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Unread postPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 2:53 am
  

D-Bee

Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2007 6:23 pm
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Hi all! I'm new to the forum, first time poster. What led me here (to Palladium in general) is a growing obsession with Nightbane. I've played a few other Pallium games with friends, but Nightbane was gathering dust and out of curiosity I started flipping through it, and promptly bought every world book (including Shadows of Light...Pricey), and several rifters (to make a huge Morphus chart). So, yes, obsession is there, and I have a few things I'm wondering if anyone has answers to.

One of the things that irks me is the Void ships. It seems as if in the first few books, there's a big, big deal about them, along with a huge mystery, then nothing. Can anyone offer an explanation beyond whats in the core books, or point something out I might have missed?

I just finished reading a post about how Nightbane's not supposed to be crossed over with Rifts (all conversation of it being up to GMs aside, of course). I was under the impression that Nightbane fit in similarly to Heroes Unlimited, around the same time. It seems like Nightbane almost offers an interesting take on what caused Rifts Earth. Like I said, I haven't read a single book on Rifts outside of what i needed to make a character, but I've chatted with friends, and have a pretty good grasp on it (I think). In the back of Through The Glass Darkly, there's a bit about how the war between the government/Guardians is weakening the mirror wall. Combining that with the way the Nightlands reflects the "real world," I thought this would lead to a final conflict where the government would send the Nukes and the Nightlords would do their equivalent, and voila, we have Rifts. I thought that the Nightlands would have the same trouble Earth would with repelling the same invading forces. Long story short, I take it this would be way off, in terms of Palladium timeline?

On the topic of crossovers, I also thought that some of the character types in Nightbane ended up as important characters in Rifts. I've heard that Rifts Europe has a Pendragon at the head of the round table...Wouldn't there be a relation to the Pendragon mentioned as the progenitor of the Nocturnes? I was also told something about a group that looks out for the tree of life that sounded like it was somewhere between the Guardians and the Lightbringers. I could be way off, but this is where I was taking it.

I'm also curious about the Formless Ones...Are they mentioned in Palladium fantasy? Is there any source material I wouldn't have on the first Great Society and all that?

I figured I should come out swinging for my first post. Thanks to anyone who reads this. :)


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Unread postPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 10:33 am
  

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Don't taint Nightbane with Rifts... it'll just get messy.

Void ships... I wish I could answer for you. I think CJ Carella planned to take that somewhere and then well you know what happens to most of the good writers that work for palladium.

I don't think the Lightbringers have anything to do with guarding the tree of life or that the same pendragon is in both worlds... again if you want to make a conversion this is all up to you as the GM. I just wouldn't suggest it myself. I love Nightbane way too much to try to mix it up with Rifts.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 1:57 pm
  

Explorer

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Welcome to Nightbane
Quite possibly (and in my opinion, most certainly) the greatest game Palladium has made.


The reason that Nightbane doesn't technically have anything to do with Rifts is mostly due to the nature of Nightbane's setting, and it's tone.

Rifts is about dimension spanning strange adventure, heroes going and romping about with strange gadgets and magic. It's a place of fantatical beasts and machines and faeries, robots, and dragons. It's about heading out, blowing up the bad guys, and saving the damsel in distress.
Nightbane is about shadow wars, and hiding who you truly are while still trying to let that inner you have a place in the world. It's a place of betrayal, greater and lesser evils, paranoia, and cruelty and fear. It's about trying to fight an enemy that nobody believes exists at best, and at worst believes you to be a part of that enemy.

In the cosmology of Nightbane, there is Earth and there is the Nightlands, and there is the Astral Plane and there is the Dream Stream. The nightlands is a dark reflection of earth, the dream stream is the playground of the unconscious minds of earth, and the astral plane is an intellectual psychic plane aboe and around earth. It pretty much centers everything around earth and the nightlands, and their link. There are many factions, but at the end of it all it basically boils down to pure good with the guardians and pure evil with the nightlords, and then you're left sorting out shades of grey.
Rifts isn't about good or evil, it's about power. All the bad guys might be evil, but they aren't evil for the sake of evil, they're evil over power.
The Nightlords are about as pure evil as one gets.

They wanted to keep the cosmology of Nightbane seperate from Rifts, not because Rifts couldn't include nightbane but because it might ruin the 'feel' of nightbane if Rifts leaked into it.

Void Ships:
I agree with the theory above, where it's somethign that CJ had wanted to get into, but he no longer works with Palladium and the new writers had far more interest in workign with other material in the game.

Palladium Timeline:
Officially, it doesn't fit into the Palladium timeline at all.
At best, it is in it's own little seperate dimension very thoroughly locked away from everything else.
Chaos Earth is actually made to deal with Earth at the time of the appearance of the Rifts. Rifts was actually sparked by a nuclear missile exchange, and the massive release of PPE at the instantaneous deaths of so many people all at once sparked the coming of the Rifts.
You could easilym write your own background and have it work exactly as you just described, but in the official timeline of Palladium books it is seperate from every other game and (while you can write things together, yourself) it is not intended to be integrated with any other setting. It can be, but it is not written with that in mind.

Your ideas on similar characters makign it fromm Nightbane into Rifts is an interesting possbility that youyourself can work with, but Rifts does not draw on anything from Nightbane in it's writings.

As for the Formless Ones, no they are not mentioned in other books elsewhere. They are unique to the Nightbane cosmology, and as such have nothing to do with the rest of the Megaverse. What you see in the books is what you get.


I hope that answers your questions, and again, welcome to Nightbane!

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Unread postPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 2:14 pm
  

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That's a well written summary of the setting.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 2:18 pm
  

D-Bee

Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2007 6:23 pm
Posts: 4
Cool. Thanks a lot for your help...I have a tendency to look too far in to things, so I think I read the first book and assumed it was all part of a giant tapestry in the Megaverse.

I think I do kind of like the thought of potential crossovers. I don't know if it should be two ways yet, but I want to eventually drop my players off in Rifts, just because of the psychological damage it would be to a specific character. Being a Nightbane is a hellish life in and of itself, but start before Dark Day, let them discover questions and figure out what happens, run several adventures, get them to the all-too-necessary epic battle and final confrontation and, if they survive, why not force them into a world where everything they learned turns out to be useless? The battle between good and evil, as you said, is all but useless in Rifts. So you have a group of characters twice displaced, and that's before the roleplaying starts...Who knows what they'll do to themselves.

I maintain the Void Ships bother the crap out of me. I want to use them, and will most likely end up using them and coming up with some fun history for them, but I hate doing that for specific things that seem important in a universe. I like to toy with a universes loopholes and intrigue, not invent a section that later turns out to be wrong. I don't like running inconsistent games, y'know?

So, among the questions I forgot to ask, any thoughts on the Abjudicator, mouthpiece of the Nocturnes? I was thinking he could be Iosef Pendragon, or perhaps the Wanderer...Or, since it appears in Shadows of Light, I thought maybe he would be one of the Gregorians...but that doesn't describe his huge shape hinted at...I feel like I'm toying with tons of ideas with the entirety of the game. And, of course, if I were to propose these to my friends, well, then the game would be ruined for my players, wouldn't it? Defeats the whole mystery of the game thing. =)


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Unread postPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 3:18 pm
  

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Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2001 2:01 am
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Don't be afraid to make up something for the Voidships only to have it changed later on in a book. It probably won't happen.

It has been years since Shadows of Light was printed.
It was years between Through the Glass Darkly and Shadows of Light.

Nightbane doesn't see much support. There's a fair bit in the Rifters as optional material (I'm a real fan of the Inlustris from Rifter #1) but as far as book releases go, there's been very little.

Palladium apparently has a team of freelancers working on a new book right now, but you have to keep a few things in mind:
#1 Palladium has a history of planning books, and even announcing books, that never get printed. For one reason or another, things get too busy, there wasn't actually enough ideas for a whole book, or most often it's because of my next point.
#2 Palladium has a history of difficulties with freelancers. That being said, there are many freelancers that have had nothing but fun and success working with Palladium, but there are also many that have stopped working with Palladium suddenly and usually while in the middle of a book. Usually this is because (as I can see from everything that everyone has said) Kevin has a specific vision of how any given project should work out, and then there is difficulty in translating this to the freelancer(s).
#3 Even if we see another book, and even if we see it in the next couple years, it is entirely possible (I would even say it is likely) that there will be nothing about Voidships in it. Honestly, I've been running the game for years, and never used them. Which just brings up point #4
#4 If something gets written, you can choose to ignore it in your game. I've never liked the inclusion of the Gregorians (I think I'm not alone in this) and have never used them. In my games, I've never needed them. Hell, right now I'm running a Nightbane game with no Nightbane! I thought it would be cool to try writing the setting without them, and see how things would go down, and it's going great so far.

So go ahead and do what you want with the Voidships. Hell, better yet, write it up and put it here on the boards or send it to the Rifter.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:00 am
  

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Just quickly on the concept of Rifts Nightbane Conversion, There is a small small mention of a nightbane on Rifts Earth (kingsdale) in the juicer's uprising. The Dark Conversion book has quite a few conversions (don't nessessarily agree with there setup, but anywho). There is a breif mention about Nightbane Earth in the Hades Dimension book, and in the Nightlands book there is mention of both Hades and Dyvall.

That said . . .

Although I do belive it is mentioned in a book somewhere I can't prove it at the moment, Nightbane earth ,dimensionally speaking, is on the outer fringes of the megaverse. It is a very hard place to get to, thus t'were it up to me It would be easy to get to Rifts Earth from Nightbane Earth (Since Rifts Earth is practically the center of the Megaverse, right next door is Phase World ;-)) going from Rifts Earth to Nightbane Earth would be much much more difficult, nearly impossible to find really.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 5:10 pm
  

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Keeper of the Oingo wrote:
.

One of the things that irks me is the Void ships. It seems as if in the first few books, there's a big, big deal about them, along with a huge mystery, then nothing. Can anyone offer an explanation beyond whats in the core books, or point something out I might have missed? you didn't miss anything they are a big mistery so GMs can use them however they want to.

Long story short, I take it this would be way off, in terms of Palladium timeline? If you are making an alternive earth timeline yes its possible, but as someone who doesn't like the Rifts domination of PB's publications I will have to agree with Specter, don't mix them up, ever.

On the topic of crossovers, I also thought that some of the character types in Nightbane ended up as important characters in Rifts. I've heard that Rifts Europe has a Pendragon at the head of the round table...Wouldn't there be a relation to the Pendragon mentioned as the progenitor of the Nocturnes? no
I was also told something about a group that looks out for the tree of life that sounded like it was somewhere between the Guardians and the Lightbringers. I could be way off, but this is where I was taking it. There are simmulariteys between the settings, its unavoidable. But it does left to GM's cerry picking ideas from setting to setting.

I'm also curious about the Formless Ones...Are they mentioned in Palladium fantasy?No
Is there any source material I wouldn't have on the first Great Society and all that? the only sorce meatirial are in the NB books.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 12:37 am
  

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Incriptus wrote:
Although I do belive it is mentioned in a book somewhere I can't prove it at the moment


I can prove it now (Nothing beats quoting yourself)

near the end of the main book (page 203) "In the context of the rifts game, the world(s) of nightbane are a special area of the megaverse, one that is very difficult to reach normally" . . . "Due to the protective bariers erected by the night lords, only living things, organic material and matical articles can travel through those Rifts. Unliving things ... are disintergrated in transit"


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Unread postPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 11:48 am
  

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Keeper of the Oingo wrote:
One of the things that irks me is the Void ships. It seems as if in the first few books, there's a big, big deal about them, along with a huge mystery, then nothing. Can anyone offer an explanation beyond whats in the core books, or point something out I might have missed?


Void Ships (and Guardian-related stuff in general) was kept mysterious on purpose. One of the big themes with the Lightbringers is that while they seem to be all sweetness and light, nobody really knows what the power behind them is or what it wants. It adds a sinister edge to a class that would otherwise have been all sweetness and light. I mean sure, they're dedicated to battling the forces of darkness and all, but they're working for an unknown power that transforms them into supernatural warriors, reshapes their personalities, and goads them along a course of action by sending them pyschic premonitions, and not even they know what the ultimate objective is.

Sort of like Hunter: The Reckoning really. (also, this may well be the only suspiciously World Of Darknessy thing in Nightbane that Palladium actually did first :) ).

Quote:
I just finished reading a post about how Nightbane's not supposed to be crossed over with Rifts (all conversation of it being up to GMs aside, of course). I was under the impression that Nightbane fit in similarly to Heroes Unlimited, around the same time. It seems like Nightbane almost offers an interesting take on what caused Rifts Earth. Like I said, I haven't read a single book on Rifts outside of what i needed to make a character, but I've chatted with friends, and have a pretty good grasp on it (I think). In the back of Through The Glass Darkly, there's a bit about how the war between the government/Guardians is weakening the mirror wall. Combining that with the way the Nightlands reflects the "real world," I thought this would lead to a final conflict where the government would send the Nukes and the Nightlords would do their equivalent, and voila, we have Rifts. I thought that the Nightlands would have the same trouble Earth would with repelling the same invading forces. Long story short, I take it this would be way off, in terms of Palladium timeline?


Alternate Earths. Waaaay back in the good old days it was implied that Rifts is the future of the Beyond the Supernatural setting, right down to the BTS character turning up in Rifts after mysteriously disappearing in his own time. Since then there's been a fair bit of stuff in Heroes Unlimited that looks suspiciously like earlier versions of companies and technologies that we see in Rifts, and eventually they decided that the various Earths in Palladium's RPGs are parallel worlds.

Especially Nightbane Earth. It's most definitely intended to be a standalone setting, to the point where even though dimensional travel is relatively common, it's limited to a small number of destinations that are pretty much unconnected to the rest of the Palladium megaverse.

Quote:
On the topic of crossovers, I also thought that some of the character types in Nightbane ended up as important characters in Rifts. I've heard that Rifts Europe has a Pendragon at the head of the round table...Wouldn't there be a relation to the Pendragon mentioned as the progenitor of the Nocturnes? I was also told something about a group that looks out for the tree of life that sounded like it was somewhere between the Guardians and the Lightbringers. I could be way off, but this is where I was taking it.


There is a version of King Arthur in Rifts England. He's a Rifts Earth human wielding an experimental psionic-technological sword created by English researchers in the late 21st century, and the Camelot storyline there revolves around the fact that Arthur and his court are unknowingly being used as pawns by an alien intelligence. Totally unrelated to any Pendragons who might've turned up in Nightbane, especially the vampire/wampyr/whatever in the Nocturnes.

Quote:
I'm also curious about the Formless Ones...Are they mentioned in Palladium fantasy? Is there any source material I wouldn't have on the first Great Society and all that?


Nah, the Formless Ones are strictly part of the Nightbane setting's mythic history, which is unrelated to other stuff. Basically waaaaay back around ten thousand years ago, the place we know as the Nightlands today was a magical paradise where the Formless Ones and the Lost Race both had utopian civilizations. Meanwhile on Earth the first cities were founded, and eventually Moloch rose to power and led the first Nightlords on a barbaric and evil campaign of conquest, which only ended when the forces of goodness managed to drive them into the world of the Formless Ones and seal the Mirrorwall behind them. The Nightlords gradually conquered that world, wiping out both the Formless Ones and the Lost Race (hence the name "the Lost Race" :) ). Various conflicting legends claim that the Nightlords enslaved the Formless Ones to make the minion races we know today, that the Nightbane are the Formless Ones, that the Formless Ones were utterly wiped out, or that some of them survive in hiding.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 4:44 pm
  

Rallan wrote:
Keeper of the Oingo wrote:
One of the things that irks me is the Void ships. It seems as if in the first few books, there's a big, big deal about them, along with a huge mystery, then nothing. Can anyone offer an explanation beyond whats in the core books, or point something out I might have missed?


Void Ships (and Guardian-related stuff in general) was kept mysterious on purpose. One of the big themes with the Lightbringers is that while they seem to be all sweetness and light, nobody really knows what the power behind them is or what it wants. It adds a sinister edge to a class that would otherwise have been all sweetness and light. I mean sure, they're dedicated to battling the forces of darkness and all, but they're working for an unknown power that transforms them into supernatural warriors, reshapes their personalities, and goads them along a course of action by sending them pyschic premonitions, and not even they know what the ultimate objective is.

Sort of like Hunter: The Reckoning really. (also, this may well be the only suspiciously World Of Darknessy thing in Nightbane that Palladium actually did first :) ).

Quote:
I just finished reading a post about how Nightbane's not supposed to be crossed over with Rifts (all conversation of it being up to GMs aside, of course). I was under the impression that Nightbane fit in similarly to Heroes Unlimited, around the same time. It seems like Nightbane almost offers an interesting take on what caused Rifts Earth. Like I said, I haven't read a single book on Rifts outside of what i needed to make a character, but I've chatted with friends, and have a pretty good grasp on it (I think). In the back of Through The Glass Darkly, there's a bit about how the war between the government/Guardians is weakening the mirror wall. Combining that with the way the Nightlands reflects the "real world," I thought this would lead to a final conflict where the government would send the Nukes and the Nightlords would do their equivalent, and voila, we have Rifts. I thought that the Nightlands would have the same trouble Earth would with repelling the same invading forces. Long story short, I take it this would be way off, in terms of Palladium timeline?


Alternate Earths. Waaaay back in the good old days it was implied that Rifts is the future of the Beyond the Supernatural setting, right down to the BTS character turning up in Rifts after mysteriously disappearing in his own time. Since then there's been a fair bit of stuff in Heroes Unlimited that looks suspiciously like earlier versions of companies and technologies that we see in Rifts, and eventually they decided that the various Earths in Palladium's RPGs are parallel worlds.

Especially Nightbane Earth. It's most definitely intended to be a standalone setting, to the point where even though dimensional travel is relatively common, it's limited to a small number of destinations that are pretty much unconnected to the rest of the Palladium megaverse.

Quote:
On the topic of crossovers, I also thought that some of the character types in Nightbane ended up as important characters in Rifts. I've heard that Rifts Europe has a Pendragon at the head of the round table...Wouldn't there be a relation to the Pendragon mentioned as the progenitor of the Nocturnes? I was also told something about a group that looks out for the tree of life that sounded like it was somewhere between the Guardians and the Lightbringers. I could be way off, but this is where I was taking it.


There is a version of King Arthur in Rifts England. He's a Rifts Earth human wielding an experimental psionic-technological sword created by English researchers in the late 21st century, and the Camelot storyline there revolves around the fact that Arthur and his court are unknowingly being used as pawns by an alien intelligence. Totally unrelated to any Pendragons who might've turned up in Nightbane, especially the vampire/wampyr/whatever in the Nocturnes.

Quote:
I'm also curious about the Formless Ones...Are they mentioned in Palladium fantasy? Is there any source material I wouldn't have on the first Great Society and all that?


Nah, the Formless Ones are strictly part of the Nightbane setting's mythic history, which is unrelated to other stuff. Basically waaaaay back around ten thousand years ago, the place we know as the Nightlands today was a magical paradise where the Formless Ones and the Lost Race both had utopian civilizations. Meanwhile on Earth the first cities were founded, and eventually Moloch rose to power and led the first Nightlords on a barbaric and evil campaign of conquest, which only ended when the forces of goodness managed to drive them into the world of the Formless Ones and seal the Mirrorwall behind them. The Nightlords gradually conquered that world, wiping out both the Formless Ones and the Lost Race (hence the name "the Lost Race" :) ). Various conflicting legends claim that the Nightlords enslaved the Formless Ones to make the minion races we know today, that the Nightbane are the Formless Ones, that the Formless Ones were utterly wiped out, or that some of them survive in hiding.



Gonna interject here that the Lost race was wiped out LONG before the Nighttlords came by The Dark, the formless ones were cowardly and only untervened to help the Lost Race at the last moment, too late to save them but they handily defeated The Dark. Unknown amount of time later the Nightlords arrive and the formless ones did not immedeately attack them... They again waited too long because even though they were fearsomely powerful they were a very cowardly lot and enough Nightlords amased power and enslaved and wiped out the Formless ones (all while secretly being controled or empowered by The Dark). What happened then is up to the GM/players.


The guardians and the light etc, are extremely suspicious entities. Both the Dark and the Light represent unchanging entities which are both "bad" (because it is not "good" to not change). Where as the formless ones represent Infinte change and ever changingness, formless does not mean no form, but less a form(one who's form is never static but always changing) in archaic definitions, so you could infer they assumed whatever form was needed for a situation and changed constantly and everly.

And that's the most known about them.

Formless Ones
-Represent the force of Change
-Cowards
-Barers of Great Guilt over the consequences of their cowardice
-Very Powerful in a sense (change to match your situation)
-Wiped from existence in the sense of beings as the Formless Ones
-Their descendants may still live, and naturally the force of nature they represented currently still lives on so their will continues on in a way.


As for night bane
-it is a shades of grey world, Black AND White do exist but they are both enemies of change.
-it's about change, cowardice, and courage.Do I risk revealing myself to intervene? If I do will I put myself at risk of being wiped out too? Etc


Last edited by Niji on Wed Jun 04, 2014 3:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:24 pm
  

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Niji... you do realize that this thread has been inactive for nearly 7 years, right?

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 3:28 am
  

Nope, if it ain't locked and it's the first thread in my search criteria it's resurrection bait lol! No one made correction to some of the misinformation so don't want new players(or old ones like me looking for more detailed info) misunderstand in and getting turned away/rude awakening lol


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 8:29 pm
  

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So you don't want people misunderstanding things or being given misinformation... yet you called the Formless One's cowards for not getting involved in a fight that wasn't theirs to begin with.

They only got involved with the war between the Lost Race and the Dark when it became clear to them that the Dark wasn't going to stop with the destruction of the Lost Race. This is not unlike what happened with the United States at the onset of WW2... they were still recovering from the Great Depression and the war was focused mostly in Europe (with some minor skirmishes in Africa and Asia). Most Americans didn't want to be dragged into another war and so felt that if they left things alone, they too would be left alone. Does this make the Americans any more cowardly than the Formless Ones? The Americans only realized how serious the situation was after the attack on Pearl Harbor, when they realized that the Axis Powers were not going to leave them alone. Even so, by the time the Americans joined the fight, many Jews and other oppressed ethnic groups had already been slaughtered... not unlike how the Formless Ones were too late to save the Lost race.

If you want to clear up old information on a forgotten subject... great... but adding your own opinion as "fact" is just as much misinformation as what you are trying to clear up.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 9:45 pm
  

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Isnt ALL of this rumor, hearsay, and second hand unofficial gossip.
AFAIK there has NEVER been any canon on officially on most of these topics. If there has been any thing official about the identities of the Lost Race or the Formless Ones, or what/when/if the war against the Dark was I would love to read it.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 12:49 am
  

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Niji wrote:
the Lost race was wiped out LONG before the Nighttlords came by The Dark
Or so we think... aren't they merely THOUGHT to have been wiped out? What's the clearest statement we got?

Niji wrote:
the formless ones were cowardly and only untervened to help the Lost Race at the last moment, too late to save them but they handily defeated The Dark.
Sounds cool where's this mentioned? I forget a lot of locations and tidbits.

Razorwing wrote:
thread has been inactive for nearly 7 years
Never too late to interject or bump.

eliakon wrote:
Isnt ALL of this rumor, hearsay, and second hand unofficial gossip.
That depends on the context of how the info's written in the book.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 8:35 pm
  

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Most of the information on the Lost Race comes from a few passages in Nightlands and in a brief description of the Atlantis Society in the Survival Guide.

In both books, the Lost Race is said to have come to the Nightlands long before the Nightlords but left the majority of the world/realm/dimension to the native inhabitants at the time... the Formless Ones. In the Survival Guide, it suggests that the Lost race thrived in the Nightlands for some time, but a brief skirmish with demons and a protracted war with vampires eventually wore them down to the point that when the Nightlords made their move to conquer the Nightlands, they were unable to withstand the attack. The Survival Guide also states that the Lost Race sent emissaries to enlist the aid of the Formless Ones, but none ever returned (and it isn't known if they even reached the Formless Ones. One of the last accounts translated by the Atlantis Society (according to the Survival Guide) is that many tried to flee to outposts in other dimensions (scattered across the heavens) while a group made a last stand at a city in the north... meanwhile the city the Atlantis Society is currently excavating was buried to keep it out of the hands of the Nightlords.

The only problem with the Survival Guide account of the Atlantis Society is that it states the Atlantis Society has gone public with their information... which is directly contradicted by the description of the Society in Nightlands... where they have intentionally kept a lid on what they discovered and their own existence from everyone... including the Nightlords.

That aside, I hypothesize that events played out something like this: the Nightlords initially failed in their bid to conquer the Earth by moving too quickly, thus were forced to retreat and regroup... in a close dimension known as the Nightlands. Their only opposition was the Lost Race and the mysterious Formless Ones who called the dimension home. Learning from their mistake, they built up a vast army while the Lost Race was locked in a war with the Vampires. Once they were ready, they attacked the Lost Race on multiple fronts with overwhelming numbers... forcing the Lost Race to abandon most of their holdings... a loss they would never recover from. Emissaries were sent to enlist aid from the Formless Ones... only for them to be intercepted by the Nightlords' armies. Eventually the Lost Race made their last stand... and this is when the Formless Ones join the fight. Knowing that they likely wouldn't survive, the Lost Race decides to make their sacrifice a meaningful one... to turn the Nightlands into the Nightlords' prison rather than let it remain a potential haven for these inhuman monsters. With the help of the Formless Ones, the Lost Race move the Nightlands out of sync with the other dimensions... a feat of dimensional magic that won't be repeated until the events of Dark Day (which brings the Nightlands back in sync with Earth). In the end, the Lost Race is no more (though there might be survivors elsewhere in the Megaverse), the Nightlords are trapped in the Nightlands for the next few millennia... and the Formless Ones are forever changed by witnessing these events. Of course... this is just my theory which tries to connect all the loose threads of information together into something that could be plausible.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 2:04 am
  

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[quote=Niji]
The guardians and the light etc, are extremely suspicious entities. Both the Dark and the Light represent....[/quote]
Did the Survivors Guide make that stupid bit of fanwank fact?
Cuz last time I checked," the Light" was a stupid bit off an conjecture that I could ignore....

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 5:45 pm
  

The Nightlands book clearly states "guilt" over not helping the Lost Race in time and cowardice being the reason they didn't immedeately stop the Nightlords on arrival in the nightlands(they later amased to much power, thanks to the dark's help, to stop them they were at least wiped out(word of god states the nightbane are the vengeful spirits of dead formless ones), though it's also insinuated their formless nature was given specific form as some were enslaved by the nightlords(no word of god elaboration there)).


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Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:40 pm
  

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Okay? What is this "word of God" you are referring to? If you are referring to C.J. Carella's original ideas for the Nightbane... well... he's not the "word of God" for the setting anymore. While he may have intended for this to be the ultimate origin of the Nightbane (being the vengeful spirits of dead Formless Ones), those currently in charge of the setting have apparently turned away from this idea... preferring to leave their origins a mystery that will probably never be solved.

As for the "Guilt" you claim is clearly stated in Nightlands... well, it is from a fragment of a text that was roughly tanslated... as in the words used were the closest match the English language has to the actual meaning of the word in the original language it is written in. That hardly constitutes a "clear" statement. It further admits that the fragment the excerpt is from no longer appears in current translations of the text... making the sole copy of this translation circumspect at best. In other words... what you claim as irrefutable proof for us is, in the setting, seen as a highly questionable source.

Additionally, no where does it say that they didn't act because of cowardice... it just says they came in only towards the end when it was too late to save the Lost Race. This by no means suggests the Formless Ones were cowards. In fact, it makes some sense when combined with information from the Survival Guide... namely that the emissaries sent to enlist aid from the Formless Ones never returned... suggesting they never delivered their request for help until near the end. Guilt over the loss of the Lost Race does not mean they were cowards... it just means that they are sorry that they couldn't prevent that event (there is no way of knowing if they could have saved the Lost Race if they had acted sooner).

Suffice it to say, Niji, the wild conclusions you have jumped to are not supported by what little information we are given on the subject.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 9:31 pm
  

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Palladin

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Keeper of the Oingo wrote:
I've heard that Rifts Europe has a Pendragon at the head of the round table...
Not sure where this comes from, there's a pseudo-Arthur given Caliber-X ruling England but that's about it.

Incriptus wrote:
near the end of the main book (page 203) "In the context of the rifts game, the world(s) of nightbane are a special area of the megaverse, one that is very difficult to reach normally" . . . "Due to the protective bariers erected by the night lords, only living things, organic material and matical articles can travel through those Rifts. Unliving things ... are disintergrated in transit"


Shoot, just became apparent to me... doesn't that mean a visit to Nightbane would cure people of the Splicers infection and allow them to use tech so long as they don't return to their homeworld to get re-infected?

I think it would also permanently de-power those tech-expert guys in Splicers unless they could somehow get good nanobots again.
Razorwing wrote:
What is this "word of God" you are referring to? If you are referring to C.J. Carella's original ideas for the Nightbane... well... he's not the "word of God" for the setting anymore.

Says who? It is completely within the rights of the fanbase to rank a game's creator more highly than the game's owner in terms of canonical genuineness.

If later books are going to retcon the original works, they are a new game. If Palladium wants to make "Palladium's Survival Nightbane" or "Dark Conversions Darkbane" then that's all fine an dandy, but buying the book lets us choose who our settings-god is.

Razorwing wrote:
While he may have intended for this to be the ultimate origin of the Nightbane (being the vengeful spirits of dead Formless Ones), those currently in charge of the setting have apparently turned away from this idea... preferring to leave their origins a mystery that will probably never be solved.
This doesn't really seem to have turned away, just a different emphasis on differing groups' hints.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 12:08 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Tor wrote:
Razorwing wrote:
What is this "word of God" you are referring to? If you are referring to C.J. Carella's original ideas for the Nightbane... well... he's not the "word of God" for the setting anymore.

Says who? It is completely within the rights of the fanbase to rank a game's creator more highly than the game's owner in terms of canonical genuineness.

If later books are going to retcon the original works, they are a new game. If Palladium wants to make "Palladium's Survival Nightbane" or "Dark Conversions Darkbane" then that's all fine an dandy, but buying the book lets us choose who our settings-god is.

Uhhh, do you know what the term Word of God as applied to a IP means?
It means 'this is the official, last word on the subject' So yes, Palladium gets to set the Word of God for Canon. You can pick what you want for your Fanon of course, but Canon is set by the IP holder, not the fans.
Tor wrote:
Razorwing wrote:
While he may have intended for this to be the ultimate origin of the Nightbane (being the vengeful spirits of dead Formless Ones), those currently in charge of the setting have apparently turned away from this idea... preferring to leave their origins a mystery that will probably never be solved.
This doesn't really seem to have turned away, just a different emphasis on differing groups' hints.

Basically what has happened is each other is using their pet ideas as the One True Way, and not bothering to even see if their new ideas are compatible with the old stuff. This is compounded by having almost all of the background information be in game materials where its all hearsay. Instead of saying "This is the history of X" we get "There is a legend/old story/ancient text/what ever that says that...." So while we have several possible histories and origins we don't have any official true ones.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 2:07 pm
  

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Tor wrote:
Razorwing wrote:
What is this "word of God" you are referring to? If you are referring to C.J. Carella's original ideas for the Nightbane... well... he's not the "word of God" for the setting anymore.

Says who? It is completely within the rights of the fanbase to rank a game's creator more highly than the game's owner in terms of canonical genuineness.

If later books are going to retcon the original works, they are a new game. If Palladium wants to make "Palladium's Survival Nightbane" or "Dark Conversions Darkbane" then that's all fine an dandy, but buying the book lets us choose who our settings-god is.

Razorwing wrote:
While he may have intended for this to be the ultimate origin of the Nightbane (being the vengeful spirits of dead Formless Ones), those currently in charge of the setting have apparently turned away from this idea... preferring to leave their origins a mystery that will probably never be solved.
This doesn't really seem to have turned away, just a different emphasis on differing groups' hints.


C.J. never fully developed that concept in the books, either. That was merely an idea that he related to a fan at a convention. Moreso than any other Palladium campaign world, Nightbane is (or was, at least) deliberately filled with contradictions and ambiguity, so that GMs and players can feel free to develop their own vision for the setting. It does a disservice to the game to assert any truth as absolute.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 9:43 pm
  

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eliakon wrote:
do you know what the term Word of God as applied to a IP means?
It can mean a variety of things, see http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WordOfGod

Given that it is slang, there is hardly any static definition of it meaning 1 particular thing.

eliakon wrote:
It means 'this is the official, last word on the subject' So yes, Palladium gets to set the Word of God for Canon. You can pick what you want for your Fanon of course, but Canon is set by the IP holder, not the fans.


There are multiple levels of canon. Canon holds discrete existences at distinct points in time. "Barbara Gordon cannot walk" is both canon and non-canon depending on what book you are reading, for example. I suppose we could break it down into "original canon" vs "recent canon" to distinguish the difference though.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 7:45 pm
  

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Hero

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I will give Niji credit on one thing... the passage in Nightlands does say that the Formless Ones did have a level of guilt for not saving the Lost Race.

It does not however state that the Formless Ones didn't intervene until the end because of cowardice. All it states was that it wasn't until the final battle that the Formless Ones join to tip the scales and defeat the Dark even though it was too late to save the Lost Race.

The only place it mentions cowardice in reference to the Formless Ones was in regards to the coming of the Ba'al... which may have been before or after the fall of the Lost Race (from the book, it suggests it happened afterwards).

Furthermore, the writer of the book these passages are taken from (the book referenced in Nightlands that is) may also have a certain amount of bias... and presenting that opinion as fact. Historic objectivity... writing of past events without bias... is a fairly recent concept that presents the facts as they are without drawing conclusions. Most historical books before the recent present (within the last 50 years) almost always have some sort of bias to them. For example, when my grandmother and mother went to school, they were taught that some of the people we now see as pioneers for equal rights as little more than traitors to their country. The same could be said of the writer of that book in Nightlands. He may see the actions of the Formless Ones as being cowardly and guilt inspired when the truth is a lot more complicated than that.

In the end, the truth is likely never to be known for certain. The only beings that could possibly prove or disprove the validity of the book have chosen not to do so... and are not likely to discuss their reasons for doing so with anyone. Others have a vested interest in maintaining any bias that may be present in what little we currently do know (and even that is suspect at best). As has been stated before... the entire setting presents may contradictory possibilities that any one of which may be right... to claim that this "one" is all the proof we need and that all others must therefore be false is more than a little presumptuous... especially when all are presented with equal levels of doubt.

Remember, the original manuscript where those passages were taken from has since disappeared and does not appear in any other copy or translation of the text in question... thus making its claims circumspect at best (and intentionally misleading at worst).

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Unread postPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 6:17 pm
  

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Keeper of the Oingo wrote:
Hi all! I'm new to the forum, first time poster. What led me here (to Palladium in general) is a growing obsession with Nightbane. I've played a few other Pallium games with friends, but Nightbane was gathering dust and out of curiosity I started flipping through it, and promptly bought every world book (including Shadows of Light...Pricey), and several rifters (to make a huge Morphus chart). So, yes, obsession is there, and I have a few things I'm wondering if anyone has answers to.


Ask and ye shall receive.. Even though it's taking like 5+ years to reply. LOL

Quote:
One of the things that irks me is the Void ships. It seems as if in the first few books, there's a big, big deal about them, along with a huge mystery, then nothing. Can anyone offer an explanation beyond whats in the core books, or point something out I might have missed?


That's pretty much it in the books on Void Ships. They may have been mistaken over the centuries for UFOs, but the most important thing is that they let you travel to anywhere in the megaverse.. Well provided you know the location. I can immagine there is a possibility of going at it randomly.

Quote:
I just finished reading a post about how Nightbane's not supposed to be crossed over with Rifts (all conversation of it being up to GMs aside, of course). I was under the impression that Nightbane fit in similarly to Heroes Unlimited, around the same time.


Similar time frames. Think parallel dimensions. Oh and I don't recommend it. The whole crowd that thinks Nightbane is just dark superheroes doesnt really get what is going on with it. That includes Kev S.

Quote:
. It seems like Nightbane almost offers an interesting take on what caused Rifts Earth. Like I said, I haven't read a single book on Rifts outside of what i needed to make a character, but I've chatted with friends, and have a pretty good grasp on it (I think). In the back of Through The Glass Darkly, there's a bit about how the war between the government/Guardians is weakening the mirror wall. Combining that with the way the Nightlands reflects the "real world," I thought this would lead to a final conflict where the government would send the Nukes and the Nightlords would do their equivalent, and voila, we have Rifts. I thought that the Nightlands would have the same trouble Earth would with repelling the same invading forces. Long story short, I take it this would be way off, in terms of Palladium timeline?


Again totally separate time lines/dimensions. But not a bad premise for a campaign if you opt to play it that way. Whatever is fun for you.

The mirrorwall was weakened by the Nightlords, who have also replaced key Government officials with doplegangers and are taking a big brother is watching approach to the world. They still have to keep in the shadows and can't fully go all out on humanity but the game they are into is control and not conquest like vampires.

Quote:
On the topic of crossovers, I also thought that some of the character types in Nightbane ended up as important characters in Rifts. I've heard that Rifts Europe has a Pendragon at the head of the round table...Wouldn't there be a relation to the Pendragon mentioned as the progenitor of the Nocturnes? I was also told something about a group that looks out for the tree of life that sounded like it was somewhere between the Guardians and the Lightbringers. I could be way off, but this is where I was taking it.


The Pendragon in Rifts Engaland is an alien intelligence if memory serves me correctly.The group that looks out for the tree of life would be the Millenium Druids. The Nightlords would absolutely HATE a millenium tree and do all they could to destroy it.

Quote:
I'm also curious about the Formless Ones...Are they mentioned in Palladium fantasy? Is there any source material I wouldn't have on the first Great Society and all that?

I figured I should come out swinging for my first post. Thanks to anyone who reads this. :)


The Formless Ones were the original dwellers in the Nightlands. Nightbane are manifestations of them in this realm. Essentially they rematerialize in this world as Nightbane to wage a war on the Nightlords. The downside is that they don't recall anything about being a formless one and thus you have Nightbane factions that take different sides.

The most recent book detracts from this and really trys to turn the Nightbane into essentially X-Men style mutants which IMHO is a completely crap way of running the game. It's 100% better the way CJ intended it.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 6:36 pm
  

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If its an RPG or has minis, Its here somewhere.
We managed to combine Nightbane with Heroes in our game.
I agree though, I like the original intent for them. So I tried to
keep the unique feel of Nightbane for those characters.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 9:07 pm
  

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Regarding the Atlantis Society:

The passages about them going public don't seem to be in the final manuscript that I have, though I seem to recall having written something like them early in the development phase. Not sure if they snuck in from a previous version, if the were Kev's additions, or what.

That said, they should be considered an update to the info on the Atlantis Society. Someone mentioned in another thread that the timeline should move forward. At least in some limited ways, I agree. So there are bits like this in the new material that show what is going on with certain Factions, plots, etc. (Another example: Some of you noted that Cernobyl is stated to be in Russia rather than Ukraine. This was not a typo.)

At the same time, just because some of the archaeological finds have been made public by a handful of members doesn't mean that the entire society has stepped into the spotlight. The organization itself and the source of the artifacts should still be a secret, even if some of what they've found is showcased to draw funding or aggrandize certain members.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 2:01 am
  

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URLeader Hobbes wrote:
The Formless Ones were the original dwellers in the Nightlands. Nightbane are manifestations of them in this realm. Essentially they rematerialize in this world as Nightbane to wage a war on the Nightlords. The downside is that they don't recall anything about being a formless one and thus you have Nightbane factions that take different sides.

The most recent book detracts from this and really trys to turn the Nightbane into essentially X-Men style mutants which IMHO is a completely crap way of running the game. It's 100% better the way CJ intended it.


again, basically everything we have on the origin of the nightbane, the formless ones, the lost race, the origin of the ba'al, etc, is presented as speculation based on what extremely ancient, mostly incomplete, and frequently vague texts on the matter, some of which may or may not have been placed to deliberately mislead people.

essentially everyone who should know or might know more on the subject are specifically stated to be extremely tight-lipped on the subject, at best giving hints that they might know more.

the closest thing we have to solid information is that occasionally, a specific theory on something is explicitly called out as being more suspect than other theories... so, in other words, there are a few theories that we know are *probably* a load of crap.

we can all speculate all we want on it. but for many of the questions you or i may have about the ancient history of the setting, the only official answer is that there is no one official answer, just speculation based on scraps of information that may or may not be accurate, and may or may not even be referring to the subject.

or, in other words, even more so than usual, the usual answer from kevin in terms of what is official applies: the official answer for your games is whatever your GM says it is. the official answer (inasmuch as they will give you any answer at all) from palladium books is to ask your GM what is official for your game, or if you are the GM, to decide what, if anything, will be official for your games.

which, frankly, is actually a strong point for the setting. everything is *supposed* to be confusing and unknown. your characters don't know the answers to the questions you're asking. heck, many characters won't even know enough to ask the questions you're trying to get answers to. so, if you don't know the answers, well... great. now you'll be able to roleplay someone who only has vague speculation based on little to no information to go on, just like you should be roleplaying in the first place (at least, unless/until your group manages to find out more during your time playing the game, in which case you might have more answers for what is official in your group).


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Unread postPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 12:26 am
  

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I clearly need to brush up on my lore, I had assumed Formless Ones and Lost Race to refer to the same thing, getting the impression they're different now.

URLeader Hobbes wrote:
The Pendragon in Rifts Engaland is an alien intelligence if memory serves me correctly.
No that's Merlin/Myrrlin. Rifts has no Pendragon. Myrrlin does have a pseudo-Arthur he gave a neat sword to though. I think 'Mutants in Avalon' may have a swan or something called Arthur too.

URLeader Hobbes wrote:
Nightlords would absolutely HATE a millenium tree and do all they could to destroy it.
Possibly exception being that Mindwerks evil tree.

URLeader Hobbes wrote:
The Formless Ones were the original dwellers in the Nightlands. Nightbane are manifestations of them in this realm. Essentially they rematerialize in this world as Nightbane to wage a war on the Nightlords. The downside is that they don't recall anything about being a formless one and thus you have Nightbane factions that take different sides.

I always figured the Reshapers to be the Formeless Ones who didn't become Bane-ified.

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