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Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 8:13 pm
  

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What the heck is with this writeup saying that Nightbane are normal humans born of normal human parents? I thought that the original Carella series was explicit about Spawn/Bane being orphans with unclear parentage who just show up and get adopted and stuff.

Makes me wonder... anyone actually pick up any recent reprints of the main Nightbane book and notice if any shadow retconning is being done to this text to correspond with the rewrite of the RCC in Dark Conversions and Survival Guide?

Also does not calling Survival Guide "World Book 5" essentially mean that we'll never get any more 'world books' because they don't want to make another world book 4 to confuse with Shadows of Light, yet don't want to number it WB5 since that acknowledges a 4?

I kind of wondered if that was part of why Manhunters was an un-numbered dimension book (I think everyone tends to call it DB0 even though it came out after Wormwood) although it doesn't really explain why the "Rifts Dimension Book" HotM didn't get a number. I get if DB9 is being reserved for UWW but they shoulda called it DB15 or something, there's still time.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:28 pm
  

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Tor wrote:
What the heck is with this writeup saying that Nightbane are normal humans born of normal human parents? I thought that the original Carella series was explicit about Spawn/Bane being orphans with unclear parentage who just show up and get adopted and stuff.


Kevin made the explicit decision to retcon Nightbane into being born of normal humans. You are correct on the origional nightbane in Carella's veiw, but Carella is long gone from the company. NSB was intended to change what nightbane cannonically are.

and no, it's not "There were nightbane in Carella's version, but now some are humans too". The authors have publically stated "It is retconned that they were always this"

Quote:
Makes me wonder... anyone actually pick up any recent reprints of the main Nightbane book and notice if any shadow retconning is being done to this text to correspond with the rewrite of the RCC in Dark Conversions and Survival Guide?


Of course not. Palladium rarely does that sort of thing.

Quote:
Also does not calling Survival Guide "World Book 5" essentially mean that we'll never get any more 'world books' because they don't want to make another world book 4 to confuse with Shadows of Light, yet don't want to number it WB5 since that acknowledges a 4?


No, they have discussed future world books. NSG is not a world book because, ah, it's not a world book. world books cover specific regions/parts of the setting, NSG was a broad look at the setting as a whole, and thus, wasn't called a world book because it's not a world book. if anything, it's more of a supplementary book to the core.


Quote:
I kind of wondered if that was part of why Manhunters was an un-numbered dimension book (I think everyone tends to call it DB0 even though it came out after Wormwood) although it doesn't really explain why the "Rifts Dimension Book" HotM didn't get a number. I get if DB9 is being reserved for UWW but they shoulda called it DB15 or something, there's still time.


This is the wrong forum for this question, but the short answer is, no one knows.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 10:38 pm
  

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Nightbane already have "the Becoming".

I am hereby instating another stage called "the Denial". Which will obviously never be printed, but makes total sense...

The Nightspawn identify with the humanity they were raised by. They want to believe they are human, just changed humans. They were not spawned from this Nightlands... no, of course not. That would make them... aliens or something! No... they are heroes. Natives of Earth. The Nightlands invaded Earth... and invaded them. They reacted as antibodies... BANES of the Darkness.

No, the darkness never spawned them... they became it's bane.

THE DENIAL.

Of course "The Watcher" may tell us of a third stage called 'The Awakening' or 'The Acceptance' relating to making peace with what you really are and where you come from....

So if they make future world books do you think they'll start with 5?

One other way of avoidance might be to start making nightbane 'dimension books' like Rifts has. Heck, you could argue the WBs so far basically ARE dimension books (Astral/Dream; Nightlands; Mirror Wall; Void-Tophet)

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Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:45 pm
  

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i am working on a setting where the banes have no delusion they are human and believe they were spawned in hell since most banes were born in an apocalyptic nightlands. (As such, they call themselves the Hellborn)

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Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 6:10 pm
  

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Let's not try to **** off McFarlane THAT much. Even though it's feasible people could perceive Nightlands as a hell (it resembles some of the PF gods' domains more than it does Hades though) if we need to affix 'born' or 'spawn' to a realm, we should at least pick an alternate name than 'hell' to go with.

I'm thinking "Voispawn", personally. Nightlands is totally like Vald-Tegor's realm. Possibly also Tolmet's.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 9:25 pm
  

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hellborn is not a trademarkable since it's actually a proper noun. That's why I used it. it has nothing to do with Mcfarlane either and it's more akin to hellraiser/cenobyte canon being borrowed upon.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 7:44 pm
  

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Ah, it's a surname, cool. Good for fancruft though I doubt we'd see a term popularized in print if Palladium couldn't copyright it and put it on a book cover. Albeit "Barbies" and "Kens" got used, so maybe within a book...

McFarlane would still make a go for it though, it's how he is.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:11 pm
  

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Are the changes really that bad? What difference does it really make if they are called Nightbane or Nightspawn? What does it matter if they were born of human parents or just appeared out of thin air as an infant?

Simple fact... things change. The Superman we know of in comics is nothing like he was when he was first created... he has gone through many changes and retcons to become the iconic hero that he is. Some of those changes were done and then undone... and many objected to some of them... but ultimately, the changes were (for the most part) for the better.

The same thing applies here. The changes may be a little difficult to accept now, but in the long run they are probably for the best... even if they are different from what the original creator intended.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 2:15 pm
  

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there are many changes NSB gives to the canon
1. it changes what banes are
2. Instead of being a reflection of your nature and trauma, it's now tiered with Planar alignment, Tables that exist merely to grant full bonuses to a morphus feature, rules that Cap or half bonuses for a low end game.
3. It is full of more bad Nightlord mythology where princes can become nightlords (NO, never, and Not in my game or Will I play in game that does that)
4. it Negates the nightbane mystic and Sorceror or Other kind of Affiliation as being an OCC choice unless your morphus seems to grant bonuses in it.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 2:16 pm
  

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5. It does away with the wanderer diaries and establishes a wrong canon where Nightbanes are humans instead of Reborn Reshapers.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 10:25 pm
  

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Rappanui wrote:
5. It does away with the wanderer diaries and establishes a wrong canon where Nightbanes are humans instead of Reborn Reshapers.

I don't think it does away with them. It just adds more 'apocryphal ancient stories' (not that getting rid of yet ANOTHER mary sue book of history is a bad thing in my opinion)
How do you have a 'wrong canon' though? Since by default...canon is correct? Especially since it was never canon that 'banes WERE Reshapers? (yes, yes I know that C.J. is reputed to have said that was the intent, but it was never actually put in any book, so...its not canon)

As for the rest....yah its, yet another, reboot for the series...
Seems that pretty much every book has revised how things worked, why should this be any different :D

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Unread postPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 4:31 am
  

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Razorwing wrote:
Are the changes really that bad?
It's a subjective issue people differ on... but yeah, I think so.

Razorwing wrote:
What difference does it really make if they are called Nightbane or Nightspawn?
The latter acknowledges that they are beings spawned from the Nightlands and relates to their mysterious history with the Ancient civilization, the Formless Ones and the Reshapers.

Razorwing wrote:
What does it matter if they were born of human parents or just appeared out of thin air as an infant?
The first cements them too heavily in our world, the second keeps them properly alienated, even if they never knew it.

Razorwing wrote:
Simple fact... things change. The Superman we know of in comics is nothing like he was when he was first created... he has gone through many changes and retcons to become the iconic hero that he is. Some of those changes were done and then undone... and many objected to some of them... but ultimately, the changes were (for the most part) for the better.
Incorrect, the original Superman hasn't changed at all. Instead, we have been introduced to multiple new Supermen who exist in entirely different realities.

Much as there is "Kal-El" of earth 1 and "Kal-L" of earth 2, distinguishing the original concept from the new concept using different terms helps keep the ideas separate. I don't even mind if there's similar abilities. If psionics in CB1revised can emulate the original chi powers, then humans can emulate Nightbane. Heck, they could already do that as Shadow Warlocks, this is just taking it a step further.

The convenient mistake early on in Dark Conversions of calling Nightlands "the Darklands" gives us the easy option of calling these new humans who emulate Nightbane almost exactly "the Darkbane".

Since "spawn" twists Todd's knickers, we can use something like "the Nightborn" to reflect the original concept.

This way they can coexist, those born from the Nightlands, those humans reacting to become banes of the Dark.

Rappanui wrote:
rules that Cap or half bonuses for a low end game.
Those rules sucked, luckily they're more like suggestions, and GMs always had the power to mess with stats... so meh.

Rappanui wrote:
It is full of more bad Nightlord mythology where princes can become nightlords (NO, never, and Not in my game or Will I play in game that does that)
Well... Night Princes are a step above mortals, and if a mortal sorcerer can become a Nightlord I don't have a huge problem with a Night prince doing so (or a Night Princess becoming a Night Lady). The biggest hole in this idea which I think occurs to most of us is that, if Lords were former Princes, why do they lack the illusion powers? Or, if Princes were forming sorcerers, an intermediate step between Sorcerer and Nightlord, why do they lack spellcasting if even some Nightlords remember it?

All I can figure is we could say that Princedom is like some intermediary step, where you must think of the world purely in term of illusions, not practising normal magic, and eventually through this you somehow gain the ability to alter reality directly as if it were an illusion. Once you gain that revelation, you lose your illusion powers, but are then able to do some limited spellcasting again.

Rappanui wrote:
it Negates the nightbane mystic and Sorceror or Other kind of Affiliation as being an OCC choice unless your morphus seems to grant bonuses in it.
I kinda missed out on this detail, would anyone know what pages are critical to read to understand the change differences in NB sorcerer/mystic OCCs?

Rappanui wrote:
5. It does away with the wanderer diaries and establishes a wrong canon where Nightbanes are humans instead of Reborn Reshapers.

It doesn't so much do away with them as contradict them, I would say. Wanderer diaries were never canon, they were writings which could be interpreted as mere opinion. I think there are some actual canon statements that are contradicted though. Moreso by Dark Conversions (which explicitly says NB are human) than by Survival Guide (which only declares this in an opinion piece written by some loser NB who sucks compared to Wanderer).

I can discount the claims in Survival Guide the same way I can discount that weird writeup about Lilith/Moloch history at the start of Shadows of Light, since both are written in Story Form.

Stuff like that is fun, but much like an Erin Tarn letter, we can throw it out if it conflicts with narrator canon.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 2:40 pm
  

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the Magog love story in NSB .. the She was a native american princess? huh???? the nightlords originate in Pre History 10,000 BCE Style Era, Pre Deluvian Civilization. Why would banes only appear after visiting the new world?

I prefer that Nightprinces are merely pawns who originate in the nightlands who only came into existance when the nightlords did....Shaped out of ideals and egoes of mortals who almost became Nightlords (perhaps they are failed nightlords... Bad people who lacked the magical knowhow to do the final step).

however, the nightprince being a young nightlord was also proposed in shallows of night...
which was a lazy, (IMO) stupid take when it's clearly the Night prince they mentioned is a NIGHTLORD not a prince.

As for Nightlords... there is alot of information (real world) on "atlantis" (the Preflood human empires) based on the myths/legends. It's Sad that this work was not consulted by future freelancers instead they stole from White wolf and horror movie mythology over and over.

it would of been better to link the real world atlantis mythology into Nightbane setting... there's certainly enough information out there to work a nice setting and nice segue to the Sumerian Nightlords that rule today. For example, the Tunisians of today are the last descendants of the real atlantis, according to mythology, but these were the ones behind the pellopinisian wars. (also, the ones related to the ones who built the pyramids). (As it stands, Atlantis fell in 3 stages, the 3rd stagers were the bronze age war like people the greeks fought, the First stagers being the ones who landed across various shores of the americas and established various Pyramid societies. one of the stagers (i believe it was 2nd or 1st) was known to have "talking beasts" and could do things no others could ... ( perhaps these Survivors were the basis of the euro-asian Gods).

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Unread postPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 8:07 pm
  

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Rappanui wrote:
the Magog love story in NSB .. the She was a native american princess? huh???? the nightlords originate in Pre History 10,000 BCE Style Era, Pre Deluvian Civilization. Why would banes only appear after visiting the new world?

I prefer that Nightprinces are merely pawns who originate in the nightlands who only came into existance when the nightlords did....Shaped out of ideals and egoes of mortals who almost became Nightlords (perhaps they are failed nightlords... Bad people who lacked the magical knowhow to do the final step).

however, the nightprince being a young nightlord was also proposed in shallows of night...
which was a lazy, (IMO) stupid take when it's clearly the Night prince they mentioned is a NIGHTLORD not a prince.

As for Nightlords... there is alot of information (real world) on "atlantis" (the Preflood human empires) based on the myths/legends. It's Sad that this work was not consulted by future freelancers instead they stole from White wolf and horror movie mythology over and over.

it would of been better to link the real world atlantis mythology into Nightbane setting... there's certainly enough information out there to work a nice setting and nice segue to the Sumerian Nightlords that rule today. For example, the Tunisians of today are the last descendants of the real atlantis, according to mythology, but these were the ones behind the pellopinisian wars. (also, the ones related to the ones who built the pyramids). (As it stands, Atlantis fell in 3 stages, the 3rd stagers were the bronze age war like people the greeks fought, the First stagers being the ones who landed across various shores of the americas and established various Pyramid societies. one of the stagers (i believe it was 2nd or 1st) was known to have "talking beasts" and could do things no others could ... ( perhaps these Survivors were the basis of the euro-asian Gods).

Meh, I think Atlantis has been done to death. As long as your going to make something mythological real...why not pick something that HASNT been done in every game? There is a LOT of mythology out there to plunder for ideas.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 8:44 pm
  

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Perhaps we plunder the Sumerian/Babylonian stuff in Pantheons? I want to see Nightlord vs Demon Lilith.

Rappanui wrote:
the Magog love story in NSB .. the She was a native american princess? huh???? the nightlords originate in Pre History 10,000 BCE Style Era, Pre Deluvian Civilization. Why would banes only appear after visiting the new world?

Rappanui wrote:
I prefer that Nightprinces are merely pawns who originate in the nightlands who only came into existance when the nightlords did....Shaped out of ideals and egoes of mortals who almost became Nightlords (perhaps they are failed nightlords... Bad people who lacked the magical knowhow to do the final step).
This works too. They may even share a history with those demons introduced in Nightlands who have the same powers. TBH I just don't have a good imagination for coming up with alternate backgrounds, but having the Princes being their own fallen people is pretty neat.

Rappanui wrote:
the nightprince being a young nightlord was also proposed in shallows of night...which was a lazy, (IMO) stupid take when it's clearly the Night prince they mentioned is a NIGHTLORD not a prince.
Was that in a canonical way or just 'here's our cool opening athanathos mythology' way?

I'm not opposed to NPs potentially becoming NLs but I think there's no guarantees, they might be strung along like the majority of sorcerers/cultists would be, as the Night Lords probably don't want any competition (much like Demon/Deevil Lords) and discourage people from rising in rank. If they need more management they can always make Avatars.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 9:40 pm
  

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Rappanui wrote:
the Magog love story in NSB .. the She was a native american princess? huh???? the nightlords originate in Pre History 10,000 BCE Style Era, Pre Deluvian Civilization. Why would banes only appear after visiting the new world?

I prefer that Nightprinces are merely pawns who originate in the nightlands who only came into existance when the nightlords did....Shaped out of ideals and egoes of mortals who almost became Nightlords (perhaps they are failed nightlords... Bad people who lacked the magical knowhow to do the final step).

however, the nightprince being a young nightlord was also proposed in shallows of night...
which was a lazy, (IMO) stupid take when it's clearly the Night prince they mentioned is a NIGHTLORD not a prince.

As for Nightlords... there is alot of information (real world) on "atlantis" (the Preflood human empires) based on the myths/legends. It's Sad that this work was not consulted by future freelancers instead they stole from White wolf and horror movie mythology over and over.

it would of been better to link the real world atlantis mythology into Nightbane setting... there's certainly enough information out there to work a nice setting and nice segue to the Sumerian Nightlords that rule today. For example, the Tunisians of today are the last descendants of the real atlantis, according to mythology, but these were the ones behind the pellopinisian wars. (also, the ones related to the ones who built the pyramids). (As it stands, Atlantis fell in 3 stages, the 3rd stagers were the bronze age war like people the greeks fought, the First stagers being the ones who landed across various shores of the americas and established various Pyramid societies. one of the stagers (i believe it was 2nd or 1st) was known to have "talking beasts" and could do things no others could ... ( perhaps these Survivors were the basis of the euro-asian Gods).




actually Atlantis mythology was never done right. PErhaps the only game that got close was Call of cthulhu, except they mixed in it a Deep Ones Mythology. The Man in Yellow is also a strong person in atlantean mythology. Various real world tribes had atlantean influence, at Diffirent periods of history. There is an Encyclopedia of Atlantis that goes through all these links and it touches many areas many regions.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 9:43 pm
  

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Tor wrote:
Perhaps we plunder the Sumerian/Babylonian stuff in Pantheons? I want to see Nightlord vs Demon Lilith.

Rappanui wrote:
the Magog love story in NSB .. the She was a native american princess? huh???? the nightlords originate in Pre History 10,000 BCE Style Era, Pre Deluvian Civilization. Why would banes only appear after visiting the new world?

Rappanui wrote:
I prefer that Nightprinces are merely pawns who originate in the nightlands who only came into existance when the nightlords did....Shaped out of ideals and egoes of mortals who almost became Nightlords (perhaps they are failed nightlords... Bad people who lacked the magical knowhow to do the final step).
This works too. They may even share a history with those demons introduced in Nightlands who have the same powers. TBH I just don't have a good imagination for coming up with alternate backgrounds, but having the Princes being their own fallen people is pretty neat.

Rappanui wrote:
the nightprince being a young nightlord was also proposed in shallows of night...which was a lazy, (IMO) stupid take when it's clearly the Night prince they mentioned is a NIGHTLORD not a prince.
Was that in a canonical way or just 'here's our cool opening athanathos mythology' way?

I'm not opposed to NPs potentially becoming NLs but I think there's no guarantees, they might be strung along like the majority of sorcerers/cultists would be, as the Night Lords probably don't want any competition (much like Demon/Deevil Lords) and discourage people from rising in rank. If they need more management they can always make Avatars.



The author kept calling him a prince of the city in the WOD fashion, despite having the abilities and powers and attributes of a nightlord. In NSG the Nightprince thinks he can become a nightlord.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:12 pm
  

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What does Curious George have to do with Atlantis or Nightbane?

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Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:21 pm
  

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Rappanui wrote:
The author kept calling him a prince of the city in the WOD fashion, despite having the abilities and powers and attributes of a nightlord.
Could just be semantics, Lilith might not mind being called Princess now and then.

Rappanui wrote:
In NSG the Nightprince thinks he can become a nightlord.
and nobody ever gave an underling false hopes :D

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Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 12:55 am
  

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13eowulf wrote:
What does Curious George have to do with Atlantis or Nightbane?

the king of yellow is an important figure in atlantean mythology. they have several dieties, Such as those Deities they found around santorini and Crete.

I will get the book I read this in a few minutes. ah... right .. i guess I mis read... The king of Yellow is Kulkulkan, the creator of the Mayan Empire.
anyway, the book is Encyclopedia of Atlantis, written by joseph Frank, published in 2005.



After some fast forward reading in the book : 1st Stage Atlantis had 1. Space travel, Air travel, Transformable ships, Talking beasts, and a City that was tethered (Space elevator) to the sky... One day it got struck by a "Shooting star" and the city caused global destruction...If anyone noticed, the "Ring of fire" is almost an unbroken line of Fissures that do not really resemble natural formations.
..but after that flood, they settled more and more islands and lands... and lost much of their technology. It also said that the early atlantians were "immortal" .... With various kingdoms setup in Africa, Asia, Europe, Americas...
the Mu Civilization being survivors of later Volcanic apolcalypses ( perhaps they tapped geothermal power for their Steam /bronze age technology,...)..


That Said, Mythologically, it includes a Number of Gods who originate from Atlantis, Sehkmet, Viracocha, Bast, Ra, Poseidon, Atlas, Kulkulkan...
It seems rife for Rifts CB 2 Merger.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 7:19 am
  

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Not to derail this thread too much, but my analogy to Superman's evolution over the years is quite accurate.

When first concieved, his powers were very limited... mostly to super strength which allowed him to lift a car, run fast and leap about 1/8 mile. He also had dense flesh that couldn't be pirced by anything less than an artilery shell. There was no vision based powers and he wasn't from another planet yet (though he was a foundling). Even his signature costume was based on the circus performer costumes of the late 19th early 20th centuries.

It wasn't until the very first animated series that he recieved his first power boost... the ability to actually fly... which was followed by other boosts to his powers, including god-like strength, his vision powers and more. Not all the powers he was given were kept... and even those he was given were eventually scaled back so that writers could provide him with realistic challenges. All of these changes to the character are what we call "retcons" as they changed the character's abilities after he already been given them. Even the source of his power has evolved from being soully based on his Kryptonian herritage, to being based on Krypton's enviroment to now being based on a combination of Kryptonian herritage and Earth's Enviroment (including Earth's Yellow sun). Even his infamous vulnerability to Kryptonite was a retcon introduced many years later... and that too has been changed many times to include many different types that affect him in different ways and then back to a single type.

Yes, the core of the character is now fairly stable, with few retcons to his abilities... but they were there in the early years of his creation. In fact, the very original concept had him as a villain with mental powers... though that was never expanded upon past one story in 1933.

So what does this have to do with Nightbane? Concepts change and evolve as new writers deal with the problems of the original concept and add their own ideas to the mix. Carella may have had his own ideas as to what the Nightbane would eventually be, but that what may have been is irrelivant.

When I hear the name Nightspwan, I don't see the connection to the Nightland, the Reshapers or anything noble about these beings. To me that name suggest a monster or demon created by the night to plague humanity... a being just as monsterous and dangerous as the vampires and Nightlords themselves. In fact, with that name I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out they were created by the Nightlords... who else but the Lords of the Night would create the Spawn of the Night? No... the name Nightbane suits them far better as most fight the creatures of the Night that plague humanity... creatures that are more suited to being called Nightspawn than the Nightbane.

As for being born of humans, I see this as a better method for how so many potential Nightbane could have been alive durring Dark Day. Fewer than ten thousand had Become before that incident... and then there was a sudden population explosion... so much so that those alive before hand were overwhelmed at the numbers... and that wasn't even all the potential Nightbane. We are talking about hundreds of thousands, possibly millions of Nightbane around the world (still a small number compared to the billions of humans). The idea that so many people had just spontaneously appeared as infants years before with no one noticing or questioning their appearance (and no investigations) seems to be stretching plausability a bit too far for me.

That said, I do like the idea that Nightbane are connected to the Formless Ones (still not sure if the Reshapers are the same thing). However, instead of being spontaneously formed as originally concieved (and now retconed), I see it more as reincarnation... the soul of a Formless One being born into the body of a human child (yes... used the same idea from Babylon 5's Membari souls being born in human bodies... the Babylonian connection was too sweet not to hint at). This satisfies both the original concept of a connection to the Formless One's and the retcon that Nightbane are now born to human parents... and is not readily provable by any conventional means in the setting.

As for the various stories and ideas within the setting (The Wanderer Diaries, the Tomb of the First)... they are merely suggestions... myths clouded by time that may or may not reveal anything about the origins of the Nightbane (they aren't meant to be anything more than that in my opinion).

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Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 6:27 pm
  

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Rappanui wrote:
13eowulf wrote:
What does Curious George have to do with Atlantis or Nightbane?

the king of yellow is an important figure in atlantean mythology. they have several dieties, Such as those Deities they found around santorini and Crete.

I will get the book I read this in a few minutes. ah... right .. i guess I mis read... The king of Yellow is Kulkulkan, the creator of the Mayan Empire.
anyway, the book is Encyclopedia of Atlantis, written by joseph Frank, published in 2005.



After some fast forward reading in the book : 1st Stage Atlantis had 1. Space travel, Air travel, Transformable ships, Talking beasts, and a City that was tethered (Space elevator) to the sky... One day it got struck by a "Shooting star" and the city caused global destruction...If anyone noticed, the "Ring of fire" is almost an unbroken line of Fissures that do not really resemble natural formations.
..but after that flood, they settled more and more islands and lands... and lost much of their technology. It also said that the early atlantians were "immortal" .... With various kingdoms setup in Africa, Asia, Europe, Americas...
the Mu Civilization being survivors of later Volcanic apolcalypses ( perhaps they tapped geothermal power for their Steam /bronze age technology,...)..


That Said, Mythologically, it includes a Number of Gods who originate from Atlantis, Sehkmet, Viracocha, Bast, Ra, Poseidon, Atlas, Kulkulkan...
It seems rife for Rifts CB 2 Merger.


Atlantean mythology? You mean the myths of and about Atlanits? Atlantis falls under Greek Mythology, being first mentioned by Plato....

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Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 11:41 pm
  

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Sorry, It's not First plato, and stop repeating that like it's the truth. Keirias is just ONE version. (Atlantis) is a civilization that has existed in many eras, in diffirent forms, so plato's version is merely the one that was most recent.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 11:44 pm
  

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.. why so many people defend bad writing? just because it's one of the first new books in a long while, doesn't mean it needs to be put on a pedestal and defended from all comers.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 11:49 pm
  

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Rappanui wrote:
Sorry, It's not First plato, and stop repeating that like it's the truth. Keirias is just ONE version. (Atlantis) is a civilization that has existed in many eras, in diffirent forms, so plato's version is merely the one that was most recent.


What on earth are you going on about? And I will thank you to not order me around, especially when the current accredited sources do in fact line up with my statement.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 11:50 pm
  

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Rappanui wrote:
.. why so many people defend bad writing? just because it's one of the first new books in a long while, doesn't mean it needs to be put on a pedestal and defended from all comers.

Bad Writing? You mean those of a neo-nazi pedophile without a degree to his name?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Collin

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Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:04 am
  

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What, You expect the ancient world to be Ethno Neutral and Politically correct? Read the book and stop complaining about who wrote it.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:09 am
  

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Rappanui wrote:
What, You expect the ancient world to be Ethno Neutral and Politically correct? Read the book and stop complaining about who wrote it.


I read plenty. But the works of a convicted pedophile wont be on that list. And espousing those works while using a pen name to conceal the identity of the author is terrible, especially here, on an all-ages forum.
Further on top of the pedophilia, and the neo-nazi-ism, the author has ZERO credibility, attempting to hold his works up as something Palladium should incorporate into their games is ludicrous. It is perhaps one of the worst things they could do.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:13 am
  

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Rappanui wrote:
What, You expect the ancient world to be Ethno Neutral and Politically correct? Read the book and stop complaining about who wrote it.

Does the author of the book have any credentials though to BE writing a book? Especially if his book presumes to challenge all the other prevailing theories about history that happen to have scholastic backing? Or is he a pop culture new age author with no fact checking?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantis is a good basic primer on Atlantis for starters

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Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:16 am
  

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He Collates the various atlantis legends. Somehow that is a crime. "history" wants to remove any scifi elements because it would NOT fit. quit beinga NWO stooge.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:23 am
  

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lol. Atlantis isn't settled Science, Just cause Krete or santorini could be "Atlantis" Doesn't explain other legends. If you read the book, You'd see that there are dozens of legends, describing diffirent things from diffirent eras. For Example, North Africa, and The Pellopinisian War, was fought during the decline of Atlantis's Civilization as the last few kings fought with the Greeks and Europeans.
an Earlier Atlantis legend has the deluge survivors settling in various Coasts. the archeologists don't care about anything older then 3000 or so BC, because it would upset the flat earthers (young earth) lunatics.

and sure, Other religions ,(Mormonism, Scientology, and others) have borrowed into it. Sumerian myth is down right scifi with Giants, gods, and talking things.

EDIT: Post edited. - NMI

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Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:26 am
  

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as for claims of "Atlantis" Sites being in spain and other places.. the reality is.. They are all part of atlantis myth.. and as such, Various peoples didn't all just move to one location but spread to all the corners of the earth.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:32 am
  

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Rappanui wrote:
He Collates the various atlantis legends. Somehow that is a crime. "history" wants to remove any scifi elements because it would NOT fit. quit beinga NWO stooge.


You know Scifi means science FICTION, right? I for one am ok with accredited HISTORIANS weeding out FICTION from HISTORY.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:34 am
  

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Rappanui wrote:
lol. Atlantis isn't settled Science, *snip*.


Atlantis isnt a science at all. It is a Myth. And while there is a Science of Mythology, it isnt what you mentioned here.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:35 am
  

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as for his past criminal record, and Neo nazi past, So what? people still watch woody allen and that other guy's movies who are pedophiles.
as for Palladium, they already have a bad reputation for promoting Right wing Hate and bad stereotypes amongst rpg fans.
Including the concepts from yet another neopagan Writer is not going to change their reputation for the worst. Rifts already includes objectionable material for Politically correct types such as the xenophobic single party totalitarian Coalition states and various forms of evil, that well, fans of Scifi EXPECt to find in a setting. nobody said RPgs were politically correct (except Phil Brucatto, who destroyed White Wolf's Mage the Ascension) and if you actually read the books, you'd see alot of mine-able material.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:39 am
  

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13eowulf wrote:
Rappanui wrote:
He Collates the various atlantis legends. Somehow that is a crime. "history" wants to remove any scifi elements because it would NOT fit. quit beinga NWO stooge.


You know Scifi means science FICTION, right? I for one am ok with accredited HISTORIANS weeding out FICTION from HISTORY.



historians are hardly experts on mythology, they only work on things they can dig up from the ground and read, they pay no headance to oral traditions or histories, esp. today. One Quack getting involved can destroy a historical record by distorting it with their own religious hubris, such as when the "missing link" became common use when debating evolution with people who do not believe in it.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:43 am
  

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Rappanui wrote:
13eowulf wrote:
Rappanui wrote:
He Collates the various atlantis legends. Somehow that is a crime. "history" wants to remove any scifi elements because it would NOT fit. quit beinga NWO stooge.


You know Scifi means science FICTION, right? I for one am ok with accredited HISTORIANS weeding out FICTION from HISTORY.



historians are hardly experts on mythology, they only work on things they can dig up from the ground and read, they pay no headance to oral traditions or histories, esp. today. One Quack getting involved can destroy a historical record by distorting it with their own religious hubris, such as when the "missing link" became common use when debating evolution with people who do not believe in it.

Do you know the difference between Historian, Archeologist, Anthropologist, Paleontologist, and the other 'ist' specialties?
Historians don't dig anything up, and most paleontologists don't read much of their subjects materials.
That said, the point of having some sort of accreditation of credentials is to avoid what you talk about. You need to make sure that the people who are espousing theories are qualified to know what they are talking about, and that the evidence they are presenting is actually valid evidence that means what they say it means. Otherwise you get psudeoscience/junk science where people claim things that are not true, or assert their own beliefs as having validity.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:44 am
  

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Rappanui wrote:
as for his past criminal record, and Neo nazi past, So what? people still watch woody allen and that other guy's movies who are pedophiles.
as for Palladium, they already have a bad reputation for promoting Right wing Hate and bad stereotypes amongst rpg fans.
Including the concepts from yet another neopagan Writer is not going to change their reputation for the worst. Rifts already includes objectionable material for Politically correct types such as the xenophobic single party totalitarian Coalition states and various forms of evil, that well, fans of Scifi EXPECt to find in a setting. nobody said RPgs were politically correct (except Phil Brucatto, who destroyed White Wolf's Mage the Ascension) and if you actually read the books, you'd see alot of mine-able material.


If you are referring to Rowan Polanski I dont actually watch his movies, none of them.

The idea of the coalition states is a FAR CRY from supporting and incorporating the unaccredited works of a convicted pedophile. They are not comparable, not in any way. It is laughable to try.

You refer to a 'bad reputation'. That is all the more reason to NOT get involved with this guy's works, not a reason TO do so.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:46 am
  

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Rappanui wrote:
13eowulf wrote:
Rappanui wrote:
He Collates the various atlantis legends. Somehow that is a crime. "history" wants to remove any scifi elements because it would NOT fit. quit beinga NWO stooge.


You know Scifi means science FICTION, right? I for one am ok with accredited HISTORIANS weeding out FICTION from HISTORY.



historians are hardly experts on mythology, they only work on things they can dig up from the ground and read, they pay no headance to oral traditions or histories, esp. today. One Quack getting involved can destroy a historical record by distorting it with their own religious hubris, such as when the "missing link" became common use when debating evolution with people who do not believe in it.


Well actually most Historians are well versed in mythology, and being able to tell it apart from History. It is part of that whole History expertise thing they have going on, you know, as accredited authorities on the subject.

As for your reference to a quack distorting things with their own hubris...... That is funny. Probably not in the way intended, but funny.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 1:12 am
  

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Historians Won't even agree that atlantis EVER existed because they are looking for a smoking gun, that won't exist.. If it wasn't for neo pagans, you wouldn't either have known about it, precisely because of it's inaccurate nature.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 1:36 am
  

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While this has been an interesting read the use of fallacies to discredit the man's book really doesn't help, whether or not someone is a pedophile or neo-nazi has no bearing on the quality and accuracy of his work. 'He's a pedophile so his work must be wrong' reasoning just won't cut it, a more valid complaint is proof of lack of experience or previous low quality or untrustworthy works. One however does not need credentials or a degree to research something and publish a paper or book on the subject nor does having credentials mean your work is somehow automatically superior or better than someone who doesn't have them. History is littered with people who proved the people with the degrees wrong while not having degrees themselves.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 2:02 am
  

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Nightmask wrote:
While this has been an interesting read the use of fallacies to discredit the man's book really doesn't help, whether or not someone is a pedophile or neo-nazi has no bearing on the quality and accuracy of his work. 'He's a pedophile so his work must be wrong' reasoning just won't cut it, a more valid complaint is proof of lack of experience or previous low quality or untrustworthy works. One however does not need credentials or a degree to research something and publish a paper or book on the subject nor does having credentials mean your work is somehow automatically superior or better than someone who doesn't have them. History is littered with people who proved the people with the degrees wrong while not having degrees themselves.

If a persons book is going to be promoted as being accurate, AND as being more accurate than the 'conventional' history. Then I would say that the burden of proof of the validity of the book, and the credentials of the author are on the promoter.
Being a neopagan, a pedophile or an (ex)Nazi all have the same bearing on those credentials, none. But the converse is also true, there are, as far as I know, no proposed credentials that validate the author as a definitive source. With out that we can't really use him as a basis for declaring that Atlantis existed, that there is a single version of the mythology/history that is accurate, nor that such a history should be the basis of any works that reference Atlantis, let alone a fictional one that is already presupposing that our 'real world' history is WRONG.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 2:53 am
  

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eliakon wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
While this has been an interesting read the use of fallacies to discredit the man's book really doesn't help, whether or not someone is a pedophile or neo-nazi has no bearing on the quality and accuracy of his work. 'He's a pedophile so his work must be wrong' reasoning just won't cut it, a more valid complaint is proof of lack of experience or previous low quality or untrustworthy works. One however does not need credentials or a degree to research something and publish a paper or book on the subject nor does having credentials mean your work is somehow automatically superior or better than someone who doesn't have them. History is littered with people who proved the people with the degrees wrong while not having degrees themselves.


If a persons book is going to be promoted as being accurate, AND as being more accurate than the 'conventional' history. Then I would say that the burden of proof of the validity of the book, and the credentials of the author are on the promoter.
Being a neopagan, a pedophile or an (ex)Nazi all have the same bearing on those credentials, none. But the converse is also true, there are, as far as I know, no proposed credentials that validate the author as a definitive source. With out that we can't really use him as a basis for declaring that Atlantis existed, that there is a single version of the mythology/history that is accurate, nor that such a history should be the basis of any works that reference Atlantis, let alone a fictional one that is already presupposing that our 'real world' history is WRONG.


I can certainly accept that, although if he's presenting his theory of what's 'right' it's as valid as any other given we don't know what 'right' is (other than obviously fantastic theories that require implausible things be accepted as facts).

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Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 4:54 am
  

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many implausible things are accepted as fact. Such as dark matter. We can't see it ,measure it, but somehow, it must exist.
All that is said in the book, there are multiple legends that involve "atlantis/mu" some sort of massive post ice age civilization that doesn't exist anymore.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 4:21 am
  

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Guys... the double/triple posts... please stop. It's REALLY hard to read.

Also I think any further discussion about Collins/Polanski might be more appropriate for Sound Off than here? It's one thing to discuss works, but to go into discussing authors is beyond the scope.

I would think regardless of what people's opinions are though, that both are too recent for their works to be public domain and as such could not be freely incorporated without worrying about copyright issues.

Rappanui wrote:
the king of yellow is an important figure in atlantean mythology. they have several dieties, Such as those Deities they found around santorini and Crete.
Reminds me that I need to finish the last few episodes to True Detective. Do you think this inspired Steven King's "Crimson King" to some degree?

Also you just made CG very grimdark for me bro.

Rappanui wrote:
Mythologically, it includes a Number of Gods who originate from Atlantis, Sehkmet, Viracocha, Bast, Ra, Poseidon, Atlas, Kulkulkan... It seems rife for Rifts CB 2 Merger.

I thought Bast+Ra+Sehkmet were Egypian, Atlas+Poseidon were Greek, Viracocha was Inca, and the Kukulcan we have in the Aztecs. Did not know there was this Pantheon overlap. Would be interesting to have some kind of 'Atlantis alliance' between various members of Pantheons for mysterious reasons.

Kind of reminds me of Marvel's Illuminati, how single members of various factions conspire to manipulate events even though they're members of their own respective groups.

Razorwing wrote:
Not to derail this thread too much, but my analogy to Superman's evolution over the years is quite accurate.

When first concieved, his powers were very limited... mostly to super strength which allowed him to lift a car, run fast and leap about 1/8 mile. He also had dense flesh that couldn't be pirced by anything less than an artilery shell. There was no vision based powers and he wasn't from another planet yet (though he was a foundling). Even his signature costume was based on the circus performer costumes of the late 19th early 20th centuries.

It wasn't until the very first animated series that he recieved his first power boost... the ability to actually fly... which was followed by other boosts to his powers, including god-like strength, his vision powers and more. Not all the powers he was given were kept... and even those he was given were eventually scaled back so that writers could provide him with realistic challenges. All of these changes to the character are what we call "retcons" as they changed the character's abilities after he already been given them. Even the source of his power has evolved from being soully based on his Kryptonian herritage, to being based on Krypton's enviroment to now being based on a combination of Kryptonian herritage and Earth's Enviroment (including Earth's Yellow sun). Even his infamous vulnerability to Kryptonite was a retcon introduced many years later... and that too has been changed many times to include many different types that affect him in different ways and then back to a single type.

Yes, the core of the character is now fairly stable, with few retcons to his abilities... but they were there in the early years of his creation. In fact, the very original concept had him as a villain with mental powers... though that was never expanded upon past one story in 1933.

Yes, and if you take a gander at the DC comics wiki, it clearly explains that these are Supermen existing in DIFFERENT UNIVERSES. Some of which were wiped out. Which does happen (just ask the Nightlords)

Razorwing wrote:
So what does this have to do with Nightbane? Concepts change and evolve as new writers deal with the problems of the original concept and add their own ideas to the mix. Carella may have had his own ideas as to what the Nightbane would eventually be, but that what may have been is irrelivant.
Yeah... no.

You don't just get to declare Carella's work irrelevant.

His vision doesn't limit new works of Nightbane, but his will always be relevant. The 'first superman', so to speak. Could a newer Nightbane be potentially better known or more popular? Sure, but comparisons will still be made, and history won't change.

Razorwing wrote:
When I hear the name Nightspwan, I don't see the connection to the Nightland, the Reshapers or anything noble about these beings. To me that name suggest a monster or demon created by the night to plague humanity... a being just as monsterous and dangerous as the vampires and Nightlords themselves.
Well that's just silly. It only suggests this because you view the Night and the Nightlands as evil things, because that's all 'Night' implies. 'Spawn' simply means 'offspring', there's nothing sinister about it. McFarlane's was sinister because it was short for HELL spawn, and it was the 'hell' that made it sinister.

The 'Night'lands only seem sinister because we associate them with the Lords and Princes who include 'Night' in their titles. But that is a conquerered title, and their realm is a conquered land. The Nightlords are human sorcerers from earth who invaded and conquered that land, just as they are doing to ours.

Razorwing wrote:
In fact, with that name I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out they were created by the Nightlords... who else but the Lords of the Night would create the Spawn of the Night?
And this shows you haven't familiarized yourself too deeply with the canon...

Razorwing wrote:
No... the name Nightbane suits them far better as most fight the creatures of the Night that plague humanity... creatures that are more suited to being called Nightspawn than the Nightbane.

I really don't know how to counter this... it's contra-indicated man. The Nightbane, if we call them that, should really be 'The Night-born who are the Bane of Evil" rather than "Bane of Night". Their history is tied to the Nightlands far before the Ba'al ever went there and dubbed themselves Nightlords.

Night != evil. Ugly != evil. That's the core concept of the RPG, that you get turned into monsters. Not all Nightbane are good, either. The core concept is not that you're an inherent evil-fighter. It's that you're inherently inhuman and linked to the Nightlands you can cross over into.

Nightbane don't Mirrorwalk spontaneously so that they can fight invaders from an alien dimension, they Mirrorwalk so they can RETURN HOME.

Razorwing wrote:
As for being born of humans, I see this as a better method for how so many potential Nightbane could have been alive durring Dark Day. Fewer than ten thousand had Become before that incident... and then there was a sudden population explosion... so much so that those alive before hand were overwhelmed at the numbers... and that wasn't even all the potential Nightbane. We are talking about hundreds of thousands, possibly millions of Nightbane around the world (still a small number compared to the billions of humans). The idea that so many people had just spontaneously appeared as infants years before with no one noticing or questioning their appearance (and no investigations) seems to be stretching plausability a bit too far for me.


That's because you're not taking Latents into account.

Nightbane have always been appearing like this, but most of them have been Latents who don't awaken. So there was a number of them already in place to have Becomings.

As for why the large numbers and why people did not question or notice them: many did. You had recruiting organizations, elder Nightbane searching them out, sorcerers covering them up or enslaving them, Seekers, etc. They were coping, because the Latent>Awakened turnover was happening slowly at its usual rate, until Dark Day.

Another issue is that it's not entirely clear if they all appeared as babies, or if they appeared while older, like Dopplegangers or Reformed Demons, already having some level of maturity.

The world has runaways who don't get identified, people who might be assumed to have run from an abusive home, that's an example of how Nightbane could be taken in.

Razorwing wrote:
That said, I do like the idea that Nightbane are connected to the Formless Ones (still not sure if the Reshapers are the same thing). However, instead of being spontaneously formed as originally concieved (and now retconed), I see it more as reincarnation... the soul of a Formless One being born into the body of a human child (yes... used the same idea from Babylon 5's Membari souls being born in human bodies... the Babylonian connection was too sweet not to hint at). This satisfies both the original concept of a connection to the Formless One's and the retcon that Nightbane are now born to human parents... and is not readily provable by any conventional means in the setting.
It connects Nightbane to humans in a way that the original RPG did not, I don't like that unnecessary deviation.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 3:13 pm
  

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Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
Just to play devils advocate Tor (And I am personally not a fan of the nightbane are born from humans either). but why is a nightbane-human connection a bad thing. after all, their facades before the becoming are Human, some morphus forms are extremely human-like, although eerie in a too-perfect kind of way, and the text we are given implys that the form the morphus take is very heavily dependant on psycological and to a degree physiological issues of this time in a human form. This does imply that if the formless ones were not human, there was some kind of connection between them, otherwise why would they choose human form to reincarante as. for that matter, why reincarante on earth at all instead of the nightlands? You can argue that saying they are a human subsecies is unnecessary with some accuracy, but some kind of connection was always implicit in the mechanics of the setting.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 7:36 pm
  

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Play nice everyone!

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Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 8:25 pm
  

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Alright.. I'm going to address the parts I involved.
1 the king of yellow was a misread i had, but it seems there were at least 7 "gods" in the atlantean Mythology. There were also more then one "Atlantis". in the book he details how Homer was part of one, and Plato Described another. Various North americna Tribes had their own legends as well, as well as the Pacific islanders and such.
in the Main Mythology Atlas was the Major Deity. He had Seven Daughters, Who were real people, and were "Queens" of the Atlantis Empire (which consisted of many islands and countries). However, When this empire fell, they resettled in many places, North America, South America, North Africa, Mediteranean, and the Pacific. They were all singular Survivors, who were more advanced then those around them, and taught them mathematics, architecture, etc. Many arrived by boat, or some other vessel, or "serpent/ Sea Animal. Later on, The other survivors moved to Mediteranean to conquer and rebuild their lost empire. This kingdom is what led to platos' tale of Keirias and all the other Currently known Atlantis mythology
Later Findings were found in the tombs of King Ramses the III and a few other pharoahs, which detailed some of the more epic feats.

Among the Civilizations said to have been founded by the Atlantis colonists: Rome, Greece, Mayan, Formorough, Celtic ( ireland was split among 3 Civilizations, Pre Anglo) - Formorough were behind the Formori Legends, and the author goes on about how they were turned into gods via legend. Many kings, queens, were turned into Mythological Gods or Creatures, and some kingdoms, particularly those in the pacific, were never beyond Bronze Age in technology.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 9:56 pm
  

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Rappanui wrote:
Alright.. I'm going to address the parts I involved.
1 the king of yellow was a misread i had, but it seems there were at least 7 "gods" in the atlantean Mythology. There were also more then one "Atlantis". in the book he details how Homer was part of one, and Plato Described another. Various North americna Tribes had their own legends as well, as well as the Pacific islanders and such.
in the Main Mythology Atlas was the Major Deity. He had Seven Daughters, Who were real people, and were "Queens" of the Atlantis Empire (which consisted of many islands and countries). However, When this empire fell, they resettled in many places, North America, South America, North Africa, Mediteranean, and the Pacific. They were all singular Survivors, who were more advanced then those around them, and taught them mathematics, architecture, etc. Many arrived by boat, or some other vessel, or "serpent/ Sea Animal. Later on, The other survivors moved to Mediteranean to conquer and rebuild their lost empire. This kingdom is what led to platos' tale of Keirias and all the other Currently known Atlantis mythology
Later Findings were found in the tombs of King Ramses the III and a few other pharoahs, which detailed some of the more epic feats.

Among the Civilizations said to have been founded by the Atlantis colonists: Rome, Greece, Mayan, Formorough, Celtic ( ireland was split among 3 Civilizations, Pre Anglo) - Formorough were behind the Formori Legends, and the author goes on about how they were turned into gods via legend. Many kings, queens, were turned into Mythological Gods or Creatures, and some kingdoms, particularly those in the pacific, were never beyond Bronze Age in technology.


Lovely work of fiction there, trying to merge a bunch of different mythologies into one.
Sadly there is literally no credible evidence to source this info from (not to mention some of the inaccuracies contained in the above).
Presenting wild yarns as fact is harmful to everyone, and disruptive to these forums. I would thank you to stop until you have a credible source to reference.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 9:58 pm
  

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So, this is the thread of misfit theory?

I would like to put forward that the world is actually a gull stone lodged uncomfortable in a giant's urethra. Ancient people agree with me, so there.

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