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Unread postPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 2:33 pm
  

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Knight

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MadGreenSon wrote:
Mack wrote:
However, if you approach the class differently it's pretty unique. It's got really good engineering skills, so it can fill that technical/mechanic role within a team. It can function as a "backup mage," meaning that it's limited spell casting can fill in the gaps for other mages. It can take any pilot skill, including robots and PA. Plus a nice set of 6 minor psionic powers. The class really does have a lot of potential depending on how the player wants to approach it. You just can't plan to build anything during an adventure.

Fair.

I still like the idea of a group composed of an Operator, Techno Wizard, Mystic Kuznya, Gizmoteer, and maybe one or two other crafter types collaborating over the course of a campaign and at the climax of the overall plot they unleash the massive techno-magi-psi Robot of Doom! they've been working on to save the day like a gang of Doctor Dooms.

Throw in a high megas for access to high level spells, and they could really start getting nasty.

Well you did not remove the heart/leaking nuke core so the robots golem powers allow it to full heal and get back up in a day.

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Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:29 pm
  

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A Techno-Wizard is no different than any other OCC in that there are things you need to do outside of game time. Men-at-arms need to shop for new and better weapons or repair equipment. Example I had a RMB headhunter with a robot vehicle and he wanted smart multi-warhead Medium Range Missiles for his vehicle. The first time he did this I made it part of an adventure, but later it was just shopping between games as it would just get too boring.

TWs are the same. He wants to create a device you can make a few adventures around acquiring some really expensive or rare components but most of it is just shopping and can be done over email between adventures. Construction is the same. Sit down with the player and make the rolls until he has successfully made the device or the components are exhausted, determine how much time it will take and then just keep track of time between adventures and when you hit that time they have the device.

Mack wrote:
However, if you approach the class differently it's pretty unique. It's got really good engineering skills, so it can fill that technical/mechanic role within a team. It can function as a "backup mage," meaning that it's limited spell casting can fill in the gaps for other mages. It can take any pilot skill, including robots and PA. Plus a nice set of 6 minor psionic powers. The class really does have a lot of potential depending on how the player wants to approach it. You just can't plan to build anything during an adventure.

TWs have great psionics, spells (yes half power when not through a device but still useful in an emergency), and while they don't have a lot of skills there only real limitation is no espionage. With all this you can make any kind of character you want.

I had players make characters modeled on Batman, Flash Gordon, and of course WWII pilots.

MadGreenSon wrote:
Fair.

I still like the idea of a group composed of an Operator, Techno Wizard, Mystic Kuznya, Gizmoteer, and maybe one or two other crafter types collaborating over the course of a campaign and at the climax of the overall plot they unleash the massive techno-magi-psi Robot of Doom! they've been working on to save the day like a gang of Doctor Dooms.

This sounds interesting but again I prefer a more diverse group of PCs (MaA, S&A, Mages, Psychics) just so you have access to everything Rifts has to offer. I'm just not sure how long you could keep a campaign like this going but it might be cool for a limited campaign.

Mack wrote:
Don't forget the Psi-Tech!

Likewise, I've had a concept in mind for a TW works as a merc version of the CS Skelebot Specialist, only with TW-enhanced Triax 'bots.

I have never had anyone play a Psi-Tech but they seem underpowered compared to most of the other OCCs.

A TW overseeing a group of TW modified drones would be terrifying.

Blue_Lion wrote:
MadGreenSon wrote:
Mack wrote:
However, if you approach the class differently it's pretty unique. It's got really good engineering skills, so it can fill that technical/mechanic role within a team. It can function as a "backup mage," meaning that it's limited spell casting can fill in the gaps for other mages. It can take any pilot skill, including robots and PA. Plus a nice set of 6 minor psionic powers. The class really does have a lot of potential depending on how the player wants to approach it. You just can't plan to build anything during an adventure.

Fair.

I still like the idea of a group composed of an Operator, Techno Wizard, Mystic Kuznya, Gizmoteer, and maybe one or two other crafter types collaborating over the course of a campaign and at the climax of the overall plot they unleash the massive techno-magi-psi Robot of Doom! they've been working on to save the day like a gang of Doctor Dooms.

Throw in a high megas for access to high level spells, and they could really start getting nasty.

Well you did not remove the heart/leaking nuke core so the robots golem powers allow it to full heal and get back up in a day.

I'm not going to let a PC do this but you just gave me a great idea for an evil TW antagonist.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:27 pm
  

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If you want a sneaky TW the NinjaTW, but as far as I know it was not updated to match rue. (still has the old TW two skill slot for tech skills.)

_________________
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:58 pm
  

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Mack wrote:
Don't forget the Psi-Tech!

Warshield73 wrote:
I have never had anyone play a Psi-Tech but they seem underpowered compared to most of the other OCCs.

A Psi Tech is pretty much an Operator with a few more psionic abilities, slightly less skill with building stuff, and pretty amazing potential as a pilot.

Having a Psi Tech for a pilot might be a good call...
Mack wrote:
Likewise, I've had a concept in mind for a TW works as a merc version of the CS Skelebot Specialist, only with TW-enhanced Triax 'bots.

German engineering is the best (human) engineering in the world! I think that sounds pretty cool, honestly.
Blue_Lion wrote:
Throw in a high megas for access to high level spells, and they could really start getting nasty.

A high magus would fit in pretty well.
Blue_Lion wrote:
Well you did not remove the heart/leaking nuke core so the robots golem powers allow it to full heal and get back up in a day.

Hm. A slowly regenerating, magical super robot? Sounds like a party to me.
Warshield73 wrote:
I'm not going to let a PC do this but you just gave me a great idea for an evil TW antagonist.

If it's done for the endgame of a campaign? I've got no problem with it. By that point they will have earned it.
Warshield73 wrote:
This sounds interesting but again I prefer a more diverse group of PCs (MaA, S&A, Mages, Psychics) just so you have access to everything Rifts has to offer. I'm just not sure how long you could keep a campaign like this going but it might be cool for a limited campaign.

In my experience I have better, longer lasting, games when the group has focus. Whether that's similar occupations, or just fully coordinated with everyone to put a group together for a purpose.

Going free for all and letting everyone do whatever leads to short and unsatisfying campaigns in my experience.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 9:32 pm
  

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Killer Cyborg wrote:
I don't use England because I don't like the weird take on Arthur. Well, I do use millenium trees. Those are cool.

I hate Rifts Japan because Rifts Earth was more interesting with Japan being what was originally described: a small cluster of islands where nothing of note happens.
BUT I did use the material in Rifts Japan to update the Foot Clan for Rifts Earth, so I can't say I've never used it.

I dislike New West because it's way too cartoony, and it's overpowerd compared to other places, as if all the gun manufacturers were holding back their best toys for the most sparsely populated area. Also, I object to the idea that somebody out west is going to be THAT much better with a pistol than somebody in the East or anywhere else.
Oh, and they boosted the already overpowered dinosaurs from the first printing RMB up to be on par with dragons, without giving any reason WHY these non-supernatural, non-augmented animals would be so powerful.
Also, New West is kind of the epitome of where Rifts (IMO) went terribly wrong, scrapping original ideas that fit the post-apocalypse setting (vampires in Mexico, bug men up north, tentacle critters and monsters on Atlantis, Dinosaurs in Florida, etc.) in favor of the much, much cheesier "let's just take modern cliches of each area, and update them for Rifts. So... Mounties in Alaska, Cowboys & Indians out West, Knights in England, Ninjas & Samurai in Japan, MDC Kangaroos in Australia, MDC lobsters in Main, Magic cheese and wine in France, etc. etc. etc.
(Okay, I made the last two up.)

I dislike Spirit West for the same reasons why I dislike New West, PLUS there's a weird kind of racist Noble Savage take on Native Americans in it that rubs be the wrong way, the epitome of which is the Laser Bow... which I also hate for reasons of science and logic.
(If you want to know more, just Search for any number of rants I've made about the Laser Bow in the past.)

No, no mounties in Alaska, bad bad go away mounties.
I use everything from England and brought back the "real" Arthur and Myrddin to punish Zashan and save England. I like the local flavor myths but your right... the bow is too stupid to exist... funny though if you make one pump worth 1SD so the idiot with the bow is sitting there pumping up this bow while being shot at.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 9:51 pm
  

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Hotrod wrote:
I agree that Rifts is at its best when it's novel and keeps any cultural/historical cliches with M.D.C. to a minimum. That said, I also think it's possible to work creatively with a lot of that content or build up other material and content that makes a region more interesting and compelling. My side project expanding Africa is such an attempt. My preference is to try to look forward and create a future history/culture that's different than what has come before for a given region.

I should also mention that there are ways in which it's quite possible to look forward and back simultaneously in ways that are novel and interesting. Rifts Madhaven is a great example of this, combining a natural extension of the setting (Mystic Knights of the White Rose) in a twisted and novel take on what we might expect. My only disappointment about that book is its lack of treasure and incentive for people to go there; it would have been nice to see some interesting rewards put into the book.

I'm hard-pressed to think of any world books that I wouldn't ever use *something* from. Even books that lean hard on cultural cliches usually have something that might be useful.

I suppose a bigger obstacle to using a given world book is the isolation of that setting. I think this matters more in practice than the cultural cliche issues. The China books, Australia, and Japan are good examples of this isolation. If there's not much in the way of trade or interaction with the rest of the world, then why would a GM and/or players ever go there? Super-isolated places need some kind of strong incentive to get players and GMs interested, or else they seem to become irrelevant to most of the fans. At least, that's been my observation.

All this said, the one Rifts book that just can't see myself using any part of is Mutants in Orbit. It doubles down on the isolation issues and adds in unworkable mechanics (I'd have to invent entire systems to make movement and/or space combat make any sense), a two-setting approach that feels like a poor fit for both Rifts and After the Bomb, and a lack of any compelling story, conflict, personalities, or adventures that I could see GMs or players get excited about. It's also a book that Phase World and the Three Galaxies series of books has utterly eclipsed for people who want to play Rifts in space. If there's one book in canon I would want to retcon and totally rewrite, Mutants in Orbit would be it.


I found Madhaven comparatively boring.
I love the "cliché" that the books have. I feel that it gives a familiarity to the world and then twisting them a little makes it "new".

That isolation and reason for going to those strange places... same reason to go most places in the megaverse... random Rifts.

The three galaxies can't be used for Rifts in space. The way it is now should definately be redone but they can't go as far as phaseworld because the stations and colonies would have no reason not to descend and completely annihilate most of the "alien" invaders.

_________________
:thwak: you some might think you're a :clown: but you're cool in book :ok: :thwak:--Mecha-Viper

BEST IDEA EVER!!! -- The Galactus Kid

Holy crapy, you're Zer0 Kay?! --TriaxTech

Zer0 Kay is my hero. --Atramentus

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Unread postPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:29 pm
  

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Zer0 Kay wrote:
I love the "cliché" that the books have. I feel that it gives a familiarity to the world and then twisting them a little makes it "new".


And this is why we're enemies.
:p

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Unread postPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:03 am
  

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Knight

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Warshield73 wrote:
A Techno-Wizard is no different than any other OCC in that there are things you need to do outside of game time. Men-at-arms need to shop for new and better weapons or repair equipment. Example I had a RMB headhunter with a robot vehicle and he wanted smart multi-warhead Medium Range Missiles for his vehicle. The first time he did this I made it part of an adventure, but later it was just shopping between games as it would just get too boring.

TWs are the same. He wants to create a device you can make a few adventures around acquiring some really expensive or rare components but most of it is just shopping and can be done over email between adventures. Construction is the same. Sit down with the player and make the rolls until he has successfully made the device or the components are exhausted, determine how much time it will take and then just keep track of time between adventures and when you hit that time they have the device.

Mack wrote:
However, if you approach the class differently it's pretty unique. It's got really good engineering skills, so it can fill that technical/mechanic role within a team. It can function as a "backup mage," meaning that it's limited spell casting can fill in the gaps for other mages. It can take any pilot skill, including robots and PA. Plus a nice set of 6 minor psionic powers. The class really does have a lot of potential depending on how the player wants to approach it. You just can't plan to build anything during an adventure.

TWs have great psionics, spells (yes half power when not through a device but still useful in an emergency), and while they don't have a lot of skills there only real limitation is no espionage. With all this you can make any kind of character you want.

I had players make characters modeled on Batman, Flash Gordon, and of course WWII pilots.

MadGreenSon wrote:
Fair.

I still like the idea of a group composed of an Operator, Techno Wizard, Mystic Kuznya, Gizmoteer, and maybe one or two other crafter types collaborating over the course of a campaign and at the climax of the overall plot they unleash the massive techno-magi-psi Robot of Doom! they've been working on to save the day like a gang of Doctor Dooms.

This sounds interesting but again I prefer a more diverse group of PCs (MaA, S&A, Mages, Psychics) just so you have access to everything Rifts has to offer. I'm just not sure how long you could keep a campaign like this going but it might be cool for a limited campaign.

Mack wrote:
Don't forget the Psi-Tech!

Likewise, I've had a concept in mind for a TW works as a merc version of the CS Skelebot Specialist, only with TW-enhanced Triax 'bots.

I have never had anyone play a Psi-Tech but they seem underpowered compared to most of the other OCCs.

A TW overseeing a group of TW modified drones would be terrifying.

Blue_Lion wrote:
MadGreenSon wrote:
Mack wrote:
However, if you approach the class differently it's pretty unique. It's got really good engineering skills, so it can fill that technical/mechanic role within a team. It can function as a "backup mage," meaning that it's limited spell casting can fill in the gaps for other mages. It can take any pilot skill, including robots and PA. Plus a nice set of 6 minor psionic powers. The class really does have a lot of potential depending on how the player wants to approach it. You just can't plan to build anything during an adventure.

Fair.

I still like the idea of a group composed of an Operator, Techno Wizard, Mystic Kuznya, Gizmoteer, and maybe one or two other crafter types collaborating over the course of a campaign and at the climax of the overall plot they unleash the massive techno-magi-psi Robot of Doom! they've been working on to save the day like a gang of Doctor Dooms.

Throw in a high megas for access to high level spells, and they could really start getting nasty.

Well you did not remove the heart/leaking nuke core so the robots golem powers allow it to full heal and get back up in a day.

I'm not going to let a PC do this but you just gave me a great idea for an evil TW antagonist.

I did it with a meta plot antagonist, he shows up and starts arming the FoM and providing them with troops. (surprising the only group to decide not to go after him where playing CS SF.)

_________________
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:48 am
  

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Knight

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MadGreenSon wrote:
Mack wrote:
Don't forget the Psi-Tech!

Warshield73 wrote:
I have never had anyone play a Psi-Tech but they seem underpowered compared to most of the other OCCs.

A Psi Tech is pretty much an Operator with a few more psionic abilities, slightly less skill with building stuff, and pretty amazing potential as a pilot.

Having a Psi Tech for a pilot might be a good call...


Psi-Techs can be stupendously potent in their own right and as a member of a party. The thing to remember about Psi-Techs is that they don't necessarily need to have the same skills as an Operator, because their approach to technology is built on Telemechanics more than knowledge. If you give a Psi-Tech a piece of unfamiliar technology, that character will immediately understand it, be able to fix it, and even be able to modify it. However, if you ask that same Psi-Tech to replicate it, draw up a blueprint of it, or reverse-engineer it, that same character will give you a blank look and shrug, unless the Psi-Tech also has the appropriate skills to do so. Thus, a Psi-Tech excels at custom-rigging parts and systems together, but is more limited in creating new parts.

On the flipside, with the appropriate skills, an Operator can understand, fix, and modify tech, and can also design new items, draw up plans/communicate them to other Operators, and fabricate new items/parts. If you hand an operator a piece of alien tech and tell that character to do something with it, that Operator will give you a blank look and shrug.

Both O.C.C.'s can make great characters, but in terms of adventuring and combat, I think the Psi-Tech is the stronger class. Psi-Techs are phenomenal pilots of just about anything. They can shut down and hijack all kinds of machines, capturing enemy tech and using it against them. They can open doors and hack computers. They can repair damaged armor and systems for tech-dependent teammates.

Psi-Techs can also be weak in situations where there is little technology for them to exploit. If paired up with a party of wizards and fighting against demons in a low-tech part of the setting, a Psi-Tech will have to rely on whatever tech the character already has.

There's a Psi-Tech who features pretty prominently as a supporting character in Duty's Edge.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:28 pm
  

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Blue_Lion wrote:
If you want a sneaky TW the NinjaTW, but as far as I know it was not updated to match rue. (still has the old TW two skill slot for tech skills.)

This is a problem with a lot of books that came out before RUE, especially the first 12 or so. There was just a discussion about what skills the Temporal Warrior has from WB3. GM and player just have to work together to make some modifications to the skills. The TW Ninja is easy as you can just look at the changes made to the TW from RMB to RUE and try to make similar adjustments.

MadGreenSon wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
This sounds interesting but again I prefer a more diverse group of PCs (MaA, S&A, Mages, Psychics) just so you have access to everything Rifts has to offer. I'm just not sure how long you could keep a campaign like this going but it might be cool for a limited campaign.

In my experience I have better, longer lasting, games when the group has focus. Whether that's similar occupations, or just fully coordinated with everyone to put a group together for a purpose.

Going free for all and letting everyone do whatever leads to short and unsatisfying campaigns in my experience.

I agree with this but a purpose is far better unifying factor than similar OCCs. This also applies to skills and powers too. A group with a diversity of equipment and abilities opens up a wider range of adventure options than a group with a narrow focus of character.

I have told this before but several years back I ran a small group of 4 for about a year and each player chose a human, RUE OCC with no mage. It was a GB, operator, mind melter and something else but it was such a narrow group that there were adventure options that just weren't open to me as the GM.

Zer0 Kay wrote:
I found Madhaven comparatively boring.
I love the "cliché" that the books have. I feel that it gives a familiarity to the world and then twisting them a little makes it "new".

I disagree with your take on Madhaven, I haven't gotten to use it much but I do like it. I kind of agree with the take on cliche' books, I like Japan and England, but my least favorite books are the cliche' and my favorite is the ultimate in weird non-cliche' and that is Atlantis. When Atlantis was first advertised some of my friends were expecting something out of Marvel or DC (Namor or Aqua Man) and we got the Splugorth.

Zer0 Kay wrote:
That isolation and reason for going to those strange places... same reason to go most places in the megaverse... random Rifts.

:ok:

Zer0 Kay wrote:
The three galaxies can't be used for Rifts in space. The way it is now should definately be redone but they can't go as far as phaseworld because the stations and colonies would have no reason not to descend and completely annihilate most of the "alien" invaders.

I have said it before but Rifts space should be more Expanse and less Star Trek.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:24 pm
  

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Warshield73 wrote:
I agree with this but a purpose is far better unifying factor than similar OCCs. This also applies to skills and powers too. A group with a diversity of equipment and abilities opens up a wider range of adventure options than a group with a narrow focus of character.

I have told this before but several years back I ran a small group of 4 for about a year and each player chose a human, RUE OCC with no mage. It was a GB, operator, mind melter and something else but it was such a narrow group that there were adventure options that just weren't open to me as the GM.

I'm pretty sure this is more a difference in GM styles. I keep a lot of control over stuff at the start, tell the players the kind of stuff the game is gonna be about and the kind of things I recommend and what's off the table, that way I get the kind of PCs I need for what I want to run. It works for me and everyone has fun.
Warshield73 wrote:

I disagree with your take on Madhaven, I haven't gotten to use it much but I do like it.

Madhaven is a good book, but you'll only see a lot of use from it if your game is centered around it, as with any location book, such as by having the players be involved with the White Rose or being part of a tribe of mutants, for instance.

Though I suppose being on an expedition from one kingdom or another could be a great setup for a more horror themed game too...
Warshield73 wrote:
I kind of agree with the take on cliche' books,.

With Japan it's barely excusable since apparently the Japanese gods of Shinto told them to do it that way. But England having an Alien Intelligence that is a hardcore SCA gonk is a bit much as is the New West being filled with Wild West theme park actors.

Warshield73 wrote:

I have said it before but Rifts space should be more Expanse and less Star Trek.


The Solar System for Rifts needs a proper rewrite with the tech level and society of the Pre-Rifts planet and the actually obscene amount of resources available in the Solar System in mind. Mutants in Orbit reads like the Great Cataclysm happened in living memory and everyone mostly just hasn't done much since.

Because I agree with you. The Solar System should look like a collision between the Expanse and Eclipse Phase.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 7:20 pm
  

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Killer Cyborg wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:
I love the "cliché" that the books have. I feel that it gives a familiarity to the world and then twisting them a little makes it "new".


And this is why we're enemies.
:p


:shock:
Oh to the heart
:cry:

Whatever. I know you guys just look over, pat me on the head and go "Awwww look so stupid he's cute."

Bah RP is full of cliche:
Tank as the ultimate weapon
Mecha
Cyborgs
MaGiC
Katana
Sword and... Sorcery
Arthur
Dragons
Atlantis
Legends
if nothing was cliche it would be all new and though we may be interested in it because of the wonder... if everything was new there would be no connection to it so there is some degree of cliche that we connect with

what you really hate is the cliche that is so cliche that it is irritating, trite and has lost its original meaning... but all of those in the list to some degree or another have already done that, the newest thing about Rifts was combining fantasy with sci-fi but even that had already been done before Rifts.

_________________
:thwak: you some might think you're a :clown: but you're cool in book :ok: :thwak:--Mecha-Viper

BEST IDEA EVER!!! -- The Galactus Kid

Holy crapy, you're Zer0 Kay?! --TriaxTech

Zer0 Kay is my hero. --Atramentus

The Zer0 of Kay, who started this fray,
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Unread postPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:29 pm
  

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Warshield73 wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
If you want a sneaky TW the NinjaTW, but as far as I know it was not updated to match rue. (still has the old TW two skill slot for tech skills.)

This is a problem with a lot of books that came out before RUE, especially the first 12 or so. There was just a discussion about what skills the Temporal Warrior has from WB3. GM and player just have to work together to make some modifications to the skills. The TW Ninja is easy as you can just look at the changes made to the TW from RMB to RUE and try to make similar adjustments.

MadGreenSon wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
This sounds interesting but again I prefer a more diverse group of PCs (MaA, S&A, Mages, Psychics) just so you have access to everything Rifts has to offer. I'm just not sure how long you could keep a campaign like this going but it might be cool for a limited campaign.

In my experience I have better, longer lasting, games when the group has focus. Whether that's similar occupations, or just fully coordinated with everyone to put a group together for a purpose.

Going free for all and letting everyone do whatever leads to short and unsatisfying campaigns in my experience.

I agree with this but a purpose is far better unifying factor than similar OCCs. This also applies to skills and powers too. A group with a diversity of equipment and abilities opens up a wider range of adventure options than a group with a narrow focus of character.

I have told this before but several years back I ran a small group of 4 for about a year and each player chose a human, RUE OCC with no mage. It was a GB, operator, mind melter and something else but it was such a narrow group that there were adventure options that just weren't open to me as the GM.

Zer0 Kay wrote:
I found Madhaven comparatively boring.
I love the "cliché" that the books have. I feel that it gives a familiarity to the world and then twisting them a little makes it "new".

I disagree with your take on Madhaven, I haven't gotten to use it much but I do like it. I kind of agree with the take on cliche' books, I like Japan and England, but my least favorite books are the cliche' and my favorite is the ultimate in weird non-cliche' and that is Atlantis. When Atlantis was first advertised some of my friends were expecting something out of Marvel or DC (Namor or Aqua Man) and we got the Splugorth.

Zer0 Kay wrote:
That isolation and reason for going to those strange places... same reason to go most places in the megaverse... random Rifts.

:ok:

Zer0 Kay wrote:
The three galaxies can't be used for Rifts in space. The way it is now should definately be redone but they can't go as far as phaseworld because the stations and colonies would have no reason not to descend and completely annihilate most of the "alien" invaders.

I have said it before but Rifts space should be more Expanse and less Star Trek.


I said "comparatively". :)

Warshield73 wrote:
I have said it before but Rifts space should be more Expanse and less Star Trek.

Definately this at best at worst it should be Firefly but in order to fix everything I sense they'll be more Space 1999 and just push the moon and all the tech away... that would kind of make Earth more like Thundar...

Ariel! Ookla! RIDE

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Unread postPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 11:37 pm
  

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Zer0 Kay wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:
I love the "cliché" that the books have. I feel that it gives a familiarity to the world and then twisting them a little makes it "new".


And this is why we're enemies.
:p


:shock:
Oh to the heart
:cry:

Whatever. I know you guys just look over, pat me on the head and go "Awwww look so stupid he's cute."

Bah RP is full of cliche:
Tank as the ultimate weapon
Mecha
Cyborgs
MaGiC
Katana
Sword and... Sorcery
Arthur
Dragons
Atlantis
Legends
if nothing was cliche it would be all new and though we may be interested in it because of the wonder... if everything was new there would be no connection to it so there is some degree of cliche that we connect with

what you really hate is the cliche that is so cliche that it is irritating, trite and has lost its original meaning... but all of those in the list to some degree or another have already done that, the newest thing about Rifts was combining fantasy with sci-fi but even that had already been done before Rifts.

Well said, agree 100%

Zer0 Kay wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
I have said it before but Rifts space should be more Expanse and less Star Trek.

Definately this at best at worst it should be Firefly but in order to fix everything I sense they'll be more Space 1999 and just push the moon and all the tech away...

I disagree with this. I cut Earth off with a combination of massive ley line and dimensional storms surrounding the earth and self replicating orbital weapons system that shoots everything that tries to enter or leave the planet. Small, very stealthy craft can maneuver their way through if they are lucky but it is a risk and too difficult for invaders from space to get to Earth. It's cheese and and conveneint as all ... but it keeps them separate enough while still letting the PCs move between them.

Zer0 Kay wrote:
that would kind of make Earth more like Thundar...

Ariel! Ookla! RIDE

I love a good Thandar reference and with Rifts it always fits.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 7:58 pm
  

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I prefer to keep Rifts as close to the original main books implied N. American setting of humanity barely hanging on in small pockets in an otherwise monster ridden wilderness.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 10:42 pm
  

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Wooly wrote:
I prefer to keep Rifts as close to the original main books implied N. American setting of humanity barely hanging on in small pockets in an otherwise monster ridden wilderness.


Exactly.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 10:44 pm
  

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Killer Cyborg wrote:
Wooly wrote:
I prefer to keep Rifts as close to the original main books implied N. American setting of humanity barely hanging on in small pockets in an otherwise monster ridden wilderness.


Exactly.

Amen.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 12:40 am
  

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MadGreenSon wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Wooly wrote:
I prefer to keep Rifts as close to the original main books implied N. American setting of humanity barely hanging on in small pockets in an otherwise monster ridden wilderness.


Exactly.

Amen.

Yeah...and nah. I can live either way. The views given IIRC were from Tarn and many of those hearsay. So the views given in the RMB are the views of the North American who hasn't traveled. Like ther Europeans believing that America is the East Indies. As soon. As contact with Triax is made it'd blow those views out of the water.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 1:01 am
  

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Zer0 Kay wrote:
MadGreenSon wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Wooly wrote:
I prefer to keep Rifts as close to the original main books implied N. American setting of humanity barely hanging on in small pockets in an otherwise monster ridden wilderness.


Exactly.

Amen.

Yeah...and nah. I can live either way. The views given IIRC were from Tarn and many of those hearsay.


Tarn was the voice of Kevin; it's what the world was intended to be like.
The only ones that were hearsay were the ones that were stated to be.

But that's not the point here; the point is that a lot of us prefer a pretty unpopulated planet that's mostly wilderness and unexplored lands, rather than high-tech cities and magic on every continent and in most every former state or nation.
There's not much point in a post-apocalypse Earth where there's people everywhere, and the setting was MUCH more interesting when mundane humans had to make some pretty rough choices to survive, such as whether to live under Coalition protection, or to to a magic-friendly city where they'd be easy prey and wouldn't be able to compete as well for jobs and such, or try to live in the wilderness, or whether to make some serious sacrifices to be an M&M.
Now there are SO many choices and so many of them aren't that tough, so the setting's lost a lot of it's appeal for some of us, as written.
The original setting gave you a choice of joining the Nazis or joining the Demons/monsters, or trying to survive somewhere in-between the clashing forces.
Now it's like, "Or just go out west where you have inexplicably powerful gear without the baggage" and so forth.
One of the original themes was that power--and even survival--came at a price, and the price has deflated in so many ways it's changed the feel.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:29 am
  

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Killer Cyborg wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:
MadGreenSon wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Wooly wrote:
I prefer to keep Rifts as close to the original main books implied N. American setting of humanity barely hanging on in small pockets in an otherwise monster ridden wilderness.


Exactly.

Amen.

Yeah...and nah. I can live either way. The views given IIRC were from Tarn and many of those hearsay.


Tarn was the voice of Kevin; it's what the world was intended to be like.
The only ones that were hearsay were the ones that were stated to be.

But that's not the point here; the point is that a lot of us prefer a pretty unpopulated planet that's mostly wilderness and unexplored lands, rather than high-tech cities and magic on every continent and in most every former state or nation.
There's not much point in a post-apocalypse Earth where there's people everywhere, and the setting was MUCH more interesting when mundane humans had to make some pretty rough choices to survive, such as whether to live under Coalition protection, or to to a magic-friendly city where they'd be easy prey and wouldn't be able to compete as well for jobs and such, or try to live in the wilderness, or whether to make some serious sacrifices to be an M&M.
Now there are SO many choices and so many of them aren't that tough, so the setting's lost a lot of it's appeal for some of us, as written.
The original setting gave you a choice of joining the Nazis or joining the Demons/monsters, or trying to survive somewhere in-between the clashing forces.
Now it's like, "Or just go out west where you have inexplicably powerful gear without the baggage" and so forth.
One of the original themes was that power--and even survival--came at a price, and the price has deflated in so many ways it's changed the feel.


Also, there's no real choice in NA anymore. The Illinois Nazis are an unstoppable force that already effectively controls the continent whenever they decide to roll their millions and millions of powered armor suits out to go do some genocide.

Speaking of annoying things in World Books. WB 28 Arzno starts talking about this hardcore bunch of vampires and how tough they are on page 125 and then, after giving all the details on them, on page 139 it gives us the "Important Story Note" telling us that all that neato vampire stuff that made them look like a real threat? Not a problem! Those vampires are turbo-screwed because they're gonna screw it all up and die!

Wow. Why bother telling us about these feckless losers then? The PCs won't be needed to turn the tide against evil here, it's handled! Were we supposed to feel bad for the vampires and want to help them or something?


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Unread postPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 10:25 am
  

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MadGreenSon wrote:
The Illinois Nazis are an unstoppable force that already effectively controls the continent whenever they decide to roll their millions and millions of powered armor suits out to go do some genocide.


And yet still take years to roll over a speedbump like Tolkeen.

Quote:
Speaking of annoying things in World Books. WB 28 Arzno starts talking about this hardcore bunch of vampires and how tough they are on page 125 and then, after giving all the details on them, on page 139 it gives us the "Important Story Note" telling us that all that neato vampire stuff that made them look like a real threat? Not a problem! Those vampires are turbo-screwed because they're gonna screw it all up and die!

Wow. Why bother telling us about these feckless losers then? The PCs won't be needed to turn the tide against evil here, it's handled! Were we supposed to feel bad for the vampires and want to help them or something?


lol
I still haven't really read through Arzno much. Sounds like a lot of great ideas, but I haven't gotten around to them yet.
THAT part sounds like it could be ignored for anybody who wants the vamps to be a big deal in NA.
Seems weird.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:19 pm
  

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Killer Cyborg wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:
MadGreenSon wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Wooly wrote:
I prefer to keep Rifts as close to the original main books implied N. American setting of humanity barely hanging on in small pockets in an otherwise monster ridden wilderness.


Exactly.

Amen.

Yeah...and nah. I can live either way. The views given IIRC were from Tarn and many of those hearsay.


Tarn was the voice of Kevin; it's what the world was intended to be like.
The only ones that were hearsay were the ones that were stated to be.

But that's not the point here; the point is that a lot of us prefer a pretty unpopulated planet that's mostly wilderness and unexplored lands, rather than high-tech cities and magic on every continent and in most every former state or nation.
There's not much point in a post-apocalypse Earth where there's people everywhere, and the setting was MUCH more interesting when mundane humans had to make some pretty rough choices to survive, such as whether to live under Coalition protection, or to to a magic-friendly city where they'd be easy prey and wouldn't be able to compete as well for jobs and such, or try to live in the wilderness, or whether to make some serious sacrifices to be an M&M.
Now there are SO many choices and so many of them aren't that tough, so the setting's lost a lot of it's appeal for some of us, as written.
The original setting gave you a choice of joining the Nazis or joining the Demons/monsters, or trying to survive somewhere in-between the clashing forces.
Now it's like, "Or just go out west where you have inexplicably powerful gear without the baggage" and so forth.
One of the original themes was that power--and even survival--came at a price, and the price has deflated in so many ways it's changed the feel.


... I can get behind that.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:22 pm
  

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Killer Cyborg wrote:
MadGreenSon wrote:
The Illinois Nazis are an unstoppable force that already effectively controls the continent whenever they decide to roll their millions and millions of powered armor suits out to go do some genocide.


And yet still take years to roll over a speedbump like Tolkeen.


Hey the CS is a forklift and rolling over speedbumps at high speeds hurts the rider more than the speed bump.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:46 pm
  

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Zer0 Kay wrote:
but in order to fix everything I sense they'll be more Space 1999 and just push the moon and all the tech away... that would kind of make Earth more like Thundar...

Ariel! Ookla! RIDE

Demon Dogs!

No to the Space 1999 solution for two reasons:
1. knocking the Moon out of orbit (on par w/1999 as opposed to something less extensive like altering the orbit around the Earth) would have lots of repurcussions.*
2. You'd also have to find away to get the other Orbital Stations (as is you might just take Lankia), so you really wouldn't solve much

*
Spoiler:
Depending on the Moon gets knocked out you might be sending a hole lot of space junk at the Earth, causing meteor strikes (possibly on par or greater than the Dinosaur killer), but also you have things like in the following links:
https://nineplanets.org/questions/what- ... s-no-moon/
http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/our-so ... on%20Earth.


Warshield73 wrote:
I disagree with this. I cut Earth off with a combination of massive ley line and dimensional storms surrounding the earth and self replicating orbital weapons system that shoots everything that tries to enter or leave the planet. Small, very stealthy craft can maneuver their way through if they are lucky but it is a risk and too difficult for invaders from space to get to Earth. It's cheese and and convenient as all ... but it keeps them separate enough while still letting the PCs move between them.

I think it would just be easier to put the Earth as a type of "Fade Town", out of phase to the surrounding Solar System including the Moon (but still interacting via gravity). No one can seem to Enter/Leave the "Town" via normal means (conventional methods, things like Teleporting or Magic or Psionic are open) just like a Fade Town (WB16 or WB20), unlike the normal Fade Towns in the books, this one has been going for 300 years at least waiting for the next "flux" to pop it back. The only real issue is Archie-3's hijacked satellite (maybe electromagnetic signals can still interact?) and the Arkhons (maybe some came out of FTL and became part of the Fade Town).

Killer Cyborg wrote:
But that's not the point here; the point is that a lot of us prefer a pretty unpopulated planet that's mostly wilderness and unexplored lands, rather than high-tech cities and magic on every continent and in most every former state or nation.

Having High-Tech or Magic Cities isn't really an issue, if we look at NA as a basis, then it stands to reason other continents should have their own version of the CS, FQ, Tolkeen, Lazlo, etc mentioned in the Main Book, Tarns information could be out of date (or she missed stuff or dismissed stuff as to fanciful). Which AFAIK is what we see in places like Europe, Russia, Japan, and South America (China/Australia/Africa I can't comment on). Factor in new races and there should be new magic poping up. Now I can agree the way the West (New West, I can't comment on Spirit West overall other than via the GMG/BoM, nor the BM) seems to break things, but I don't think it actually does. Tech wise New West doesn't really break anything per say, even the classes fit from a "cultural perspective".

MadGreenSon wrote:
Also, there's no real choice in NA anymore. The Illinois Nazis are an unstoppable force that already effectively controls the continent whenever they decide to roll their millions and millions of powered armor suits out to go do some genocide.

Better tell that to Archie-3, because he's said in text to be able to take on the CS and win. The reason why the CS seems like an unstoppable force is because they don't really have a proper check in NA acting to oppose them, those that can operate more in the Shadows (Archie, Republicans, Fed. of Magic) or the CS avoids provoking (like the Atlantis or the 'Bugs) because they know its a fight they can't win (I suspect if Naruni could give them a headache just like Atlantis if a business case could be made).


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Unread postPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 8:25 pm
  

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Killer Cyborg wrote:
And yet still take years to roll over a speedbump like Tolkeen.

I'm pretty sure that's a function of the publication schedule more than anything else.
Killer Cyborg wrote:

lol
I still haven't really read through Arzno much. Sounds like a lot of great ideas, but I haven't gotten around to them yet.
THAT part sounds like it could be ignored for anybody who wants the vamps to be a big deal in NA.
Seems weird.

There's a lot of good stuff in there, it's just that one note makes all the stuff about the big threat in the region a complete non-event. Why even bother going into detail about them if they're such losers?

Personally, I'd go for giving them a much better shot, because otherwise it's a waste of a villain. Weak villains are terrible. Strong heroes need strong villains to make compelling stories. The vampires need to be a legitimate threat if they're going to be there at all. The way it's set up makes them sound like Barney Fife gone evil, talking a big game then shooting themselves in the foot and being out for good.

ShadowLogan wrote:
Better tell that to Archie-3, because he's said in text to be able to take on the CS and win. The reason why the CS seems like an unstoppable force is because they don't really have a proper check in NA acting to oppose them, those that can operate more in the Shadows (Archie, Republicans, Fed. of Magic) or the CS avoids provoking (like the Atlantis or the 'Bugs) because they know its a fight they can't win (I suspect if Naruni could give them a headache just like Atlantis if a business case could be made).

Archie's never gonna do anything that really matters. Because yeah, by rights he should be a huge threat, but he's just... not. He's too busy hating the Splugorth and hiding from everyone and now the Republicans, who also don't really do anything else of note, are also messing with him. He needs to step up his game because other than making robo-waifus for fans to obsess over he ain't been doing his share of villaining.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 2:52 am
  

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I take the "words of Erin Tarn" as nothing more than the fictional character writing about what she's seen, heard about, or just plain extrapolated; since the narrative stuff in the RMB is Erin Tarn's words, it explains why some things were described as they were.
As for books I don't use...
I use things from just about every book; when I run, I ignore most of the Siege on Tolkeen which in my game-world went quite a bit differently. Sure, the CS "won" (about like Santa Ana "won" at the Alamo), but they definitely are weaker after that mess than they were at the start. There are quite a few things I don't use or allow in my campaigns (laser bows, floopers and other "funny" things like that, the flying chief SAMAS or whatever the thing's called, and other stuff that just doesn't make sense).

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Unread postPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:45 am
  

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MadGreenSon wrote:
Archie's never gonna do anything that really matters. Because yeah, by rights he should be a huge threat, but he's just... not. He's too busy hating the Splugorth and hiding from everyone and now the Republicans, who also don't really do anything else of note, are also messing with him. He needs to step up his game because other than making robo-waifus for fans to obsess over he ain't been doing his share of villaining.

I partially agree that Archie isn't going to do much with the current state of affairs and he doesn't have a reason to attack the CS per say, however there are ways he could be dragged into a war with the CS:
1. Archie-3 is identified via his proxies (Shem, TR). MercOps makes it clear in the Titan Heavy Combat Robot writeup that this could lead to discovery/chain-of-events that leads them to Archie-3. And even if the CS doesn't discover it via TR, the Shems are presented as a "D-Bee" power block, one the CS doesn't recognize as having a "Nation" but for the moment is content to leave alone to act as a buffer (they are fighting the Splugorth) but that could change.
2. Archie's idea man is replaced (Hagan can still die of old age, so this might be a long term thing), possibly by someone with an axe to grind against the CS. They just have to convince Archie that the CS has to be dealt with before Atlantis.
3. Republicans gain control of Archie-3 (I can't see them tipping off the CS), IIRC some of their long range plans involve taking control of the CS and they need resources like Archie-3 and/or the NEMA sleeper army. So indirectly Archie is involved.
4. Splugorth manipulate one or both of them into a war. The Shems are a major irritant after all as the Splugorth have started offering bounties on the Shems, so they could do something like that to draw the Shems away and get a good show out of it (CS vs Shem, IIRC the Splugorth get a good show out of some of the conflicts in the past decade or so like the SoT or in Europe).

Republicans are not a military power, but they are a power on the level of "king maker" (IIRC they helped create the CS and/or FQ so their level of "king" is certainly high enough in the long run).

Personally I've never really seen Archie as a villain so that he isn't doing enough villainy things doesn't surprise me really.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2021 2:30 am
  

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Honestly if his idea man decides the CS is a threat Archie would do something.
If he changed his idea man he could have a good reason to fight the CS.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2021 4:59 am
  

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Blue_Lion wrote:
Honestly if his idea man decides the CS is a threat Archie would do something.
If he changed his idea man he could have a good reason to fight the CS.


That's the thing about Archie; he's a Wild Card.
He could be instrumental in the CS fending off an invasion from Atlantis, or he could be responsible for the CS getting destroyed somehow.
He could bring in orbiters, or help fight xiticix, or just do nothing at all.

He's not a big deal in metaplot for this kind of reason; Palladium seems to want him noncommittal, open for anything. But it does often make him a big deal in different campaign-worlds.
It all comes down to how the GMs want to use him, if they want to at all.

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