare. He has human pawns he uses as assassins. He associates with the vampires of Mexico and the Splugorth and Ever Tide and demon lords.

Sedna (Canada 174) is a fickle anarchist prone to spiteful cruelties. Rare mercies are only to those who promise to fear her. If she's in a bad mood she'll send storms to possibly kill people. She can never be contradicted or criticized, you always must be submissive to her or suffer wrath. She sends out Demon Bears and Windigo out as instruments of vengeance.

And non of that is a threat to human SURVIVAL
Poltergiests are not an issue to a being who can command spirits

An entity that causes wars and suffering is being used to justify why it is legitimate to have wars that cause suffering? Come on

And Uktena being a necessary element suggests that he IS important. Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it is not vital to the existence of the world. Unless you can demonstrate, from canon, that the gods are incorrect and that he is NOT a necessary element, then your supposition that he is, in fact not necessary is personal head canon that deviates from the published material.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Well all of that is categorically false. Especially false is the idea that the CS has the right to invade anyone (particularly since nobody was looking for their protection they were looking to be protected FROM them not BY them), Tolkeen had every right to prevent a hostile foreign nation from trespassing on its lands and killing its citizens and in the end the CS was responsible for any supernatural creatures that were unleashed since it was their murderous campaign that forced their victims to resort to them to defend themselves. You lose all right to criticize someone when your efforts to kill them result in them fighting back with everything that they can to survive. You made the problem and you own all that results from it.

The pretense that Tolkeen has no responsibility for it's own choices and actions is silly. The CS didn't "Make" them do anything. They chose to.

As pointed out repeatedly, they had other options.

So far the options presented seem to be "Leave or Die"

I've listed off major options repeatedly. It baffles me that they're not being read, but here we go again for clarity.

1) Yes, LEAVE. Bail out. Relocate. Don't be where, the CS will kill you. As a subset of "LEAVE" is "HIDE" Which we know can be done magically in multiple different ways, as we have magic cities on rifts earth that pull it off with in a few 100 miles of the CS. So we know it can be done.
Is it an awesome option? no, but it is a 100% VALID option. Options don't have to be awesome to be valid. Had they left. They'd still be alive.

2) Stay and fight, but remain "Good' Do not descend into evil. Don't ally with Demons and all maner of dark forces. Don't give your military to multiple generals of Evil alignment. In this aspect, they'd need to vote out or remove King Creed, as he'd gone evil too and wanted war. But it WAS AN OPTION. One they COULD have chosen.
Now.. they'd still die. But they wouldn't have become exactly what the CS accused them of.

3) Stay and fight, but embrace evil. Which is the option that tolkeen went with.

Yes, Tolkeen had other options. Two or three (Depending if you consider 'hide' it's own option or part of 'LEAVE'.

You.. and others seem to be under the impression an 'option' must be "WIN" to be an option. It's not. It never "HAS" to be. Worlds are not 'fair'. There's never a 50/50 fight. Tolkeen's options were limited and some of them were crummy but they ---were options---

If your options are "Leave" "Stay and die heroes" or "Stay and die villians' Those are THREE OPTIONS. Tolkeen chose the last one. That's on THEM. Not the CS.

Yes, so "Leave" or "Die"
Like I said "Its her fault I raped her"

That's not the same thing at all. You're trying an 'appeal to emotion'. I.E. you're throwing a hot button term out there to try and win your arguement due to the knee jerk reaction assioated with it. Might as well throw Nazi's into the mix, or abortion or what have you.

The only way your attempt would be apt would be if some one was given the 'choice' of 'Stay here, and get raped, or leave"

What you're trying to do is link it to a girl dressing a certain way or something. It's not. It would be apt if a known rapist was there and gave the person a choice. Leave, or get raped, and the person staid there knowing it was coming.

and that by staying in their homes they were asking for it.

There's a difference between "Asking for it"

And "Knowing obliteration is coming and staying anyway"

if you know you'll get killed if you stay, and you can run, yet don't, you're complicit in your death. It's he same thing as going "This guy is going to shoot a gun through this door in 5 minutes. If you're standing infront of the door. you'll be shot and killed. Then the person refuses to move.

Yes the other guy pulled the trigger, but if you knew it was coming and refused to get out of the way, you're partially to blame for your own death.

That sounds suspiciously like the justification used by conquerors throughout history.

The CS had no interest in cconquering them. They wanted Tolkeen gone. Conquer would imply you keep the people after. You may have meant 'invading' armies through out history?

Oh and its victim blaming. "If they had just left and let me invade their ancestral homelands I wouldn't have had to kill them" is the exact same sort justification as "well if she hadn't been wearing a short skirt I wouldn't have raped her." and it is just as valid (i.e. not at all in the slightest)

That's not what's being said at all. It's more like "Hey a forest fire is coming. If you stay you'll die" And the person staying anyway. The fire comes, and the fire kills them. Yes the 'fire' killed them, but the lack of self preservation lead to it. If he'd simply run, he would have lived.

In this case -everyone- told Tolkeen they had no chance. That to stay and fight, was to die.

Tolkeen chose to stay. They died. They ARE responsible for their own actions.

No you are STILL saying that it is the fault of the victim that they were a victim

I'm saying if you refuse to move, you share in the fault. It's not like it was a surprise. they could have left. They refused to. if you refuse to save yourself you share in the responsibility of your fate.

That is now, and is ALWAYS false. It is the fault of the aggressor. The rapist is responsible, never the raped. Same thing here.

Again they wern't raped. They geard up and CHOSE TO FIGHT. Stop trying to hide that fact. Tolkeen wasn't innocently walking down the street and suddenly accosted by a surprise attacker and taken advantage of.

The war was BROADCAST. They had 5 years prep time. They were warned by everyone they could talk to what would happen. And inspite of it, they chose to enguage in the fight.

If it was a rapist, the situation would be like this

"Tolkeen is warned a rapist is coming in 5 years.
Tolkeen refuses to leave the area they're told the rapist will be in.
EVERYONE Tells tolkeen that they'll get raped if they're there, when the rapist appears.
Tolkeen then chooses to go to the gym, with the intent on raping the rapist instead.
The rapist shows up. and Tolkeen then attempts to fight off the rapist with the intent on raping THEM
Then.. tolkeen loses and gets raped, as they were warned they would be and had 5 years to get out of the way.

That's not the situation you're trying to envoke with your appeal to emotion.

Tolkeen chose to go evil. Your attempts to blame the CS for the other nation being evil are comical.

They CS didn't 'make them' go evil true. What the CS did was make them realize that they were going to die unless they found something that would let them fight the CS.

They were going to die anyway. As proven by the fact they DID die anyway. Even after choosing to go evil.

And as always. "not be around when the dudes come to kill you" is an option that was not taken.

Again, blaming the victim does not absolve the victimizer.

Tolkeen geared up and chose to go to war. They were in no way a victim. They might not have picked the fight but they more than embraced it. they welcomed it and prepaired for it. Your attempt to make them a victim is just a dodge. Someone getting in a fight with Mike Tyson is likely going to get beat up. That doesn't make them a victim. They chose to have the fight.

And in their search for that they demonstrated the adage about the road to Hell being paved with good intentions.

I'm not sure that's quite apt. But they sure opened the gates and let demons out and then armed them... so...

As for the CS 'right' to wage war. It goes back to 'Earth being a human planet' and all others being invaders/trespassers.

To bad the earth ISNT a human planet.

*Looks around* Could have fooled me.

Obviously

Really? How many non human societys do you know about on earth?

-We know that there were non-humans on earth at a minimum 10,000 years ago

Cite your source, on inhuman civlizations on earth please?

-Heck we know that at least one two pre-human races hashave survived and possibly two or maybe even more. (Agogwe in Africa and True Sasquatch in Canada)

Can I have page numbers that state this please? Every time this sort of thing comes up, claims are made but when the books are opened they say different. I'd like to check myself if possible.

1] Agogwe. Africa page 117 Australopithecines: which puts them around 2.9 to 3.9 million years old

It says 'austalophithecine -type- of humanoids" not that they are. In fact it says they're "nothing like australopithecines". Nor have they ever had a society on earth and were just rumors.

2] Pucara Red Giants South America 2 page 52: they are said to be native to earth, and either evolved here or emigrated millennia before Atlantis rose. And Atlanitis FELL 15,000 years ago never mind when it rose. Their civilization predates the arrival of humans on the continent.

I remember these ones. I looked it up before and disproved it. The write up said they might have migrated to earth and noone knows for sure.

3] Ewaipanomas South America 1 page 102: Rifted in 15,000 years ago

That's not native.

4] Tai Shan Chun, Demon Regent of the 7th Yama Kingdom. Rifts China 1 page 38: The Yama kings run the hells for human souls and ONLY human souls they are of special note because as far as can be told they exist solely to process souls from this Earth. Tai Shun Chun is 87,000 years old and thus predates the known use of fire by humans

Read it. In no way does it say he's native to earth, including prehistory.

5] True Sasquatch Rifts Canada page 162. They are explicitly stone age ancestors of humanity, but are NOT humans.

They're ansestors yes, and seem to have survived, yes, but planet wide where under 1000 at their height. On a planet of billions of humans. They're a curious throw back nothing more.

6] Spirit Sasquatch Canada page 160 These supernatural beings were known to the Native Americans for centuries before the first white men came to the continent. (Which would be the 10th century Point Rosee Norse colony at the latest Giving an absolute minimum time of at least the 8th century.

Lots of monsters are claimed in legend but it doesn't mean they're native to earth. Most societies have tales of demons and dragons, they're not native to earth.

7] Ogogpogo Canada page 157 Dragons trapped here 15,000 years ago.

Not native. "Been around hiding a long time" doesn't make it native.

8] She Who Walks The Circle Spirit West page 180
-She is a Native American human who becomes Deified. Thus demonstrating that at least one of the deities has a valid claim to live on Earth, and she would have the right to invite her friends and family to live with her.
-She also demonstrates that the Pantheon worshiped existed prior to the coming of the rifts. A pantheon that includes several non-human races (Nunnhei, Otoni, Two-FacedStar-People, Man-Eagles)

Human changed magically. __Human__ changed... was human.

9) Nunnehi Spirit West page 150 have visited the earth for at least 20,000 years.

Not native. Again "A long time" doesn't equate to native.

10) Man-Eagles Spirit West page 108. They are monsters yes... but they existed well before the CotR since the legendary hero mentioned is an actual real world legend. Thus for that legendary hero to have really lived and done what he did, they would have to have had their (wicked) civilization on Earth for thousands of years

Or it rifted in at that time or was a story. Again countless monsters from Rifts appear in our stories, with out being on earth, 'real' or native here.

I could go on and on... but that should be a good sample, though if you need more examples I can get you more. Heck there is a thread right now that is doing nothing but collecting this information.
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=151882

Thing is they don't actually work. At best you have a few 'missing links' in the Humans' family tree. You might as well claim chimps and gorilla's in there. (As a note, both the lil guys from africa and the sasquatch have sub human IQ's)

The rest are either not for sure, or "Rifted in a long time ago and hid" Which doesn't make them native. They didn't evolve here. The South american ones (I'd likely misspell that looking right at it) and the Sasquatch are desccribed as missing links in the evolution chain, which.. tops out (naturally) With humans. It's the human's world.

The idea that some how those things just 'go away' is ludicrous.

-Then there is the fact that North America was the domain of the Native Americans for thousands of years.

Native American HUMANS. yes?

Who shared it with at least 2 other races, the Nunnhei and the True Sasquatch, so the answer is "No"

Evolutionary steps into becoming humans as described by the book. So the answer is still yes.

Who had at least 1 non-human race in their pantheon. The Natives were driven off and dispossessed of North America.

There's still native americans in Rifts. They got an entire book didn't they?

And the CS recognizes the right of them, their magic, their gods, their spirits, and their non-human allies to exist?

lol no two countries in the real world reconizes the 'rights' of all people, magic, their gods, their spirits and allies. Humans can't even agree on other humans. Your query is silly.
The CS recognizes humans as human. Those that aren't, arn't. One doesn't have to respect one's religion to classify them as human.

The CS is claiming that the European claim of ownership which is shorter than the Dark Ages is stronger than the Dark Ages?

The CS claim that earth is a human planet. Native Americans are humans. it's stated that there's no race (human skin color) bias in the CS. Humanity, all humanity has legacy claim on earth.

To bad the Native Americans are not as racist as the CS.

I just pointed out that hte CS are not 'racist'. They're Speciest for sure, but not racist in the classic sense. The native americans in Rifts are more racist arent' they? (Been a while but if memory serves they're not all about the white guys?)

The Native Americans explicitly endorse and accept things that the CS officially and explicitly rejects.

So? I'm not trying to be funny but it's not a contest. The point that native American's in rifts earth currently accept Dbees and magic is all well and good. But what's it have to do with anything?

They claim that the Earth should be shared with, at a minimum, the races in their pantheons.

I'm sure most beings with gods would claim the same thing. Still doesn't make the Dbees and what have you native.

That magic is natural. That the spirits have a right to exist on this world as a natural part of it. Since the CS rejects all that, it is sophistry to try and claim that the CS is embracing the Native Americans when they don't.

No. You're saying that the CS doesn't accept the Native American SOCIETY. Which is fine. They don't. They accept native american PEOPLE though. You can be a native american guy and in the CS, a citizen and in the army with your skin color, hair color and ansestory. The CS has no problem with that what so ever.

Now if you try and enforce your societal beliefs, if they're contrary to CS Society, then you're going to run into problems.

Everyone knows the CS would never accept the Natives and would destroy them as a magic using group... for doing what they have done for longer than people like the CS or other "westerners" have existed to impose their ways.

The CS accept people of native American ansestory if they live and exist as other CS citizens do. It's explicitly stated the CS doesn't have racisim due to skin color. They're worried about 'HUMAN" or 'NOT"

I mean how can Europeans claim that they can claim North America for 'humanity' and their claim is valid even though they are stealing the land, and held it for around 250 years... but that D-Bees, some of whom have been here for 300+ years do NOT have a claim? Its ludicrous.

Because the CS don't rule out other humans like you seem to be doing?

The CS rules out any human that does not agree with their particular rules.

They don't claim them to be another species. Just enemies of the nation. There's a difference.

The CS don't claim "Euro rights" they claim HUMAN RIGHTS. they're different.

The problem is that to do so they have to cherry pick the facts

Not trying to be funny or anything but every nation on earth does that, and has, as long as there's been nations to do so.

and selectively ignore details that are inconvenient. Like the fact that it is NOT a human planet. That they are NOT the spokespeople for "humanity". That their claims require rejecting the prior claims of others.

But it is a human planet. Humans evolved here and became hands down the dominant species. With two examples of previous steps in the evolutionairy ladder hanging around in the shadows unseen and unheard.

As for the CS, they speak for humanity in that they're a dominant human nation on the planet and have the means to militarily back up their claims.

No one else has 'Prior claim" When Humans evolved here, at most you could argue that the Sasquatch may have squatters rights as previous steps on the evolutionary ladder, but there's only a few thousand of them on the planet and they're pre-tool using creatures that meander around the woods eating berries and what have you with no inclination of socialization what so ever.

It certainly isn't their planet, if at their height (Pre-rifts) they couldn't martial as many people on the planet as I have in my neighborhood. (There's 3,000 people on base, and pre-rifts the Sasquatch never numbered over 1,000))

[eliakon]

and selectively ignore details that are inconvenient. Like the fact that it is NOT a human planet. That they are NOT the spokespeople for "humanity". That their claims require rejecting the prior claims of others.

But it is a human planet. Humans evolved here and became hands down the dominant species. With two examples of previous steps in the evolutionairy ladder hanging around in the shadows unseen and unheard.

Err, as pointed out there are a multitude of other beings who have had a presence on the planet for thousands of years, some for tens of thousands of years

As for the CS, they speak for humanity in that they're a dominant human nation on the planet and have the means to militarily back up their claims.

Not really. They are one of the human nations on the planet. ONE OF THEM.
But they are only the "dominant' nation if one ignores every other nation that could rival them.

No one else has 'Prior claim" When Humans evolved here, at most you could argue that the Sasquatch may have squatters rights as previous steps on the evolutionary ladder, but there's only a few thousand of them on the planet and they're pre-tool using creatures that meander around the woods eating berries and what have you with no inclination of socialization what so ever.

So you are saying that possetion DOES justify ownership?
That taking land, by force from its owners makes you the legitimate owner?
Make up your mind. Can humans claim the earth, even though they stole it, or not? Because the argument works both ways.

It certainly isn't their planet, if at their height (Pre-rifts) they couldn't martial as many people on the planet as I have in my neighborhood. (There's 3,000 people on base, and pre-rifts the Sasquatch never numbered over 1,000))

Regardless your argument is that humanity has a legitimate claim to stolen property because they took it
This is at odds to your claim that no one ELSE may use the same claim
It also of course ignores the fact that there were multiple other claims to North America dating back 20,000 years that the CS is ignoring.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Well all of that is categorically false. Especially false is the idea that the CS has the right to invade anyone (particularly since nobody was looking for their protection they were looking to be protected FROM them not BY them), Tolkeen had every right to prevent a hostile foreign nation from trespassing on its lands and killing its citizens and in the end the CS was responsible for any supernatural creatures that were unleashed since it was their murderous campaign that forced their victims to resort to them to defend themselves. You lose all right to criticize someone when your efforts to kill them result in them fighting back with everything that they can to survive. You made the problem and you own all that results from it.

The pretense that Tolkeen has no responsibility for it's own choices and actions is silly. The CS didn't "Make" them do anything. They chose to.

As pointed out repeatedly, they had other options. Tolkeen chose to go evil. Your attempts to blame the CS for the other nation being evil are comical.

As for the CS 'right' to wage war. It goes back to 'Earth being a human planet' and all others being invaders/trespassers.

The other options leave, or hide are in of them selves unrealistic to expect a nation to have to do.

Not at all. When the options are "Leave, hide, or die" Then one would think taking the least objectionable choice is very realistic.

You leave or hide.

Or you die.

If you're at McDonalds and you don't carry a gun and someone comes in with a shot gun and points at you andd goes "LEAVE OR DIE!!"

And you go "Screw you I'm eating my burger. It's a free country. I don't have to leave if I don't want to!"

You're technically correct. Right up till he shoots and kills you. You're "right' That it's not a NICE option you were left with. Leaving or dieing, but you made your choice. To stay and die.

If someone claimed "It WAS a free country, he shouldn't have to leave" Technically they'd be right. You'd still be dead. Realisticly you should have gotten out of that McDonalds.

Same thing with Tolkeen. "Leave or die!" "You can't make me! MUAHAHAHAHAHA DEMONS! Oh crap we're dead"

Tolkeen had 3 cities and many small towns and villages withing its territory, many of which had D-bee or magical citizens. So hiding it from the CS was not likely a feasible option, many in the towns and villages lacked the credits to relocate.

MAGIC. Tolkeen was a sizable magic 'nation' (State). They had the ability. how do we know? Other magical 'nations(States/cities) have done it, IN RIFTS EARTH, only a few 100 miles away. It is feasible. As there's MULTIPLE OTHER CITIES/NATIONS that do exactly that.

They could have consolidated their people. Taken in the people from the outlaying communities and done it. They had military build up for YEARS. Hiding or relocating instead is fully valid.

In addition they likely felt attached to the land they owned like many humans did and still do, and where willing to fight for what is theirs.

I'm sure they did. It doesn't change the fact that they --had multiple options--. Pride and possessiveness has gotten people killed since there were people killing one another. For SURE.

In this case, Tolkeen CHOSE to die. And that's my over all point. people act like they didn't have other options. They DID. They just chose not to take them. That's on THEM

While the CS is not responsible for the actions of Tolkeen, to fight to protect its sovereignty is a fundamental responsibility of all nations. Meaning if Tolkeen failed to do so it failed to do one of its fundamental responsibilities as a nation.

Fighting a battle you know you'll die, to gain nothing, isn't a fundamental responsibility. Tolkeen didn't fight to save anyone's life. They didn't fight to make a point. They chose to fight out of HATE for the CS. (The books are clear on this.) They chose to go evil. It was pride.

If they could have won, if they could have stopped the 'evil' of the CS it'd be one thing. They couldn't. Everyone told them this. Everyone. They didn't care. They decided to go evil and up the ante and still didn't come close. The CS is that big. That powerful (Realitivly) The CS Broke EVEN after the war, with Tolkeen utterly destroyed. Worse, the CS actually were 'stronger' after the war, because the people that had been IN the war, had become vetrans (Higher level)

So the war on tolkeen not only didn't 'Hurt' the CS. It actually STRENGHTENED the CS

There was no 'point' for tolkeen to be in the war, other... than to die.

"fight and die" for no REASOn.. is a stupid choice. No matter who you are.

if it was a delaying action to get people to safty. Sure. If it was to stop evil. Sure. But they wern't and they couldn't. They were told by people in the know. people praised in the MEGAVERSE for their intelligence and wisdom. You cannot win. You will ALL Die.

And they did. Senselessly. For nothing.

The fact that Tolkeen choice to fight does not mean that the CS is justified in invading another nation, or its actions in doing so where OK.

The CS was justified in invading the nation, because the two nations were fundimentally opposed in government and society. This, becomes acute, when tolkeen was an EVIL nation of dangerous people.

Thus the invasion and destruction. If Canada suddenly was full of psychotic nazi's that could come across the lake and blow my town off the face of the earth. Then the US would be jusitifed in going in first to stop that from happening.

When the CS went to war. Tolkeen ___WAS___ An evil nation of magic users. They'd -justified- the fear and invasion, due to their actions.

And that is the irony.

The CS thought they were a nation of evil magic users, and must be destroyed, because they were a threat
So Tolkeen BECAME the city of Evil magic users, and a threat.... which in turn made the CS's fears... reality...

And were destroyed for BEING that city of Evil Magic Users.

Had they relocated they'd be alive. Perhaps bitter due to the forced relocation, but they'd be ALIVE to be bitter about it.

Shure they had choices but they where unreasonable choices from a nation with evil leadership.

1) Tolkeen was a nation with evil leadership.
2) and this is important. Words mean things.
The typical usage of the term 'unreasonable' means "not reasonable or rational, not guided by reason or sound judgement"

In that usage, the choice to leave or hide is FULLY Reasonable. It is 'rational' as to not choose that, would be to cease to exist. Thus making the choice guided by REASON instead of EMOTION, would leave the choices of 'Leaving/hiding' the highest on the list when faced with certain death.

Now the choices weren't OPTIMAL. That's for sure, but they were choices and ones were present that allowed for their continued existance. They failed to embrace that choice.

Forcing such a choice as leave or die is being unreasonable.

No. It's being mean. "Mean" doesn't equal 'Unreasonable'. There was the 'Leave' option there. "Die in a fire, or die in a flood" Would be unreasonable as both choices lead only to death.

If some one comes in and makes a demand leave or die at gun point and I have a gun I am justified in killing him. (armies are nations guns.)

Sometimes. You'd be amazed at the laws in some places that would say that if you had a valid avenue of escape and did not partake of it, you are NOT justified in killing.

For the record. I'm not saying that Tolkeen wasn't allowed the OPTION To fight back. Just that doing so was STUPID"

It'd be like someone coming in with a TANK and saying 'leave" and all you had was a pistol. Sure you can fight, but you're gonna die. As tolkeen learned the hard way.

As I said Tolkeens actions do not justify the CS actions. In the war both nations where evil, and at fault for actions. Tolkeen has zero blame for choosing to stay and fight.(they are evil for how they did it, not the fact they did it.

Tolkeen is responsible for it's own actions. It's action lead to it's death. They're responsible for choosing that option when there -were others available-.
It circles back to the guy with a gun shooting a certain spot analogy.
If you have forewarning of a murderer with a gun, that's GOING to shoot through a door at noon tomorrow, and you have the options of 1) standing infront of the door at noon and 2) Getting out of the way of the door at noon. And you STAND there at noon. Has he murdered you? Or did you commit suicide with the other guy';s gun? Surely you share the blame for your death, as you KNEW you'd die if you did what you did, and you did it anyway. He pulled the trigger, but it was your choice to die.

Other nations cities may have hidden but the conditons of them hiding is diffent.

The conditions are 'Rifts earth" and "Magic cities" .... the conditions are exactly the same.

Saying other nations have ways to hide so Tolkeen can hide; is like me saying other people have run 100m in under 10 seconds so you should be able to run 100m in under 10 seconds. Just because some one else found a way in a different situation to do it does not mean that it is possible for Tolkeen to do it.

Ehh.. close with this one. Close. I'll give you that, but not quite apt. In this case it would be "There are two olympic level runners whom have ran 100m in under 10 seconds and tolkeen is a THIRD olympic level runner that's renoun for being just as fast if not faster than the other two, so they should be able to run that same 100m in under 10 seconds.

But nice one. That one was closer. (Not being mean. Giving you props here)

(The cities that are hidden A, have locations that where never known, b are for the most part self sufficient. neither of those apply to the cities in the nation of tolkeen.) Hiding is being addressed in another thread.

Nope hiding or relocating are not valid, because those are unreasonable things to expect them to do to maintain their safety. Even less so when they believe they can win.

Again "Not optimal" or "not liked" are different from "Unreasonable"

If the choices are "leave, hide or die" then hiding or leaving are VERY Reasonable to a void death. They're not kind choices. They're even mean choices but they're present.

As for them believing they could win, that is something else that Tolkeen brought on itself. Noone else in the megaverse said they'd win. Infact they were told by -everyone- they'd lose. Tolkeen was STUPID. And thus, paid a price for their stupidity.

You are right they had unreasonable options, but stating that does not change the acceptable reason they chose to stay and fight.

There can be many reasons to stay and fight. (Tolkeen chose spite, but it 'is' a reason) Thing is they earned nothing in doing so. Nothing. They not only failed their purpose, they failed to survive, and in doing so, actually made their enemies STRONGER than they were to start.

Note: Tolkeen chose to fight not die, the result may have been the nation but death was not the choice they made when they went to war. (You are mistaking results/consquences with choice.)

No. if they had any reasonable or logcial reasoning for thinking they'd win. that'd be true, but -everyone- agreed they would do nothign but die. They were told this by Educated allies. They refused to accept the truth. At the very best Tolkeen's leaders were evil and HORRIBLY self deluded, to the tune of a nation's SUICIDE. Had they a chance to win, then it'd be a "Choose to fight' they didn't have that chance, so it turns to "Choose to fight and die"

They did not fight a battle they knew they would loose they where convinced they would win.

Everyone knew they'd lose. They were told they'd lose. To not 'Know' they'd lose means 1) They were lieing to themselves or 2) Too stupid to realize it. One implies self delusion. Other implies nation wide stupidity. As EVERYONE ELSE ---KNEW--- Tolkeen would die. And they did. Proving that point right.

Nation fight not out of hate for the CS but out of desire to protect there right to exist as a nation.

Ehhh.... It was out of hate. Sure the end result was defending their right to exist as a nation, but that point would have better been served by..... existing as a nation. Tolkeen didn't. It died.
had they hurt their aggressor in some way, it might have jusitified their 'death' but they didn't. They strenghtned that which they stood against and still died.

They fought due to hate.

People from Tolkeen sure some hated the CS, many went to war to protect their homes and family.

Some did, in this though it circles back around to leadership and Creed is shown to have chosen the war not out of love of the people of Tolkeen but hate of the CS and being an evil poke himself. (Hey Karl's an Evil poke too. lol))

You keep saying every one told them they could not stop the CS but as a nation they had driven off an earlier CS invasaion.

One battle. Yes. But that's not stopping THE CS. As shown, when the CS got serious tolkeen was face rolled and utterly destroyed and the CS immerged stronger than it started. One battle isn't a 'war'. (Usually)

Sure some new veterans came from the war, but many veterns where lost as well as lots of other troops.(many other veterans would have Sevier mental trauma)

That's not how it's shown in cannon. Aftermath and other books pointed out that those 'lost' in the war, were by and large throw away people from the burbs and what not. That those that went into the war and survived had become vetrans and were a more formitable fighting force because of it. Due to heavy enlistment and recruitment, all losses experienced were replaced.

The CS broke even in numbers, and the numbers they have, are 'higher level' after the war. the CS not only won, they leveled up.

The goal of Tolkeen was never to destroy the CS, the sorcers revenge stopped after they drove the 2nd invading CS force out of Tolkeens territory. A third CS force was sent in after many of the experianced mercs that Tolkeen had used for the war had been paid and left.

Well that was pretty stupid wasn't it? lol I mean it's funny but it's true. When your enemy has armies in the MILLIONS and you turn a few thousand of them back and call it a win. That's pretty stupid.

Their goal with the war was to survive as a nation not hurt the CS,

Their goal was to do both. They failed at both. utterly.

the point of the war for many in Tolkeen was to fight for their freedom and to exist as a nation. Again you are confusing goals/reason with results. Quite frankly although defeated they had a really good reason to fight.

Many of the fighters reason was yes, to fight for their freedom and right to exist. That was not universally held by the evil leadership though. whom very much fought to hurt the CS and to kill people.

There are many many 'reasons' to fight, but if you die in the end, you hope your death means somthing. Tolkeen's didn't.

Do not belittle them for trying because they failed.

But I do.

THEY WERE TOLD THEY'D FAIL.

They did. And they didn't hurt the CS, they strengthened their enemies in dieing.

Had they crippled the CS in some manner, in their deaths then their deaths would have meaning. They didn't. They made the CS STRONGER.

Tolkeen sucked.
1) They CHOOSE to go evil instead of staying good.
2) They fought a war they couldnt' win, instead of running and living.
3) Then they lost and got destroyed, just like everyone told them they would, and didn't manage to hurt the CS in doing so.

That's failure all the way around for 'nothing'. the 'cause' not only failed, but it failed so utterly that it would show others not to try the next time, and made the CS harder to beat the next time. I totally belittle them. They were stupid many times over.

They had good reasons and belief in their cause, and nearly succeeded.

Some of them had good reasons. Many if not most were evil looking to kill crap. They 'believed' in a fools cause.

And no.. they didn't nearly succeed. They won a few battles. When the CS got serious Tolkeen was face rolled and is kitty litter.

(You keep forgetting that little fact, that they drove the CS out then sent troops to help FQ as part of triety and FQ betrayed them attacking the troops they sent to help them.)

The forstalled a couple of smaller invasions, then went to slaughter CS Troops with demonic armies, where in FQ went 'HOLY BALLS!! THESE GUYS ARE EVIL AS FRAK AND IN LEAGUE WITH DEMONS!! SCREW THAT!! GET UM!"

(Not for nothing, yet another stupid move on Tolkeen's part)

Tolkeen had driven the 2nd large scale invasion out of their lands, celebrated their success when the CS launched a 3rd large scale invasion as a sneak attack.

Hardly sneaky when you know the war's coming for 5 years and had already fought previously.

So Tolkeen successfully repealed 2 large scale CS invasions, something that no other nation in North America has managed to do. So they where fairly justified in thinking they can defend their lands from the CS.

1) The only reason that happend was to sell books in the seesaw nature of the series
2) They wern't full scale invasions as when the CS commited to it, they oblitterated tolkeen, and
3) No, they wenr't justified, because when the CS got serious, they showed just how smart it was to fight them. I.E. they destroyed tolkeen and razed the city.

No the CS war was not justified, there was no threat to the CS populace and the CS itself is a corrupt and evil government of terrorist. The evil of one does not justify the evil of another.

War in and of itself isn't 'evil'. Yes. A close neighbor being evil is full jusitification for war. being evil with armies of demons and such is MORE than justification.

Before Tolkeen war the CS was an evil and corrupt nation of xenophobic nazies.

Naa. Before the tolkeen war the CS was a nation LEAD by evil and corrupt people. Yes they are most certinly (Justifiably) Xenophobic in the extreme.

The war was not about fighting evil the campaign of humanity made it clear the CS planed to steal land from nations when it released a map that all non humans need to leave. They created an unrealistic choice based off their own racism.

Not at all. the CS had said from the start that a kingdom of evil magic users so close to their borders was a threat and they needed to eliminate that threat. They ALSO had the intent of occupying the needed land. One doesn't invalidate the other. Before occupation could occur, one had to get the evil magy types out of the equation. Can't have them lingering around eating people.

Tolkeen was just the first target in this campaign of genocide do to location and personal vendetta of the CS emperor.

Hardly the first, but yes, first to fall due to location, and the fact it actually WAS an evil nation of magic users. They didn't go after lazlo first, did they?

[Pepsi Jedi]

I would disagree the CS goverment contains much of the worst of humainty, it is stated as an envoriment that allows cortuption to grow.

I'm not sure what sort of corruption you mean here?

Xenophobic Nazi Terrorist are not a good spokes person for all of humanity.(They would kind of be the worst to choose.)

Why are the CS Terrorists?

They're not Nazis' They just dress in black. I do for the most part too.

Seriously though, why do you call them terrorists?

FQ was only treated as free and independent allies by the CS after they went to war with them and failed to win.

More accurately when FQ stood up to other demons and inhumans and showed itself to be an ally, they were reconized as such.

(for the most part FQ shares the same mind set as the CS.)

Actually FQ is worse.

Humans that live outside the CS and support rights of non human races and free learning are lumped in with D-bees as enemies of CS.

They're considered foes. yes.

Basically you sound like anything we disprove is evil. Recognizing the magic of Native Americans and there gods is nothing like saying a death witch can summon death. The faith and magic of the Native Americans in of it self poses no threat to human survival.

It could. Therein lies the problem. The views on magic of the CS are well documented. The CS believes that to deal in magic openes you up to supernatural corruption and evil.

[Blue_Lion]

Is he talking his views on magic and justification or CS views and propaganda?
Debating the same topic in multiple threads is a bit of a pain so I will not address it in here.

[Axelmania]

And non of that is a threat to human SURVIVAL Poltergiests are not an issue to a being who can command spirits

That would only mean the threat is slightly mitigated to those who have abilities which can possibly command them.

Even in the case of the spell, it has a savings throw, it has a limited duration, and you have to know they're there to begin with meaning you probably need Amulets or familiars to detect them for you.

An entity that causes wars and suffering is being used to justify why it is legitimate to have wars that cause suffering? Come on

And Uktena being a necessary element suggests that he IS important. Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it is not vital to the existence of the world. Unless you can demonstrate, from canon, that the gods are incorrect and that he is NOT a necessary element, then your supposition that he is, in fact not necessary is personal head canon that deviates from the published material.

Necessary for what exactly? By that logic, we can simply declare the CS to be a necessary element and be done with it.

The published material simply say the gods view him that way, not that he is. It isn't 'headcanon' for me to be skeptical of their conclusion.

It would be apt if a known rapist was there and gave the person a choice. Leave, or get raped, and the person staid there knowing it was coming.

This thread is getting worryingly close to discussing 'the rape tunnel'. I would avoid getting baited into accepting this analogy and arguing using it as it's just bound to be upsetting and fuel sensationalist attempts to derail the thread.

I just pointed out that hte CS are not 'racist'. They're Speciest for sure, but not racist in the classic sense. The native americans in Rifts are more racist arent' they? (Been a while but if memory serves they're not all about the white guys?)

It's a wider scope of prejudice than against caucasians, they worship beings who exclusively empower only people of Native American ancestry, their gods discriminate against all other ethnicities of human, and they're okay with it.

there are a multitude of other beings who have had a presence on the planet for thousands of years, some for tens of thousands of years

In all fairness to the Pucara, if they came from another dimension to live in American mountains back when humans were still evolving in Africa it still doesn't necessarily give them the right to take Earth just because humans hadn't spread to every inch of it. Particularly since they refused to peacefully coexist and attacked innocent humans unprovoked.

they are only the "dominant' nation if one ignores every other nation that could rival them.

We're not necessarily saying they're the most dominant human nation on Earth, just in the region.

For example, per World Book 9 page 122:

"Cordoba is the largest human nation in South America and is only second to the Coalition States in the Americas".

That makes the CS the largest human nation in the western hemisphere. They were the Pat Patterson of Chaos Earth and the Mike Mizanin of present-day Earth: they are the Intercontinental Champions of humanity. I'd wager NGR would win the distinction of largest in the east (certainly Europe), though I could be forgetting Russian/Japanese numbers.

[Blue_Lion]

Forcing some one to leave or hide to avoid death, is being unreasonable as the person forceing the choice is not going to listen to reason. It is unreasonable to expect some a nation to do so as there is no reasonable expectation for an entire nation to pick up and leave, especially when many lack the ability to maintain their life when they do so.

If I told you land belonged to the Quinault tribe and you have 24 hours to leave or you would be killed; that is being unreasonable; there is no reason to expect you to abandon your house.


CS was described by the books as a place where corruption thrives, what people mean by corruption should be fairly obvious.

[Axelmania]

Hide/Leave wasn't the first option the CS gave Tolkeen, it's the last resort because Tolkeen refused to negotiate and began confronting CS in Minnesota lethally.

This wasn't 24 hours to leave, this was decades of Tolkeen blocking the CS from helping human communities in Minnesota who obviously wanted their help.

[Nightmask]

Hide/Leave wasn't the first option the CS gave Tolkeen, it's the last resort because Tolkeen refused to negotiate and began confronting CS in Minnesota lethally.

This wasn't 24 hours to leave, this was decades of Tolkeen blocking the CS from helping human communities in Minnesota who obviously wanted their help.

No, just no, none of that is true. The CS refused to negotiate, killing the diplomats sent by Tolkeen to try and make a peaceful agreement with them, the CS ALWAYS engaged in lethal confrontations with the people of Tolkeen, Tolkeen did not block the CS from helping anyone it acted to protect its citizens from the depredations of the CS who were and are a hostile foreign power threatening everyone under Tolkeen's protection. The CS had only one point, to kill the peaceful citizens of Tolkeen and take what belonged to them nothing more. They had no more right to be telling the citizens of Tolkeen to leave or die than you do doing that to your neighbor because you want his house.

[Axelmania]

The CS sent a diplomat back in a body bag (presumably they were dead inside it, otherwise that's a hilarious prank) but we don't know who killed them or what they did prior to that death which might have led to it.

While it's possible that the 6 towns the CS destroyed were part of the so-called "Kingdom", it doesn't say either way, the CS may simply have been acting forcefully nearby Tolkeen and they got antsy.

The CS were NOT attacking "everyone" under Tolkeen's protection, they didn't attack Tolkeen itself for example, just a bunch of unspecified towns in Minnesota which may or may not have been part of the kingdom.

Killing peaceful citizens was never the CS aim, though it's a cost they're willing to pay to secure Minnesota, and it is unfortunate that the peaceful are fooled into staying as fodder by the violent, for an educated peace-seeker would have left to let the violent ones do the fighting.

Wanting territory was icing, the CS was justified to attack to secure the region for the human communities in Minnesota who desired CS protection and whose wishes were ignored by the King/Circle.

[Nightmask]

The CS sent a diplomat back in a body bag (presumably they were dead inside it, otherwise that's a hilarious prank) but we don't know who killed them or what they did prior to that death which might have led to it.

Well that's just ridiculous excuse-making, the CS murdered the diplomat and sent him back as their message for what they thought about peace talks (i.e. thought them pointless from people that they intended to murder and take their land and property from and only cared to give them the 'peace' of the grave').

While it's possible that the 6 towns the CS destroyed were part of the so-called "Kingdom", it doesn't say either way, the CS may simply have been acting forcefully nearby Tolkeen and they got antsy.

The CS were NOT attacking "everyone" under Tolkeen's protection, they didn't attack Tolkeen itself for example, just a bunch of unspecified towns in Minnesota which may or may not have been part of the kingdom.

Killing peaceful citizens was never the CS aim, though it's a cost they're willing to pay to secure Minnesota, and it is unfortunate that the peaceful are fooled into staying as fodder by the violent, for an educated peace-seeker would have left to let the violent ones do the fighting.

Wanting territory was icing, the CS was justified to attack to secure the region for the human communities in Minnesota who desired CS protection and whose wishes were ignored by the King/Circle.

Man just give it rest trying to spin-doctor things to make the CS look decent, they aren't they're explicitly an evil empire. It's not a 'so-called' kingdom it was an actual Kingdom and stop with the fantasies that the CS didn't attack Tolkeen it certainly did it waged an entire war on Tolkeen and it certainly intended to kill peaceful citizens it's their policy to do that.

Oh and again the CS had NO justification to attack ANYONE in Minnesota, even if there were communities that were insane enough to want CS protection NO ruler is going to let a hostile empire take over control over any of its communities like you suggest, just as for example the US wouldn't allow Mexico to take over towns in the US that said 'well gee we want to be under Mexican rule' because the towns don't have that power and the US isn't going to hand over any of its land to a foreign power.

To claim that the CS was justified in killing people to take land that didn't belong to it to 'protect' others is just absurd, that's just making excuses to try and whitewash murder.

[Axelmania]

Sedition doesn't specify that the diplomat was murdered, that's just the conclusion that Tolkeen and people who assume the worst about the CS would jump to.

I didn't say CS never attacked Tolkeen... who would say something like that?

The CS had justification to attack Minnesotan towns if they were full of evil and demons and cross-border terrorist. We have no idea what they found in those towns.

The CS doesn't necessarily recognize the authority of Tolkeen's monarch to claim all of Minnesotan land. That seemed like something they started to do out of the blue right after Joseph was killed.

Comparing US/Mexico to CS/Tolkeen doesn't seem appropriate. Tolkeen doesn't appear to be democratic.

The justification for the CS here is liberating human communities in Minnesota who do not recognize the rule of Tolkeen's king.

[Blue_Lion]

Saying they sent him back in a body bag is a polite way of saying they killed him. The very statement implies a meaning.

The CS sent the Tolkeen diplomat back in a body bag. = They killed the diplomat.
The Tolkeen diplomat to the CS was returned in a body bag. = Diplomat died and was sent home.

The way it was written has an implied meaning of the CS killing him.
If I say you send some one I will send them home in a body bag. Is a threat to kill any one who you send.

And people have pointed out that is false justification. The human communities in Minnesota where more free before Cs liberation. (I do not recall any town in Tolkeen that is stated as not recognizing Tolkeens king.)

When comparing actions between nations them being democratic or not is irrelevant. The comparison using US and Mexico is valid as it is about national government and local governments, not democracy.

Regardless how you spin it the CS killed people and used force of arms to annex anther nations lands. Many of the people the CS killed where native ( born on earth because native implies birth of origin not the same as indigenous that means being their naturally) and many where also human.
(There was no evidence of cross boarder terrorist presented. There was no documentation of Tolkeen sending troops into CS territory before the war.)

[flatline]

Sedition doesn't specify that the diplomat was murdered, that's just the conclusion that Tolkeen and people who assume the worst about the CS would jump to.

Certain phrases have established meanings that convey more than just the literal interpretation of the phrase.

Your inability/unwillingness to recognize and understand these types of phrases and your dogmatic defense of the conclusions you draw from these misunderstandings cause a tremendous amount of frustration here on the forums. If you continue on this path, you will end up on people's foe lists just like Tor did.

--flatline

[Axelmania]

The CS sent the Tolkeen diplomat back in a body bag. = They killed the diplomat.
The Tolkeen diplomat to the CS was returned in a body bag. = Diplomat died and was sent home.

The phrasing "Tolkeen receives their Ambassador back in a body bag" appears to resemble the second sentence more than the first.

In page 98 of "A Writer's Wane" you can see "Shortly after the wedding, he too went to Nam, and came back in a body bag."

This certainly leads one to assume that he went to Vietnam to fight in a war, and probably died from gunfire, but the military can also send you home in a body bag if you die from other means like suicide or food poisoning or tripping and breaking your neck.

You can see an example of that in page 13 of "Diary of a Madman": "We had to swim back. One guy didn't make it back. He came back in a body bag."

So here we have an example showing the phrase is used in literature for someone who died via drowning during a training exercise. For all we know this Ambassador passed out and drowned in the private jacuzzi the CS provided.

Should the CS have done something other than a bag, such as a wooden coffin, if an Ambassador dies while visiting them? Maybe that would have been more polite.

The CS might at worst be untactful.

And people have pointed out that is false justification. The human communities in Minnesota where more free before Cs liberation. (I do not recall any town in Tolkeen that is stated as not recognizing Tolkeens king.)

Wanting CS rule and helping the CS would obviously reflect they don't want that king bossing them around.

When comparing actions between nations them being democratic or not is irrelevant. The comparison using US and Mexico is valid as it is about national government and local governments, not democracy.

Comparing the validity of 1 democratic country invading another democratic country isn't exactly the same as comparing the validity of 1 democratic country invading a monarchy.

Or to use another example, invading a dictatorship like Iraq.

There was no evidence of cross boarder terrorist presented.

The CS were stopped in their investigation before a full picture of the situation could be acquired.

There was no documentation of Tolkeen sending troops into CS territory before the war.

The CS can't reasonably acquire witnesses to verify or deny that if their investigation is halted by threats.

[Blue_Lion]

CS had no right to send armed troops into Tolkeen, but sending troops into Tolkeen is not how you investigate,(that is how you start wars) cross boarder threats you set up OPs(observation points) on your side and capture the ones attacking you. Us knows that terrorist cross boarders not because we cross boarders chasing them but we capture them and interrogate them. Saying that Tolkeen stopped an investigation seams false to me as there is no evidence to support the existence of the threat to begin with.

**You need evidence of a threat to justify an investigation, it is not we have no evidence of a threat so we investigate to determine if there is a threat.**

We are not speaking from the CS point of view what the CS can or can not prove has nothing to do with what we have access to. No writer makes any reference of Tolkeen based insurgents attacking the CS.

A back and forth secret war before the war is worth writing about.

The second does not absolve the CS of fault for breaking down of talks. When a Diplomat goes to a nation that nation is responsible for his safety. His death was a major diplomatic issue, the responsibility was with the CS to take actions to correct that if they wished for peace talks. Tolkeen made efforts but there is no sign of CS returning any efforts to have diplomatic relations.

It is reasonable from the text for people to assume that the CS killed the diplomat, as he was returned from CS in a body bag, as it would be to assume a soldier sent home from Iraq was killed by terrorist. With no other party listed as involved and CS having dislike of Tolkeen they are the first suspect.

Weather or not it is justified to annex another nations land is not tied to the type of government.
The general principles of weather it is right for a nation to invade another is not based on weather or not both parties are diplomatic. It is something that sill holds true from when it happened 100s of years ago.
Note the CS may have been a democracy at one time but is currently an Empire-led by an emperor. Their is also evidence of tampering with peoples ability to make educated choices a key feature in successful democracy. So as an Empire with an heir to the emperor the CS is also a monarchy.

Note: In a democracy their is more standing for a group to vote to succeed(in theory they decide their fate) and go to Mexico than their is for a vote to succeed and leave a monarchy. But the democracy is a false defense in this case as it is about concept of invasion.

[Blue_Lion]

I am having a hard to understanding Axlemania logic in this. It just makes no sense.

1.He makes a claim about Tolkeen having terrorist attacking the CS.
2.It get countered with we have no evidence of that happening.
3.He counters with that is because Tolkeen stopped the CS from investigating.

To me that amounts to he can make any wild claim to justify CS actions and feels he does not have to provide evidence that justification was valid. Should the burden of evidence be to prove a claim of action is true for it to be used as Justification here. After all we are not discussing CS propaganda.

[guardiandashi]

I am having a hard to understanding Axlemania logic in this. It just makes no sense.

1.He makes a claim about Tolkeen having terrorist attacking the CS.
2.It get countered with we have no evidence of that happening.
3.He counters with that is because Tolkeen stopped the CS from investigating.

To me that amounts to he can make any wild claim to justify CS actions and feels he does not have to provide evidence that justification was valid. Should the burden of evidence be to prove a claim of action is true for it to be used as Justification here. After all we are not discussing CS propaganda.

he also nitpicks and gets fixated on irrelevant points.

fact Tolkeen was a valid government and a Sovereign nation. it might have been more akin to a city state (still a Sovereign nation just a small one) but that does not change that fact.

the Coalitition by refusing to accept that Sovereignty was acting as a "bully" and or terrorists.

the nature of a government has NO bearing on the validity of its territorial borders, when you send a detachment of your military across someones borders without proper "due process" that is an ACT of WAR, it does not matter if its the US chasing people over mexicos borders, or Canada's or Italy going into Greece. it does not matter if one any government is a Democracy, a Republic, a Monarchy, a Dictatorship, or something else.

when I read some of the lead up to the "war" it is fairly obvious that the Coalition because of their actions was deliberately trying to goad Tolkeen into actions that they would then use to "justify" their destroying them. Which is why I will insist that the Coalition was in a lot of ways responsible for tolkeen's decent into evil. not that tolkeen isn't responsible for their own actions, they are, but because people when they get bullied have a tendency to stop thinking clearly and start reacting. and the fact that it took years does NOT absolve the Coalition in any way because for nations years are effectively seconds or minutes when comparing to personal interactions.

[Axelmania]

Actually I said they were investigating terrorism in Minnesota and then the city of Tolkeen all of a sudden declared themself a kingdom (which is why "Kingdom of Tolkeen" is mockingly put in quotes) claiming all of Minnesota was their land.

I see no evidence that city had any sovereign claims over any other towns in Minnesota in 70 PA. Is this history maybe elaborated on in one of the later books? Sedition 101's quotations around KoT clearly implies illegitimacy.

It's not the first instance of its use. 20 PA does say that Chairman Joseph Prosek assessed "the rising Kingdom of Tolkeen" as a threat to the fledgeling nation (I figure this is nation-state since the CS hadn't been formed) of Chi-Town.

Even here though, it's put in italics. The italics and quotes when Kingdom appears in 20/70 doesn't convey legitimacy to it.

In 20 PA it says of Tolkeen "the city-state was quickly becoming a nation like Chi-Town". Had it clearly become a nation 50 years later?

It was at least a kingdom. I don't know if it was Gravender Henchu at the time or maybe his predecessor. It only mentions the area around Minneapolis (Tolkeen city) and St. Paul (Freehold) as being free of monsters though. According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minneapol ... Saint_Paul there is 2,646 km2 urban and 21,000 km2 metro so a total of 23,646 square kilometres.

That's very impressive but compared to all of Minnesota which has 225,181 km2 that's still a lot of area in the state which ISN'T free of monsters, so by 20 PA the Kingdom of Tolkeen hadn't secured the majority of the state and I see no indication that they had necessarily fixed that 50 years later when they confronted the CS for investigating terrorists.

[Nightmask]

Actually I said they were investigating terrorism in Minnesota and then the city of Tolkeen all of a sudden declared themself a kingdom (which is why "Kingdom of Tolkeen" is mockingly put in quotes) claiming all of Minnesota was their land.

I see no evidence that city had any sovereign claims over any other towns in Minnesota in 70 PA. Is this history maybe elaborated on in one of the later books? Sedition 101's quotations around KoT clearly implies illegitimacy.

It's not the first instance of its use. 20 PA does say that Chairman Joseph Prosek assessed "the rising Kingdom of Tolkeen" as a threat to the fledgeling nation (I figure this is nation-state since the CS hadn't been formed) of Chi-Town.

Even here though, it's put in italics. The italics and quotes when Kingdom appears in 20/70 doesn't convey legitimacy to it.

In 20 PA it says of Tolkeen "the city-state was quickly becoming a nation like Chi-Town". Had it clearly become a nation 50 years later?

It was at least a kingdom. I don't know if it was Gravender Henchu at the time or maybe his predecessor. It only mentions the area around Minneapolis (Tolkeen city) and St. Paul (Freehold) as being free of monsters though. According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minneapol ... Saint_Paul there is 2,646 km2 urban and 21,000 km2 metro so a total of 23,646 square kilometres.

That's very impressive but compared to all of Minnesota which has 225,181 km2 that's still a lot of area in the state which ISN'T free of monsters, so by 20 PA the Kingdom of Tolkeen hadn't secured the majority of the state and I see no indication that they had necessarily fixed that 50 years later when they confronted the CS for investigating terrorists.

Tolkeen didn't 'suddenly declare itself a Kingdom' it was always a kingdom, one that made it clear that its boundaries included all of Minnesota. The fact you choose to ignore that fact and pretend that it was just some little city with no land but that of the city proper just adds to the list of things you keep insisting on that are false in order to justify the CS's UNJUST acts of war against Tolkeen, not the least of which being murdering their diplomat when they tried to negotiate peace. NONE of the actions by the CS were moral, decent, or justified.

[Blue_Lion]

Actually I said they were investigating terrorism in Minnesota and then the city of Tolkeen all of a sudden declared themself a kingdom (which is why "Kingdom of Tolkeen" is mockingly put in quotes) claiming all of Minnesota was their land.

I see no evidence that city had any sovereign claims over any other towns in Minnesota in 70 PA. Is this history maybe elaborated on in one of the later books? Sedition 101's quotations around KoT clearly implies illegitimacy.

It's not the first instance of its use. 20 PA does say that Chairman Joseph Prosek assessed "the rising Kingdom of Tolkeen" as a threat to the fledgeling nation (I figure this is nation-state since the CS hadn't been formed) of Chi-Town.

Even here though, it's put in italics. The italics and quotes when Kingdom appears in 20/70 doesn't convey legitimacy to it.

In 20 PA it says of Tolkeen "the city-state was quickly becoming a nation like Chi-Town". Had it clearly become a nation 50 years later?

It was at least a kingdom. I don't know if it was Gravender Henchu at the time or maybe his predecessor. It only mentions the area around Minneapolis (Tolkeen city) and St. Paul (Freehold) as being free of monsters though. According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minneapol ... Saint_Paul there is 2,646 km2 urban and 21,000 km2 metro so a total of 23,646 square kilometres.

That's very impressive but compared to all of Minnesota which has 225,181 km2 that's still a lot of area in the state which ISN'T free of monsters, so by 20 PA the Kingdom of Tolkeen hadn't secured the majority of the state and I see no indication that they had necessarily fixed that 50 years later when they confronted the CS for investigating terrorists.

Tolkeen didn't 'suddenly declare itself a Kingdom' it was always a kingdom, one that made it clear that its boundaries included all of Minnesota. The fact you choose to ignore that fact and pretend that it was just some little city with no land but that of the city proper just adds to the list of things you keep insisting on that are false in order to justify the CS's UNJUST acts of war against Tolkeen, not the least of which being murdering their diplomat when they tried to negotiate peace. NONE of the actions by the CS were moral, decent, or justified.

No evidence it had sovereignty before 70 PA but it was recognized as a growing nation in 20 PA.(He just contradicted himself.)

Placing it italics means they are emphasizing it does not apply in itself it is illegitimate, it could be it was not a nation ruled by a king thus not a true kingdom but called that any ways. It was recognized as a nation as early as 20PA by the CS so it was likely a nation before that. May have had shifting government type as it grew much like how the CS started as a democracy and is now led by an emperor.

It could be it was not ruled by a king until 70PA or that was the point where they got fed up with the CS and said stay out of our boarders.

[Alrik Vas]

Look, Tolkeen is ashes and memories now. So what does this have to do with the CS running out of resources?

[Blue_Lion]

Look, Tolkeen is ashes and memories now. So what does this have to do with the CS running out of resources?

Basically it started out as justifying CS invasion of Tolkeen to grab resources.
That brings the whole CS vs Tolkeen debate in, and those go on for ever.
When I see some one posting things that do not seam accurate I address it a few Pro Tolkeen post got addressed and allot of the same few pro CS.

[Alrik Vas]

Why does it matter if it was justified or not? It happened. The CS isn't in need of resources from Tolkeen in particular, but if they were, they have them now. The writers of the story made the conflict about ideals and a way of life, rather than water, oil, silver or anything else. So we can talk about those ideas all we want and how wrong both sides were, but really...it's over, been over for a while now, Tolkeen lost it's soul, then it lost the war.

That was the story they wanted to tell, so they told it.

[J_cobbers]

Look, Tolkeen is ashes and memories now. So what does this have to do with the CS running out of resources?

Basically it started out as justifying CS invasion of Tolkeen to grab resources.
That brings the whole CS vs Tolkeen debate in, and those go on for ever.
When I see some one posting things that do not seam accurate I address it a few Pro Tolkeen post got addressed and allot of the same few pro CS.

I thought it started because post Tolkeen (pre HoH?) it seemed like the CS would be short of troops/food/equipment with the Minion War event looming/happening next.

[Blue_Lion]

Look, Tolkeen is ashes and memories now. So what does this have to do with the CS running out of resources?

Basically it started out as justifying CS invasion of Tolkeen to grab resources.
That brings the whole CS vs Tolkeen debate in, and those go on for ever.
When I see some one posting things that do not seam accurate I address it a few Pro Tolkeen post got addressed and allot of the same few pro CS.

I thought it started because post Tolkeen (pre HoH?) it seemed like the CS would be short of troops/food/equipment with the Minion War event looming/happening next.

The CS provides most the food for NA, they are never short on it. The war did not happen in the CS farm land.

CS army is unrealistically large for the number of people in north amerce of 30-40 million including D-bees(number from D-bees of north America)in north. Yet the CS has over a million of troops to fight in just one of two wars without significant drop in force at there cites most where scooped out of the burbs. The us has 1.2 million active duty members of the armed forces with another .8 million in reserve, our population base is almost 324 million people. So with 10% of the US population left the CS has a armed force larger than the US.


CS has millions of suits of old style armor sitting around after their refit. Their reserve old style supplies could out fit most people in other rifts nations. So no shortage their.

Logistically the CS makes no sense, it should not be able to push the numbers it can.

I do recall that rifts deposit new minerals underground.

But the idea that the CS has 1/10 the total NA population in its military is mind boggling. I mean it is not like they have some secrete military complex that can clone them people.

[Axelmania]

Tolkeen didn't 'suddenly declare itself a Kingdom' it was always a kingdom,

No kingdom was 'always' a kingdom. As for whether Tolkeen was a kingdom since Minneapolis was renamed that, what's your source?

The earliest I know is it was a "rising Kingdom" in 20 PA. Which page has statements about its status prior to 20 PA?

one that made it clear that its boundaries included all of Minnesota.

What year did it make that clear, and did it have a justifiable basis for doing so?

No evidence it had sovereignty before 70 PA but it was recognized as a growing nation in 20 PA.(He just contradicted himself.)

No contradiction, you misquoted me. 20 PA says Tolkeen is a kingdom, the 'fledgeling nation' in that statement was Chi-Town.

I asked for evidence of Tolkeen (Minneapolis) having sovereign rights over any other cities in Minnesota at the time.

Freehold is mentioned as existing in 20 PA but only in the context of saying the area around it and Tolkeen was free of monsters. I'm unclear as to what year Freehold became a member of the kingdom. For all I know it may have merely been a neighbour (perhaps an ally) in 20PA.

This is why I'm curious if anyone knows of any other books which expand on the information presented in Sedition's timeline.

It was recognized as a nation as early as 20PA by the CS

You are incorrect on 2 counts:
1) the Coalition States did not exist in 20 PA, at the time Tolkeen was mentioned as being assessed by Joseph Prosek I, the Chairman of Chi-town. The CS is formed in 33 PA.
2) it was recognized as a kingdom, not as a nation

CS has millions of suits of old style armor sitting around after their refit. Their reserve old style supplies could out fit most people in other rifts nations. So no shortage their.

You just got me thinking about those millions of SAMAS they had in storage...

What happens to nuclear reactors of PA? Can they be put on standby for periods of long storage to extend their life?

If not then wouldn't you want to keep the PA in constant use to get the most value out of the nuclear battery before its lifespan expired?

Which makes me wonder if the stored SAMAS maybe were put there because their batteries had run out and the CS didn't think it was worth investing in new ones, since they'd rather put those in Super SAMAS?

Would make them a good raiding target for Techno-Wizards since they could try to power them with telekinetic engines.

[Blue_Lion]

Hate to break it to but a kingdom is a type of nation.

CS states is a direct evolution of the city of chi town as a nation. So what it reconized was reconised by the city is reconised by what it become.

Basically Tolkeen was a nation/kingdom before the CS was formed so yes since they came out of the dark ages and we track nations it was always a nation.

Typically when something with a nuclear power plant gets moth balled/ placed in storage they pull the fuel out of the reactor.

[Axelmania]

Nope, the United Kingdom for example is several nations, and it's plausible a nation could be divided into kingdom provinces. I could declare a single town a kingdom but it might not qualify as a nation.

We could possibly compromise in calling the Tolkeen kingdom a micronation at some earlier point. I figure at some later date it's simply called a nation, just not sure what year. Chi-Town too would have been a micronation at some point before growing.

[flatline]

What value is there in arguing these semantics?

Tolkeen was a regional power. Whether you call it a kingdom or nation or whatever seems irrelevant.

--flatline

[Axelmania]

I guess being considered a nation gives a sense of greater weight, coming into play by our assessing how established Chi-Town and Tolkeen were in 20 PA vs 70 PA.

[J_cobbers]

Nope, the United Kingdom for example is several nations, and it's plausible a nation could be divided into kingdom provinces. I could declare a single town a kingdom but it might not qualify as a nation.

We could possibly compromise in calling the Tolkeen kingdom a micronation at some earlier point. I figure at some later date it's simply called a nation, just not sure what year. Chi-Town too would have been a micronation at some point before growing.

(NOTE to Flatline) I actually do enjoy discussing symantics, as often in my work it is important to have a clear understanding of language.

Axel, I gotta disagree with you. A nation and a kingdom are pretty synonymous. The word Nation is very broad and encompasses various subsets within it, one of which would be a kingdom. The UK is a rather unique kingdom, being made of several smaller states; much like how the U.S. is a group of separate states, but only one nation. However a Kingdom does not have to be made of several other nations, that is not a precursor for "kingdom-hood." Really a Kingdom is simply one kind of nation, ruled by a monarch, usually a king or a queen. In Rifts Earth, there is no reason that a town couldn't set itself up as a Kingdom and independent Nation, though with the level of dangers, it might not last long if it doesn't have the power to protect itself but there's no reason one couldn't do so. There is no population or sized based definition for a Nation, Kingdom or State.

A Nation is an autonomous State (big "S"), and Kingdom can on it's own be a Nation. Where as in the U.S. each member state (little "s") is not fully autonomous of the others visa vie the Federal Government. Otherwise under your understanding of Nationhood, the USA would be an example of several nations (the states) under a single government as well. Not all states (little "s") are Nations, though all nations are States (Big "S"). It's a lot of semantics to be sure, but really it all boils down to sovereignty; if a city, state, kingdom etc can claim sovereignty over it's territory and is not subject to any other State then it's a Sovereign state i.e. Nation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_state

There is also the concepts of Nation-states: ie a nation with a single state, as opposed to a conglomerate of states making up one nation: and City-states: Ie a nation made of a single autonomous city and the territory it controls (example the Vatican City in Rome).

See dictionary.com's definition for Nation, State, City State, and Nation-State:
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/nation a large body of people, associated with a particular territory, that is sufficiently conscious of its unity to seek or to possess a government peculiarly its own.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/state?s=t a politically unified people occupying a definite territory; nation.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/city-state?s=t a sovereign state consisting of an autonomous city with its dependencies

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/nation-state?s=t a sovereign state inhabited by a relatively homogeneous group of people who share a feeling of common nationality.

[Svartalf]

Hate to break it to but a kingdom is a type of nation.

CS states is a direct evolution of the city of chi town as a nation. So what it reconized was reconised by the city is reconised by what it become.

Basically Tolkeen was a nation/kingdom before the CS was formed so yes since they came out of the dark ages and we track nations it was always a nation.

Typically when something with a nuclear power plant gets moth balled/ placed in storage they pull the fuel out of the reactor.

Actually not... a kingdom is a state ruled by a King, it has nothing to do with being a nation... in 1610 the Kingdome of England encompassed 3 nations (English, Welsh, Scottish), and parts of the Irish nation, whereas, in the early middle ages, the Irish nation was divided into oodles of tiny kingdomd.... for that matter, before 700 AD and the emergence of the Modern day states of Denmark, Sweden and Norway, which would later evolve into full and differentiated nations, so was the Norse nation.