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Unread postPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 5:20 am
  

D-Bee

Joined: Wed Sep 18, 2013 7:15 am
Posts: 18
Ok ok ok ok ...So..looking at the very first image of night lands baddies, you see the doppelganger. In the pic, you see it reaching though a mirror to grab and unsuspecting person (his copy) and try drag him though. I LOVE the idea of this.. I also love the idea of hounds etc going though the mirror wall on command etc... I looked into it though,,,and I cant find ANYTHING that lets ANY MINION pass though a mirror into our world!!

So apart from a night lord using his power to breach the mirror wall.. how does this happen? It even says that before dark day, only the night lords minions could breach the mirror wall.. hooooow?!?! I mean the campaign im about to run starts out in a semi-high rise apartment block..with doppelgangers and hounds appearing on different floors in different rooms.. then some hollow Namitar/Hollow men etc..

As the GM... do I just.. let them do it? Do I take it for granted that they can because it seems to fit? Help

:cry: :cry: :-( :? :?


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Unread postPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:56 pm
  

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Monk

Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2003 7:22 pm
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Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
It's a means of control. The Minions are not given the power to travel on their own so they must depend on their Nightlord Master, or their avatars.

It's not an oversight, it was deliberate. Most minions depend on the nightlord sending their minions through, so they require the services of a Night Preist or an Avatar to send more through. This is why running and hiding can work as an escape means. Most reinforcements have to come from minions already present in on earth.

The scene you are talking about where they already know where the players are and are sending through reinforcements would have to mean there's an Avatar present who's orchastrating the trap.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:50 pm
  

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Knight

Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:13 pm
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Going just by the core book, the illustrations the top of page 159 and bottom of 160 by page 175's "5. Breach the Mirrorwall" power of Nightlords (and thus their Avatars) as Nekira highlights. A mere 5 PPE and 1 minute. Much more efficient than Nightbane since I don't know if it was that easy prior to Dark Day though (5 PPE would only let a bane transport a 10 pound person)

Page 131's "Call Nightlands Denizen" could be another explanation. Perhaps the woman and man we see in the pictures are amateur sorcerers or mystics experimenting with the 3rd level ritual? I think "calling the nearest Nightland denizen in the area" more often than not would be your own Doppleganger if you did it at home, assuming Dopplegangers live roughly in equivalently-located homes.

It could potentially be an oversight though. The pics might've been commissioned for an early draft of Nightspawn with different text than we eventually saw. There's already a hint of that on "Crossing Over" on page 157:
    The Nightlords and a few of their minions (especially the Hounds) can also cross over through mirrors.

Hounds (like Dopplegangers) and other Nightlord minions also lack an inherent ability to Mirrorwalk, but this implies otherwise.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 10:04 pm
  

D-Bee

Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:54 pm
Posts: 7
Although those pics are VERY cool looking, I did read in another site for Nightbane Q&A that it was just that. A cool pic. Dopplegangers and others can not Mirror Walk on their own. A Nightlord (or Avatar) has to send it thru or the other answer given was that it was a magic portal opened.
Yeah, I read and reread that book looking for it after seeing those pics as well...


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Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:45 pm
  

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Invisible Pink Unicorn

Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 7:12 am
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Location: Eden Time:Precisely
In another thread in this forum I read that Rifter 48, I think, had errata that states that Hunters, Hounds and Hound Masters can all travel through the mirrorwall like the Nightbane.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:32 am
  

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Knight

Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:13 pm
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In the non-Carella era of Survival Guide where humans can spontaneously be Nightbane, it's unsurprising.

There is some precedent since the main book mentioned it even though it wasn't included under stats... but I don't know if I like them being EQUALLY as good as Nightbane at it...

Why not ALMOST as good, like a Shadow Warlock, where it costs them more PPE? It's not like Hounds have any other use for their PPE


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Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 7:55 pm
  

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Monk

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Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
I decided to double check. Rifter 48 does indeed say that Hounds and other teirs of hounds have the Mirror Walk ability like Nightbane. but it also says Dopplegangers do not and need some outside ability to mirror walk.

This gives a bit more reason for Cultists and Night Preists to be a thing. Use the preists to summon dopplegangers and such where required.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 8:30 am
  

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Knight

Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:13 pm
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Nekira Sudacne wrote:
I decided to double check. Rifter 48 does indeed say that Hounds and other teirs of hounds have the Mirror Walk ability like Nightbane.

There were three precedents for this from Carella's books which I'm aware of:

Main book 157 "The Nightlords and a few of their minions (especially the Hounds) can also cross over through mirrors."

Nightlands 12 "Another strange phenomenon linked to the Nightlands is the so-called Mirror Walk: the ability that Nightbanes, Hounds and a few other creatures have to cross to and from Earth by using a mirror, no matter how small the "portal." Apparently the Nightbanes and a few other supernatural creatures have a powerful link with the Nightlands which allows them to breach the magical barrier"

Nightlands 55 "As the last hound tried to flee to the Nightlands through a mirror, Velara grappled with it. To her surprise, she was pulled into the Nightlands along with the Hound"

None of these required Hounds to be just as proficient at Mirror-Walking as Nightbane though, so I don't like Rifter 48 giving them identical stats. Nightbane seem more inherently linked and native to the Nightlands so I think it would make sense for them to be better at it.

Page 87 of main book requires a Nightbane to use 2 PPE to do it, plus other people at 1 per 2 pounds.
Page 113 of Nightlands required a Shadow Warlock to use 6 PPE to do it. Presumably also costing extra if bringing passengers, though this isn't mentioned. If it was 6 period no matter what... :twisted:

Page 162 of main book gives hounds 10-60 PPE, meaning after paying a cost to transport themself, you're either looking at 8-58 or 4-54 remaining PPE, for a total of 16-116 or 8-108 extra pounds. Not a huge difference.

Ignoring extra passengers: if Hounds are just as good as Nightbane, then even the weakest of them could Mirror Walk back and forth 5 times using their 10 PPE. If they were merely as good as Shadow Warlocks, then using 6/10 PPE brings them down to 4 PPE and the 1/6 of Hounds with the lowest amount of PPE could only make a single hop before needing to rest an hour to recover 5 PPE (Between the Shadows page 126)

While MB157/NL12/NL55 all say "Hounds", it's worth nothing that MB162 describes Hound Masters are "Hounds graced with higher intelligence". We're never explicitly told that ALL of the Hounds have the ability to Mirror Walk, so perhaps it is just a minority of them who can do so, and that minority is the Hound Masters.

Pre-R48 Carellaverse statements about mirror walking are flexible enough for us to limit it to just Hound Masters, with other means (like Ritual: Call Nightlands Denizen, a 3rd level spell which even a 1st level Priest of Night could start with, since they select 8 from 1-4) required to bring non-Master Hounds to Earth.

I like the idea of this because it would allow Hound Masters to beat escapes that normal Hounds wouldn't, or if you fled from a group of Hounds via Mirrowalking, if only the Hound Master could pursue you to the other side, you could beat it in a 1 on 1 duel.

MB157, since it specifies "The Nightlords" also being able to "cross over through mirrors", and they also have no listed ability to mirror walk, I wonder if it might be referring to one of the following ways we know they can get over through magic:
*pg 141 level 8 Nightland Portal (Ritual)
*pg 147 level 11 Summon Nightlord Avatar
*pg 148 level 13 Summon Nightlord
*pg 150 level 15 Dimensional Portal

None of these spells refer to requiring a mirror like the level 3 "Ritual: Call Nightlands Denizen" on page 131 though...

Interestingly, while this specifies "The creature may or may not answer the call, or use the breach in the Mirrorwall to cross over" the similarly-named "Ritual: Call Nightlord" 6th level spell on 137 makes no mention of the Nightlord being able to slip through the Mirrorwall, despite page 157 referencing Nightlords and Hounds as if equivalent in capability.

Also interesting is that Call Nightlands Denizen doesn't include Nightbane/Nightlords, but aside from Hounds/Hunters also includes Ashmedai, Nemtar and Dopplegangers. All 5 of the creatures that CND allows to slip through I believe are supernatural, right?

The problem I see here is: Call Nightlands Denizen requires a mirror to use. If all Hounds inherently had the ability to Mirror Walk, why would they need to "use the breach" created by CND to pass over? Even without the spell creating a breach they should be able to. CND talks about Hounds as if they were on par with Ashmedai and Nemtar in terms of accessibility, and I don't see any arguments that those 2 creatures can Mirror Walk.


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