What's up with Nightbane?

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What's up with Nightbane?

Unread post by dpenwood »

Last fall/winter I received the Nightbane core book in a Christmas grab bag. I never expected to really play it but I figured I'd at least flip through it.

Having done that, I'm a bit surprised that it isn't more popular than it is, even if only among Palladium players. I'm generally not into horror, but I found myself really enjoying the premise. I found it to be a creative story with a lot of potential. (It's quite possible it's not as original as I think, but to me it's original. :-) )

So I'm running a Nightbane one-shot at GenCon next month to which I'm looking forward. In fact, I'm play testing it tomorrow night at a local convention. This will be my first "horror"-type game I've run since Ravenloft back in the early-mid 90s.

As I mentioned in a previous post on here, I'm concerned about running Nightbane as a one-shot and I almost wish I hadn't registered this particular event. It just seems like Nightbane focuses a lot on the individual characters; there are so many options available for one's Morphus, especially if you use issues of The Rifter as a resource. Handing someone Nightbane pre-gen in a crowded convention hall just seems to sell the game short. Nevertheless, I'm going to give it a try and see how it goes!

Anyways, does anyone else on here agree that Nightbane is a bit underrated?
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Re: What's up with Nightbane?

Unread post by Shawn Merrow »

Agree its a great setting with a lot of options on how you want to play.
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Re: What's up with Nightbane?

Unread post by dpenwood »

Rappanui wrote:it is, but really, alot of people try to do diffirent things with it, when i ran my first long term nightbane campaign i tried to use tribes of the moon to flesh it out. My 2nd one used mystic china. it's really got alot of angles to run with, but it does need more. The nightbane survival guide was a nice touch, but then it totally cuts out playing resistance and other types of Characters.


One concern I have is that I don't really "know" Nightbane that well, yet I'm running a Nightbane event. I don't know all the lingo, the culture, etc... With Rifts, I've got it down (mostly). It's like anything else: it just takes time and practice to get to know it.

In this particular one-shot, the players are members of the SpookSquad. There will be a selection of pre-gens to choose from, and I tried to vary it up a bit. There are some Nightbane and some humans of various classes. But from a numbers or even role-playing standpoint, it's unclear to me why one would want to play a plain ol' human over a Nightbane given the choice. Then again, why would choose a Wilderness Scout over a Glitterboy in Rifts? I can think of plenty of reasons why... yet those reasons don't seem to translate as well to Nightbane.

I decided to set my one-shot in the Boston area (my home) and, conveniently enough, Rifter #42 has a great article on Nightbane in Boston. I'm adding to it by borrowing details/description of NYC and Pittsburgh (from Shadows of Light).

The other itty-bitty detail is my delivery. I can come up with a good plot and story with some fun encounters, but I sense that part of Nightbane is setting the mood and giving the players a certain sense of... despair? That's where I fear I may be weak as a GM. Oh well, I'll see how it goes.

Thanks for reading my ramble.
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Re: What's up with Nightbane?

Unread post by Shawn Merrow »

You play a regular Human as the supernatural enemies will target the Nightbane before you in a fight. Also in my opinion role-playing is about playing an interesting character and not just the one with the highest stats.
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Re: What's up with Nightbane?

Unread post by Rallan »

dpenwood wrote:Having done that, I'm a bit surprised that it isn't more popular than it is, even if only among Palladium players.


That was probably a combination of two things. The game came out at a time when everyone was doing we-are-the-monsters modern horror games (blame White Wolf), so it never had a chance to stand out from the pack. And Palladium didn't really support the game line, which meant there wasn't much to generate continuing interest in the game.
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Re: What's up with Nightbane?

Unread post by dpenwood »

Rallan wrote:
dpenwood wrote:Having done that, I'm a bit surprised that it isn't more popular than it is, even if only among Palladium players.


That was probably a combination of two things. The game came out at a time when everyone was doing we-are-the-monsters modern horror games (blame White Wolf), so it never had a chance to stand out from the pack. And Palladium didn't really support the game line, which meant there wasn't much to generate continuing interest in the game.


Aaah. That's disappointing, but it makes sense.

Well, I went to the convention to run my game.... but, alas, I didn't get enough players to run it. The convention itself was dead; it looked like a number of people didn't get many/any players.

My girlfriend, being the awesome person and gamer that she is, graciously asked her Pathfinder group if they'd be willing to playtest Nightbane for a session. So we'll be doing that next week. :-)
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Re: What's up with Nightbane?

Unread post by Alrik Vas »

dpenwood wrote:
Rallan wrote:
dpenwood wrote:Having done that, I'm a bit surprised that it isn't more popular than it is, even if only among Palladium players.


That was probably a combination of two things. The game came out at a time when everyone was doing we-are-the-monsters modern horror games (blame White Wolf), so it never had a chance to stand out from the pack. And Palladium didn't really support the game line, which meant there wasn't much to generate continuing interest in the game.


Aaah. That's disappointing, but it makes sense.

Well, I went to the convention to run my game.... but, alas, I didn't get enough players to run it. The convention itself was dead; it looked like a number of people didn't get many/any players.

My girlfriend, being the awesome person and gamer that she is, graciously asked her Pathfinder group if they'd be willing to playtest Nightbane for a session. So we'll be doing that next week. :-)


Your girl is indeed awesome. Good luck with the game. I have fond memories of jacking up hounds as a human using just hand to hand combat. mwahahahaha.
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Re: What's up with Nightbane?

Unread post by Warwolf »

dpenwood wrote:Anyways, does anyone else on here agree that Nightbane is a bit underrated?


Of course I do. But then, I'm a little biased. One problem, as noted above, has been the lack of consistent support for the game line. That has largely been the fault of the writers, with myself included. Apparently for several years there was a "Nightbane curse" where writers for the line would turn in one book and disappear at best or start and never finish the manuscript at worst. Then there were those that Kev told me about that took the line into random tangents that just didn't fit.

The NSG was the first solid material in almost a decade. While that book was apparently a resounding success among the fans, Irvin was pulled away by the lure of Robotech and I became mired in grad school and... well maybe I'll explain the rest another time. But I promise that the line is not forgotten. The latest manuscript is about 2/3 done as I type this, in fact.

I will admit that it can be a bit difficult to get into the headspace of Nightbane based on just the main book. Even with the supplements people had often spoken of difficulty figuring out how to run Nightbane. This was one of the driving points behing the NSG, to show what it was like to try and survive in the dark, crumbling, supernaturally infested Earth of Nightbane. I'm striving to bring you more broad plot and adventure potential in upcoming books in order to build on the setting's potential, but I need a bit more time and patience from you folks to do so. As a matter of fact, one of the reasons Dark Designs is coming out slower than what it should is that I'm often taking time out to jot notes or even write entire blocks of text for future sourcebooks (as well as advance play-testing some of the material).

In the meantime, I would recommend picking up the existing sourcebooks as they do a good job of fleshing out the world and giving you more to work with. If you have more specific questions about the place outside of that, don't hesitate to post here or even PM me. I've run numerous games and one year-long campaign in the world so I might be able to give you tips on things from establishing atmosphere to supplementry mechanics. At any rate, good luck with your game and thanks for giving Nightbane a try. :)

Rappanui wrote:The nightbane survival guide was a nice touch, but then it totally cuts out playing resistance and other types of Characters.


I find this... curious. Care to explain further?
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Re: What's up with Nightbane?

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

Rappanui wrote:NSG has occupations like those that appear in Dead Reign. HOWEVER. IT totally leaves out the Occult/magic backgrounds that existed pre dark day. It's almost like a reboot of the NB setting. NIghtbane was a setting with magic that always existed, not one where magic only became active after dark day. The writing also includes concepts that don't mesh well with the original morphus tables, such as cartoon morphuses. They also mix in Armor ratings on morphuses which did not exist. ( I gather banes did not have Armor ratings because all their enemies were supernatural). The book is basically about early resistance type banes and adds a few new powers, but those are mostly of use to low level banes.


I don't see how any of that removes the previous magic stuff. You still have all the Through the Glass darkly stuff to use, and it didn't feel the need to add to it. I'm really not seeing how they conflict.

As to the armor ratings on Nightbane...darkblades still ignore AR so it only helps them aginst mortal stuff, really.

And the cartoon morphus and stuff seemed to be mostly converted Rifter material.
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Re: What's up with Nightbane?

Unread post by Deckard1973 »

I always thought it would make a great SyFi or Showtime series.
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Re: What's up with Nightbane?

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Alrik Vas wrote:I have fond memories of jacking up hounds as a human using just hand
I don't think Moloch would approve of that. Lilith might.
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Re: What's up with Nightbane?

Unread post by Warwolf »

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Rappanui wrote:NSG has occupations like those that appear in Dead Reign. HOWEVER. IT totally leaves out the Occult/magic backgrounds that existed pre dark day. It's almost like a reboot of the NB setting. NIghtbane was a setting with magic that always existed, not one where magic only became active after dark day. The writing also includes concepts that don't mesh well with the original morphus tables, such as cartoon morphuses. They also mix in Armor ratings on morphuses which did not exist. ( I gather banes did not have Armor ratings because all their enemies were supernatural). The book is basically about early resistance type banes and adds a few new powers, but those are mostly of use to low level banes.


I don't see how any of that removes the previous magic stuff. You still have all the Through the Glass darkly stuff to use, and it didn't feel the need to add to it. I'm really not seeing how they conflict.

As to the armor ratings on Nightbane...darkblades still ignore AR so it only helps them aginst mortal stuff, really.

And the cartoon morphus and stuff seemed to be mostly converted Rifter material.


Nekiria is mostly correct here. The NSG builds on what was already written, so the sorceror and mystic classes are still completely valid. In fact, some of the Morphus features were designed with magic-using 'Bane squarely in mind. The "toon" Morphus material specifically did NOT see reprint in the Survival Guide (I too feel it clashes with the game's horror feel). And the lack of A.R. always seemed more of an oversight to me than something deliberate. This is why I have written errata for the original tables which I'm including in the manuscript for Dark Designs.

As to Darkblades and A.R.: They ignore standard A.R. Nothing was ever said about them ignoring Natural A.R. But then, this too is something I'm addressing in the latest manuscript (any errata will almost assuredly end up in the Cutting Room Floor for free as well, so no sweat if you don't plan to buy the latest book but want the fixes/clarifications).
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Re: What's up with Nightbane?

Unread post by Shawn Merrow »

The main thing I don't want to see is a more supernatural races as player races. The more there are the more it pulls away from the focus on the Nightbane, in my opinion anyway.
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Re: What's up with Nightbane?

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

Warwolf wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Rappanui wrote:NSG has occupations like those that appear in Dead Reign. HOWEVER. IT totally leaves out the Occult/magic backgrounds that existed pre dark day. It's almost like a reboot of the NB setting. NIghtbane was a setting with magic that always existed, not one where magic only became active after dark day. The writing also includes concepts that don't mesh well with the original morphus tables, such as cartoon morphuses. They also mix in Armor ratings on morphuses which did not exist. ( I gather banes did not have Armor ratings because all their enemies were supernatural). The book is basically about early resistance type banes and adds a few new powers, but those are mostly of use to low level banes.


I don't see how any of that removes the previous magic stuff. You still have all the Through the Glass darkly stuff to use, and it didn't feel the need to add to it. I'm really not seeing how they conflict.

As to the armor ratings on Nightbane...darkblades still ignore AR so it only helps them aginst mortal stuff, really.

And the cartoon morphus and stuff seemed to be mostly converted Rifter material.


Nekiria is mostly correct here. The NSG builds on what was already written, so the sorceror and mystic classes are still completely valid. In fact, some of the Morphus features were designed with magic-using 'Bane squarely in mind. The "toon" Morphus material specifically did NOT see reprint in the Survival Guide (I too feel it clashes with the game's horror feel). And the lack of A.R. always seemed more of an oversight to me than something deliberate. This is why I have written errata for the original tables which I'm including in the manuscript for Dark Designs.

As to Darkblades and A.R.: They ignore standard A.R. Nothing was ever said about them ignoring Natural A.R. But then, this too is something I'm addressing in the latest manuscript (any errata will almost assuredly end up in the Cutting Room Floor for free as well, so no sweat if you don't plan to buy the latest book but want the fixes/clarifications).


Technically it dosn't say it ignores standard or natural AR, it just says it ignores AR period, which means the errata will technically be a retcon and not a clarification. it seems more in line with the materiall--I don't think Nightbane lacking AR was an oversight, I think carrella was more thinking there's no point in giving them something their primary threats are going to ignore--do remember that in the main book fiction, 17 or 20 hounds completely routed a gathering of nightbane all by themselves--they are supposed to apparently be very effective.

granted, as current author it's certainly in your right to make that change, but I feel it's more in keeping with the spirit to keep darkblades effective aginst natural AR--lord knows the hounds already have enough trouble keeping up with their fluff.
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Re: What's up with Nightbane?

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Nekira Sudacne wrote:Technically it dosn't say it ignores standard or natural AR, it just says it ignores AR period, which means the errata will technically be a retcon and not a clarification. it seems more in line with the materiall--I don't think Nightbane lacking AR was an oversight, I think carrella was more thinking there's no point in giving them something their primary threats are going to ignore--do remember that in the main book fiction, 17 or 20 hounds completely routed a gathering of nightbane all by themselves--they are supposed to apparently be very effective.

granted, as current author it's certainly in your right to make that change, but I feel it's more in keeping with the spirit to keep darkblades effective aginst natural AR--lord knows the hounds already have enough trouble keeping up with their fluff.


Except that "standard A.R." is never referred to as such. It's always mentioned just as "A.R." Natural A.R. on the other hand is always named thus. As far as Hounds not keeping up with their fluff and somehow being "the main threat" for Nightbane I disagree on both accounts. 1: Hounds are scary as heck as-is (took half of the player group 3 melees or more to take down ONE the other night) and 2: used more sparingly than, say, NSB agents. If a group sees Hounds, the crap has hit the fan. That's why my campaign group used to run every time they saw Hounds or Hunters. :lol:
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Re: What's up with Nightbane?

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

Warwolf wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:Technically it dosn't say it ignores standard or natural AR, it just says it ignores AR period, which means the errata will technically be a retcon and not a clarification. it seems more in line with the materiall--I don't think Nightbane lacking AR was an oversight, I think carrella was more thinking there's no point in giving them something their primary threats are going to ignore--do remember that in the main book fiction, 17 or 20 hounds completely routed a gathering of nightbane all by themselves--they are supposed to apparently be very effective.

granted, as current author it's certainly in your right to make that change, but I feel it's more in keeping with the spirit to keep darkblades effective aginst natural AR--lord knows the hounds already have enough trouble keeping up with their fluff.


Except that "standard A.R." is never referred to as such. It's always mentioned just as "A.R." Natural A.R. on the other hand is always named thus.


Yes, that's point. Just "A.R." refers to any AR, not just one kind of A.R.. Natural A.R. Is a subcatagory of A.R., and thus follows all the same rules that apply to normal A.R. except when clearly exempted, such as rolls under doing no damage at all. Hounds Darkblades ability to ignore A.R. therefore applys to any sub-catagory of A.R. with no implication of immunity being granted.

You seem to veiw Natural A.R. as always being a seperate catagory entirely, but this simply dosn't hold up. every time A.R. is mentioned as a thing, it's always under the context of A.R. in general and is clearly meant to be treated by all the same rules except where specifically noted. Heck, the A.R. Definition on page 62 of the nightbane book clearly lumps them in as the same thing, and gives an example of what happens if you stack armor on top of a character with artifical AR. no distingushing line is drawn except in their interaction--it seems to pretty clearly indicate they're the same thing with slightly different implimentation, so anything that ignores one ignores the other.

As I said, as an author it's easy to make such a distinction, but if you can point to anywhere that actually says natural AR is treated entirely seperately as it is, i'd like to see it.

As far as Hounds not keeping up with their fluff and somehow being "the main threat" for Nightbane I disagree on both accounts. 1: Hounds are scary as heck as-is (took half of the player group 3 melees or more to take down ONE the other night)


How? No i'm serous, on another thread here I did a mock-up combat between one pretty bog standard Ken doll morphus and one hound, and the hound got in exactly one good lick and was completely creamed thereafter. even with average rolls the nightbanes PS and PP scores are so high that at best it's an even match and at worst the hound is completely dominated (ever see what a 48 PS and 29 PP score does to hounds? it's not pretty at all, they go down like stormtroopers)

and 2: used more sparingly than, say, NSB agents. If a group sees Hounds, the crap has hit the fan. That's why my campaign group used to run every time they saw Hounds or Hunters. :lol:


that makes them more scarey in context then on their own right.
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Re: What's up with Nightbane?

Unread post by Rallan »

Rappanui wrote:Nightbane intended to be Kitchen sink of horror, .. instead people got hung up on The Name of the game.


That's an... interesting reading of the game you've got going on there.
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Re: What's up with Nightbane?

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Rappanui wrote:how was it not the kitchen sink of horror? It had demonic gargolyes, Illusion masters, dream eaters, and so forth. it had every contemporary movie monster in it, and the minions and freaks of cabal/Nightbreed. ... it had room to grow, and fans were acting like new player races were bad.


Probably because the average survival horror video game, novel, and movie has relatively normal humans trying to survive all the horrors and not a range of super-humanly powerful beings who actually have the ability to battle some horrors at least straight on rather than having to skulk around and engage in tricks because a straight-up fight is a one-hit death.
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Re: What's up with Nightbane?

Unread post by Warwolf »

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Yes, that's point. Just "A.R." refers to any AR, not just one kind of A.R.. Natural A.R. Is a subcatagory of A.R., and thus follows all the same rules that apply to normal A.R. except when clearly exempted, such as rolls under doing no damage at all. Hounds Darkblades ability to ignore A.R. therefore applys to any sub-catagory of A.R. with no implication of immunity being granted.

You seem to veiw Natural A.R. as always being a seperate catagory entirely, but this simply dosn't hold up. every time A.R. is mentioned as a thing, it's always under the context of A.R. in general and is clearly meant to be treated by all the same rules except where specifically noted. Heck, the A.R. Definition on page 62 of the nightbane book clearly lumps them in as the same thing, and gives an example of what happens if you stack armor on top of a character with artifical AR. no distingushing line is drawn except in their interaction--it seems to pretty clearly indicate they're the same thing with slightly different implimentation, so anything that ignores one ignores the other.


That is your reading/interpretation, it certainly isn't mine. This is due to the fact that Natural and Standard A.R. behave in radically different ways, are referenced differently, and the metaphysics behind both are certainly different. It is certainly more than "slightly different implementation." While it is true that Natural and Standard are categories of A.R., one is never (in all my readings) differentiated from the overarching term while the other is. And the fact that this concept is open to interpretation at all has led me to the logical conclusion that some clarification is needed. That is it, nothing so grandiose as a "retcon."

In regards to your "mock combat." I would have to see it to comment futher, but I'm willing to bet that you may be making at least one mistake that your past G.M. did (which drastically disadvantages Hounds). Even without those considerations you have to keep in mind that in Nightbane it will almost never be a fair 1 on 1 fight. Hounds typically fight in packs. Even against your drastically overpowered example-'Bane 4-5 Hounds at once could drop them in a melee or two (especially if replacements waited in the wings to replace those that fell, which would be common for such a powerful Nightbane foe).
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Re: What's up with Nightbane?

Unread post by Shawn Merrow »

Warwolf wrote:In regards to your "mock combat." I would have to see it to comment futher, but I'm willing to bet that you may be making at least one mistake that your past G.M. did (which drastically disadvantages Hounds). Even without those considerations you have to keep in mind that in Nightbane it will almost never be a fair 1 on 1 fight. Hounds typically fight in packs. Even against your drastically overpowered example-'Bane 4-5 Hounds at once could drop them in a melee or two (especially if replacements waited in the wings to replace those that fell, which would be common for such a powerful Nightbane foe).


If you referring to the supernatural strength bonus that does make a big difference. It doesn't take to many hounds to really mess up your Nightbanes day or night.
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Re: What's up with Nightbane?

Unread post by slade the sniper »

So, did you run it at GenCon? How did it go?

Also, I agree that NB is under-rated.

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