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Unread postPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2020 8:43 pm
  

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Comment: Golden God
I'm going way back here, but since I just started a campaign based on this, I'm curious what y'all's thoughts on the final threat are. With seven total, four are the Horsemen, Death, Pestilence, Famine, and War. They strongly hint Merlin is one, and the Devouring Swarm is Mechanoids, though inanother campaign, I used Dead Reign zombies.

I do find the xiticix can be substituted for Mechanoids for a real devouring swarm.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2020 11:22 pm
  

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there is a demon frog (toad? I'm not really sure) in australia that might be one of them. I think.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 12:38 am
  

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Comment: Golden God
Yeah, I vaguely recall that. Stand-in for Tsathoggua? The edict left the final one really vague and I get the sense the metanarrative was dropped shortly thereafter.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 7:03 pm
  

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I have always thought that we had few good possibilities for the final threat.

1) The Lord of the Deep from WB 7 Undersea. There is not a lot here but he is one of the most powerful AI's in the game so you can add whatever you want to him.

2) Nixla from WB 12 Psyscape. It is a little to North America centric but he is a truly terrifying creature with a unique power level.

3) I had always planned to use Ahriman from CB2. I had been using demon and deific servants of his to try and let him out and I used a large area of Persia as his kingdom on earth.

Like you said this is so open almost any villain will do.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:13 pm
  

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Comment: Golden God
These are all outstanding ideas.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:51 pm
  

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I always figured Archie would end up being considered one.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 10:08 pm
  

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The Beast wrote:
I always figured Archie would end up being considered one.

Unless ARCHIE has nanites that go full gray goo that fills the world I just don't see him having the power to be this bad. Also, he just isn't that evil.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 11:09 pm
  

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Comment: Golden God
Warshield73 wrote:
The Beast wrote:
I always figured Archie would end up being considered one.

Unless ARCHIE has nanites that go full gray goo that fills the world I just don't see him having the power to be this bad. Also, he just isn't that evil.

Archie with hidden Mechanoid tech from after their defeat, maybe? But he really needs better industrial bases to build his robot hordes.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 12:05 am
  

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The Archie of my game had access to pre-rifts jets similar to the big Triax transport jets that he modified with Mechanoid anti-gravity and stealth tech so yes he can be incredibly powerful but he just isn't written as evil enough in intent or outcome to be included with the likes of THE Four Horsemen.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:53 am
  

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yeah, ARCHIE pretty much wants to rule the world, from what we can tell. that isn't exactly friendly, but it also isn't going to end the world any time soon either.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 12:11 pm
  

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Comment: Golden God
Warshield73 wrote:
The Archie of my game had access to pre-rifts jets similar to the big Triax transport jets that he modified with Mechanoid anti-gravity and stealth tech so yes he can be incredibly powerful but he just isn't written as evil enough in intent or outcome to be included with the likes of THE Four Horsemen.

His biggest issue is his small scale, militarily. He's got impressive tech, but he's still a small player.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 12:32 pm
  

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Shark_Force wrote:
yeah, ARCHIE pretty much wants to rule the world, from what we can tell. that isn't exactly friendly, but it also isn't going to end the world any time soon either.

He even has a protector streak when it comes to humans. He honestly believes people will be better off under his rule. That can be a problem, I mean see Mao, but the Edict is filled with beings or groups that would make Hitler blush.

Misfit KotLD wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
The Archie of my game had access to pre-rifts jets similar to the big Triax transport jets that he modified with Mechanoid anti-gravity and stealth tech so yes he can be incredibly powerful but he just isn't written as evil enough in intent or outcome to be included with the likes of THE Four Horsemen.

His biggest issue is his small scale, militarily. He's got impressive tech, but he's still a small player.

As far as Earth based powers go he is high up there and he is, I believe unless this has changed in a recent book, the tech leader on Earth. So I would put him in the top 5 easy and he is certainly more powerful than say a Mrrlyn. But, when compared to the megaversal level stuff like the Splugorth he is just down there.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 3:38 pm
  

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Comment: Golden God
Warshield73 wrote:
Shark_Force wrote:
yeah, ARCHIE pretty much wants to rule the world, from what we can tell. that isn't exactly friendly, but it also isn't going to end the world any time soon either.

He even has a protector streak when it comes to humans. He honestly believes people will be better off under his rule. That can be a problem, I mean see Mao, but the Edict is filled with beings or groups that would make Hitler blush.

Misfit KotLD wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
The Archie of my game had access to pre-rifts jets similar to the big Triax transport jets that he modified with Mechanoid anti-gravity and stealth tech so yes he can be incredibly powerful but he just isn't written as evil enough in intent or outcome to be included with the likes of THE Four Horsemen.

His biggest issue is his small scale, militarily. He's got impressive tech, but he's still a small player.

As far as Earth based powers go he is high up there and he is, I believe unless this has changed in a recent book, the tech leader on Earth. So I would put him in the top 5 easy and he is certainly more powerful than say a Mrrlyn. But, when compared to the megaversal level stuff like the Splugorth he is just down there.

He'd lose against most everyone big even in North America, I think, by his scale. His tech is beyond all, but his resources aren't. Even RMB CS would take him down in direct conflict, though he'd probably escape to rebuild, like a good comic villain. I'd probably put him and Merlin on the same level, possible big fish down the road, but still small fish right now.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:48 pm
  

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I'd put ARCHIE as definitely above Mrr'lyn.

Mrr'lyn has a few cruddy avatars and a bunch of cruddy mooks that have nothing much special about them. a few hundred people with laser rifles could probably take him down. you might need an extra several hundred if he manages to persuade camelot to do his dirty work, but even then, camelot is not really a major military power.

try sending a few hundred people with laser rifles against ARCHIE and see how *that* works out. he may not have the hundreds of millions, or billions, of robots that he would need to match the biggest powers on rifts earth... but at least you probably couldn't hire larsen's brigade to just steamroll him.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:55 pm
  

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Misfit KotLD wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
Shark_Force wrote:
yeah, ARCHIE pretty much wants to rule the world, from what we can tell. that isn't exactly friendly, but it also isn't going to end the world any time soon either.

He even has a protector streak when it comes to humans. He honestly believes people will be better off under his rule. That can be a problem, I mean see Mao, but the Edict is filled with beings or groups that would make Hitler blush.

Misfit KotLD wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
The Archie of my game had access to pre-rifts jets similar to the big Triax transport jets that he modified with Mechanoid anti-gravity and stealth tech so yes he can be incredibly powerful but he just isn't written as evil enough in intent or outcome to be included with the likes of THE Four Horsemen.

His biggest issue is his small scale, militarily. He's got impressive tech, but he's still a small player.

As far as Earth based powers go he is high up there and he is, I believe unless this has changed in a recent book, the tech leader on Earth. So I would put him in the top 5 easy and he is certainly more powerful than say a Mrrlyn. But, when compared to the megaversal level stuff like the Splugorth he is just down there.

He'd lose against most everyone big even in North America, I think, by his scale. His tech is beyond all, but his resources aren't. Even RMB CS would take him down in direct conflict, though he'd probably escape to rebuild, like a good comic villain. I'd probably put him and Merlin on the same level, possible big fish down the road, but still small fish right now.

Yes the CS, in either form would currently survive him, maybe even beat him but you need to keep some things in mind.

1. No one knows who he his. Today he is attacking you with robot monsters. Tomorrow you get hit by robots that are perfect copies of mechanoids, with even robot versions of Mechanoids themselves. Next week you get hit by a squad of Dyna-bots or even Skelebots. Would you even know it's the same person and if you did would you ever link it to Cyberworks.

2. No one knows where he is, he can hit you and hit you and hitting him back in any meaningful fashion is difficult to impossible.

3. When you count Archies numbers you have to include the Shemarians.

4. Archie can easily increase his numbers, he has the resources and automated factories.

I agree he is not one of THE powers on Rifts Earth but he is way above Mrrlyn and I would say what we know now above Lazlo or even Tolkien before the war. Probably could beat Free Quebec now that I think about it.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:33 pm
  

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Archie has to risk losing his main real line of defense (the secrecy) to actually seriously strike at anyone. the key to his plans is keeping any direct action small enough it fades into the background violence of Rifts. this is a huge restriction and cuts his effective ability down by a lot.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 9:00 am
  

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Misfit KotLD wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
Shark_Force wrote:
yeah, ARCHIE pretty much wants to rule the world, from what we can tell. that isn't exactly friendly, but it also isn't going to end the world any time soon either.

He even has a protector streak when it comes to humans. He honestly believes people will be better off under his rule. That can be a problem, I mean see Mao, but the Edict is filled with beings or groups that would make Hitler blush.

Misfit KotLD wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
The Archie of my game had access to pre-rifts jets similar to the big Triax transport jets that he modified with Mechanoid anti-gravity and stealth tech so yes he can be incredibly powerful but he just isn't written as evil enough in intent or outcome to be included with the likes of THE Four Horsemen.

His biggest issue is his small scale, militarily. He's got impressive tech, but he's still a small player.

As far as Earth based powers go he is high up there and he is, I believe unless this has changed in a recent book, the tech leader on Earth. So I would put him in the top 5 easy and he is certainly more powerful than say a Mrrlyn. But, when compared to the megaversal level stuff like the Splugorth he is just down there.

He'd lose against most everyone big even in North America, I think, by his scale. His tech is beyond all, but his resources aren't. Even RMB CS would take him down in direct conflict, though he'd probably escape to rebuild, like a good comic villain. I'd probably put him and Merlin on the same level, possible big fish down the road, but still small fish right now.

Per Rifts Source Book 1 Revised (pg8) Archie-3 can take on the CS. And I am pretty sure there is another statement somewhere that establishes Archie as being able to take on the CS and win.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 12:01 pm
  

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Comment: Golden God
ShadowLogan wrote:
Per Rifts Source Book 1 Revised (pg8) Archie-3 can take on the CS. And I am pretty sure there is another statement somewhere that establishes Archie as being able to take on the CS and win.
Before or after they became a juggernaut in North America?

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Unread postPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 2:04 pm
  

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Misfit KotLD wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:
Per Rifts Source Book 1 Revised (pg8) Archie-3 can take on the CS. And I am pretty sure there is another statement somewhere that establishes Archie as being able to take on the CS and win.
Before or after they became a juggernaut in North America?

After. The CS has been a juggernaut in NA since at least RMB-era, SB1r IINM is a post SoT thing. And as I said I am pretty sure there is another statement I am just not sure where that statement is. I could have sworn it was a Shem Nation thing, but haven't been able to find it (it was a topic on the forums, but I haven't been able to dig anything up).


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Unread postPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 2:29 pm
  

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Orin J. wrote:
Archie has to risk losing his main real line of defense (the secrecy) to actually seriously strike at anyone. the key to his plans is keeping any direct action small enough it fades into the background violence of Rifts. this is a huge restriction and cuts his effective ability down by a lot.

Not really. Using the techniques I describe, especially Mechanoids and Shemarians, are really unlikely to splash back on him.
ShadowLogan wrote:
Misfit KotLD wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:
Per Rifts Source Book 1 Revised (pg8) Archie-3 can take on the CS. And I am pretty sure there is another statement somewhere that establishes Archie as being able to take on the CS and win.
Before or after they became a juggernaut in North America?

After. The CS has been a juggernaut in NA since at least RMB-era, SB1r IINM is a post SoT thing. And as I said I am pretty sure there is another statement I am just not sure where that statement is. I could have sworn it was a Shem Nation thing, but haven't been able to find it (it was a topic on the forums, but I haven't been able to dig anything up).

Revised SB1 came out after most of the CS stuff. Also keep in mind after the Tolkeen war and the Minion War the CS will be weaker.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 9:25 pm
  

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Comment: Golden God
Warshield73 wrote:
Orin J. wrote:
Archie has to risk losing his main real line of defense (the secrecy) to actually seriously strike at anyone. the key to his plans is keeping any direct action small enough it fades into the background violence of Rifts. this is a huge restriction and cuts his effective ability down by a lot.

Not really. Using the techniques I describe, especially Mechanoids and Shemarians, are really unlikely to splash back on him.
ShadowLogan wrote:
Misfit KotLD wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:
Per Rifts Source Book 1 Revised (pg8) Archie-3 can take on the CS. And I am pretty sure there is another statement somewhere that establishes Archie as being able to take on the CS and win.
Before or after they became a juggernaut in North America?

After. The CS has been a juggernaut in NA since at least RMB-era, SB1r IINM is a post SoT thing. And as I said I am pretty sure there is another statement I am just not sure where that statement is. I could have sworn it was a Shem Nation thing, but haven't been able to find it (it was a topic on the forums, but I haven't been able to dig anything up).

Revised SB1 came out after most of the CS stuff. Also keep in mind after the Tolkeen war and the Minion War the CS will be weaker.
Ah. I may be a bit out of date.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 6:08 pm
  

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Misfit KotLD wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:
Per Rifts Source Book 1 Revised (pg8) Archie-3 can take on the CS. And I am pretty sure there is another statement somewhere that establishes Archie as being able to take on the CS and win.
Before or after they became a juggernaut in North America?


Archie could cause a lot of problems but a purely tech combat force is basically the best possible opponent for the CS and what they are best able to deal with. All it would take to screw archie is for a republican or two to panic and tell the CS where some of the manufacturing bases are. Then archie has the tolkeen issue of being forced to defend a handful of high value targets from a force willing to do whatever it takes to strike it down but this time without magic fields negating the use of LRM/small nukes.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 8:16 pm
  

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kaid wrote:
Misfit KotLD wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:
Per Rifts Source Book 1 Revised (pg8) Archie-3 can take on the CS. And I am pretty sure there is another statement somewhere that establishes Archie as being able to take on the CS and win.
Before or after they became a juggernaut in North America?


Archie could cause a lot of problems but a purely tech combat force is basically the best possible opponent for the CS and what they are best able to deal with. All it would take to screw archie is for a republican or two to panic and tell the CS where some of the manufacturing bases are. Then archie has the tolkeen issue of being forced to defend a handful of high value targets from a force willing to do whatever it takes to strike it down but this time without magic fields negating the use of LRM/small nukes.

As I understand it from Shemarian Nation and SB1 Revised Archie has several facilities and the Republicans only know about his original facility but I could be wrong about that. If this is true though Archie would be very hard to track down. Also, and I still think this is the biggest part. If Archie's greatest asset is deception. He can make incredibly convincing copies of Skelebots, Dyna Bots, and of course Mechanoid robots. He will never need to do a full out attack on anyone. He can pick at and weaken foes through prolonged harassment campaigns.

As for the CS I have to disagree, most of the CS efforts a geared towards combating magic and the supernatural. Dog boys and psi-battalions are just part of the massive investment they have to combat the supernatural and all of these will be no better against Archie than standard human forces but they cost a lot more to produce and train.

Just a few things to note for Archie:
1) He has multiple facilities that he can use to produce troops and use to decoy people away.
2) He has multiple cut-outs. Never mind the things we assume he can make like Skelebots & Dyna-Bots he has a large armies and intelligence networks tied up in Cyberworks and the Shemarians and nobody know the connection.
3) He is nearly immortal, he is planning for the long term. He will not try to take over in the next year or even decade he is looking at the next century.

Like I said early if you were to do a tier list of Rifts Earth Factions Archie would not be "S" but I could easily see him as bottom of A or top of B, again well ahead of places like Lazlo or Free Quebec.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 4:45 pm
  

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Honestly, my view of the fourth danger is that it was left undetailed on purpose for DMs to come up with their own stuf to connect in a number of ways to the previous three (Mechanoid/Devouring Swarm, Horsemen & Mrrlynn).

What we do get of actual info about it is that is more powerful and direct than Zazzshan, probably less powerful/enduring/capable of a comeback than the Mechs or Horsemen (that have the potential for a partial return during the Minion War through Hades' massive use of Death Demons, if memory tricks me not) and would probably show themselves in up to 20 years (counting from 102-103 PA, if memory tricks me not).


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2020 11:18 am
  

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Is there actually an official list of what the dangers are that are referred to?
I know there is the skull in Tolkeen who also refers to them but I never read a list of saying: these are the 7 demons we are referring to.
Or did I kinda miss that?


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2020 12:44 pm
  

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Warshield73 wrote:
I have always thought that we had few good possibilities for the final threat.

1) The Lord of the Deep from WB 7 Undersea. There is not a lot here but he is one of the most powerful AI's in the game so you can add whatever you want to him.

I'm like 99% sure that the LotD is actually a hiding Old One who was awoken during the South America nuclear strike. All the text really pushes me in this direction, it's why I make the LotD my end boss that will see the RIFTS forever closed and Space recolonize the planet.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2020 1:46 pm
  

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Nuristas wrote:
Is there actually an official list of what the dangers are that are referred to?
I know there is the skull in Tolkeen who also refers to them but I never read a list of saying: these are the 7 demons we are referring to.
Or did I kinda miss that?


SB2: Mechanoids, pages 8-9, from where the "Edict of Planetary Distress" title comes in the 1st place.

The Horsemen in Africa and Mrrlyn/Zazshan are pretty clear ones for anyone who ever read the Worldbooks, the "Devouring Swarm" clearly implied, by the sense of immediacy among other things, to mean the Mechanoids, but there's quite decent wiggle room for a DM to define something else, like perhaps the Xiticix as a number of people have suggested, for an alternative.

Main reason i wouldn't use the Lord of Deep for the role of "4th danger" is because he feels more like a "lurking final boss that is immensely powerful but more consolidating/toying with the field than causing a splash and in no real rush to expand" kind of like Atlantis in its own way, than forces like the DoomToasters or the Horsemen. Nyxla and its forces in the Magic Zone from WB12 might be a much closer fit to that frame, i guess.

Archie and the Shemarrians.... that's a pretty good question. When one thinks about it, our favorite psycho Tablet stands in a kind of sweet spot between New Camelot & Atlantis, so honestly could go either way. It and Hagan definitely have the potential, but ironically are also restrained to a degree by their focus in acting as a foil to both the Splugorth and the Republicans. There's also the fact the individual Shemarrians are AIs with memories, identities and personalities their own and fabricated or not, it could lead them and their "society" to take directions completely unplanned by their creators as they grow as people through their interactions with the world.

The Shemarrian Nation is a complete wildcard and that's what i love about them. :-D

As an aside, i tend to correlate the rise of the nation with not only fighting Atlantis, but containing the failed Mechanoid incursion, as it should be noted, it is the part of North America where they come up and expand into, according to the SB itself. Ditto for the quick & short ascension of Robot Control - and Naruni Enterprises - to the war business spotlight in North America.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 5:01 pm
  

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The entire setting of Rifts Earth is a powder keg by design. The great Rifts books are the ones that set the stage for imminent, great, and terrible events for groups to game through. This has led to a great many world-threatening dangers: The Four Horsemen, Xiticix, Mechanoids, Lord of the Deep, Zazshan, Vampire infestations, Gargoyles/Brodkil, the Minion Wars, SoulHarvest, the Splugorth, ARCHIE, the Archons, and a huge range of nasty things that could come through the rifts at any time. If you tallied up all the threats that could scale up to a world-threatening level, you'll wind up with a lot more than what's in the official Edict.

The idea of an edict of planetary distress is interesting, and it's fun to speculate about the interpretation of prophetic visions. I sometimes get the sense that Kevin had a specific vision for where to take Rifts that has morphed over the years in order to create regional powder kegs. I regard the official Edict as an act of propaganda that has some basis but is too vague in its warnings and its call to action to be of any practical use. Rather, I regard it as a political power move by the interventionist factions in Lazlo's government to justify their policies.

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