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Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 7:56 pm
  

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Monk

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Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
Though I will note if you do have several hundred SDC, and a low level EE is only doing 3d6 or so, then you can actually choose to NOT dodge and just close distance.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 1:51 am
  

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Palladin

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Comment: 24 was the start... We are Legion.
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Big Strong Dude:

I smash you with my mega-super-fist!!!!!!

Me:

I parry. I take no damage. And i still have all my attacks per round. Parrying is free, after all.

Big Strong Dude:

.... well played sir.

Conversely:

Energy Expulsion Guy:

I blast you from several hundred feet away.

Me:

I try to dodge. Hope i succeed. Hope i have more attacks than you do.

Chances are good i never get to actually attack, even if i successfully take no damage. (Which isnt likely as you're at a penalty to dodge energy blasts and bullets, and maybe even straight dice rolls + penalties, i dont recall the Heroes canon rule for this at the moment).

Him:

Suck it, blue.

Trust me, its balanced just fine.

At first level they already do as much damage as a handgun. And it only goes up from there. You have to spend attacks dodging energy blast fire, whereas i can parry all day every day and make that tanky guy do zero damage.

The likeyhood of him having high damage bonuses AND high strike and parry bonuses is quite slim; depending on how i'm built, im probably going to parry his attacks ~60-70% of the time (hes swinging fists, im parrying with weapons).

I mean, im not saying the super strong guy is useless, but ignoring range as a factor is silly, and ignoring the fact that it is ABSURDLY easier to mitigate melee damage than it is ranged, particularly ranged ENERGY damage.

Theyre fairly easily balanced.

And if i have a flight power (2 or 3 of which are Minor powers as well) to go with my EE power? LOL big guy, youll never touch me.


This made me smile.

Well done, sir. Well done.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:00 am
  

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Palladin

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Comment: 24 was the start... We are Legion.
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Though I will note if you do have several hundred SDC, and a low level EE is only doing 3d6 or so, then you can actually choose to NOT dodge and just close distance.


Well in theory the person that's not made of rock is going to likely be faster, and able to 'maintain distance'. Most especially, with all things being equal, his speed is reduced by half in stone form.

For Example, for every one step the stone man takes towards the blaster, the blaster can take two back.

Or.. For every melee action that the stone guy takes closing distance, the Blaster can shoot, then scoot on the 'second' action, just to maintain distance. He's moving twice as fast as the Stone guy. The stone guy's base speed would need to be DOUBLE that of the blaster, for the blaster to be able to 'maintain' distance with equal action expenditures. The stone man's speed would need to be -more- than double that of the blasters, if he wants to close the distance.

Unlikely with out yet another power stacked up against our EE guy.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:14 am
  

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Demon Lord Extraordinaire

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Comment: You probably think this comment is about you, don't you?
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Chances are good i never get to actually attack, even if i successfully take no damage. (Which isnt likely as you're at a penalty to dodge energy blasts and bullets, and maybe even straight dice rolls + penalties, i dont recall the Heroes canon rule for this at the moment).


I think only normal people have any sort of dodge penalty against energy blasts in HU.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:21 pm
  

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Monk

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Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Though I will note if you do have several hundred SDC, and a low level EE is only doing 3d6 or so, then you can actually choose to NOT dodge and just close distance.


Well in theory the person that's not made of rock is going to likely be faster, and able to 'maintain distance'. Most especially, with all things being equal, his speed is reduced by half in stone form.

For Example, for every one step the stone man takes towards the blaster, the blaster can take two back.

Or.. For every melee action that the stone guy takes closing distance, the Blaster can shoot, then scoot on the 'second' action, just to maintain distance. He's moving twice as fast as the Stone guy. The stone guy's base speed would need to be DOUBLE that of the blaster, for the blaster to be able to 'maintain' distance with equal action expenditures. The stone man's speed would need to be -more- than double that of the blasters, if he wants to close the distance.

Unlikely with out yet another power stacked up against our EE guy.


In theory.

In practice, APS stone is about the only power that provides loads of SDC and does impact Spd. Someone with Invunerability is both immune to energy AND has several hundred SDC, and no speed penalty. Or you know, just someone who takes Stone and Extraordiarny speed, which are not mutually incompatible. half of 120 MPH is still going to zip right up to anyone who doesn't have also a speed or flight power.

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Sometimes, you're like a beacon of light in the darkness, giving me some hope for humankind. ~ Killer Cyborg

You can have something done good, fast and cheap. If you want it done good and fast, it's not going to be cheap. If you want it done fast and cheap it won't be good. If you want something done good and cheap it won't be done fast. ~ Dark Brandon


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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 4:08 pm
  

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Palladin

Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:33 pm
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Comment: Yeah yeah yeah just give me my damn XP already :)
True but again at that point it looks like purpose built twink character. So if course such will seem to make ee not so good.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 5:35 pm
  

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Monk

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Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
jaymz wrote:
True but again at that point it looks like purpose built twink character. So if course such will seem to make ee not so good.


If One major and one minor that go well togeather is defined a twinking, then your definition of twinking is so broad as to be functionally meaningless.

As I said, EE by itself can never be compared to a Major+Minor unless one pairs E.E. WIth an appropriate major.

I was merely refuting Colonel Tetsuya's point that someone with a ranged attacks can make slow bricks waste turns dodging. Not all bricks are slow, and not all bricks will bother to dodge. I wasn't saying being Bricky was twinkish, I was just saying the guy with E.E. needs more than one trick because his opponents will too.

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Sometimes, you're like a beacon of light in the darkness, giving me some hope for humankind. ~ Killer Cyborg

You can have something done good, fast and cheap. If you want it done good and fast, it's not going to be cheap. If you want it done fast and cheap it won't be good. If you want something done good and cheap it won't be done fast. ~ Dark Brandon


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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 5:48 pm
  

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Palladin

Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:33 pm
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Comment: Yeah yeah yeah just give me my damn XP already :)
I meant if you're purposefully doing that to negate the downside of stone then it is a matter of twinking (ie minmaxing to some degree)

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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 6:20 pm
  

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Palladin

Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 3:11 am
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Location: Northern Gun
Comment: 24 was the start... We are Legion.
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Though I will note if you do have several hundred SDC, and a low level EE is only doing 3d6 or so, then you can actually choose to NOT dodge and just close distance.


Well in theory the person that's not made of rock is going to likely be faster, and able to 'maintain distance'. Most especially, with all things being equal, his speed is reduced by half in stone form.

For Example, for every one step the stone man takes towards the blaster, the blaster can take two back.

Or.. For every melee action that the stone guy takes closing distance, the Blaster can shoot, then scoot on the 'second' action, just to maintain distance. He's moving twice as fast as the Stone guy. The stone guy's base speed would need to be DOUBLE that of the blaster, for the blaster to be able to 'maintain' distance with equal action expenditures. The stone man's speed would need to be -more- than double that of the blasters, if he wants to close the distance.

Unlikely with out yet another power stacked up against our EE guy.


In theory.

In practice, APS stone is about the only power that provides loads of SDC and does impact Spd. Someone with Invunerability is both immune to energy AND has several hundred SDC, and no speed penalty. Or you know, just someone who takes Stone and Extraordiarny speed, which are not mutually incompatible. half of 120 MPH is still going to zip right up to anyone who doesn't have also a speed or flight power.


*Chuckles* Which is why I said "Unlikely with out yet ANOTHER power stacked up against our EE guy.

As you accurately pointed out above, two minors and a major against one Minor isn't really a fair comparison. Adding another minor to the mix just makes it that much worse.

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Lt. Nyota Uhura: I'm impressed. For a moment there, I thought you were just a dumb hick who only has sex with farm animals.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:25 pm
  

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Monk

Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2003 7:22 pm
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Location: 2nd Degree Black Belt of Post Fu
Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
jaymz wrote:
I meant if you're purposefully doing that to negate the downside of stone then it is a matter of twinking (ie minmaxing to some degree)


Again, if any degree of trying to make powers that compliment one another is twinking, then your definition of twinking is so broad as to be meaningless.

_________________
Sometimes, you're like a beacon of light in the darkness, giving me some hope for humankind. ~ Killer Cyborg

You can have something done good, fast and cheap. If you want it done good and fast, it's not going to be cheap. If you want it done fast and cheap it won't be good. If you want something done good and cheap it won't be done fast. ~ Dark Brandon


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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:25 pm
  

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Palladin

Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:33 pm
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Location: Peterborough, Ontario
Comment: Yeah yeah yeah just give me my damn XP already :)
Hardly, doing as you suggest is pretty much the definition of min-maxing to get the best effect.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 2:17 am
  

Champion

Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:22 am
Posts: 1953
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
jaymz wrote:
True but again at that point it looks like purpose built twink character. So if course such will seem to make ee not so good.


If One major and one minor that go well togeather is defined a twinking, then your definition of twinking is so broad as to be functionally meaningless.

As I said, EE by itself can never be compared to a Major+Minor unless one pairs E.E. WIth an appropriate major.

I was merely refuting Colonel Tetsuya's point that someone with a ranged attacks can make slow bricks waste turns dodging. Not all bricks are slow, and not all bricks will bother to dodge. I wasn't saying being Bricky was twinkish, I was just saying the guy with E.E. needs more than one trick because his opponents will too.


To be fair, i was only pointing out that EE is not useless, and doesn’t need to be “fixed”, i was NOT stating that big guys are useless.

Just that they have their limits. The OP was playing all of the strengths of the big guy with none of the weaknesses.

If big, hulking brute closes on you, you might get smashed to bits. Working as intended.
If a guy with EE plays his range advantage, he might blast you to death before you can even hurt him. Also working as intended, and, as far as Palladium goes, as balanced as it gets.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:52 am
  

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Palladin

Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:33 pm
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Location: Peterborough, Ontario
Comment: Yeah yeah yeah just give me my damn XP already :)
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
jaymz wrote:
True but again at that point it looks like purpose built twink character. So if course such will seem to make ee not so good.


If One major and one minor that go well togeather is defined a twinking, then your definition of twinking is so broad as to be functionally meaningless.

As I said, EE by itself can never be compared to a Major+Minor unless one pairs E.E. WIth an appropriate major.

I was merely refuting Colonel Tetsuya's point that someone with a ranged attacks can make slow bricks waste turns dodging. Not all bricks are slow, and not all bricks will bother to dodge. I wasn't saying being Bricky was twinkish, I was just saying the guy with E.E. needs more than one trick because his opponents will too.


To be fair, i was only pointing out that EE is not useless, and doesn’t need to be “fixed”, i was NOT stating that big guys are useless.

Just that they have their limits. The OP was playing all of the strengths of the big guy with none of the weaknesses.

If big, hulking brute closes on you, you might get smashed to bits. Working as intended.
If a guy with EE plays his range advantage, he might blast you to death before you can even hurt him. Also working as intended, and, as far as Palladium goes, as balanced as it gets.



we may be disagreeing elsewhere but on this we agree. The OP is downplaying EE versus his purpose built big guy.

Arguing SuperStrength is better and more useful than EE because he can throw to have range, can carry people and pick up things etc....

Well then i guess me having hands makes them better than a 9mm bereta because well I can throw things, carry people and pick up things.

_________________
I am very opinionated. Yes I rub people the wrong way but at the end of the day I just enjoy good hard discussion and will gladly walk away agreeing to not agree :D

Email - jlaflamme7521@hotmail.com, Facebook - Jaymz LaFlamme, Robotech.com - Icerzone

\m/


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