Rifter #77, Four new super powers!

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Rifter #77, Four new super powers!

Unread post by Glistam »

Anyone else recieve their copy of Rifter 77 and get underwhelmed at the four "new" powers? I think the only one I thought was a decent addition to Heroes Unlimited was the Armor: Insect Exoskeleton major power. The other three powers (Flight: Insect (minor power), Leaping (minor power), and Superhuman Leaping (major power)) just seemed redundant and unnecessary compared to Flight: Winged and the PU1 power of Leaping.

I'm sure part of my issue is that I had high expectations when I got the issue specifically because of the "official" Heroes Unlimited content. I would say that if you're planning to get the Rifter for these new powers, don't.
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Re: Rifter #77, Four new super powers!

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

just hearing the names I am underwhelmed.

similar canon powers
Winged flight
Bio Armor
Leaping

The stated rifter powers seam to be mostly 'thematic' then 'new.'
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Re: Rifter #77, Four new super powers!

Unread post by Glistam »

Only Armor: Insect Exoskeleton brought anything truely new to the table. The Flight power mentions that the NPC who has it can jump further because of the power - that would've been much better as a general note and not an NPC specific note.
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Re: Rifter #77, Four new super powers!

Unread post by Stone Gargoyle »

I thought there were already a Flight: Insect and Leaping power in the Powers Unlimited books already. Or am I just mistaken?
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Re: Rifter #77, Four new super powers!

Unread post by Glistam »

Stone Gargoyle wrote:I thought there were already a Flight: Insect and Leaping power in the Powers Unlimited books already. Or am I just mistaken?

Nope, you're correct. The Flight: Insect in the Rifter 77 is more like the Winged Flight power from the main book though - just much less impressive.
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Re: Rifter #77, Four new super powers!

Unread post by Reagren Wright »

Must admit I too was a little disappointed in the super powers. This has happened
before. The insect armor is kind of cool, but the other three are repeats :( Just like
we now have two Portal power (PU 3 and Armageddon Unlimited) now we have two
flying insect wings abilities and two leaping powers. The two characters are not bad
and I like the improvements on Doc Feral (never understood how he was scrupulous
for so long in the first place). I'm working on several HU manuscripts for the Rifter
guys, hopefully one of them get in. One manuscript will have some real new
powers in it, hopeful they can get the official status.
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Re: Rifter #77, Four new super powers!

Unread post by Daniel Stoker »

Yeah, they sound pretty redundant/meh to me.


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Re: Rifter #77, Four new super powers!

Unread post by Pepsi Jedi »

Normally I'd say "Well it's kinda like the different EE powers. Shooting a fireball is different than a laser, that's different from a plasma bolt"

In this case, it's almost like Kevin himself forgot there were already powers for some of these.

Flight insect from the Rifter... Already covered by "Flight Winged" in HU. Roughly 30% of flight winged, wing type is "insect". It's three times faster and better all around.

This isn't a case of cosmetic change but just..... two minor powers. One is just... crappy and the other is better in every way. I guess you could relate it to "Extraordinary strength" and "Superhuman strength". Not every hero flys at the same speed but I'd be pretty upset to get the one from the Rifter and some other guy have the one from HU.

More over we have "Flight: Insect" Already as an official power. And it's better than the one in the rifter too. Infact it could be easily argued that "Flight insect" from PU1 'should' be a major power, As you get "Shrink" along with the flight power.

The Jumping powers are even worse. The Minor version is less than the one from PU1, it's less than most people factor in for normal running and jumping for people (Heroes or not)
PU1's "Enhanced leaping" beats it out, in detail and application. The 'Major" power from the Rifter, is more or less the equivalent of the MINOR power from PU1, with a bonus for jumping running at full speed. Hardly anything to 'upgrade' to a full major for.


These don't read like "Different versions to cover different types of heroes" These feel like hastily written versions thrown in last minute, with out having opened a HU book in years. If one had they would have seen that three of the four were already covered and 'better' than the ones put forth in the Rifter.
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Re: Rifter #77, Four new super powers!

Unread post by Jack Burton »

Agreed... with all your observations. I just got my first two Rifters in the mail and was very impressed with their print quality. They're bound just like the regular books. I thought they're too heavy with Rifts content, but I guess whatever sells most, right?

The new powers in #77 didn't impress me in the slightest. I do like the ideas for the adventures they put out in the Rifters. If only they had an alternative to the Rifter that covered things OTHER than Rifts.... I'd say I give the Rifter a Thumbs Up in general.
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Re: Rifter #77, Four new super powers!

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:just hearing the names I am underwhelmed.

similar canon powers
Winged flight
Bio Armor
Leaping

The stated rifter powers seam to be mostly 'thematic' then 'new.'

Having gotten that rifter since then, they just seam to be the normal powers that have been modified to fit the character. Which is about what I said before.
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Re: Rifter #77, Four new super powers!

Unread post by eliakon »

I just got the Rifter today.
I will say that while the powers are not spectacular...
...I would not say they are pointless.
As everyone else said, the Bio-Armor is useful in its own right.

The flight power is of use to me BECAUSE it is weaker. Sometimes its not all about the most plusses. To me the versatility of having a few 'weaker options' in the canon tool box are a good thing.

The two leaping powers...
...I would say that they are actually subtly different and valuable.
The minor power gives a boost to PP, which can be valuable
The Major power gives a rather large boost to kick attack damage and a bonus APM which is very nice.
Its like how we have a few different options in the 'energy blaster' tool box. Some blasts do slightly different things. Sure they all give you blaster powers... but that doesn't mean that they are all just one power with different names. The various EE: powers are slightly different, and so too are the various jumping powers.

My opinion here?
If you are just looking for the most powerful build possible you will probably be disappointed.
If your looking to have a wider tool box with which to build characters and a wider degree of latitude to customize them you will be happy.
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

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Re: Rifter #77, Four new super powers!

Unread post by Pepsi Jedi »

eliakon wrote:I just got the Rifter today.
I will say that while the powers are not spectacular...
...I would not say they are pointless.
As everyone else said, the Bio-Armor is useful in its own right.

The flight power is of use to me BECAUSE it is weaker. Sometimes its not all about the most plusses. To me the versatility of having a few 'weaker options' in the canon tool box are a good thing.

The two leaping powers...
...I would say that they are actually subtly different and valuable.
The minor power gives a boost to PP, which can be valuable
The Major power gives a rather large boost to kick attack damage and a bonus APM which is very nice.
Its like how we have a few different options in the 'energy blaster' tool box. Some blasts do slightly different things. Sure they all give you blaster powers... but that doesn't mean that they are all just one power with different names. The various EE: powers are slightly different, and so too are the various jumping powers.

My opinion here?
If you are just looking for the most powerful build possible you will probably be disappointed.
If your looking to have a wider tool box with which to build characters and a wider degree of latitude to customize them you will be happy.


Thing is, they're not like the EE powers, where there's justification for the differences.

These... are just less. Alot less, than the already established minor power.

The minor one is hardly a power, and only appears so, due to the fact it's almost impossible to find 'normal' jump rules.

The "major" one is still weaker than the minor one we already had. Yeah we get a few stat differences, but these aren't different flavors. These are just 'inferior versions'.

The flight power, is the 'same' flight winged we have, but for no reason, weaker.

if we had flight 'Feathered wings' and this one was "Flight insect" and it was slower, that'd be one thing, but flight 'winged' already has insect wings.

So... why are they different?
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Re: Rifter #77, Four new super powers!

Unread post by eliakon »

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
eliakon wrote:I just got the Rifter today.
I will say that while the powers are not spectacular...
...I would not say they are pointless.
As everyone else said, the Bio-Armor is useful in its own right.

The flight power is of use to me BECAUSE it is weaker. Sometimes its not all about the most plusses. To me the versatility of having a few 'weaker options' in the canon tool box are a good thing.

The two leaping powers...
...I would say that they are actually subtly different and valuable.
The minor power gives a boost to PP, which can be valuable
The Major power gives a rather large boost to kick attack damage and a bonus APM which is very nice.
Its like how we have a few different options in the 'energy blaster' tool box. Some blasts do slightly different things. Sure they all give you blaster powers... but that doesn't mean that they are all just one power with different names. The various EE: powers are slightly different, and so too are the various jumping powers.

My opinion here?
If you are just looking for the most powerful build possible you will probably be disappointed.
If your looking to have a wider tool box with which to build characters and a wider degree of latitude to customize them you will be happy.


Thing is, they're not like the EE powers, where there's justification for the differences.

These... are just less. Alot less, than the already established minor power.

The minor one is hardly a power, and only appears so, due to the fact it's almost impossible to find 'normal' jump rules.

The "major" one is still weaker than the minor one we already had. Yeah we get a few stat differences, but these aren't different flavors. These are just 'inferior versions'.

The flight power, is the 'same' flight winged we have, but for no reason, weaker.

if we had flight 'Feathered wings' and this one was "Flight insect" and it was slower, that'd be one thing, but flight 'winged' already has insect wings.

So... why are they different?

Of the three, yes the flight power is basically inferior
Of course it might shock some people to know that not everyone thinks that everyone flying around at a couple hundred MPH is the most desirable state of affairs. But for those who DO want the option of winged flight that can be put on biological organisms that does not make them faster than airplanes, its not bad.
Heck, its a good example of the sort of thing that a GM might allow a player to 'tack on'.
NO GM is going to let you just add Winged Flight, even if your concept is a bird person. Its just to bloody powerful.
But this? Yeah, this is something that a GM could get behind as "Okay, here are the game stats for 'winged races, go forth"


The jump powers?
You know, sort of like the EE powers? I mean, why do we really need to have 20 of them. Why not just say "EE: What ever, its all the same man, you do blah blah damage, with what ever special effect you want" Why have EE: Fire AND EE: Heat or two different force blasts, or two different sonic powers...when one power is good enough and no one ever needs more than just one?
I guess I look at those stats and see the justification.
One Leaping power grants one set of bonuses
One Leaping power grants a smaller leaping (that whole not everyone wants Superman thing... I know its hard for a lot of people here to grasp) and in exchange you get one of the more coveted stat bonuses... PP
One Leaping power grants one of the other most coveted of bonuses... Attacks per Melee.

To me I look at getting to pick from
1) Huge leap, but no great stats
2) Low leap, but PP
3) Medium Leap, Major Power big damage and an attack per melee
As being a good, wide range of options, and that the range of options is itself the good.

I suppose they could have just given everyone all the powers. Or we could all play Amber where anyone can do anything (unless they cant of course)
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

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Re: Rifter #77, Four new super powers!

Unread post by Pepsi Jedi »

eliakon wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:
eliakon wrote:I just got the Rifter today.
I will say that while the powers are not spectacular...
...I would not say they are pointless.
As everyone else said, the Bio-Armor is useful in its own right.

The flight power is of use to me BECAUSE it is weaker. Sometimes its not all about the most plusses. To me the versatility of having a few 'weaker options' in the canon tool box are a good thing.

The two leaping powers...
...I would say that they are actually subtly different and valuable.
The minor power gives a boost to PP, which can be valuable
The Major power gives a rather large boost to kick attack damage and a bonus APM which is very nice.
Its like how we have a few different options in the 'energy blaster' tool box. Some blasts do slightly different things. Sure they all give you blaster powers... but that doesn't mean that they are all just one power with different names. The various EE: powers are slightly different, and so too are the various jumping powers.

My opinion here?
If you are just looking for the most powerful build possible you will probably be disappointed.
If your looking to have a wider tool box with which to build characters and a wider degree of latitude to customize them you will be happy.


Thing is, they're not like the EE powers, where there's justification for the differences.

These... are just less. Alot less, than the already established minor power.

The minor one is hardly a power, and only appears so, due to the fact it's almost impossible to find 'normal' jump rules.

The "major" one is still weaker than the minor one we already had. Yeah we get a few stat differences, but these aren't different flavors. These are just 'inferior versions'.

The flight power, is the 'same' flight winged we have, but for no reason, weaker.

if we had flight 'Feathered wings' and this one was "Flight insect" and it was slower, that'd be one thing, but flight 'winged' already has insect wings.

So... why are they different?

Of the three, yes the flight power is basically inferior
Of course it might shock some people to know that not everyone thinks that everyone flying around at a couple hundred MPH is the most desirable state of affairs. But for those who DO want the option of winged flight that can be put on biological organisms that does not make them faster than airplanes, its not bad.


So your GM lowers the speed of the power we already have. Either in general or for one character. Does it need "Same thing. Just slower" As it's own power?

eliakon wrote:
Heck, its a good example of the sort of thing that a GM might allow a player to 'tack on'.


So.. "Lame power you can 'tack on' for free because compared to 'real' powers it sucks?

eliakon wrote:NO GM is going to let you just add Winged Flight, even if your concept is a bird person. Its just to bloody powerful.
But this? Yeah, this is something that a GM could get behind as "Okay, here are the game stats for 'winged races, go forth"


So.. official power for house ruling free powers? Ehhhhhh.... I don't see the need. If you're going to house rule it anyway, you could just cut the speed on the one we already have.

eliakon wrote:
The jump powers?
You know, sort of like the EE powers? I mean, why do we really need to have 20 of them. Why not just say "EE: What ever, its all the same man, you do blah blah damage, with what ever special effect you want"


Some systems DO, do that. I believe M&M does? Palladium doesn't. Why do we have 20 of them? because, If you hit someone with Frosty mist, it doesn't do the same damage as a bolt of plasma. A fire ball doesn't do the same damage as directed sound. The 'Flavors" all "Taste' different.

Both ways are viable, but that's not how Palladium does it. In palladium the EE powers do different damages because some are stronger than others. In real life getting hit with.. an ice ball hurts, feels like getting hit wirh a rock, but it's not the same as a gout of PLASMA impacting your head.

eliakon wrote:
Why have EE: Fire AND EE: Heat


I can be really hot.. .and not be ON FIRE. That's why Fire does more damage.

eliakon wrote: or two different force blasts,


One's directed (like a ball) one's omnidirectional (Goes out in all directions.)

eliakon wrote: or two different sonic powers...when one power is good enough and no one ever needs more than just one?


It depends on the situation. If you had EE Fireball Green, that did 5D6+1D6 per level and EE Fireball red that did 1D4+1 per level..... Sure... 1D4+1 is better than 0D4+0.... but if you're looking between the two you're going to take EE fireball green every time.

That's what the jump powers are like. It's not that you're jumping different (We have super bounce for that)
It's
The Minor we already had.
Another minor that's the same 'thing' just vastly inferior
and now a Major that is a bit weaker than the minor we had previously.

It's not Superpower: Hop, Superpower: Jump, Superpower: Bound. One doesn't go only vertical while the other goes only horizontal, and the other on a diagnal or something. They do the same thing. One just does it a heck of a lot better than the other two, at either the same, or less cost.

What might be more fitting is the strengths. Extraordinary, Superhuman and Supernatural. But.. those don't really fit either as we had one as a minor power that would be the equivlilent of Supernatural, and now we have another minor that is less than extraordinary and a MAJOR that's at best, Extraordinary. So even "hey some are different strenghts" only holds up if you're wiling to 'pay (Use a major power slot) for 'less'.

eliakon wrote:
I guess I look at those stats and see the justification.
One Leaping power grants one set of bonuses
One Leaping power grants a smaller leaping (that whole not everyone wants Superman thing... I know its hard for a lot of people here to grasp)


It's not hard to grasp. It's just unrealistic. "Here. you can havre $5 or $50" "oh well.. some people only want $5" Ok.. it's POSSIBLE, but you're not going to run into that person too much.

eliakon wrote: and in exchange you get one of the more coveted stat bonuses... PP
One Leaping power grants one of the other most coveted of bonuses... Attacks per Melee.

To me I look at getting to pick from
1) Huge leap, but no great stats
2) Low leap, but PP
3) Medium Leap, Major Power big damage and an attack per melee
As being a good, wide range of options, and that the range of options is itself the good.


I don't have my books open infront of me as it's 4:37am, but if memory serves the boost to PP and Attacks are not signifigant. You'd be better off taking acrobatics and Boxing, and saving your very limited ---super power--- slots for actual super powers. Not just 'Gives a dot or two of PP"

eliakon wrote:
I suppose they could have just given everyone all the powers. Or we could all play Amber where anyone can do anything (unless they cant of course)


I just don't see the ones in Rifter 77 as "Different flavors" as much as they appear to be "Forgot we already made these, and winged it on the way to the printer" Type thing.
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Re: Rifter #77, Four new super powers!

Unread post by eliakon »

Spoiler:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:
eliakon wrote:I just got the Rifter today.
I will say that while the powers are not spectacular...
...I would not say they are pointless.
As everyone else said, the Bio-Armor is useful in its own right.

The flight power is of use to me BECAUSE it is weaker. Sometimes its not all about the most plusses. To me the versatility of having a few 'weaker options' in the canon tool box are a good thing.

The two leaping powers...
...I would say that they are actually subtly different and valuable.
The minor power gives a boost to PP, which can be valuable
The Major power gives a rather large boost to kick attack damage and a bonus APM which is very nice.
Its like how we have a few different options in the 'energy blaster' tool box. Some blasts do slightly different things. Sure they all give you blaster powers... but that doesn't mean that they are all just one power with different names. The various EE: powers are slightly different, and so too are the various jumping powers.

My opinion here?
If you are just looking for the most powerful build possible you will probably be disappointed.
If your looking to have a wider tool box with which to build characters and a wider degree of latitude to customize them you will be happy.


Thing is, they're not like the EE powers, where there's justification for the differences.

These... are just less. Alot less, than the already established minor power.

The minor one is hardly a power, and only appears so, due to the fact it's almost impossible to find 'normal' jump rules.

The "major" one is still weaker than the minor one we already had. Yeah we get a few stat differences, but these aren't different flavors. These are just 'inferior versions'.

The flight power, is the 'same' flight winged we have, but for no reason, weaker.

if we had flight 'Feathered wings' and this one was "Flight insect" and it was slower, that'd be one thing, but flight 'winged' already has insect wings.

So... why are they different?


Pepsi Jedi wrote:
eliakon wrote:Of the three, yes the flight power is basically inferior
Of course it might shock some people to know that not everyone thinks that everyone flying around at a couple hundred MPH is the most desirable state of affairs. But for those who DO want the option of winged flight that can be put on biological organisms that does not make them faster than airplanes, its not bad.


So your GM lowers the speed of the power we already have. Either in general or for one character. Does it need "Same thing. Just slower" As it's own power?

Oddly, yes. If you want to be a 'canon build'? yes.
So yes, if you want to be able to fly, but not be going hundreds of miles an hour... this power is important.
How important?
It just made flying super heroes book legal in my off and on pulp era game.
Before then? Nope. It wasn't possible because the canon powers were to fast, they made the characters faster than the airplanes of the day and that was disruptive to the setting.
Yes, I could Rule Zero the powers. But part of the point of the game was that it was supposed to be a straight book as few house rules as humanly possible game to introduce new players.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Heck, its a good example of the sort of thing that a GM might allow a player to 'tack on'.


So.. "Lame power you can 'tack on' for free because compared to 'real' powers it sucks?

No. To more powerful power it is weaker.
Though I guess there is the munchkin answer that says "Weaker for any reason = the suck"

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
eliakon wrote:NO GM is going to let you just add Winged Flight, even if your concept is a bird person. Its just to bloody powerful.
But this? Yeah, this is something that a GM could get behind as "Okay, here are the game stats for 'winged races, go forth"


So.. official power for house ruling free powers? Ehhhhhh.... I don't see the need. If you're going to house rule it anyway, you could just cut the speed on the one we already have.

One could.
Or we can use this.
Another use for this?
Cheaper alternative for a mutant animal or Eugenic to buy with Bio-E


Pepsi Jedi wrote:
eliakon wrote:
The jump powers?
You know, sort of like the EE powers? I mean, why do we really need to have 20 of them. Why not just say "EE: What ever, its all the same man, you do blah blah damage, with what ever special effect you want"


Some systems DO, do that. I believe M&M does? Palladium doesn't. Why do we have 20 of them? because, If you hit someone with Frosty mist, it doesn't do the same damage as a bolt of plasma. A fire ball doesn't do the same damage as directed sound. The 'Flavors" all "Taste' different.

Both ways are viable, but that's not how Palladium does it. In palladium the EE powers do different damages because some are stronger than others. In real life getting hit with.. an ice ball hurts, feels like getting hit wirh a rock, but it's not the same as a gout of PLASMA impacting your head.

Gee, you just summed up the entire point of having 3 leaping powers didn't you :lol: I guess difference is only good in things you like?

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Why have EE: Fire AND EE: Heat


I can be really hot.. .and not be ON FIRE. That's why Fire does more damage.

:lol: So "does more damage" is a valid difference between powers?
Who would have thunk it?

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
eliakon wrote: or two different force blasts,


One's directed (like a ball) one's omnidirectional (Goes out in all directions.)

Hmmmm, wait?
You mean that different powers in the same 'base group' can work differently?
noooooooo :lol:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
eliakon wrote: or two different sonic powers...when one power is good enough and no one ever needs more than just one?


It depends on the situation. If you had EE Fireball Green, that did 5D6+1D6 per level and EE Fireball red that did 1D4+1 per level..... Sure... 1D4+1 is better than 0D4+0.... but if you're looking between the two you're going to take EE fireball green every time.

Nice strawman there.
But that isn't what we have here is it.
We have 3 totally different powers that have 3 totally different sets of additional stats.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:That's what the jump powers are like. It's not that you're jumping different (We have super bounce for that)
It's
The Minor we already had.
Another minor that's the same 'thing' just vastly inferior
and now a Major that is a bit weaker than the minor we had previously.

It's not Superpower: Hop, Superpower: Jump, Superpower: Bound. One doesn't go only vertical while the other goes only horizontal, and the other on a diagnal or something. They do the same thing. One just does it a heck of a lot better than the other two, at either the same, or less cost.

I guess if one is looking only at the distance jumped.
And not any other part of the power.
But that is not the entire power, so guess what? That is not the only criteria to look at.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:What might be more fitting is the strengths. Extraordinary, Superhuman and Supernatural. But.. those don't really fit either as we had one as a minor power that would be the equivlilent of Supernatural, and now we have another minor that is less than extraordinary and a MAJOR that's at best, Extraordinary. So even "hey some are different strenghts" only holds up if you're wiling to 'pay (Use a major power slot) for 'less'.

Your just making my case here man.
Your just proving that the only thing you care about is the jumping distance.
Your taking one part of the whole, dismissing the rest of the power and then complaining that the differences that you are ignoring are where the changes are.
Willful ignorance is your problem not the writers.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
eliakon wrote:
I guess I look at those stats and see the justification.
One Leaping power grants one set of bonuses
One Leaping power grants a smaller leaping (that whole not everyone wants Superman thing... I know its hard for a lot of people here to grasp)


It's not hard to grasp. It's just unrealistic. "Here. you can havre $5 or $50" "oh well.. some people only want $5" Ok.. it's POSSIBLE, but you're not going to run into that person too much.

Don't cut my scentences in half to take them out of context and change whatwas being said.
Besides being VERY rude, and a horrible form of logical fallacy, it is against the forum rules.
When you are not trying to hide my actual words it is not about 5 dollars or 50 dollars
It is about getting a fast car that has horrible MPG and a slower car that gets great MPG maybe?
Lying about what I say so you can score points just proves that you can lie about my words.


Pepsi Jedi wrote:
eliakon wrote: and in exchange you get one of the more coveted stat bonuses... PP
One Leaping power grants one of the other most coveted of bonuses... Attacks per Melee.

To me I look at getting to pick from
1) Huge leap, but no great stats
2) Low leap, but PP
3) Medium Leap, Major Power big damage and an attack per melee
As being a good, wide range of options, and that the range of options is itself the good.


I don't have my books open infront of me as it's 4:37am, but if memory serves the boost to PP and Attacks are not signifigant. You'd be better off taking acrobatics and Boxing, and saving your very limited ---super power--- slots for actual super powers. Not just 'Gives a dot or two of PP"

I would say that an increase to all strike/parry/dodge rolls and one of the only ways to increase auto dodge is rather "signinficant"
And considering that there are only a handful of other powers that grant an additional APM? And that APM are basically one of the core mechanics of combat? Yeah, again what I would call "significant"
and the PP thing is especially important for those heroes that don't have a physical program. Once again, not every hero is a min-max. Which means that some characters will "gasp" not spend their first Skill Program (most heroes only get one or two) on Physical skills so that they can then get Acrobatics, Boxing, and Gymnastics.
Some people are interested in actually having skills.
You know... they might want to have their person be a doctor, or a lawyer, or... well have done something with their life other then train since birth to be a combat monster.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
eliakon wrote:
I suppose they could have just given everyone all the powers. Or we could all play Amber where anyone can do anything (unless they cant of course)


I just don't see the ones in Rifter 77 as "Different flavors" as much as they appear to be "Forgot we already made these, and winged it on the way to the printer" Type thing.

Well sure.
If we just ignore all the actual parts of the powers...
...but since you seem to be arguing that Stat Bonuses are not "part of a power" thus don't count, and that the only thing that matters is range and that PP, and damage, and APM are useless...
...I am thinking that the writers just wrote for a different game than what ever it is you play.
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Re: Rifter #77, Four new super powers!

Unread post by Stone Gargoyle »

I don't think variants of existing powers should be advertised as NEW powers. Not as Rifter material.
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Re: Rifter #77, Four new super powers!

Unread post by eliakon »

Stone Gargoyle wrote:I don't think variants of existing powers should be advertised as NEW powers. Not as Rifter material.

And then we are back to asking why any APS, or EE power can be called "new" when its really just a variant.
Or why any damage spell is new, their all just variants...
I guess there is only one suit of body armor, and one gun, and one car... that will make the Hardware book a lot smaller since now thankfully we wont have to put anything in it *phew* dodged that bullet. (good thing all bullets are just variants of the same thing...)

I mean, lets face it.
Premise the first: They are super powers
Premise the second: They are powers that have not been printed before
The inescapable conclusion is that they are, indeed, new super powers.

Seriously, this is a classic case of "Well, its not exactly what I want, there for it is WRONG!. And anyone that likes it is Playing Wrong because obviously any who was playing only correct way to play would agree that this thing is the wrong thing."

Sometimes people need to step back and remember...
...the game is not written for your personal campaign. It is written for a wider audience, and that other people play. People who will play differently than you and that not only will they have different priorities, but that those priorities are just as valid as yours.

If you disagree of course you are free to write your own game where the game IS all about you.
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

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Re: Rifter #77, Four new super powers!

Unread post by Stone Gargoyle »

eliakon wrote:
Stone Gargoyle wrote:I don't think variants of existing powers should be advertised as NEW powers. Not as Rifter material.

And then we are back to asking why any APS, or EE power can be called "new" when its really just a variant.
Or why any damage spell is new, their all just variants...
I guess there is only one suit of body armor, and one gun, and one car... that will make the Hardware book a lot smaller since now thankfully we wont have to put anything in it *phew* dodged that bullet. (good thing all bullets are just variants of the same thing...)
You are making a broad definition of variants. I am talking about writing powers that are nearly identical except one or two small details. We don't need a hundred different flight powers unless those powers are significantly different.
eliakon wrote:Seriously, this is a classic case of "Well, its not exactly what I want, there for it is WRONG!. And anyone that likes it is Playing Wrong because obviously any who was playing only correct way to play would agree that this thing is the wrong thing."
No, it is a matter of being redundant and repetitive. They are selling books, therefore there is a certain expectation for new and different material.
eliakon wrote:Sometimes people need to step back and remember...
...the game is not written for your personal campaign. It is written for a wider audience, and that other people play. People who will play differently than you and that not only will they have different priorities, but that those priorities are just as valid as yours.
I really don't need a lecture, but apparently you feel the need to give one. I guess that is your priority.
eliakon wrote:If you disagree of course you are free to write your own game where the game IS all about you.
I have written my share of material and sometimes do feel like I have to rewrite the game to get it to play the way I want. But that is neither here nor there.
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Re: Rifter #77, Four new super powers!

Unread post by eliakon »

Stone Gargoyle wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Stone Gargoyle wrote:I don't think variants of existing powers should be advertised as NEW powers. Not as Rifter material.

And then we are back to asking why any APS, or EE power can be called "new" when its really just a variant.
Or why any damage spell is new, their all just variants...
I guess there is only one suit of body armor, and one gun, and one car... that will make the Hardware book a lot smaller since now thankfully we wont have to put anything in it *phew* dodged that bullet. (good thing all bullets are just variants of the same thing...)
You are making a broad definition of variants. I am talking about writing powers that are nearly identical except one or two small details. We don't need a hundred different flight powers unless those powers are significantly different.

See, this just makes me laugh
With this power we now have a grand total of 10? flight powers
So, half the number of Energy Expulsion powers, or less APS then the main book or either Powers book.
And I am wondering how a power can be BOTH 'not significantly different' and yet at the same time be so totally different from every other power that it is pointless and shouldn't exist.
Its almost as if they are opposite statements.
Oh, wait...
:lol:

Stone Gargoyle wrote:
eliakon wrote:Seriously, this is a classic case of "Well, its not exactly what I want, there for it is WRONG!. And anyone that likes it is Playing Wrong because obviously any who was playing only correct way to play would agree that this thing is the wrong thing."
No, it is a matter of being redundant and repetitive. They are selling books, therefore there is a certain expectation for new and different material.
eliakon wrote:Sometimes people need to step back and remember...
...the game is not written for your personal campaign. It is written for a wider audience, and that other people play. People who will play differently than you and that not only will they have different priorities, but that those priorities are just as valid as yours.
I really don't need a lecture, but apparently you feel the need to give one. I guess that is your priority.

Thank you for making my case here.
Your comment that something is not 'new and different' because it does not meet your, personal standards of what is acceptable is pretty much the exact thing I was talking about.
The thing here is that to some people these are new and different. That is the point. Some people consider that "has different stats" to mean... well "different".
But that of course would require that more than one view be considered valid. Which is vanishingly rare on these forums. ESPECIALLY here in the HU forums.
The fact that those who feel that they are different are being told that they are wrong makes my point pretty clearly I would say.
Think about that for a second here.
It is not a statement that "some people are disappointed" or that "I would have preferred to get something else" it is that These Powers are Not Good, and anyone who thinks otherwise is wrong for thinking so because their views about the game do not matter only mine do even for their game.
Ponder that for a second.
Now try and tell me that is not Orthodoxy Police trying to tell people that there is One True Way to play and that if you do not play the Right Way then you are Doing It Wrong and should be ashamed and learn how to play the game.


Stone Gargoyle wrote:
eliakon wrote:If you disagree of course you are free to write your own game where the game IS all about you.
I have written my share of material and sometimes do feel like I have to rewrite the game to get it to play the way I want. But that is neither here nor there.

Your right. It has less than nothing to do with this. Every GM ever has rewritten material.

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Re: Rifter #77, Four new super powers!

Unread post by Stone Gargoyle »

eliakon wrote:Your comment that something is not 'new and different' because it does not meet your, personal standards of what is acceptable is pretty much the exact thing I was talking about.
Well, yeah, I'm talking about what I need because that is what I do as a consumer. I buy what I need. I'm not going to buy what I don't need.
eliakon wrote:The thing here is that to some people these are new and different. That is the point. Some people consider that "has different stats" to mean... well "different".
But that of course would require that more than one view be considered valid. Which is vanishingly rare on these forums. ESPECIALLY here in the HU forums.
The fact that those who feel that they are different are being told that they are wrong makes my point pretty clearly I would say.
Think about that for a second here.
It is not a statement that "some people are disappointed" or that "I would have preferred to get something else" it is that These Powers are Not Good, and anyone who thinks otherwise is wrong for thinking so because their views about the game do not matter only mine do even for their game.
Ponder that for a second.
Now try and tell me that is not Orthodoxy Police trying to tell people that there is One True Way to play and that if you do not play the Right Way then you are Doing It Wrong and should be ashamed and learn how to play the game.
I never said there is one true way. You are the one saying that. I merely expressed my opinion on these particular powers, not every power that was ever written as you seem to want to do. I do not see the APS powers as redundant because they are different elements.
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Re: Rifter #77, Four new super powers!

Unread post by Pepsi Jedi »

eliakon wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:
eliakon wrote:Of the three, yes the flight power is basically inferior
Of course it might shock some people to know that not everyone thinks that everyone flying around at a couple hundred MPH is the most desirable state of affairs. But for those who DO want the option of winged flight that can be put on biological organisms that does not make them faster than airplanes, its not bad.


So your GM lowers the speed of the power we already have. Either in general or for one character. Does it need "Same thing. Just slower" As it's own power?


Oddly, yes. If you want to be a 'canon build'? yes.


But you're not really talking about a canon build....

eliakon wrote:
So yes, if you want to be able to fly, but not be going hundreds of miles an hour... this power is important.
How important?
It just made flying super heroes book legal in my off and on pulp era game.
Before then?


so... before the slow buggy flight power appeared in the rifter... you didn't allow flight. thus.. .non canon, via the book game...

eliakon wrote:
It wasn't possible because the canon powers were to fast, they made the characters faster than the airplanes of the day and that was disruptive to the setting.
Yes, I could Rule Zero the powers. But part of the point of the game was that it was supposed to be a straight book as few house rules as humanly possible game to introduce new players.


and yet... you're still house ruling it. Not allowing other powers is house ruling it. Same thing as just saying the already existing rules worked 'slower' would be house ruling it. Either way you're house ruling it. In your case, removing 3 or 4 powers, and keeping one.

You could just reduce the speed on the same powers at the same 'number' of house rules (Taking out each, is house ruling)

eliakon wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Heck, its a good example of the sort of thing that a GM might allow a player to 'tack on'.


So.. "Lame power you can 'tack on' for free because compared to 'real' powers it sucks?

No. To more powerful power it is weaker.
Though I guess there is the munchkin answer that says "Weaker for any reason = the suck"


Please explain to me, in English what the sentence "To more powerful power it is weaker" means?????

eliakon wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:
eliakon wrote:NO GM is going to let you just add Winged Flight, even if your concept is a bird person. Its just to bloody powerful.
But this? Yeah, this is something that a GM could get behind as "Okay, here are the game stats for 'winged races, go forth"


So.. official power for house ruling free powers? Ehhhhhh.... I don't see the need. If you're going to house rule it anyway, you could just cut the speed on the one we already have.

One could.
Or we can use this.


If the only thing you want is a house rule, why does it matter where the house rule exists? At the exclusion of a power, or the modification of it? You're house ruling either way.

eliakon wrote:
Another use for this?
Cheaper alternative for a mutant animal or Eugenic to buy with Bio-E


That's not how Bio-e points work. Unless you're also house ruling costs in to make it cost less.

eliakon wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
eliakon wrote:
The jump powers?
You know, sort of like the EE powers? I mean, why do we really need to have 20 of them. Why not just say "EE: What ever, its all the same man, you do blah blah damage, with what ever special effect you want"


Some systems DO, do that. I believe M&M does? Palladium doesn't. Why do we have 20 of them? because, If you hit someone with Frosty mist, it doesn't do the same damage as a bolt of plasma. A fire ball doesn't do the same damage as directed sound. The 'Flavors" all "Taste' different.

Both ways are viable, but that's not how Palladium does it. In palladium the EE powers do different damages because some are stronger than others. In real life getting hit with.. an ice ball hurts, feels like getting hit wirh a rock, but it's not the same as a gout of PLASMA impacting your head.

Gee, you just summed up the entire point of having 3 leaping powers didn't you :lol: I guess difference is only good in things you like?


You'd almost be clever if I didn't DIRECTLY address that for the jumping powers previously and how they're NOT like that.

eliakon wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Why have EE: Fire AND EE: Heat


I can be really hot.. .and not be ON FIRE. That's why Fire does more damage.

:lol: So "does more damage" is a valid difference between powers?
Who would have thunk it?


Different sources are valid differences between powers. Having two powers that gie you bug wings, but one is slower for no reason other than you forgot you already made the power, is not.

eliakon wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:
eliakon wrote: or two different force blasts,


One's directed (like a ball) one's omnidirectional (Goes out in all directions.)

Hmmmm, wait?
You mean that different powers in the same 'base group' can work differently?
noooooooo :lol:


I get the impression you think you're clever and making a point, but the point you're trying to make was already previously refuted.
eliakon wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:
eliakon wrote: or two different sonic powers...when one power is good enough and no one ever needs more than just one?


It depends on the situation. If you had EE Fireball Green, that did 5D6+1D6 per level and EE Fireball red that did 1D4+1 per level..... Sure... 1D4+1 is better than 0D4+0.... but if you're looking between the two you're going to take EE fireball green every time.



Nice strawman there.


That's not what that means.... It's not a strawman, because the different jump powers are exactly that. Good... Less good, and more expensive than the previous two and barely as good if not worse."

eliakon wrote:
But that isn't what we have here is it.
We have 3 totally different powers that have 3 totally different sets of additional stats.


No we have one power, with two different costs and three sets of stats. The second and third, written being inferior to the first, and for some reason one of them costs more.

eliakon wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:That's what the jump powers are like. It's not that you're jumping different (We have super bounce for that)
It's
The Minor we already had.
Another minor that's the same 'thing' just vastly inferior
and now a Major that is a bit weaker than the minor we had previously.

It's not Superpower: Hop, Superpower: Jump, Superpower: Bound. One doesn't go only vertical while the other goes only horizontal, and the other on a diagnal or something. They do the same thing. One just does it a heck of a lot better than the other two, at either the same, or less cost.

I guess if one is looking only at the distance jumped.
And not any other part of the power.
But that is not the entire power, so guess what? That is not the only criteria to look at.


Right... powers called jumping aren'tabout the jumping, not at all. They're only about the assioated random benifits that come from being able to jump. Not the jumping themselves....

eliakon wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:What might be more fitting is the strengths. Extraordinary, Superhuman and Supernatural. But.. those don't really fit either as we had one as a minor power that would be the equivlilent of Supernatural, and now we have another minor that is less than extraordinary and a MAJOR that's at best, Extraordinary. So even "hey some are different strenghts" only holds up if you're wiling to 'pay (Use a major power slot) for 'less'.

Your just making my case here man.


No.. You just don't understand what you're trying to say.

eliakon wrote:
Your just proving that the only thing you care about is the jumping distance.


FROM A JUMPING POWER???? NOOOOO. lol Should I care about how it makes your hair trial in the wind?

eliakon wrote:
Your taking one part of the whole, dismissing the rest of the power and then complaining that the differences that you are ignoring are where the changes are.
Willful ignorance is your problem not the writers.


No I'm focusing on what the power is envisioned to do. Superpowered jumps. Not that the writer of the second two forgot there already was the first one, and threw in random stats that happened to be different... because he clearly forgot the first existed.. or he wouldn't have named them the same thing, annd made the others weaker and look stupid. lol

eliakon wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
eliakon wrote:
I guess I look at those stats and see the justification.
One Leaping power grants one set of bonuses
One Leaping power grants a smaller leaping (that whole not everyone wants Superman thing... I know its hard for a lot of people here to grasp)


It's not hard to grasp. It's just unrealistic. "Here. you can havre $5 or $50" "oh well.. some people only want $5" Ok.. it's POSSIBLE, but you're not going to run into that person too much.

Don't cut my scentences in half to take them out of context and change whatwas being said.


I don't have to. If you're going to make insults. I'll address them as they come.

eliakon wrote:
Besides being VERY rude, and a horrible form of logical fallacy, it is against the forum rules.


The line you're complaining about, is YOU calling me stupid, lol and you're going to put on affront and call me rude? Seriously? "Well you're too dumb to understand what i say! *GASP!! * DON"T BE RUDE!" Really????? You're funny Eli.

eliakon wrote:
When you are not trying to hide my actual words it is not about 5 dollars or 50 dollars


I'm not hiding your words. the $5 would be the minor jump power from the rifter. the $50 would be the minor jump power from Powers Unlimited. It was a direct compairison, to your silly claim.

eliakon wrote:
It is about getting a fast car that has horrible MPG and a slower car that gets great MPG maybe?


The powers aren't about how much fuel it takes to drive man. It's about how far they drive and how fast they do it.

eliakon wrote:
Lying about what I say so you can score points just proves that you can lie about my words.


I'm not lying about anything Eli. You seldom seem to fully grasp the points you're trying to make. That's not my fault.
eliakon wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
eliakon wrote: and in exchange you get one of the more coveted stat bonuses... PP
One Leaping power grants one of the other most coveted of bonuses... Attacks per Melee.

To me I look at getting to pick from
1) Huge leap, but no great stats
2) Low leap, but PP
3) Medium Leap, Major Power big damage and an attack per melee
As being a good, wide range of options, and that the range of options is itself the good.


I don't have my books open infront of me as it's 4:37am, but if memory serves the boost to PP and Attacks are not signifigant. You'd be better off taking acrobatics and Boxing, and saving your very limited ---super power--- slots for actual super powers. Not just 'Gives a dot or two of PP"

I would say that an increase to all strike/parry/dodge rolls and one of the only ways to increase auto dodge is rather "signinficant"


If it was true it wouldbe, but there are tons and tons and tons of ways to up strike parry and dodge, and auto dodge pops up quite frequently. It's hardly the game ender you're trying to make it out as.

At the very best it could be used by a Munchkin to try and mini max the extra attack, in a purpose bult hero looking for maximum number of attacks. But "It's great for mini/maxing/munchkin" does not a valid power make.

eliakon wrote:


And considering that there are only a handful of other powers that grant an additional APM?


Quite a bit more than a handful.

eliakon wrote: And that APM are basically one of the core mechanics of combat? Yeah, again what I would call "significant"


Only if looking at it from a mini max potential. The power isn't "more attacks per melee" it's "JUMP". You're not talking about the power. Your'e talking about a stat, used in conjuction with other creation tricks

eliakon wrote:

and the PP thing is especially important for those heroes that don't have a physical program. Once again, not every hero is a min-max.


Taking a jump power for PP isn't mini-maxing?

We may have different definitions of the word, because your entire justification of the powers seems to be "You use them to help mini-max. Not to actually.. you know... JUMP"

eliakon wrote:

Which means that some characters will "gasp" not spend their first Skill Program (most heroes only get one or two) on Physical skills so that they can then get Acrobatics, Boxing, and Gymnastics.
Some people are interested in actually having skills.


Skills of which they get dozens... but not powers... because w'ere going to waste powers, to get those bonuses.. and not choose them for the power itself (Jumping) but instead mini-maxing the stats.... ?

seems silly to me. If youre just in it for that, why not take Extraordinary PP, or Lightning reflexes. As you're clearly not taking them to jump.

eliakon wrote:
You know... they might want to have their person be a doctor, or a lawyer, or... well have done something with their life other then train since birth to be a combat monster.


And that some how preculdes physical skills? Or nessitates using crap powers to bost their physical stats? lol You're talking about them not wanting to be a combat monster, while advocating the usage of powers to justify becoming a combat monster.

eliakon wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:
eliakon wrote:
I suppose they could have just given everyone all the powers. Or we could all play Amber where anyone can do anything (unless they cant of course)


I just don't see the ones in Rifter 77 as "Different flavors" as much as they appear to be "Forgot we already made these, and winged it on the way to the printer" Type thing.

Well sure.
If we just ignore all the actual parts of the powers...


Nooo. If we focus on what the power is meant to do. "Jump Really well" and "Jump UNGODLY Well" they suck. As they don't DO what the power is meant to DO.

eliakon wrote:
...but since you seem to be arguing that Stat Bonuses are not "part of a power" thus don't count, and that the only thing that matters is range and that PP, and damage, and APM are useless...
...I am thinking that the writers just wrote for a different game than what ever it is you play.


No. Lol I'm saying that if a power is called Super jump. you should be taking it to super jump. Not taking a crappy "hopped over a broom handle" just to get the bonuses that are on the side.

If you're taking a JUMP power not to JUMP but instead for extra attacks or PP, your'e minimaxing. (And not smartly, there's better ways to do it)
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