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 Post subject: WP: Energy Blasts?
Unread postPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:31 am
  

Wanderer

Joined: Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:49 am
Posts: 96
Are there rules somewhere for a WP: Energy Expulsion/Blast?

If not, has anyone made one? It seems weird that a blaster couldn't get more accurate as they leveled up but a gunman could.


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 Post subject: Re: WP: Energy Blasts?
Unread postPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:24 pm
  

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Comment: Rifter Contributer 79, 81,82,83,84
Seems to me characters would already be proficient in their blasts, so no.

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 Post subject: Re: WP: Energy Blasts?
Unread postPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:22 pm
  

Wanderer

Joined: Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:49 am
Posts: 96
zerombr wrote:
Seems to me characters would already be proficient in their blasts, so no.


But they don't get better with them. I mean, sure, it could be they get a bonus to strike as they level up.

But what's the rationale behind allowing them to get better with a gun but not an energy blast?


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 Post subject: Re: WP: Energy Blasts?
Unread postPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:28 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Tywyll wrote:
zerombr wrote:
Seems to me characters would already be proficient in their blasts, so no.


But they don't get better with them. I mean, sure, it could be they get a bonus to strike as they level up.

But what's the rationale behind allowing them to get better with a gun but not an energy blast?

If I recall the targeting bonus applies to stuff like this.
But I can't say if that is in a book someplace of if it is a house rule that has been around so long I'm conflating it with canon.

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 Post subject: Re: WP: Energy Blasts?
Unread postPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:24 pm
  

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I think it is a house rule, but one we have used. You had to practice with your eye blast or whatever to get the benefit, not just practice throwing darts and automatically improve your eye blast.

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 Post subject: Re: WP: Energy Blasts?
Unread postPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:10 am
  

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Palladin

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Comment: 24 was the start... We are Legion.
I also house rule it. Generally I give it the same as WP Energy pistol/rifle.

But yes, the logic holds, that the longer you have your Energy Expulsion, the better you get at hitting what you're aiming at.

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 Post subject: Re: WP: Energy Blasts?
Unread postPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:48 am
  

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Hero

Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2007 11:11 pm
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I am reminded of a NPC presented in the GM Guide and one of the Rifters... I believe her name was Shock or something like that. If I remember correctly, she used her Secondary Skills to purchase proficiency in her powers, which did include an Energy Expulsion power. Don't remember the specifics of the character well enough (or have access to my books at the moment to double check), but I would suggest checking it out for ideas about this sort of idea.

She was in the adventure that involved her stealing the plans for an experimental power enhancer (though it only worked for energy related powers) and was using other villains to steal the plans and parts she needed to build them so that she could use them in an even bigger heist (on a government facility if I remember correctly).

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 Post subject: Re: WP: Energy Blasts?
Unread postPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:34 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Razorwing wrote:
I am reminded of a NPC presented in the GM Guide and one of the Rifters... I believe her name was Shock or something like that. If I remember correctly, she used her Secondary Skills to purchase proficiency in her powers, which did include an Energy Expulsion power. Don't remember the specifics of the character well enough (or have access to my books at the moment to double check), but I would suggest checking it out for ideas about this sort of idea.

She was in the adventure that involved her stealing the plans for an experimental power enhancer (though it only worked for energy related powers) and was using other villains to steal the plans and parts she needed to build them so that she could use them in an even bigger heist (on a government facility if I remember correctly).

HU GMG page 123
I had totally missed that previously!
Yes, WP Super Power (one power) +1 to strike at 3,6,9,11

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 Post subject: Re: WP: Energy Blasts?
Unread postPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:35 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: 24 was the start... We are Legion.
The write up says she gave up three skills to gain profeciency in her powers, to get the bonuses.

It could be read that each super power WP needs 3 skills (Meaning 9 total)

Or..

That she gave up three skills and got the WP in each of her three powers in the exchange (3 skills total)

Thing is one of her powers is absorption. I'm not sure that needs a WP....

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 Post subject: Re: WP: Energy Blasts?
Unread postPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:10 pm
  

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Pepsi Jedi wrote:
The write up says she gave up three skills to gain profeciency in her powers, to get the bonuses.

It could be read that each super power WP needs 3 skills (Meaning 9 total)

Or..

That she gave up three skills and got the WP in each of her three powers in the exchange (3 skills total)

Thing is one of her powers is absorption. I'm not sure that needs a WP....


I'm thinking it's the former method, but one could try figuring out how many skills she should have vs how many she actually does have and thereby find out the correct method.


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 Post subject: Re: WP: Energy Blasts?
Unread postPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:56 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
The Beast wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:
The write up says she gave up three skills to gain profeciency in her powers, to get the bonuses.

It could be read that each super power WP needs 3 skills (Meaning 9 total)

Or..

That she gave up three skills and got the WP in each of her three powers in the exchange (3 skills total)

Thing is one of her powers is absorption. I'm not sure that needs a WP....


I'm thinking it's the former method, but one could try figuring out how many skills she should have vs how many she actually does have and thereby find out the correct method.

Considering that the skill is identical to a standard WP (+1 to strike 4 times) it should be pretty obvious it does not cost three skill slots per selection...
Combined with some basic reading "gave up three skills to learn X for her Y" its pretty clear that she spent skill 1 for power 1, skill 2 for power 2 and skill 3 for power 3. Yes, this does mean she has +4 to strike with Absorption.

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The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


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 Post subject: Re: WP: Energy Blasts?
Unread postPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 2:57 am
  

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Palladin

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Comment: 24 was the start... We are Legion.
Thing is it's NOT an ordinary thing. It's super powers, and not in the skills section so you simply don't know.

And I have basic reading but my point remains.

If it gives +4 to strike with absorption, would that be..

Draining a car battery or other inanimate object, via touch?
Discharging energy into an inanimate object , again via touch, (Neither of which require a roll to strike, as.. it's via touch and on an inanimate object)
The energy flash which is an area affect that specifically says you can't aim,
Glowing
Or the flash light??

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 Post subject: Re: WP: Energy Blasts?
Unread postPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 5:56 am
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Thing is it's NOT an ordinary thing. It's super powers, and not in the skills section so you simply don't know.

ummm huh?
this is listed in her skills.
And it provides the identical bonus as most W.P.s
Ergo... it would appear to be, in point of fact... a skill.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
And I have basic reading but my point remains.

My point was that it said "gave up three skills to gain proficiency in each of her three powers"
that is pretty explicit that you do X to get Y.
If it were the other way it would say "gave up nine skills to gain proficiency in each of her three powers" or "She gave up three skills each to gain proficiency with her 3 powers"
since it is saying "she paid X to gain Y" which is not a fraction. You do not pay ALL of X for only part of Y.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
If it gives +4 to strike with absorption, would that be..

Draining a car battery or other inanimate object, via touch?
Discharging energy into an inanimate object , again via touch, (Neither of which require a roll to strike, as.. it's via touch and on an inanimate object)
The energy flash which is an area affect that specifically says you can't aim,
Glowing
Or the flash light??


How about +4 to strike with her "Shoot light beam" which is a non AoE attack that has a special effect if you can make a called shot with it... with her PP bonus she is now looking at +5 to strike on her called shot. Assuming that "the face" is still -5 as found in the CoMW to strike that neatly puts her back at only needing to roll an 8+ instead of a 13+ to hit. I dunno about you, but I think that sounds like a pretty handy +4 strike bonus.

The +4 may (or may not) apply to strike rolls made to 'touch' something (I would personally say 'no' but who knows what the author intended)

We can pretty conclusively get the accurate cost simply by noting that she is not missing 9 skills as she has a fairly normal skill load out which would not be the case if she were missing two entire skill programs worth of skills. 23 to be exact.

_________________
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


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 Post subject: Re: WP: Energy Blasts?
Unread postPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:56 pm
  

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Explorer

Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:00 pm
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i know energy blasts usually use your HTH bonus to hit, despite being ranged attacks.....wouldn't that mean rather than a weapon proficiency, skills to improve your ability to direct natural energy blasts would be filed under martial arts? ....."The human torch school of directed energy powers and flight"?

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 Post subject: Re: WP: Energy Blasts?
Unread postPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:55 pm
  

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Orin J. wrote:
i know energy blasts usually use your HTH bonus to hit, despite being ranged attacks.....wouldn't that mean rather than a weapon proficiency, skills to improve your ability to direct natural energy blasts would be filed under martial arts? ....."The human torch school of directed energy powers and flight"?

I didn't think hand to hand bonuses translated to natural energy blasts.

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 Post subject: Re: WP: Energy Blasts?
Unread postPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:45 am
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Orin J. wrote:
i know energy blasts usually use your HTH bonus to hit, despite being ranged attacks.....wouldn't that mean rather than a weapon proficiency, skills to improve your ability to direct natural energy blasts would be filed under martial arts? ....."The human torch school of directed energy powers and flight"?

Generally you don't get your H2H bonus
Super powers use PP + 1d20 + anything in the super power itself.
Ranged Combat uses the firearms rules (since they are not a melee attack...) which are even harsher at 1d20 + Skill + situational - Penalties
There aren't a lot of sources of energy blasts that are not super powers nor considered 'ranged attacks'

This would be filed the same place that any other combat training would be...
Either a W.P. or a Physical Skill depending on how you want to term it (the results will be the same though)

_________________
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


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 Post subject: Re: WP: Energy Blasts?
Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:02 pm
  

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Palladin

Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 3:11 am
Posts: 8440
Location: Northern Gun
Comment: 24 was the start... We are Legion.
eliakon wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Thing is it's NOT an ordinary thing. It's super powers, and not in the skills section so you simply don't know.

ummm huh?
this is listed in her skills.
And it provides the identical bonus as most W.P.s
Ergo... it would appear to be, in point of fact... a skill.


Ok smart guy, Point to the page in HU or Any HU product where the skill is listed and or described, AS a skill. And not just found on ___ONE___ char among HUNDREDS.

Is it in the HU Weapon preference section? No?
Is it in HU at all?

Or is it one thing found on one char that seems to be, the only character in the entire HU universe that has managed to 'train' with her superpowers?

eliakon wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
And I have basic reading but my point remains.

My point was that it said "gave up three skills to gain proficiency in each of her three powers"
that is pretty explicit that you do X to get Y.
If it were the other way it would say "gave up nine skills to gain proficiency in each of her three powers" or "She gave up three skills each to gain proficiency with her 3 powers"
since it is saying "she paid X to gain Y" which is not a fraction. You do not pay ALL of X for only part of Y.


Well that's the thing about the English language Eli. It could mean both. As it's NOT a standard skill, found in any skill section in any book, you don't know. it could be that training in super powers as a weapon preference is harder. As...this char seems to be the only one that's ___EVER___ Pulled it off. Yes you CAN say it as "Gave up 9" or "Gave up three skills each" but you could ALSO type it the way it is.

While I agree it's -likely- that it's a one for one, it's open to interpretation and in part, doesn't make much sense.

eliakon wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
If it gives +4 to strike with absorption, would that be..

Draining a car battery or other inanimate object, via touch?
Discharging energy into an inanimate object , again via touch, (Neither of which require a roll to strike, as.. it's via touch and on an inanimate object)
The energy flash which is an area affect that specifically says you can't aim,
Glowing
Or the flash light??


How about +4 to strike with her "Shoot light beam" which is a non AoE attack that has a special effect if you can make a called shot with it... with her PP bonus she is now looking at +5 to strike on her called shot. Assuming that "the face" is still -5 as found in the CoMW to strike that neatly puts her back at only needing to roll an 8+ instead of a 13+ to hit. I dunno about you, but I think that sounds like a pretty handy +4 strike bonus.


If you need a +4 to strike with a flash light, I'm not sure what to tell ya. Seems like a waste of a skill to me. I don't think someone is sitting around absorbing energy and then practicing with their flash light ability.... but dumber things happen I suppose.

eliakon wrote:


The +4 may (or may not) apply to strike rolls made to 'touch' something (I would personally say 'no' but who knows what the author intended)

We can pretty conclusively get the accurate cost simply by noting that she is not missing 9 skills as she has a fairly normal skill load out which would not be the case if she were missing two entire skill programs worth of skills. 23 to be exact.


Why would she be missing 23?

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 Post subject: Re: WP: Energy Blasts?
Unread postPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 7:25 pm
  

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Adventurer

Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:46 pm
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Location: "The Guides to the Megaverse(tm)" Podcast
Comment: Rifter Contributer 79, 81,82,83,84
you guys are reading way way way too into it. Someone who created the char thought it'd be fun to give her something for skill, justified it to some extent, didn't lay out anything else, and went on their way. Thats all there is to it.

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Author of "Setting the Stage" - Rifter 79, "Hitting the Streets" - Rifter 81, "Hitting the Gym" - Rifter 82
"Saving the World", and "On the Hunt" - Rifter 83
and lastly, my baby, my long term project... The Dark City of Cascade - Rifter 84.


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 Post subject: Re: WP: Energy Blasts?
Unread postPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2019 3:11 pm
  

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Palladin

Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 3:11 am
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Location: Northern Gun
Comment: 24 was the start... We are Legion.
zerombr wrote:
you guys are reading way way way too into it. Someone who created the char thought it'd be fun to give her something for skill, justified it to some extent, didn't lay out anything else, and went on their way. Thats all there is to it.


I'm 100% sure that's -exactly- what it is.

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James Tiberius Kirk: Well, not _only_...


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 Post subject: Re: WP: Energy Blasts?
Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 9:47 pm
  

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Palladin

Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Posts: 9481
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Pepsi Jedi wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Thing is it's NOT an ordinary thing. It's super powers, and not in the skills section so you simply don't know.

ummm huh?
this is listed in her skills.
And it provides the identical bonus as most W.P.s
Ergo... it would appear to be, in point of fact... a skill.


Ok smart guy, Point to the page in HU or Any HU product where the skill is listed and or described, AS a skill. And not just found on ___ONE___ char among HUNDREDS.

Is it in the HU Weapon preference section? No?
Is it in HU at all?

Or is it one thing found on one char that seems to be, the only character in the entire HU universe that has managed to 'train' with her superpowers?

It is right here as a skill.
Which is where we find lots of other skills... no big deal plenty of other skills show up one time in a characters skill list.
The argument that skills only exist if they are found in the skill section of a book is a non-starter as we have LOTS of canonical skills that are not found in the skill section.
So this argument is basically worthless
More to the point...
if it ISNT a skill... then what is it? :lol:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
eliakon wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
And I have basic reading but my point remains.

My point was that it said "gave up three skills to gain proficiency in each of her three powers"
that is pretty explicit that you do X to get Y.
If it were the other way it would say "gave up nine skills to gain proficiency in each of her three powers" or "She gave up three skills each to gain proficiency with her 3 powers"
since it is saying "she paid X to gain Y" which is not a fraction. You do not pay ALL of X for only part of Y.


Well that's the thing about the English language Eli. It could mean both. As it's NOT a standard skill, found in any skill section in any book, you don't know. it could be that training in super powers as a weapon preference is harder. As...this char seems to be the only one that's ___EVER___ Pulled it off. Yes you CAN say it as "Gave up 9" or "Gave up three skills each" but you could ALSO type it the way it is.

While I agree it's -likely- that it's a one for one, it's open to interpretation and in part, doesn't make much sense.

It doesn't seem open to interpretation at all no...
for the reason I pointed out. Simply repeating the same argument that "even though the grammar doesn't support that, I want it to" doesn't change things... argument from repetition isn't proof.
Or we could simply run a logic test.
Hmmm, lets see... WP level training with one super power... is there ANY reason to believe that is as complicated as Exreme Robotiphile? Stalking? An AT Program?
Then why should we accept the claim that this WP level training costs the same as other advanced 3 slot skills... when it is statistically "W.P. Super Power" AND the grammar is explicit AND we can do the math...
And no, "because I want it to be more expensive and will ignore all other material" isn't a reason nor is "because I said so"
Pepsi Jedi wrote:
eliakon wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
If it gives +4 to strike with absorption, would that be..

Draining a car battery or other inanimate object, via touch?
Discharging energy into an inanimate object , again via touch, (Neither of which require a roll to strike, as.. it's via touch and on an inanimate object)
The energy flash which is an area affect that specifically says you can't aim,
Glowing
Or the flash light??


How about +4 to strike with her "Shoot light beam" which is a non AoE attack that has a special effect if you can make a called shot with it... with her PP bonus she is now looking at +5 to strike on her called shot. Assuming that "the face" is still -5 as found in the CoMW to strike that neatly puts her back at only needing to roll an 8+ instead of a 13+ to hit. I dunno about you, but I think that sounds like a pretty handy +4 strike bonus.


If you need a +4 to strike with a flash light, I'm not sure what to tell ya. Seems like a waste of a skill to me. I don't think someone is sitting around absorbing energy and then practicing with their flash light ability.... but dumber things happen I suppose.

If you feel that having the ability to consistently hit with your attacks is dumb then that is on you.
The attack is not "a flash light" it is a blinding attack that requires a called shot though. So if your going to dismiss it try and dismiss what it is, not something it is not.
And as I pointed out the math doesn't change.
But hey, maybe you like the odds of having to roll a n13 instead of a n8 for your attacks to work...if you do then don't take the skill.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
eliakon wrote:


The +4 may (or may not) apply to strike rolls made to 'touch' something (I would personally say 'no' but who knows what the author intended)

We can pretty conclusively get the accurate cost simply by noting that she is not missing 9 skills as she has a fairly normal skill load out which would not be the case if she were missing two entire skill programs worth of skills. 23 to be exact.


Why would she be missing 23?

she isn't missing 23 skills
She has 23 skills, which is not a possible count if she were missing 2 full skill programs as there is no possible way to arrive at the number of skills she has if she were short 9 skills... there isn't a build that would let her have 32 skills. 26 skills though IS possible.
The math seems to pretty solidly then solve the 'dilemma' by making it mathematically impossible for her to have payed 9 skill slots.

_________________
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


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