Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

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Razorwing
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Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by Razorwing »

A fairly recent thread has gotten me thinking that perhaps it is time to revisit and revise the role of magic in Heroes Unlimited.

Now, most people would say that Magic in a modern super-hero setting is not a huge thing... since few heroes are going to have access to such powers. Of course these people don't realize that magic is one of the three main sources of power for heroes... Technology and Inherent Powers being the other two. Okay... magic may be the smallest of these... but that doesn't make it any less important than Tech books like Hardware Unlimited that is due out... or any of the Powers Unlimited books (which, incidentally does include a few new categories that can be seen as mystically infused).

Then there are potential world threats like the one seen in Armageddon Unlimited which many Techies and Inherents would be blind to until it is too late. Just as it takes a expert to dismantle a high tech doomsday weapon safely, so too would it take an expert in magic to stop a magical threat... something very few heroes are able to claim. Even famous hero teams like the Justice League or the Avengers will seek out advice when they come up against mystical threats... often turning to magical characters like Zatanna or Dr. Strange in such cases.

This means that Mystic characters will often be at the fore front of many mystic conflicts... many that fight in the shadows, but could spill out into the streets. The Minion War between Hades and Dyval were but two of the many hell dimensions that exist... how many more are out there that have plans for Earth... and who are opposing them? As explained in Armageddon Unlimited, many heroes greatly underestimate the power of supernatural creatures (in recent Avengers cartoons, Tony Stark is constantly doing this... much to his continued regret soon afterwards).

Additionally, while many other power categories have gotten slight power increases with new books... Mystic power categories haven't seen as great an increase. True, some categories may not need it (Mystic Weapons seems fairly strong at the moment), but other do (Enchanted Objects are arguably the weakest category in game... possibly even weaker than the Minor Heroes category from PU2). There is also no arguing that the Mystic Study category could use more diversification... at least with more spells available (and no... merely telling someone to convert spells from another game line that they may or may not have is not a valid argument, merely an additional option).

So I honestly think that a Magic Unlimited book that further explores these types of characters, the threats they face and expand their options would be a very interesting book. We could even delve into the Earth's mystic and mythic past when Magic was the most common way of achieving power (with Tech and Inherent powers being far less common). It could explore theories as to why magical forces have diminished over the centuries... and who is to say that magic won't make a comeback one day? The Rifts game line has proven that magic can be reborn with a vengeance... and Armageddon Unlimited provided a plot that could possibly achieve such a result. Imagine what would happen if magic were to make a comeback... similar to what has happened in the Nightbane game line where it wasn't quite as violent as it is with Rifts or the Armageddon plot... a realignment of planes that strengthens the magical forces of Earth... maybe even something similar to what might be happening in the Dead Reign game line (complete with a secret cult that seeks to be the new world leaders in this new age of magic).

This is why I am writing this thread... to brainstorm ideas on what people might expect from such a book... what they would like to see... and what to avoid. Which Mystic Power categories should be enhanced... and which merely need new options (or are even good as is). How about suggestions for mystical societies... good and evil? What about the mystic past of the world... what should it be like? How about the possible mystic future, how do you see a return of magic?

I am open to any ideas... but there is no guarantee that anything (even the potential book that could result from this) will happen from this discussion.
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by Stone Gargoyle »

There is already an Invented Spells thread in the Magic & Psionics section of the forums, as well as compatible books of magic written for Rifts and PFRPG, so there is hardly a lack of resources for magic users in the game. There does not need to be a Magic Unlimited book, IMO.
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by Glistam »

Sounds like a Magic Unlimited sourcebook could basically be Beyond the Supernatural with super heroes.

Mystic Study: Explore additional options for the special abilities in order to provide variety, then you wouldn't need additional classes.

Magic Weapon: Doesn't really need too much help here, maybe a few additional ideas of special abilities.

Enchanted Object: Needs the most help. The category needs an upgrade, stat. Compare it to the PU2 Super-Invention power category to see one way it could be improved. The "special abilities" provided by the object need to be seriously increased and revamped. Here's a thought - if it's going to cost P.P.E. to use super powers, why not increase the number of them available so it's more than the standard hero? Since it's a finite pool of energy you'd have limits. The magic items available in Nightbane book 2 can provide some interesting inspiration for new special abilities, and 1D4 of those abilities rather than just one might be a reasonable change. Also consider non-standard spells, like elemental or temporal magic, as options too.

Mystic Bestowed: Already given more options in Armageddon Unlimited, but if the other categories are being empowered this class could use a look for that, too. Though in honesty, these types of characters are usually at the forefront with other heroes and not in the shadows like the other Magic Category characters would be. The PU2 Empowered power category also offers some options that may be worth combining here.

Immortal: They don't really need an "upgrade," but some clarification (some are mega heroes, some are not, but all use the mega-hero xp chart?) might be useful here.

Spells: Importing spells from around the megaverse would be a good idea. Lots of good spells in Chaos Earth Rise of Magic, Palladium Fantasy Mysteries of Magic, Palladium Fantasy Library of Bletherad, Palladium Fantasy Northern Hinterlands, Rifts Book of Magic, Rifts Mercenary Adventures, Nightbane, Nightbane Through the Glass Darkly, Nightbane Between the Shadows, and probably others I'm not thinking of off the top of my head. Nightbane also offers some standard spells at an increased power/damage level that may be appropriate to a Heroes Unlimited style game.

Alternate spell system: Can there be an improvisational magic system for Palladium? If it's going to appear anywhere, here would be a great place to put it.

Alternate spell system 2: How about guidelines for how to make super powers into spells. Maybe a new "class" of mage whose spells are all basically super powers?

Magic Items: It could be worth having a short write-up for possible explanations why one can't just take a character's magic item if they are a mutant or alien and just permanently add that power set to their own. It's a question that comes up often enough that it could warrant special attention in a book like this.

Armageddon Unlimited: In many ways, this book is similar to what you're trying to do. It has new classes, new abilities for existing classes, and focuses on the magical/mystical aspect of HU. Granted, it does it through the lens of one specific story arc being explored, but care should be taken to ensure that what was introduced in this book isn't just copy/pasted into a new book, nor is it ignored.

That's what comes to mind initially.
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by eliakon »

If I were writing this?
I would do a section on alternate magical takes on established classes to 'enchant' them. Eugenic character? Nay good sir, tis my homunculus.

I would do a section on how to convert those spells from the other games for use in Heroes Unlimited! Yeah, everyone says "there are all these spells out there...." And there are thousands of spells... But wait! These spells are often scattered in multiple books (which may not be an ideal situation for a player of HU who is not a completest).
Many of these spells are also for sub-schools...which works in games like Rifts where you have several dozen kinds of magic-users. If I want to import the spells into HU then I need to know what I am doing. Should I just bring over "invocations?" (what is that? Before you smugly answer remember that every thread that has gone into that topic, ever, has gone down in flames to be locked... its not such a simple question as you might think)
If I am bringing over specialty spells, some guidelines on them would be really useful. Information on details like the armor rating of defensive spells would be helpful.
Or figuring out the damage out put of spells. And before everyone says "just turn the M's into S's" this results in some really odd cases in Mega Damage games, where there are a lot of spells that are predicated on the idea that SDC is weak, and thus give heavy duty SDC/SD effects....making direct conversions difficult if not outright impossible.
Some advice on the relative power levels of the various game lines and the magical assumptions that go into each of them would be invaluable. The magical assumptions behind Rifts are not the same ones that are in play in Palladium Fantasy, and neither of those sets of assumptions is in play in Nightbane. All three of which have different assumptions than Heroes Unlimited does. Recognition of this would be important for the GM tasked with bringing material from these lines over.

I would then want some purely Heroes Unlimited style magic. When the world has Nightbane and Nightlords in it magic made spells like "Sense Nightbane" In Palladium Fantasy we have See Wards. Rifts is full of spells like Frequency Jamming, Negate Mechanics, Electro-Magnetic Attack, Engine Flame Out and the like..... So why not spells like Sense Super Power? Circle of Protection: Super Power? Where is the magic specialized for this game? I think that would be a very good section. It would also make this book attractive megaversally as now a GM in another game that imports super powers has something else to import to into that mix.

Lastly I would look at some of the staples and tropes of Comic Book magic users and ways to implement them. Minor magic items, charms, familiars....these are all good starts. Familiars in comics and manga are rarely just a slightly smart animal that loans you hit points. But neither are they inherently duplicitous beings of evil which is often the case using the Through the Glass Darkly rules. That is because TtGD is for a different game, a game of horror and betrayal where magic is a dark and eldritch force that can only barely be shaped let alone controlled. Heroic gaming needs heroic familiars....familiars with options that would fit the Heroic gaming setting
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by Razorwing »

Stone Gargoyle wrote:There is already an Invented Spells thread in the Magic & Psionics section of the forums, as well as compatible books of magic written for Rifts and PFRPG, so there is hardly a lack of resources for magic users in the game. There does not need to be a Magic Unlimited book, IMO.


Believe it or not... there are people out there with absolutely no interest in buying a Rifts, Beyond the Supernatural... or any other game line other than Heroes Unlimited. To be honest... the thought that people "have" to buy such books from a different game line just to get a little variety for Heroes is a poor reason for saying we don't need a Magic Book for Heroes.

Heroes Unlimited is as unique a setting as Rifts, Nightbane, Beyond the Supernatural or any other game line Palladium produces... and deserved a book of magic that reflects its own unique flavor. This is why we have books like Aliens Unlimited dedicated to the various Alien Races of Heroes Unlimited... rather than just adapt all the various D-Bees found in Rifts... or the Phase World books. This is why we have the upcoming Hardware Unlimited book rather than just adapt all the nice techie goodies found in books like Rifts or Mechanoids.

With reasoning like this... Heroes Unlimited doesn't need any new books, because all one has to do is buy books from other game lines and adapt them to the setting. Who cares if none of it was intended to be for Heroes... and none of it makes Heroes feel like a unique setting... it is cheaper to buy other books than to produce a book specifically to meet the needs of the setting. Except that it isn't.

We are talking of buying dozens of books from different game lines... just to give a variety of options that could be put into a single book. Hmmm... by 1 book written for the setting or 12+ books made for different settings and converting them... which sounds more like a hassle to you? And that is just to add variety to just the Mystic Study and possibly Mystic Weapon Categories. What about Enchanted Objects and Bestowed Characters... something that is rare to find outside of the Heroes setting? Beyond that... it adds no more depth of knowledge to the mystic aspects of the Heroes setting... its past or its future; or even adds any new potential to its present in the form of mystical organizations (good, evil or misguided).

No... a Magic Unlimited book would be able to add far more than just more spells and (for lack of a better term) OCCs to the game... it could explore the past, present and future of magic as it pertains to a world of comic book heroes.

Sorry if I sound just a tad hostile in this... but the attitude you present is the very reason we need such a book. It was the same attitude present when Aliens Unlimited and Hardware Unlimited were first mentioned... and it is just as false a view now as it was then.
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by Razorwing »

eliakon wrote:Familiars in comics and manga are rarely just a slightly smart animal that loans you hit points. But neither are they inherently duplicitous beings of evil which is often the case using the Through the Glass Darkly rules. That is because TtGD is for a different game, a game of horror and betrayal where magic is a dark and eldritch force that can only barely be shaped let alone controlled. Heroic gaming needs heroic familiars....familiars with options that would fit the Heroic gaming setting


Now this could be an interesting idea for a minor Power Category, a variation of the Minor Hero even or even the reason a mutant animal was created (through magic rather than through science). You see a number of such creatures in comics... some of which are even heroes in their own right.
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by Razorwing »

Going beyond just giving the various Magic Power Categories a tune-up and a means of converting other spells and items to the Heroes setting... what about the mythic and mystic history of the setting itself?

The main book even postulates the idea that Heroes of all sorts have been a real presence through out history of the setting. Now we know that modern Technology is a fairly recent development... within the last few hundred years, so the presence of Cyborgs and Robots (at least as we know them) and other similarly teched out heroes would have been rare before say Da Vinci and similar inventors were well known. This means that Magic was likely a major player in the past... maybe even filling the void that Technology stands. Frankenstein's Monster could have been a Eugenics creation that used magic as much as science (which was still in its infancy at the time) in its creation. Many have argued that the magical practice of Alchemy was very similar to scientific chemistry... and could be used to create chemical/alchemical experiments and even imbued heroes. While the modern science of genetics has revealed the source of power for mutations and such being locked in one's genes... such characters would likely have existed long ago as well... leading wizards of Heroes Earth to develop magics to detect such individuals... and maybe even activate such powers (not unlike the "accidents" in modern times that sees these powers manifest).

Additionally... at some point in history, magic began to decline... and such heroes became fewer and appeared less often. There have been a number of cases in our world where witch hunts were common... and even otherwise benevolent people were killed on the mere suspicion of being a sorcerer or witch. Now imagine if sorcerers and witches were real and being hunted. This would have been the darkest time for magic... where others saw all magic as evil... even those who did good with their power. This is likely the time when the majority of Mystic characters stepped into the shadows... both good and evil. It is also the time when magic probably reached its lowest point... when magic was so weak that it could easily be forgotten by the majority of people.

But what of the future? While many Magical characters still try to work from behind the scenes, the presence of many Magical Heroes is beginning to inspire people once more into believing in magic once again. It is likely that the present is a nexus of potential... one where magic could begin a resurgence. Armageddon Unlimited presented a plot that could lead to a violent resurgence... but with the help of heroes a more subtle resurgence might be possible too... not to mention the actions of various magical threats that could realign the mystical energies of Earth to begin strengthening magic once more.

What of various mystic cults, brotherhoods and organizations... good, evil and misguided. What kinds of threats are they... or do they fight? Where do Mystic Study characters receive their training? How are Mystic Weapons and Enchanted Objects created? Who bestows power on the Mystically Bestowed? And let's not forget those other power categories like Immortals and such that can also have mystical origins (though are not always inherently magical). And what significance will Earth play on a greater stage... especially for Alien races in the galaxy that also use mystic forces? Could a resurgence of magic on Earth draw attention from those races... or even cause other planets to have similar resurgences (or vise versa)?

Magic Unlimited could be just as informative as any other book in the setting.
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by Damian Magecraft »

Gotta agree with Razorwing.
If Aliens Ulim, Powers Unlim, & Hardware Unlim are deemed as warranted then so to is a Magic Unlim (and perhaps a Special Training Unlim as well).
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by eliakon »

Also a MU would be a good place to flesh out some of these various magical organizations that have been canonically introduced.
Its all very well and good to put a magical organization or two in the backstories of various NPCs....but now that they are there it would be a good time to fill them out.
Who are they? What are they doing? What are their Goals? Memberships? Resources? How do you join?
Like in AU where we got some organizations.....

The Totemica from the background of Serpentina
The mysterious order of Weapons of Chaos from the background of The Headsman
Thessalica and the Black Order from Triskelion

And that's just from the Gramercy Island book (and I didn't include The Circle of Three, because it sounds like a trio of heroes, not a full order)
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by eliakon »

Razorwing wrote:
eliakon wrote:Familiars in comics and manga are rarely just a slightly smart animal that loans you hit points. But neither are they inherently duplicitous beings of evil which is often the case using the Through the Glass Darkly rules. That is because TtGD is for a different game, a game of horror and betrayal where magic is a dark and eldritch force that can only barely be shaped let alone controlled. Heroic gaming needs heroic familiars....familiars with options that would fit the Heroic gaming setting


Now this could be an interesting idea for a minor Power Category, a variation of the Minor Hero even or even the reason a mutant animal was created (through magic rather than through science). You see a number of such creatures in comics... some of which are even heroes in their own right.

Transdimentional TMNT actually has "formar familiar" as one of the sources of mutation for animals. This would be like I was talking about when I said that it would be good to look at the various Power Categories through a magic lens
Eugenics --> Homunculus
Experiment --> Alchemy
Mutant Animal --> Familiar
Robot --> Construct

Raised dead/undead are another staple of comic books that could be explored
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by Stone Gargoyle »

Razorwing wrote:Believe it or not... there are people out there with absolutely no interest in buying a Rifts, Beyond the Supernatural... or any other game line other than Heroes Unlimited. To be honest... the thought that people "have" to buy such books from a different game line just to get a little variety for Heroes is a poor reason for saying we don't need a Magic Book for Heroes.
But I already have other books, so buying something new does not appeal to me if it is just going to re-publish materials from books I already have.

Razorwing wrote:Heroes Unlimited is as unique a setting as Rifts, Nightbane, Beyond the Supernatural or any other game line Palladium produces... and deserved a book of magic that reflects its own unique flavor. This is why we have books like Aliens Unlimited dedicated to the various Alien Races of Heroes Unlimited... rather than just adapt all the various D-Bees found in Rifts... or the Phase World books. This is why we have the upcoming Hardware Unlimited book rather than just adapt all the nice techie goodies found in books like Rifts or Mechanoids.
That would be great if they actually did that rather than rehash what is already out there. If they added new mystic study categories that expanded the existing material or added more options, I would be in favor of a new book.

Razorwing wrote:With reasoning like this... Heroes Unlimited doesn't need any new books, because all one has to do is buy books from other game lines and adapt them to the setting. Who cares if none of it was intended to be for Heroes... and none of it makes Heroes feel like a unique setting... it is cheaper to buy other books than to produce a book specifically to meet the needs of the setting. Except that it isn't.
I am all in favor of new hardware books and materials which improve and revamp the robotics and bionics categories. That is more important to me than writing more for an area which already has a lot of materials written for it.

Razorwing wrote:We are talking of buying dozens of books from different game lines... just to give a variety of options that could be put into a single book. Hmmm... by 1 book written for the setting or 12+ books made for different settings and converting them... which sounds more like a hassle to you? And that is just to add variety to just the Mystic Study and possibly Mystic Weapon Categories. What about Enchanted Objects and Bestowed Characters... something that is rare to find outside of the Heroes setting? Beyond that... it adds no more depth of knowledge to the mystic aspects of the Heroes setting... its past or its future; or even adds any new potential to its present in the form of mystical organizations (good, evil or misguided).
Said book would be either huge and expensive or made up of several books which would have to be published over several years. I don't see Palladium doing that, as they still don't have the MoM books out yet.

Razorwing wrote:No... a Magic Unlimited book would be able to add far more than just more spells and (for lack of a better term) OCCs to the game... it could explore the past, present and future of magic as it pertains to a world of comic book heroes.
Yeah, well good luck getting Palladium to do it.

Razorwing wrote:Sorry if I sound just a tad hostile in this... but the attitude you present is the very reason we need such a book. It was the same attitude present when Aliens Unlimited and Hardware Unlimited were first mentioned... and it is just as false a view now as it was then.
I am being realistic. Wanting new books is all well and good, but Palladium does not have a great track record when it comes to producing books for product lines other than Rifts.
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by Razorwing »

Its always felt odd to me that of all the species in Heroes Unlimited that have learned magic... only the human of Earth have Heroes empowered by mystic weapons, enchanted object or have had powers bestowed upon them.

Seriously... there are a number of races in Aliens Unlimited that have been using magic for centuries... if not longer... and not one of them has even considered enchanting a weapon or object to grant powers to another... or contacted (or been) a being to grant powers to another? Of all the races in the entire galaxy that can use magic... only the humans on a back water planet on the fringes of the galaxy have actually thought about these uses for magic?

I guess there are no "Beta Ray Bill" type aliens who have been granted a magical weapon to aid in their cause.

Just one of the many concerns with the current status of magic in Heroes that needs to be addressed... either to explain why this is (outside of game mechanic reasons... which are honestly not a good excuse when aliens can have high tech items and powers, but not magic weapons/objects)... or to give methods for them to have such items.

And that is just one of the current power categories to look at... there are so many more that need a good once over to see where possible stories are currently lacking. Even high tech characters could use magic as a power source (without it being Techno-Wizardry)... one of the Vulnerabilities for High Tech Mega Heroes from Rifter 37 showed this is plausible (for all it can do, magic is still energy... and this can be used to power technology without the technology being magic in and of itself).

Magic... especially in Heroes and other Palladium games is all about possibilities... one merely needs to open one's eyes to see all that is possible by exploring this aspect of the game to realize that there are more possibilities than there appears... a fact that such characters know all too well. It is time to pull back the veil and show what lies beyond the looking glass.
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by Razorwing »

In taking a more in depth look at alien mystics from both the Aliens Unlimited and Galaxy Guide books, there is a distinct trend towards the sorcerous aspects of this form of empowerment... likely because it is the easiest to accomplish. Learning to cast spells would generally be easier since (theoretically) anyone can accomplish this with time and proper training. Both Mystic Weapons and Enchanted Objects have to be created (often by a powerful sorcerer or magical/supernatural being) while the Mystically Bestowed usually requires the intervention of a powerful supernatural being (the Perola from Galaxy Guide pg 71 being a notable exception).

Still, while the Alien Sorcerer is likely to be the most common Alien Mystics... it still seems odd that they seem to be the only form of Magical Empowerment with only the Perola being something else... at least as currently described.

Now, there are likely those who would say allowing Aliens to have Enchanted Objects, Mystic Weapons or be bestowed with Mystic Powers would make them overpowered when combined with the other benefits they get (such as natural powers and high tech weapons and equipment). In a sense... these arguments are valid... but only IF such things are combined.

First of all, mystically empowered aliens would be part of Step 3: Determining Super Abilities. Since a given character can only have one category of empowerment, the idea that being granted powers from both natural abilities and some mystic source is moot... it is generally one or the other. At best... an alien might have the equivalent of 1 minor power naturally (such as an Avian with Flight: Winged or an Aquatic/Amphibious with Underwater abilities) which won't seriously affect their mystic abilities.

Second, Mystic Weapons and Enchanted Objects are likely to replace the special equipment that such aliens would normally receive. Why would an alien with a Mystic Weapon or Enchanted Object need a special weapon or vehicle... especially since such capabilities are likely part of the item that is empowering them? So, such items would likely replace any special equipment the alien would likely get. More over, such equipment for those who are Mystically Bestowed their powers or who learn to cast spells will likely be of a magical nature rather than technological (fire sword rather than energy swords, minor enchanted weapons instead of vibro or kisentite weapons and such) and may need a small PPE expenditure to use. Such societies are also likely to favor more archaic/ancient weaponry... but the magical equivalent to a laser pistol is also possible.

Mystically Bestowed Aliens likely undergo some sort of ritual to gain such powers... either from a powerful entity (supernatural being) that favors their people (not unlike the beings that bestow magical powers to people on Earth) or from a collective of powerful sorcerers or such. The exact nature of such empowerment will depend on the alien race involved... and can be just as varied as any other Mystically Bestowed character.

After looking at all of the information currently within the Heroes Unlimited game line, there really is no game balance issue that should prevent the Alien power category from having Mystic Weapons, Enchanted Objects or the Mystically Bestowed from being a part of the Alien Mystic category.
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by Glistam »

I don't quite follow... why are we saying Aliens can't be Magic Weapon or Enchanted Object or even Mystically Bestowed? When I look in Heroes Unlimited 2nd Edition I see as a power category option: Alien Mystic: Design as usual. Why doesn't that mean to just go to the Magic section and select one of the four options? The Robot category doesn't restrict you to one of the four types of robot, why would "Alien Mystic" restrict you to only Mystic Study?
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by Razorwing »

While in Aliens Unlimited it states that only Wizard and Spell Magic are allowed. Most people consider the AU version to be a correction to the rule (which I believe was stated in the Errata somewhere, though I have to admit I can't find it at the moment).

Since AU came after the Core, I have to assume the information in it is the most up to date take on how Aliens are to be built. Between both Aliens Unlimited and Galaxy Guide... I have only found one Alien write up where mystically inclined aliens are NOT wizards. True, the current write up of Aliens in the books is not the full potential of all the possible combinations of worlds, types and empowerment options for aliens... but when only 1 species of the mystically inclined species is even remarked as something other than a spell casting mystic, one has to wonder why? Why are there no races where they wield Mystic Weapons or use Enchanted Objects? Yes, those items are likely to be fairly rare, but there should be at least a mention or two of such champions... even if they are only one of a few of their species so empowered.

Yes, spell magic is still likely to be the most common form of mystical empowerment (nearly all life has the potential for mystic study)... but in two books about aliens, there has only been a single entry of any alien being anything other than a wizard-type caster.
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by eliakon »

Razorwing wrote:While in Aliens Unlimited it states that only Wizard and Spell Magic are allowed. Most people consider the AU version to be a correction to the rule (which I believe was stated in the Errata somewhere, though I have to admit I can't find it at the moment).

Since AU came after the Core, I have to assume the information in it is the most up to date take on how Aliens are to be built. Between both Aliens Unlimited and Galaxy Guide... I have only found one Alien write up where mystically inclined aliens are NOT wizards. True, the current write up of Aliens in the books is not the full potential of all the possible combinations of worlds, types and empowerment options for aliens... but when only 1 species of the mystically inclined species is even remarked as something other than a spell casting mystic, one has to wonder why? Why are there no races where they wield Mystic Weapons or use Enchanted Objects? Yes, those items are likely to be fairly rare, but there should be at least a mention or two of such champions... even if they are only one of a few of their species so empowered.

Yes, spell magic is still likely to be the most common form of mystical empowerment (nearly all life has the potential for mystic study)... but in two books about aliens, there has only been a single entry of any alien being anything other than a wizard-type caster.

Some people can make that assumption I guess
But it would also mean that a LOT of aliens would be illegal as well....
Since the alien generation tables in AU/AUr use different tables for everything else I don't see why one should think that they change the core book. Especially since they never say they do.
I mean I guess you can if you want to at your table. But there doesn't seem to be any reason TO do so and several demonstrable reasons NOT to.

THAT said an actual statement in a book explaining that yes, you can actually make a mystically empowered alien since yes, the rule book does say you can. Would seem to be helpful if people really are thinking that the rules in AU overwrote the rules in the Aliens section (for everything?)
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by Glistam »

In Aliens Unlimited, it also says:
"The player can select or randomly roll a power category, depending on what the Game Master allows."

Then the Random Roll table lists that restriction. So, by the book, it could be interpreted that only randomly generated aliens have to be "Wizard and spell magic only".
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by Razorwing »

When making decisions about canon, one can only make assumptions based on what is in the rules... and the most current rules trump previous ones. The tables in Aliens Unlimited are the most recent version of the Alien creation tables... so it has to be assumed that they take precedence over the more generic table in the Core Book. It would be like writing a Rifts book based solely on the information in the Original book and ignoring everything that has been developed since.

Even the character of Bloodstone from the Century Station book is arguably more of a demonic being than a Mystically Bestowed Alien (namely because he has no unpowered form like most Mystically Bestowed characters). By this reasoning any Demon could be so classified... as they are all "alien" to the Heroes Unlimited setting (and it can even be argued that they are empowered by those who rule the various Hell Dimensions). More accurately, a being like Bloodstone would be an Demonic Immortal... though that power category (Immortals) wasn't around when the Century Station book was written and it is something to be debated another time elsewhere.

Is there even one entry of any Alien having a Mystic Weapon or Object or is clearly Mystically Bestowed with power (by the same rules as other members of this class) that grants their unique abilities in any of the books currently written? At the very least, this confusion needs to be cleared up, because we have two different books with two different rulings that are both justifiable... one being the Core book (arguably the default) and the other being Aliens Unlimited (having the benefit of being written after and thus arguably the intended ruling). It is unlikely we will get an official ruling from Palladium Books on this... at least not until a new book is published with an official answer.

This is one of the reasons a Magic Unlimited book is needed... to clarify things like this, where both books are possibly right (though one has to be wrong). And this is just within a single power category that has magical powers as a side note... few aliens have mystic powers of any sort. Expanding past this one Category we still have many others like Aliens that have magical origins as a possibility, but are not exclusively one of the established Magic categories. Many Immortals have the possibility of a magical nature, as do Gestalts, Empowered, and Imbuned... though their focus is more on how their powers manifest rather than the origin of those powers (in other words, magic is more of just an explanation of where an individual got their power and may not be the same for others of the same Category). Again, a more in depth look into these tangent magical categories could offer insight into the vast potential of magical characters... to say nothing of what such a treatment to the established magical categories would provide.

But if you honestly believe I am wrong... check the material for yourself. See if you can find even one entry where an alien race (even a single member of it) in any book specifically written for Heroes Unlimited includes a character specifically enhanced by a Mystic Weapon, Enchanted Object or is Mystically Bestowed (the latter of which requires the race's unenhanced stats as well, to show what the base line members would be like). Out of the 100s of alien races in official publications so far, I have only found 2 examples of Mystically Bestowed Aliens... one is a race (Perola) that gets their power from the way they live (which isn't really bestowed by a supernatural entity) while the other (Bloodstone) seems more like a summoned demon with natural powers than an alien with granted powers (no mention of what the base line abilities of the creature's race would be like). Though both are classified as Mystically Bestowed, neither really fits the Category as described. Now, if you can find a clear example of an alien empowered by a Mystic Weapon, Enchanted Object or Bestowed as described in those sections (no "effectively"s or "considered"s), then I will concede the point to you.
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by eliakon »

Razorwing wrote:When making decisions about canon, one can only make assumptions based on what is in the rules... and the most current rules trump previous ones. The tables in Aliens Unlimited are the most recent version of the Alien creation tables... so it has to be assumed that they take precedence over the more generic table in the Core Book. It would be like writing a Rifts book based solely on the information in the Original book and ignoring everything that has been developed since.

Incorrect
It is a table, but it does not ever claim that it replaces the Base book. This is very important because the tables in HU2 give various bonuses for physical traits....traits that are figured into stats in later book aliens, but are not in the AU/AUr book
Such as...

Razorwing wrote:Even the character of Bloodstone from the Century Station book is arguably more of a demonic being than a Mystically Bestowed Alien (namely because he has no unpowered form like most Mystically Bestowed characters). By this reasoning any Demon could be so classified... as they are all "alien" to the Heroes Unlimited setting (and it can even be argued that they are empowered by those who rule the various Hell Dimensions). More accurately, a being like Bloodstone would be an Demonic Immortal... though that power category (Immortals) wasn't around when the Century Station book was written and it is something to be debated another time elsewhere.

Ummmm so what you are saying is that....
If someone shows you a canon example of what you are asking for as evidence that something is legal....
...you are saying that it doesn't count?
Because just because you don't like that he may or may not de-powered form, that doesn't mean that he is not a the power category he is presented as. Especially since it doesn't say that he IS always powered up. Nothing in his description says that he is anything more than the written statement....
...which is a mineral alien that is able to mystically augment himself....

Razorwing wrote:Is there even one entry of any Alien having a Mystic Weapon or Object or is clearly Mystically Bestowed with power (by the same rules as other members of this class) that grants their unique abilities in any of the books currently written?

Like oh say....Bloodstone?

Razorwing wrote: At the very least, this confusion needs to be cleared up, because we have two different books with two different rulings that are both justifiable... one being the Core book (arguably the default) and the other being Aliens Unlimited (having the benefit of being written after and thus arguably the intended ruling). It is unlikely we will get an official ruling from Palladium Books on this... at least not until a new book is published with an official answer.

I would say that a core book is going to be the Last Word over a book that simply provides an alternate way to generate the class....

Razorwing wrote:This is one of the reasons a Magic Unlimited book is needed... to clarify things like this, where both books are possibly right (though one has to be wrong). And this is just within a single power category that has magical powers as a side note... few aliens have mystic powers of any sort. Expanding past this one Category we still have many others like Aliens that have magical origins as a possibility, but are not exclusively one of the established Magic categories. Many Immortals have the possibility of a magical nature, as do Gestalts, Empowered, and Imbuned... though their focus is more on how their powers manifest rather than the origin of those powers (in other words, magic is more of just an explanation of where an individual got their power and may not be the same for others of the same Category). Again, a more in depth look into these tangent magical categories could offer insight into the vast potential of magical characters... to say nothing of what such a treatment to the established magical categories would provide.

I do agree that we could use a book like this. And I do agree that various other classes can be magicked up easily (which is why I made suggestions along those lines)

Razorwing wrote:But if you honestly believe I am wrong... check the material for yourself. See if you can find even one entry where an alien race (even a single member of it) in any book specifically written for Heroes Unlimited includes a character specifically enhanced by a Mystic Weapon, Enchanted Object or is Mystically Bestowed (the latter of which requires the race's unenhanced stats as well, to show what the base line members would be like). Out of the 100s of alien races in official publications so far, I have only found 2 examples of Mystically Bestowed Aliens... one is a race (Perola) that gets their power from the way they live (which isn't really bestowed by a supernatural entity) while the other (Bloodstone) seems more like a summoned demon with natural powers than an alien with granted powers (no mention of what the base line abilities of the creature's race would be like). Though both are classified as Mystically Bestowed, neither really fits the Category as described. Now, if you can find a clear example of an alien empowered by a Mystic Weapon, Enchanted Object or Bestowed as described in those sections (no "effectively"s or "considered"s), then I will concede the point to you.

Lack of proof is not proof of a lack.
Simply because there are not any aliens that use magic items does not prove I is not possible any more than the fact that there are no aliens that do not have APS Air proves that it is not possible. As for the claim that we must have the base stats of the person when depowered I see no reason to assume this. Nothing in the Mystic Bestowed says that you can not remain powered up for an indefinite length of time. Since the only way to force some one to change back is with one of two spells (both with a +4 save...)
Blood stone for instance would be +17 to save versus Negate Magic....meaning that unless you can get Spell Strength 19 he saves on a 1+....(Yes I know many GMs use the house rule of n1 always fails but that is not an official HU rule)
Since it explicitly says you get +4 against Anti-Magic cloud this means you can save against THAT on at least a 14+. Possibly on a normal save you still keep your abilities just can not cast spells depending on how you interpret the rules.
REGARDLESS. I will note that Anti-Magic cloud is a LOT less common than Negate Super Powers....yet we don't see the base line stats for every super to know what they would be like when they are stripped of their powers....even the ones in Gramercy Island who are being negated right at this moment. If we don't have those stats why should we expect to see the stats for the highly unlikely eventuality of something like Bloodstone being stripped of his powers?


Also since it is hideously common in the exemplar characters and races to violate the rules I don't really see why it would be odd to find another race that violates the rules...
Though I would like to mention the Riathenor race which in the AU books gets its powers solely from its magical artifact (magic suit of armor)
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by Glistam »

The Riathenor are an excellent example. Also a character who doesn't roll on the tables can select any category.
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by Razorwing »

I'm not going to continue debating who is right on the subject of the Alien Creation tables in AU are meant to replace those in the Core Book.

The fact is that the two contradict each other in the case of Alien Mystics. One says they can only be Mystic Study... the other says otherwise. Which is right doesn't really matter, because as far as my brainstorming for this project is concerned... I am choosing to allow Aliens access to all forms of Mystic Empowerment. You may say that is was intended all along... but at least one official table says otherwise.

As for the Bloodstone Character... he is only technically a Mystically Bestowed Alien, because that was the only way to create a Demonic Character at the time Century Station was written. There was no Immortal power Category at the time, so the only way to create a character like Bloodstone was in this way. The writer of the book has even said a few times that he had to bend a lot of the rules in the books to create the characters he wanted. Bloodstone is meant as a Demonic creature... a mystic alien juggernaut that is rather relentless in its pursuit of victims. Unfortunately the rules don't allow for mystic aliens to have natural super powers per say... so the writer needed to be a little creative in his creation of such a character. The fact that Bloodstone only has one set of stats (no unpowered stats) should be a clear give away that he has no unpowered form. Bloodstone is a demon that uses the Mystically Bestowed Alien as a template... not a Mystically Bestowed Alien that appears demonic. If Bloodstone was actually mystically bestowed his powers... who granted them to him? What was he like before he received them? What would he be like if he were stripped of such powers in ways that other Mystically Bestowed characters can (such as by an Anti-Magic Cloud spell)?

Other than Bloodstone... can you point to any other officially written characters that are clearly Aliens that are empowered by enchanted weapons, objects or were actually bestowed their power?

All you seem to be doing is pointing at the Power Category of the Character or alien race in question and say "Here's your proof that it can be done" without taking a closer look at them to see if the actually fit the power category. Bloodstone is a demon created using the available power categories at the time to create a powerful mystic monster. The Perola are an alien race that gained their abilities through a long road to enlightenment. Both are technically mystical aliens empowered by their magical origins with powers... they are not exactly proof of Mystically Bestowed Aliens as described under the Mystically Bestowed power category. Read the Mystically Bestowed power category and then reread the write-ups on these "examples" and see if you agree that they are as the Mystically Bestowed power category describes such characters.

Now... for this project, I have decided to actually provide examples of aliens that are truly empowered by alien mystic weapons, objects and have been bestowed powers that sets them beyond their peers. You will see what these aliens are normally like (unpowered) and what these Mystical Enhancements do for them. There will be a very clear difference between those who wield these powers and those who don't within the race. This is something I feel has been sorely lacking in the current books and I intend to address this in a clear what that leaves no ambiguity as to whether or not these are aliens empowered by magic or supernatural aliens/beings.

That is the point of this project... to clear up these ambiguities where it relates to magical characters... provide new options for players to create any character they can imagine (especially when it comes to magic) and to show that magical characters are still a powerful force to be reckoned with.

Aliens were just the first Power Category I was looking at. On to the next one.
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by eliakon »

Razorwing wrote:I'm not going to continue debating who is right on the subject of the Alien Creation tables in AU are meant to replace those in the Core Book.

The fact is that the two contradict each other in the case of Alien Mystics. One says they can only be Mystic Study... the other says otherwise. Which is right doesn't really matter, because as far as my brainstorming for this project is concerned... I am choosing to allow Aliens access to all forms of Mystic Empowerment. You may say that is was intended all along... but at least one official table says otherwise.

Okay, we can disagree the intent of the books and still end up at the same place (Any alien can be any magic)

Razorwing wrote:As for the Bloodstone Character... he is only technically a Mystically Bestowed Alien, because that was the only way to create a Demonic Character at the time Century Station was written. There was no Immortal power Category at the time, so the only way to create a character like Bloodstone was in this way. The writer of the book has even said a few times that he had to bend a lot of the rules in the books to create the characters he wanted. Bloodstone is meant as a Demonic creature... a mystic alien juggernaut that is rather relentless in its pursuit of victims. Unfortunately the rules don't allow for mystic aliens to have natural super powers per say... so the writer needed to be a little creative in his creation of such a character. The fact that Bloodstone only has one set of stats (no unpowered stats) should be a clear give away that he has no unpowered form. Bloodstone is a demon that uses the Mystically Bestowed Alien as a template... not a Mystically Bestowed Alien that appears demonic. If Bloodstone was actually mystically bestowed his powers... who granted them to him? What was he like before he received them? What would he be like if he were stripped of such powers in ways that other Mystically Bestowed characters can (such as by an Anti-Magic Cloud spell)?

Except that these are false premises.
Tyrano-Rex the super hero and Vukubbu are both magical permanently transformed (that's half the mystic characters in VU). Already meaning that the precedent has long been set since before second edition for this. Then in Century Station there is the Shadow Margin ten Mystic Bestowed. Then in Gramercy Island there is Serpentina Mega-Magic object (who has had her object removed!). But wait then we get to Armagedon Unlimited where we have beings like Reich who is a mutant/mystic bestowed
ALL of whom are lacking the stats for what they would be like if they were stripped of their powers. Which is not especially odd considering how rare that one way of stripping his power is. Its ludicrous to expect that every permanently transformed mystic should have their stats for if they run into Anti-Magic cloud.....but not to demand that every other super has the stats for if they run into a Negate Super Powers ability. Its a double standard that is trying to ask for something that the game has never provided and then using that lack as proof of something. ESPECIALLY since as Serpentina demonstrates they don't even always provide them for people who are explicitly depowered!

As for who or what grants him his powers...who knows? What makes mutants a mutant? "Some mystic force" I don't see people saying that Earth Angel should be dismissed because we don't know exactly who is backing her.


Razorwing wrote:Other than Bloodstone... can you point to any other officially written characters that are clearly Aliens that are empowered by enchanted weapons, objects or were actually bestowed their power?

Not to repeat myself but.... Riathenor? since "The new wearer of the suit has all of the same powers and abilities as the riathenors, including the same spell casting abilities."
And yes I am well aware that they retconned them in Galaxy Guide.
But when AU was written (i.e. when supposedly the rules were changed to prohibit aliens from getting their powers from a magic object....they were exactly that. An entire alien race that received its powers from magic objects. So at that time it was exactly what was being asked for.)

Razorwing wrote:All you seem to be doing is pointing at the Power Category of the Character or alien race in question and say "Here's your proof that it can be done" without taking a closer look at them to see if the actually fit the power category. Bloodstone is a demon created using the available power categories at the time to create a powerful mystic monster. The Perola are an alien race that gained their abilities through a long road to enlightenment. Both are technically mystical aliens empowered by their magical origins with powers... they are not exactly proof of Mystically Bestowed Aliens as described under the Mystically Bestowed power category. Read the Mystically Bestowed power category and then reread the write-ups on these "examples" and see if you agree that they are as the Mystically Bestowed power category describes such characters.

Just because you don't want them to be examples doesn't make them not examples. It just means that they are not examples that you like. As I have proved before, as there is no precedent for providing the depowered form of a being, there is no reason to claim that lack of such is proof that it can not exist. Especially in the light of the multiple examples through out several books demonstrating that permanent transformation is explicitly a possibility for this.

Razorwing wrote:Now... for this project, I have decided to actually provide examples of aliens that are truly empowered by alien mystic weapons, objects and have been bestowed powers that sets them beyond their peers. You will see what these aliens are normally like (unpowered) and what these Mystical Enhancements do for them. There will be a very clear difference between those who wield these powers and those who don't within the race. This is something I feel has been sorely lacking in the current books and I intend to address this in a clear what that leaves no ambiguity as to whether or not these are aliens empowered by magic or supernatural aliens/beings.

That would be interesting. But as I have said, its not something that is even consistently done with humans.

Razorwing wrote:That is the point of this project... to clear up these ambiguities where it relates to magical characters... provide new options for players to create any character they can imagine (especially when it comes to magic) and to show that magical characters are still a powerful force to be reckoned with.

Aliens were just the first Power Category I was looking at. On to the next one.
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by ScottBernard »

Id like to see some more of your ideas razorwing. Thought Id post this in case youd been put off by the reaction of some.
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by Razorwing »

No I haven't been put off by the reaction of a few individuals... just going over different source materials to see how to expand the various Magical Power Categories (namely the 4 main ones). Yes, I am looking at some of the other game lines in doing so (such as Rune Weapons in Rifts/PF and Artifacts from Nightbane) for some possibilities and the amount of abilities that can be added is quite impressive (especially for Mystic Weapons).

Rule #1 with me: if someone tells me not to do something because it is a stupid idea, it only makes sure I will give it everything I have to prove that someone wrong.

I just decided to stop wasting time arguing with someone determined to prove that Aliens can be something other than Mystic Study when the few examples of such things are meant to be unique exceptions to the rule rather than proof that the rule doesn't exist. Even if we include the Riathenors (who have always been empowered by a Simbyote rather than a mystic object), that brings the total number of examples of Aliens empowered by something other than Spells to a grand total of 3... and all 3 explicitly state that they are unique examples of such (Bloodstone is a demon, Riathenors are symbiotic and the Perola gained their abilities through centuries of seeking enlightenment as a united race/species).

Once my ideas have been refined a bit more, I intend to share them (either here or as a Rifter article). Sadly, this will take a little time as I am doing this while dealing with normal life commitments (work, family, friends, etc.). As long as you are willing to be patient, you will see something.
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by Fermat »

Personally one of the things I'm working on is a ritualist/occult detective type build. Can't cast spells, but can prepare spells to be released later. A little Alchemist, a little technowizardry, a little magic object, a dash of summoner/diabolist; all mixed together. I'm currently playing with allowing them to alter how a spell works, similar to a technowizard, when it is created, but it all has be prefabricated and pre-defined, but no need to spend PPE at that moment.
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by eliakon »

Since all that is needed for the Alien issue is tow simple sentences "Yes, Aliens can still be any form of Magic Class, and are not limited to Mystic Study. This has never been changed, but is now being clarified to make it obvious."
Then if really wanted a few examples might be provided. Since the Riathenor were Retconned to no longer be a race empowered by a Mystic Object/Mystic Weapon it might be interesting to provide an example of such a race, as well as a race that has a racial patron or other mystical force the entire race can tap into to be empowered (classic empowered).
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by acreRake »

I think there is design space for other categories getting into magic also. There are characters in the source material that have access to specifically magical abilities via "inherent" abilities. Also, in other PB games there are characters who gain access to spells and other magic psionically (most notably the mystic).
Of course, in my own games anytime a mutant or experiment rolls an unknown or unexplained origin for powers, a wizard did it.

I also think it's weird that the analytical genius is the one who can create magic objects, don't you?

ps. Don't be silly of course aliens have objects/weapons/bestowals.
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by Damian Magecraft »

acreRake wrote:I think there is design space for other categories getting into magic also. There are characters I the source material that have access to specifically magical abilities via "inherent" abilities. Also, in other PB games there are characters who gain access to spells and other magic psionically (most notably the mystic).
Of course, in my own games anytime a mutant or experiment rolls an unknown or unexplained origin for powers, a wizard did it.

I also think it's weird that the analytical genius is the one who can create magic objects, don't you?

ps. Don't be silly of course aliens have objects/weapons/bestowals.

Pretty sure the "debate" over aliens getting full access to the magic category is RAI vs RAW.
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by eliakon »

acreRake wrote:I think there is design space for other categories getting into magic also. There are characters I the source material that have access to specifically magical abilities via "inherent" abilities. Also, in other PB games there are characters who gain access to spells and other magic psionically (most notably the mystic).
Of course, in my own games anytime a mutant or experiment rolls an unknown or unexplained origin for powers, a wizard did it.

I also think it's weird that the analytical genius is the one who can create magic objects, don't you?

ps. Don't be silly of course aliens have objects/weapons/bestowals.

I'm with you on this. However some people have been arguing that they can't. So to clear up any confusion I guess a book on magic should actually spell out that yes, yes they can.

For my part I think one of the things that would be most helpful is some information on converting the TONS of magic stuff that is already out there to work for HU.
Rifts has a LOT of magic that could be mined for some really cool stuff....but it will have to have the MDC/SDC thing figured out. And, no its not as easy as just remove all the M's and slap on some S's. Sometimes the numbers need to go up or down to fit. And defenses need Armor Ratings (and we need to know if they are natural or not). Some explicit rules on how Mystic Study class characters learn/invent spells and what spells they can learn/invent would be very helpful as well. We all know they can learn invocation spells.....but what about Necromancy? Temporal Magic? Space Magic? Whalesongs? Any other exotic branch of magic I care to mention (there are several dozen in the game by now).
How about some canon clarification on the RCB1 rule that says that Men of Magic can not have Super Powers. Which while it may be true in the RIFTS game, we know to be false in the HU game given the presence of such as an explicit option.

Variation I have used is to make magic items that 'level up' Like the continuous mutation or the Mystic Study the item starts with a base set of abilities. As the owner learns to synchronize better with it (or other technobabble of choice) they learn to 'get more out of it'....i.e. they find that there are additional spells/powers/ppe/spell strength/what have you.
This, combined with upping the abilities of the Mystic Object to be closer to those of the Mystic Weapon have made these categories more popular.
For Mystic Imbued I have offered a carrot approach. If the person truly roleplays the goals of the empowering force they can get boons later on.
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by Daniel Stoker »

One of the things I'd like is something like this:

Glistam wrote:In review of these spells I definitely feel Mystic Shield is still too unbalanced when compared to Energy Field. A solution I am considering is to make the extra amount of S.D.C. which Mystic Shield provides cost a proportional amount of P.P.E.. So for example, if a Level 3 caster were to cast the spell and only spent 10 P.P.E., they would only get the 60 S.D.C. field. But if they spent 30 P.P.E. when the spell was cast, they would get a 180 S.D.C. field.


For all spells. How many times in comics do we see a caster pumping all their energy into a spell to make it stronger. Rules like that where it's longer/harder to cast and uses up more PPE to make a power stronger/better.


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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by Razorwing »

In many Modern Earth settings that contain elements of magic (BtS, HU, NB, and even Chaos/Rifts Earth at the same point in time) has Earth as a magic low world. Most claim that magic was at one point much higher than it currently is, and some even give hints as to how and when magic began to decline (and in the case of Chaos/Rifts Earth, when Magic returned).

So what of HU Earth? If, like these other settings, the world was once rich in magic, what was it that lead to its decline? Well, the setting does postulate that "superbeings" have probably existed throughout history... often appearing at regular intervals en mass, creating opposing pantheons that eventually clash in a titanic battle and then vanish for generations before the whole thing starts up again. It is likely that the earliest of these "Clashes of Titans" was between magically empowered beings... and like the Atlanteans of Chaos/Rifts Earth or the Battle with the Nightlords in the Nightbane setting, triggered a decline in the ambient levels of magic... a decline that, like in other settings, would continue for centuries... with fewer magical oriented beings appearing in future conflicts (replaced by mutants, psychics... and eventually tech enhanced beings).

Now, we also know that while magic can decline over time, we also know that it can also return to previous levels... and more. Chaos/Rifts Earth is an example of a sudden resurgence in magic where the reappearance triggers disasters and the collapse of civilization for decades, even centuries. The Armageddon Plot from Armageddon Unlimited attempted to cause such a sudden and destructive resurgence in magic on HU Earth. However, the Nightbane setting has shown that a more gradual return of magic is also possible, as the events that lead to the return of the Nightlords has realigned Earth with various planes of existence, increasing magic around the world and has also lead to a resurgence of spiritualism and interest in mysticism within the human population (an unexplained world-wide mystical event like Dark Day is likely to have that kind of effect on people). Perhaps this latest resurgence of heroes and villains will herald a return of magic... violently or subtlety.

So I am curious as to any explanations others have had as to the decline in magic for their games... provided they have even addressed the issue. What has lead to the low levels of magic in your games? Has there been any attempts to revive the levels of magic? Was it a violent return of power... or something more subtle? Did it succeed or was it thwarted? Were the players the ones attempting this... or was it villains who wanted to take advantage of magic's return? How do you see the return of magic affecting modern society... both a violent return and a more subtle resurgence?
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by ScottBernard »

Has anyone come up with additional abilities for enchanted weapons and objects?
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by The Oh So Amazing Nate »

Damian Magecraft wrote:and perhaps a Special Training Unlim as well.


I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this. because my brain shamefully pipped up "Buy Ninja's & Super Spies.
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by Shadowknight »

Here are 2 ideas I've always had but Palladium never seems to do anything with.

1. People learning their magic abilities Ala Harry Potter secret type schools, while the traditional Master, Student would still exist the ones who went to a secret magic university who have advantages.

2. The ability to specialize. I not talking about Warlock since that's more of a partnership with Elemental and IIRC they really don't study for spells. I'm talking about people who specialize in certain types of spells and bc of their specialization they receive bonus to their spell strength, damage, range and area effect. The negative would be they slightly less powerful than a regular mage in areas outside of their specialty. It would be similar to a General Practitioner or Internist vs Brain Surgeon or Heart Specialist. While all 3 could treat you for a broken arm or in infection, but if you had a heart problem or a fracture skull you would recieve more likely than not superior treatment from the specialist.
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by The Oh So Amazing Nate »

Shadowknight wrote:Here are 2 ideas I've always had but Palladium never seems to do anything with.

1. People learning their magic abilities Ala Harry Potter secret type schools, while the traditional Master, Student would still exist the ones who went to a secret magic university who have advantages.



In a history class centuries later, "And here we have children, the idea that socioeconomic class should be used to determine a wizards education and therefore standing and value to the community. This let to a socioeconomic and political system similar to that of ancient France. The rich keep getting richer and maintain the higher orders of society, while the poor dirty, and undereducated wizards toiled far below in the muck and the mire. Eventually this would lead to War.
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by Glistam »

Shadowknight wrote:2. The ability to specialize. I not talking about Warlock since that's more of a partnership with Elemental and IIRC they really don't study for spells. I'm talking about people who specialize in certain types of spells and bc of their specialization they receive bonus to their spell strength, damage, range and area effect. The negative would be they slightly less powerful than a regular mage in areas outside of their specialty. It would be similar to a General Practitioner or Internist vs Brain Surgeon or Heart Specialist. While all 3 could treat you for a broken arm or in infection, but if you had a heart problem or a fracture skull you would recieve more likely than not superior treatment from the specialist.

Check out Rifter #30, there is an article in that book which is devoted to this idea. It may work well for you.
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by RockJock »

I like the book idea, but I see it as the six of one, half a dozen of the other situation as far as what would be in it. If PB wrote an entirely new MU book, with a conversion section for other settings I would be extremely happy. What I expect is a cut and paste book with versions of the Para-Arcanist, Spell Thief, Sword of Atlantis, Battle Magi, and Half Wizard all in one place. If it was the latter I would probably buy the book, but it would add little to my game, that isn't already there from the Megaverse.
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by say652 »

I think enchanted object power category is fine. Its supposed to have that normal guy with a magic ring feel.


But Adding in different types of Mystic Study would be cool.

As far as Mystic Bestowed, they already are Power House characters with more sdc than anything except Mega Heroes.

Perhaps adding in an Mages Apprentice or other Magic Minor Hero would be cool.

Imo Heroes Unlimited needs nonNerfed power conversion rules to Mdc settings instead of the weakened why bother using super powers conversions currently in place.

Or even better an Sdc Version of Rifts specifically designed to be used with Heroes Unlimited.

Just my opinion though.
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by Damian Magecraft »

The Oh So Amazing Nate wrote:
Damian Magecraft wrote:and perhaps a Special Training Unlim as well.


I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this. because my brain shamefully pipped up "Buy Ninja's & Super Spies.

I sorta just tossed that out there for completeness sake.
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by Razorwing »

Well it has been quite a few months since I last visited this subject... been on vacation for two of them even. While on vacation I gave some serious thought on what I would include in such a sourcebook. Mind you, these ideas are preliminary at best and need to be fleshed out quite a bit, leaving plenty or room for additional material.

First, would be Magic defined and explained within the context of Heroes Unlimited. This includes what place magical heroes occupy and what makes them truly unique in a heroes setting. It would also explore magic through the ages, from the dawn of civilization and prehistory, through the rise and fall of known empires all the way to the present and even possible futures. Then there is the question of how worlds loose and gain magical energy... from the cataclysmic events such as experienced by Rifts Earth, to more subtle events like the slow draining of magic experienced on Palladium Fantasy... and what this could mean for the Earth of Heroes Unlimited. Lastly in this section, we would explore ley lines, nexus points and super nexus and how these places interact with various levels of world magic as well as powers that detect the presence of magic.

From here we explore new ideas for magical heroes, including revisiting the current magical classes. Everyone knows about the hero who wields a magical weapon... but what if such a weapon could wield itself and grow stronger over time (taking inspiration from the Ruins to Runes article from the Rifter)? One way to bring Mystic Objects back up to the power level of other Mystics and Heroes would be giving them the ability to unlock additional powers... making them a progressive character similar to Mystic Study and Psychics (and some Mutants). As has been mentioned before, Mystic Study could be expanded upon by allowing additional areas of mystic study, like Necromancy and such. As for the Bestowed Hero Category... not every supernatural being will bestow powers upon a mortal... some choose to empower a construct... a statue or a golem, creating a whole new category of Mystically Bestowed heroes to explore. Finally, we would explore some of the other Power Categories that has an option for magic... such as Aliens and Immortals (as well as others).

Lastly, we would explore some of the notable mystic organizations operating in the world... some that have been mentioned while others are new (as in not previously known... though some may actually be recent gatherings). This would also include notable wizards and mystic heroes that are operating in the world (and their usual areas of operation).

I do have much more detailed notes that I made during my vacation... and once I have them polished up a little (didn't have access to my books so I need to reference some things to bring them in line to what has already been published in the greater Palladium Megaverse), I will be happy to share them with the rest of you.
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by The Artist Formerly »

Razorwing wrote:A fairly recent thread has gotten me thinking that perhaps it is time to revisit and revise the role of magic in Heroes Unlimited.

Now, most people would say that Magic in a modern super-hero setting is not a huge thing... since few heroes are going to have access to such powers. Of course these people don't realize that magic is one of the three main sources of power for heroes... Technology and Inherent Powers being the other two. Okay... magic may be the smallest of these... but that doesn't make it any less important than Tech books like Hardware Unlimited that is due out... or any of the Powers Unlimited books (which, incidentally does include a few new categories that can be seen as mystically infused).

Then there are potential world threats like the one seen in Armageddon Unlimited which many Techies and Inherents would be blind to until it is too late. Just as it takes a expert to dismantle a high tech doomsday weapon safely, so too would it take an expert in magic to stop a magical threat... something very few heroes are able to claim. Even famous hero teams like the Justice League or the Avengers will seek out advice when they come up against mystical threats... often turning to magical characters like Zatanna or Dr. Strange in such cases.

This means that Mystic characters will often be at the fore front of many mystic conflicts... many that fight in the shadows, but could spill out into the streets. The Minion War between Hades and Dyval were but two of the many hell dimensions that exist... how many more are out there that have plans for Earth... and who are opposing them? As explained in Armageddon Unlimited, many heroes greatly underestimate the power of supernatural creatures (in recent Avengers cartoons, Tony Stark is constantly doing this... much to his continued regret soon afterwards).

Additionally, while many other power categories have gotten slight power increases with new books... Mystic power categories haven't seen as great an increase. True, some categories may not need it (Mystic Weapons seems fairly strong at the moment), but other do (Enchanted Objects are arguably the weakest category in game... possibly even weaker than the Minor Heroes category from PU2). There is also no arguing that the Mystic Study category could use more diversification... at least with more spells available (and no... merely telling someone to convert spells from another game line that they may or may not have is not a valid argument, merely an additional option).

So I honestly think that a Magic Unlimited book that further explores these types of characters, the threats they face and expand their options would be a very interesting book. We could even delve into the Earth's mystic and mythic past when Magic was the most common way of achieving power (with Tech and Inherent powers being far less common). It could explore theories as to why magical forces have diminished over the centuries... and who is to say that magic won't make a comeback one day? The Rifts game line has proven that magic can be reborn with a vengeance... and Armageddon Unlimited provided a plot that could possibly achieve such a result. Imagine what would happen if magic were to make a comeback... similar to what has happened in the Nightbane game line where it wasn't quite as violent as it is with Rifts or the Armageddon plot... a realignment of planes that strengthens the magical forces of Earth... maybe even something similar to what might be happening in the Dead Reign game line (complete with a secret cult that seeks to be the new world leaders in this new age of magic).

This is why I am writing this thread... to brainstorm ideas on what people might expect from such a book... what they would like to see... and what to avoid. Which Mystic Power categories should be enhanced... and which merely need new options (or are even good as is). How about suggestions for mystical societies... good and evil? What about the mystic past of the world... what should it be like? How about the possible mystic future, how do you see a return of magic?

I am open to any ideas... but there is no guarantee that anything (even the potential book that could result from this) will happen from this discussion.


At the mechanics level, spell magic is bothersome to use. It's slow, has a price per action cost, a regeneration time table, random assortment of new spells on leveling up and most of the spells available focus on elements that are more useful in a dungeon then they are in a street fight. When compared to regeneration + hand to hand combat skillz +gunz + Katana + snappy one liners, it hard to see why anyone would want to play a spell caster.

For this to work, it needs to be faster. With a hard cap of two spells per 15 seconds (HU 2E page 319) for the low level spells we have a serious limiter right there. As the mage levels up, he'll have extra actions which he can't use for magic. Maybe carrying a gun? But if I have a gun, why bother with magic?

Next you need a better damage arc. Of the lower level, fast spells, the best pay out for damage is fire bolt, which gives us a 5d6 hit (average of 17, assuming 3 threes, and 2 fours). That's inferior to a simple 9mm handgun fired as a burst 3d6x2 ( average of 20 points, assuming 2 threes and 1 four, times 2).

PPE per spell is another hang up in the use of magic. Almost everyone else can use their powers at will as often as they want. The mage has a hard cap on his power usage, and every ten points of PPE spent is a hour of down time doing nothing while the rest of the party is solving crimes with skill checks, drinking beer or watching Simon and Simon reruns. That's no fun.

As the mage levels up, he doesn't gain access to new spells comenserate with his new power level, he gains access to whatever he randomly rolled plus two low level spells that match his current level (which doesn't tie well with the palladium level system vs the spell magic system). Which just as often as not means he gets crappy spells from levels he didn't want or spells so high level and PPE expensive, he can't cast them in a useful way.

Spells need to be more flexible. Each spell does just one thing, and if you want something different, then you need to get another spell. When compared to the tool box approach of most of the major power selections or the abilities of the skill monkey genius categories, the mage is very limited. A spell that creates a globe of light is neat, but you can buy a flash light that does roughly the same thing. That globe might be useful in PFRPG but here in heroes, if there is simple tech that does the same thing, why bother with magic?

Magic items. From Dr. Strange to D&D, mages us magic items to reinforce their abilities. A mechanic that lets the player either acquire or build their own magic wouldn't go amiss. I'd also point out that Marvel comic's second most powerful magic user uses a suit of power armor that lets him tank the fantastic four (and he carries a gun). Even in comics, no one relies on straight up spell magic.

So before you can fix the role playing element of the game the mechanics of playing a wizard have to be addressed. Beating up bad guys is fun, saving the day is fun, being the weak link in the chain that the other PCs have save, not so much.
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by Glistam »

Magic vs Superpowers is almost the same tired argument as Magic vs Technology. If you want to punch things hard, or do a lot of damage in your attacks, don't play a mage. You play a mage because you want a unique character with a varied toolbox. A Mystic Study or another character who uses magic spells is a different type of character for a different type of superhero game.
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by The Artist Formerly »

Glistam wrote:Magic vs Superpowers is almost the same tired argument as Magic vs Technology. If you want to punch things hard, or do a lot of damage in your attacks, don't play a mage. You play a mage because you want a unique character with a varied toolbox. A Mystic Study or another character who uses magic spells is a different type of character for a different type of superhero game.

Washed into a group of other PCs, though, it's mechanically inferior. What you're talking about is basically the GM building a campaign just around the mage PC. That puts constraints on the rest of the group. In standard play, the mage character is the weak link, he gets two spells and then waits while the other PCs pound on the bad guys. In focused on the mage play the other players are cooling their heels. Neither are these fun. Razorwing is looking to address the problems, and this is what I've encountered.
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by Glistam »

The Artist Formerly wrote:
Glistam wrote:Magic vs Superpowers is almost the same tired argument as Magic vs Technology. If you want to punch things hard, or do a lot of damage in your attacks, don't play a mage. You play a mage because you want a unique character with a varied toolbox. A Mystic Study or another character who uses magic spells is a different type of character for a different type of superhero game.

Washed into a group of other PCs, though, it's mechanically inferior. What you're talking about is basically the GM building a campaign just around the mage PC. That puts constraints on the rest of the group. In standard play, the mage character is the weak link, he gets two spells and then waits while the other PCs pound on the bad guys. In focused on the mage play the other players are cooling their heels. Neither are these fun. Razorwing is looking to address the problems, and this is what I've encountered.

The only issue I've encountered mixing mages with superheroes is that the heroes have a hard time believing in magic. That's always been an RP thing though, and nothing to do with the mechanics.
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by LeeNapier »

What I'd like to see (CAVEAT: I don't have all the Palladium books, so if any of these already exist in writing somewhere, please let me know):

Rules for characters creating unique or signature spells.

A hard-and-fast rule on absorbing PPE from the environment around you (or other people, animals, etc.). How much can you get, how long does it take, how often can you try, and the like.

Heroes Unlimited 1st ed. had Illusionists - I'd like to see them brought back and other specialists (as noted above) created. This is as simple as listing the spells and dividing them into categories - but specialists should have some skills and bonuses unique to their specialization. These, like the options for supersoldiers in PU2, would be options for Mystic study, not full-fledged character classes.

More spells that interact with superpowers (specifically for HU, but can be used, obv., with other settings). Bestowing powers, negating powers, warping powers, duplicating powers, spells vs. physical or mental powers specifically, etc.

Expanded section on minor magic items (or weapons like the ones Immortals can get) - and how to enchant them.

A section on mystical places in HU Earth. (i.e., what's in Century Station? The rest of the world?) Expand on one or two locations and the threats you might encounter there.

Items of Legend/Artifacts.
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by Daniel Stoker »

The Artist Formerly wrote:For this to work, it needs to be faster. With a hard cap of two spells per 15 seconds (HU 2E page 319) for the low level spells we have a serious limiter right there. As the mage levels up, he'll have extra actions which he can't use for magic. Maybe carrying a gun? But if I have a gun, why bother with magic?


I admit it's been ages since I haven't played with the updated Rifts casting rules as it does at least give them a leg up compared to this.


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LeeNapier
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by LeeNapier »

Glistam wrote:The only issue I've encountered mixing mages with superheroes is that the heroes have a hard time believing in magic. That's always been an RP thing though, and nothing to do with the mechanics.


I've always found this hilarious: that people with innate, physics-defying powers and mental abilities, people who've met and fought aliens, should have a lack of belief in magic. It seems so arbitrary.

You don't necessarily want these things to become banal, but my characters, when I play, get geeked out when they find out magic is real.

Maybe there needs to be a section on the canonical history of magic in HU Earth (what's known, believed, and unknown). Is this like the World of Darkness settings (where magic is purposefully kept hidden from the muggles) or is this more like Piers Anthony's Incarnations of Immortality series (where magic is accepted, and used extensively), or somewhere in between (like in comics, where it seems to be rare but accepted)?
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by The Artist Formerly »

Daniel Stoker wrote:
The Artist Formerly wrote:For this to work, it needs to be faster. With a hard cap of two spells per 15 seconds (HU 2E page 319) for the low level spells we have a serious limiter right there. As the mage levels up, he'll have extra actions which he can't use for magic. Maybe carrying a gun? But if I have a gun, why bother with magic?


I admit it's been ages since I haven't played with the updated Rifts casting rules as it does at least give them a leg up compared to this.


Daniel Stoker

Maybe? I quit rifts back when Free Quebec came out, and then I got a couple of the siege on Tolkeen books much later from Hasting used section, but that was still the rules as of then for Rifts as well. I used to tease Darklord about Psionics>Magic.

The rules as I have them for Heroes however don't give such an advantage. In terms of game play, this is significant mechanical disadvantage. In a game setting where fifteen seconds game time can take three minutes to sort out, spending more then half that time sitting on your thumbs while other players are having fun is dull.
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by The Artist Formerly »

Glistam wrote:
The Artist Formerly wrote:
Glistam wrote:Magic vs Superpowers is almost the same tired argument as Magic vs Technology. If you want to punch things hard, or do a lot of damage in your attacks, don't play a mage. You play a mage because you want a unique character with a varied toolbox. A Mystic Study or another character who uses magic spells is a different type of character for a different type of superhero game.

Washed into a group of other PCs, though, it's mechanically inferior. What you're talking about is basically the GM building a campaign just around the mage PC. That puts constraints on the rest of the group. In standard play, the mage character is the weak link, he gets two spells and then waits while the other PCs pound on the bad guys. In focused on the mage play the other players are cooling their heels. Neither are these fun. Razorwing is looking to address the problems, and this is what I've encountered.

The only issue I've encountered mixing mages with superheroes is that the heroes have a hard time believing in magic. That's always been an RP thing though, and nothing to do with the mechanics.

Huh. How big is your group? Does your group tend towards certain themes or play styles?
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Re: Magic Unlimited Brainstorming

Unread post by Daniel Stoker »

The Artist Formerly wrote:Maybe? I quit rifts back when Free Quebec came out, and then I got a couple of the siege on Tolkeen books much later from Hasting used section, but that was still the rules as of then for Rifts as well. I used to tease Darklord about Psionics>Magic.

The rules as I have them for Heroes however don't give such an advantage. In terms of game play, this is significant mechanical disadvantage. In a game setting where fifteen seconds game time can take three minutes to sort out, spending more then half that time sitting on your thumbs while other players are having fun is dull.


Yeah, until a new book comes out with magic in it I don't expect to see an official switch to the Rifts casting, but it's a lot better then what we have right now in HU2. And Psionics does have a lot of advantages but then you have things like Psi-Sword needing you to wait a melee round to summon it and 5 hours of meditation to recover from. In theory with magic you can at least meditate on a Ley Line or use a Talisman etc, but still there are some major issues with both in a Super Hero universe.


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