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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:12 am
  

D-Bee

Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2013 1:48 pm
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Hey guys, just wanted to run a scenario by you. Okay, so I had one of my players want to run a Natural Genius who became a Sword Bearer. So the character is eseentially a dual-class. Well we had two different views on the character. He started the character out as a Natural Genius, meaning for the character creation process. Then added in the class abilities of the Sword Bearer class, but excluding the education. Now the character is level 1, I should mention, and also before he created his character, I worked up a cheat sheet, to help illustrate what changes I thought were going to happen for the dual-class character..

However my feeling was that I felt that when the Natural Genius became a Sword Bearer, the telepathic bond which drains the P.P.E. of the bonded host, would also affect the Natural Genius, since the P.P.E. would've still been in the body of the Natural Genius, as it's used to fuel their own class abilities. He, however, disagreed, and felt the bonding process would've only affected any remaining P.P.E. that was unused, and not those he already spent.

However to keep in spirit, I allowed him to keep the P.P.E. equal to his Physical Endurance, as well as the 1d4 which remains for the Sword Bearer typically, but imposed the minimum 2 P.P.E., as required by the Natural Genius (vs. the Sword Bearer's minimum of 1 (and max. of 4)). Also explained any P.P.E. unspent would be reduced to 1d4 (if higher than 4, but not lower than 2).

Now figuring a Natural Genius' abilities being what they are, such a sudden drop of P.P.E. would affect their body dramatically, so I also gave him the option of buying the abilities of a Natural Genius with the I.S.P. points also. A way of showing the Natural Genius' physiology adapting to the sudden loss of P.P.E.

So anyway, I'm kinda curious on how you other G.M.'s would've handled such a combination of the two classes? As for the outcome on my end, the player gave up the class, and is now working on his fifth character now to join my current campaign. Ah munchkin gamers... :-?


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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:44 pm
  

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Palladin

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There's no reason for becoming a Sword-Bearer to negatively impact the natural ability of the Natural & Genius OCC, their PPE was considered spent initially for their bonuses or special abilities that they acquired, save for the part they kept as their permanent PPE base. There isn't going to be any drain on those natural features as a result of bonding with the weapon, indeed the nature of the character and their focus may be why the weapon wanted them in the first place and it would hardly bond with someone to damage the very assets it desired in its efforts to battle evil.

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Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.

'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin

It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:23 am
  

D-Bee

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My main concern was fear of Munchkinism, plus like I said my reasoning was the P.P.E. is still within the body, just fueling their enhanced abilities. I mean if an artifact chooses a Nightbane or magic-user to be their host, they'd be screwed also from the draining of the P.P.E.

Here's a quick preview of his character at level 1.

HP: 76
SDC: 210 (310*/410** (or 510 with both abilities on))
I.Q.: 30
M.E.: 24
M.A.: 14
P.S.: 44 (52)
P.P.: 43
P.E.: 44
P.B.: 12
Speed: 41

His Natural Genius powers were: Exceptional Physical Prowess, Exceptional Physical Strength, Exceptional Physical Endurance, Weapon Expert, & Mental Genius. His artifact powers are Anti-Magic, Artifact Armor**, Enhanced Attributes, and Supernatural Strength & Endurance*.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:43 am
  

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Palladin

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Nightbane and sorcerers aren't Natural/Genius characters, unlike the Natural/Genius they actually have stores of PPE that they use to fuel their abilities and can recover over time with use. The Natural/Genius permanently converted PPE into enhanced attributes.

I'm also not seeing how that character is possible by the book, all those abilities are simply too expensive for at least a human to be able to afford, they simply can't start with enough PPE to purchase 5 very expensive special abilities. You'd have to start by somehow maxing out the dice rolls for PE and the random extra added to things and probably need a number of physical skills to maybe increase the PE even more.

Doing the math the character has 83 PPE in special abilities, if you had a starting PE of 30 and maxed the dice you'd 'only' have 70 PPE available, and 2 of that can't be spent leaving only 68 free. That's 15 less than is required to make that happen, and you can't include PE bonuses from Exceptional Physical Endurance or exceptional Physical Strength. So the character would require a natural PE of 45 AND max the 4d6 roll for PPE to do that.

So the character is starting out already breaking the rules for the Natural and Genius OCC, he has more PPE than is even remotely possible for a human to have normally, in fact it looks like the character was created simply by picking the max dice rolls in general (Mental genius certainly doesn't give you any particularly improved odds of acquiring a 30 IQ). I mean really, looking it over the character started out as one built over-powered/twinked out as it's not plausible he could have managed all those perfect dice rolls, so adding in the Sword Bearer just twinks it out even more.

It seems more like it's just meant as a combat monster and twinked out like a video game character instead of something meant to be actually role-played. I mean sheesh it has FOUR stats over 40 and unsurprisingly the only average stats just happen to be MA and PB, the ones of least use in either crushing an opponent or resisting an opponent's attacks including mental assaults.

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Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.

'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin

It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:20 am
  

D-Bee

Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2013 1:48 pm
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Yeah, like I said Munchkin. He kept re-rolling sets of the 8 rolls until he got max rolls for most of the skills, then pretty much went all out on the Physical skills. He managed to buy extra past his P.P.E. because he also spent some I.S.P. to burn. So he basically used some of my cheat sheet (what he liked), but ignored the rest of the limitations on the cheat sheet, because he felt it wasn't fair for him to lose P.P.E., but okay to spend the I.S.P. anyway - which also irked me.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:32 am
  

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Palladin

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syntheticlife4m wrote:
Yeah, like I said Munchkin. He kept re-rolling sets of the 8 rolls until he got max rolls for most of the skills, then pretty much went all out on the Physical skills. He managed to buy extra past his P.P.E. because he also spent some I.S.P. to burn. So he basically used some of my cheat sheet (what he liked), but ignored the rest of the limitations on the cheat sheet, because he felt it wasn't fair for him to lose P.P.E., but okay to spend the I.S.P. anyway - which also irked me.


Well that's when you just have to say 'sorry that's just not going to fly', if no one else got to basically say 'I'm rolling dice until I max out' or any of the rest then clearly he doesn't rate it either. Just chop off the Mental Genius and Weapons Expert and reduce his stats to the starting minimums (plus given bonuses) with regards to things like his PE and PS, he clearly doesn't rate a character with half its stats in the 40+ range and everything else.

If he complains just admit you simply gave him too much leeway and are curtailing him down to acceptable levels. He should be grateful he'd even get to have the benefits of being both a Natural and Genius OCC and a Swordbearer OCC at the same time.

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Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.

'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin

It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:58 am
  

D-Bee

Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2013 1:48 pm
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Thanks for the consult! :)


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 4:07 pm
  

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Knight

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I feel like punching this guy in the face. I think i've rerolled stats all of ZERO times in Palladium. With all the physical bonuses you can get from skills there is literally no reason for it (unless you're truly terrible, like you get nothing over a 9...then i let people reroll, but i'm not so sure i would myself).

For instance, my Rifts character is

IQ: 23
ME: 21
MA: 19
PS: 35
PP: 33
PE: 34
PB: 17
SPD: 44

I actually rolled REALLY well (one of like...4 times total i've ever done that in decades of playing these games) and even though i did my GM STILL felt the need to screw me over by declaring i was part demon (and not giving me any extra abilities, but he felt it explained my super stats) and that people who could detect evil would sense that i was a bad guy (even though i was scrupulous, leaning toward anarchist).

You're player seems to just want the silly, like Nightmask suggests. Plus you can't even dual class until 3rd level.

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Mark Hall wrote:
Y'all seem to assume that Palladium books are written with the same exacting precision with which they are analyzed. I think that is... ambitious.

Talk from the Edge: Operation Dead Lift, Operation Reload, Operation Human Devil, Operation Handshake, Operation Windfall 1, Operation Windfall 2, Operation Sniper Wolf, Operation Natural 20


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 6:12 pm
  

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Palladin

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Simon Greene
super vagabond level-7
scrupulous
exPS-50
pp-17
pe-23
spd/fly-mach 1
IQ-9
me-11
ma-19
pb-21

all natural rolls and skill/super power bonuses. and i get called a munchkin for liking super powers?


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 6:17 pm
  

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Knight

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Comment: Don't waste your time gloating over a wounded enemy. Pull the damn trigger.
Who said you were a munchkin for liking super powers? I just don't dig them, personally. Besides, stats don't come into play that much when you pick the right ones. :P

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Mark Hall wrote:
Y'all seem to assume that Palladium books are written with the same exacting precision with which they are analyzed. I think that is... ambitious.

Talk from the Edge: Operation Dead Lift, Operation Reload, Operation Human Devil, Operation Handshake, Operation Windfall 1, Operation Windfall 2, Operation Sniper Wolf, Operation Natural 20


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Unread postPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 12:53 am
  

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Monk

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knee jerk reaction is that the idea is munchkin.
It is outside of canon.

If I was going to make it work for my game, I would go with the BTS2 Nat Gen. or only allow skills bonuses. And having the PPE @ the normal roll cut in half. This would be my ideas on it w/o thinking about it for a while.

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Q's on this board need canon answers first for the question that was asked. Then you can post your own house rules listed as your house rules.
I say what the classes ARE even if the books mislabel them, so get over it.

Mostly I write out exactly what I mean, then sometimes get even more finicky.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 1:33 pm
  

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syntheticlife4m wrote:
My main concern was fear of Munchkinism
That's in the mind of players (and moreso GMs' paranoia) than it is in the stats of a character.

Keep in mind guys like Moloch seem to be able to use Greatest Artifacts without even becoming Sword Bearers or having to burn off their PPE, too.

I don't get the rage about people re-rolling stats until they're awesome. Even a human with 30 in everything is probably inferior to a Nightbane or a Guardian or a Dragon. Even high-attribute folk can die. Sometimes it's better to get beaten up and ignored than perceived as a serious threat by your enemies.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 1:59 pm
  

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Adventurer

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Interesting concept.
I thought you might go in a different direction with a greater focus on the sword bearer. It looks like you want to keep a bunch of perks of the genius character.

The dual classing really wont take effect until your new skill level surpasses the old skill level according to the rules. http://www.palladiumbooks.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=226%3Adual-occs&catid=58&Itemid=200 If your using both skill levels right now - Your using house rules.

Of course that reference is for http://www.palladiumbooks.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=226%3Adual-occs&catid=58&Itemid=200

More can be found at the FAQ...http://www.palladiumbooks.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=226%3Adual-occs&catid=58&Itemid=200


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Unread postPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 1:42 am
  

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Knight

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Tor wrote:
syntheticlife4m wrote:
My main concern was fear of Munchkinism
That's in the mind of players (and moreso GMs' paranoia) than it is in the stats of a character.

Keep in mind guys like Moloch seem to be able to use Greatest Artifacts without even becoming Sword Bearers or having to burn off their PPE, too.

I don't get the rage about people re-rolling stats until they're awesome. Even a human with 30 in everything is probably inferior to a Nightbane or a Guardian or a Dragon. Even high-attribute folk can die. Sometimes it's better to get beaten up and ignored than perceived as a serious threat by your enemies.


If you can reroll forever until you get what you want, what's the point of rolling? Just pick your stats.

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Mark Hall wrote:
Y'all seem to assume that Palladium books are written with the same exacting precision with which they are analyzed. I think that is... ambitious.

Talk from the Edge: Operation Dead Lift, Operation Reload, Operation Human Devil, Operation Handshake, Operation Windfall 1, Operation Windfall 2, Operation Sniper Wolf, Operation Natural 20


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Unread postPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:37 am
  

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Knight

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Alrik Vas wrote:
Tor wrote:
syntheticlife4m wrote:
My main concern was fear of Munchkinism
That's in the mind of players (and moreso GMs' paranoia) than it is in the stats of a character.

Keep in mind guys like Moloch seem to be able to use Greatest Artifacts without even becoming Sword Bearers or having to burn off their PPE, too.

I don't get the rage about people re-rolling stats until they're awesome. Even a human with 30 in everything is probably inferior to a Nightbane or a Guardian or a Dragon. Even high-attribute folk can die. Sometimes it's better to get beaten up and ignored than perceived as a serious threat by your enemies.


If you can reroll forever until you get what you want, what's the point of rolling? Just pick your stats.
also plays to the social contract of RPGs.
If you can make your stats what ever you want and ignore restrictions then whats the point of the rest of the party? An audience for your mental masturbation?

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Unread postPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 7:31 pm
  

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Palladin

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i assign stats for npcs but reccomend rolling stats for player characters.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 2:09 am
  

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Damian Magecraft wrote:
also plays to the social contract of RPGs. If you can make your stats what ever you want and ignore restrictions then whats the point of the rest of the party?
Making your stats what you like (picking the dice rolled for permanent things, as opposed to stuff like combat rolls) doesn't automatically make the rest of the party useless. If another party member had every single attribute lower than another party member, the weaker character could still be more useful in some aspects due to some skills or abilities outside of attributes.

Also: not everyone is going to pick 30 in everything if they ignore rolling. I might opt to give a character 3 in everything, for example.

Damian Magecraft wrote:
An audience for your mental masturbation?
Or participants in an epic who find things to do in spite of inferiorities. Look at the wide variety of characters in the Wheel of Time, many of them loveable and memorable even though some are completely outclassed by other characters in pretty much every single way, yet they're important parts.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 8:58 pm
  

Champion

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syntheticlife4m wrote:
Yeah, like I said Munchkin. He kept re-rolling sets of the 8 rolls until he got max rolls for most of the skills, then pretty much went all out on the Physical skills. He managed to buy extra past his P.P.E. because he also spent some I.S.P. to burn. So he basically used some of my cheat sheet (what he liked), but ignored the rest of the limitations on the cheat sheet, because he felt it wasn't fair for him to lose P.P.E., but okay to spend the I.S.P. anyway - which also irked me.


I'll never get that sort of behavior. Why do these people even bother to roll the dice when they're just going to give themselves the stats they want anyway?

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Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 9:04 pm
  

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Palladin

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Rallan wrote:
syntheticlife4m wrote:
Yeah, like I said Munchkin. He kept re-rolling sets of the 8 rolls until he got max rolls for most of the skills, then pretty much went all out on the Physical skills. He managed to buy extra past his P.P.E. because he also spent some I.S.P. to burn. So he basically used some of my cheat sheet (what he liked), but ignored the rest of the limitations on the cheat sheet, because he felt it wasn't fair for him to lose P.P.E., but okay to spend the I.S.P. anyway - which also irked me.


I'll never get that sort of behavior. Why do these people even bother to roll the dice when they're just going to give themselves the stats they want anyway?


Because when someone goes 'How did you get those kinds of stats?!' they can legitimately respond 'dude I rolled them!' and therefor have it not be a direct lie even as they omit that sure they rolled it but they rolled about 50 times or more before they got that set of dice rolls. It's a psychological issue, they want the high numbers but rather than just go 'oh I just picked them' and deal with the generally negative response it generates from many they constantly reroll dice until they get enough favorable rolls to honestly say they rolled things up.

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Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.

'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin

It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 3:11 am
  

Champion

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Nightmask wrote:
Rallan wrote:
syntheticlife4m wrote:
Yeah, like I said Munchkin. He kept re-rolling sets of the 8 rolls until he got max rolls for most of the skills, then pretty much went all out on the Physical skills. He managed to buy extra past his P.P.E. because he also spent some I.S.P. to burn. So he basically used some of my cheat sheet (what he liked), but ignored the rest of the limitations on the cheat sheet, because he felt it wasn't fair for him to lose P.P.E., but okay to spend the I.S.P. anyway - which also irked me.


I'll never get that sort of behavior. Why do these people even bother to roll the dice when they're just going to give themselves the stats they want anyway?


Because when someone goes 'How did you get those kinds of stats?!' they can legitimately respond 'dude I rolled them!' and therefor have it not be a direct lie even as they omit that sure they rolled it but they rolled about 50 times or more before they got that set of dice rolls. It's a psychological issue, they want the high numbers but rather than just go 'oh I just picked them' and deal with the generally negative response it generates from many they constantly reroll dice until they get enough favorable rolls to honestly say they rolled things up.


I get the feeling that it's more about deceiving themselves than anything else.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 6:46 pm
  

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Palladin

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It's too bad the player went and abused this idea btw, it's quite an interesting idea otherwise. However given the Natural and Genius OCC can access pretty much any skill in becoming a Sword Bearer they'd likely have no reason to stop progressing as the Natural in general since it kind of absorbs the other OCC. The main thing for the Sword Bearer is the weapon after all, and a few set bonuses that can be easily added to the Natural and just treat it as the character having to progress throughout all those levels it previously reached in order to reflect properly mastering use of the weapon.

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Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.

'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin

It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 5:46 pm
  

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Palladin

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Why would becoming a Bearer prevent advancement as a Natural? If you were a Natural first you would have already burnt off the PPE and learned the abilities, so you'd still have them and they'd continue to advance.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 8:38 pm
  

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Palladin

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Rallan wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
Rallan wrote:
syntheticlife4m wrote:
Yeah, like I said Munchkin. He kept re-rolling sets of the 8 rolls until he got max rolls for most of the skills, then pretty much went all out on the Physical skills. He managed to buy extra past his P.P.E. because he also spent some I.S.P. to burn. So he basically used some of my cheat sheet (what he liked), but ignored the rest of the limitations on the cheat sheet, because he felt it wasn't fair for him to lose P.P.E., but okay to spend the I.S.P. anyway - which also irked me.


I'll never get that sort of behavior. Why do these people even bother to roll the dice when they're just going to give themselves the stats they want anyway?


Because when someone goes 'How did you get those kinds of stats?!' they can legitimately respond 'dude I rolled them!' and therefor have it not be a direct lie even as they omit that sure they rolled it but they rolled about 50 times or more before they got that set of dice rolls. It's a psychological issue, they want the high numbers but rather than just go 'oh I just picked them' and deal with the generally negative response it generates from many they constantly reroll dice until they get enough favorable rolls to honestly say they rolled things up.


I get the feeling that it's more about deceiving themselves than anything else.


Well self-deception is likely part of it too yes. They want to feel legitimate as much as they want everyone else thinking them legitimate, but since they want the acceptance deceiving others is certainly a key element of it.

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Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.

'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin

It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 7:49 am
  

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Palladin

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It's not exactly self-deception. Some people just don't like to lie, and may get a thrill out of making dishonest statements ("I rolled it up!") which are technically true.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 8:04 am
  

Knight

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What are the abilities of the Sword Bearer?

Any ideas for Magic weapons and idems?


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Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 10:17 am
  

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Palladin

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gaby wrote:
What are the abilities of the Sword Bearer?

Any ideas for Magic weapons and idems?


Their abilities are mainly what they get from the weapon, which varies depending on the weapon and level of power the weapon has. It's also not just a weapon-based OCC, there are also armors that reside under the heading of availability to Sword Bearers (probably odds are good that someone who has the armor likely also has a minor or intermediate level weapon as well, since it's possible to have multiple artifacts bonded to you).

_________________
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.

'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin

It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:51 pm
  

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Monk

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Natural and Genius class is a PCC NM. Get is right.

Tor...duh cause it is a PCC. Besides that, there are no canon provisions in NB for a char to change their class. :roll:

The swordbearer class does not have any abilities but what the Artifact Weapon gives them.

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Q's on this board need canon answers first for the question that was asked. Then you can post your own house rules listed as your house rules.
I say what the classes ARE even if the books mislabel them, so get over it.

Mostly I write out exactly what I mean, then sometimes get even more finicky.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:31 am
  

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Palladin

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drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Natural and Genius class is a PCC NM. Get is right.

Tor...duh cause it is a PCC. Besides that, there are no canon provisions in NB for a char to change their class. :roll:

The swordbearer class does not have any abilities but what the Artifact Weapon gives them.


Just have to fit in another of your 'No! You can't treat a psychic as anything but a a brain-damaged sort unable to be anything else!' views I see.

I also apparently need to point out since you apparently didn't read the entire thread particularly the starting post that someone ELSE had allowed someone to have both the Natural and Genius class AND the Sword-Bearer class (of which there's ZERO to justify any argument that such isn't possible, the artifact can bond with anyone it finds suitable and nothing about that is incompatible with the Natural and Genius). Which means they'd already allowed for the combination and were simply asking for feedback regarding what seemed the most reasonable way to make the combination happen.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 7:58 pm
  

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Psions can learn new skills but they need to be worked into their current class. Never said that they couldn't learn new skills.

All I said was while they are a PCC they have to stay that PCC while they are still defined by their powers.

Yes, this will mean that PLAYERS need bend to the rules and be creative with their skill selection to fill out skills to meet the requirements of their "day Job".
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As to the situation, it would be a Nat./Gen. with a greatest artifact weapon, nothing more. Not a Fusion class of the N/G PCC & the SB OCC. If following canon.

If ignoring canon. When a N/G PCC changed their class to the SB class because they bonded with a greatest artifact weapon, the bonding would not effect the N/G abilities because the PPE has already been burned off to purchase said abilities. Yes, the Artifact weapon would take what it could of the remaining Base PPE as per the SB class text.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:08 pm
  

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drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Psions can learn new skills but they need to be worked into their current class. Never said that they couldn't learn new skills.

All I said was while they are a PCC they have to stay that PCC while they are still defined by their powers.

Yes, this will mean that PLAYERS need bend to the rules and be creative with their skill selection to fill out skills to meet the requirements of their "day Job".
-------------
As to the situation, it would be a Nat./Gen. with a greatest artifact weapon, nothing more. Not a Fusion class of the N/G PCC & the SB OCC. If following canon.

If ignoring canon. When a N/G PCC changed their class to the SB class because they bonded with a greatest artifact weapon, the bonding would not effect the N/G abilities because the PPE has already been burned off to purchase said abilities. Yes, the Artifact weapon would take what it could of the remaining Base PPE as per the SB class text.


Which isn't any different from what I said, other than since bonding with an artifact weapon is shown to give some minor bonuses they should be added to the Natural/Genius since those would be part and parcel with acquiring the weapon and bonding with it.

_________________
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.

'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin

It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 2:02 pm
  

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Comment: If you have something to say, back it up with thoughts and reasons. Simply posting to agree or disagree tends to be a waste.
It's too bad we can't compel Moloch to merge with his own Greatest Artifact, that'd cripple him.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
they are a PCC they have to stay that PCC while they are still defined by their powers.
Where's it say PCCs as a whole can't change class?

http://palladiumbooks.com/index.php?opt ... Itemid=200
http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/cutt ... alocc.html
"On the "cutting room floor," you will find things that went out of print, were forgotten or left out for other reasons, along with general errata and excluded material from various books."

The errata is for PF yet it mentions nothing about no new OCCs if a PCC. It even mentions that you can switch to a new psychic class.

PF itself individually says for its 4 PCCs (Sensitive/Healer/Mystic/MindMage) that it isn't possible, as opposed to saving space and saying 'not possible for any PCC', which means that for subsequent PCCs in later PF sourcebooks (or PCCs in other systems) that the limitation does not apply unless specifically reiterated for them.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
there are no canon provisions in NB for a char to change their class. :roll:
There are rules in the original PRPG, Robotech, the official online errata for PF2nd Omissions, I think also one of the PF sourcebooks. It being a Megaversal game system, these rules apply to Nightbane too. Rules don't have to be in the home system for them to apply.

A good example of this would be the psionics that demons have in Mystic China. It's a N&SS sourcebook and there are no psionics in any N&SS books. The only way to know the stats of the demons' abilities is to have another main book which has that.

Much like Nightbane people might consult Rifts or PF or some other system that could have rules for surviving cold.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
The swordbearer class does not have any abilities but what the Artifact Weapon gives them.
I dunno, skills are a kind of ability and not all their OCC skills from from the artifact. Plus they could have abilities from their species (anything preventing a Dwarf from becoming a Bearer?) or previous or subsequent OCCs (or PCCs).

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Unread postPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 4:41 pm
  

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Tor wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
there are no canon provisions in NB for a char to change their class. :roll:
There are rules in the original PRPG, Robotech, the official online errata for PF2nd Omissions, I think also one of the PF sourcebooks. It being a Megaversal game system, these rules apply to Nightbane too. Rules don't have to be in the home system for them to apply.

A good example of this would be the psionics that demons have in Mystic China. It's a N&SS sourcebook and there are no psionics in any N&SS books. The only way to know the stats of the demons' abilities is to have another main book which has that.

Much like Nightbane people might consult Rifts or PF or some other system that could have rules for surviving cold.

Exactly what I said.
The published canon rules in PF:HS are only relevent in other settings if the game's GM imports them to the game's setting. Even then those rules only cover OCC's. They do not cover RCC's, nor PCC's.
(rifts note: Psychi classes are PCC's even if they are labeled as OCC (as of RUE) for the newbs to Rifts. So are not covered by the changing class rules in PF:HS.)
[Psychic occupational Char Class...PCC]
The ones posted at the PB site are only optional, because they have not yet been Published.

Tor wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
The swordbearer class does not have any abilities but what the Artifact Weapon gives them.
I dunno, skills are a kind of ability and not all their OCC skills from from the artifact. Plus they could have abilities from their species (anything preventing a Dwarf from becoming a Bearer?) or previous or subsequent OCCs (or PCCs).

*yawns* skills are skill not abilities.
Yes, the word usage does matter when talking about a technical matter. So please use the words correctly. Not trying to make connections that are not there if the words are used correctly.
Thus my wording.

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Q's on this board need canon answers first for the question that was asked. Then you can post your own house rules listed as your house rules.
I say what the classes ARE even if the books mislabel them, so get over it.

Mostly I write out exactly what I mean, then sometimes get even more finicky.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 5:37 pm
  

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drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
The published canon rules in PF:HS are only relevent in other settings if the game's GM imports them to the game's setting.
The same is true of PF world books, or even any rules within the main book itself. ALL rules are only relevant if GMs opt to use them.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Even then those rules only cover OCC's. They do not cover RCC's, nor PCC's.
PCCs are a form of OCC. This has been clarified before, from multiple locations from in the main book of PF2nd:
*page 8 describes page 336 as "experience tables by OCC" not "OCC or PCC" or "by class"
*page 16 says "all others" get d6 sdc, yet many races refer to SDC as 'plus those gained by OCC'. Psychics obviously still get the d6, because PCCs are OCCs.
*Page 62 lists 'Psychics' under the 'List of OCCs'
*page 155 left says "PCCS ... characters of other OCCs". The use of 'other' means that they are part of the same group, that PCC is part of OCC. Otherwise it would have said 'characters of OCCs' or 'characters of other classes'.
*page 155 right says "master psionic characters, including all psychics OCCs or PCCs, need to roll a 10". This is clearly presenting PCC as being short for "psychic OCC". The term "psychic character class" can't mean anything else, like merely being an OCC with psychic abilities, because we know full well that classes like these are not automatically master psionics. Or is the argument that witches whose gift of power includes sixth sense also save as masters on top of their +1 vs psi?
*p157 "Psychic Sensitive PCC ... OCC Skills ... OCC Related Skills"
*p158/9 "Psi-Healer PCC ... OCC Skills ... OCC Related Skills"
*p160 "Psi-Mystic PCC ... OCC Skills ... OCC Related Skills"
*p162 "Mind Mage PCC ... OCC Skills ... OCC Related Skills"
*p289 (humans) + p291 (elves) "Occupational Characters Classes (OCCs and PCCs)"
*p293 dwarves "OCC Skill notes" adds bonus "in addition to OCC bonuses". You seriously taking this to mean that Dwarves with a PCC don't get these? Do you think that PCCs are unavailable to dwarves in spite of their standard psionics just because the initials aren't used here like for Humans/Elves?
*p300 "OCCs available to Goblins: limited to assassin .. and the occasional psychic".
*p308 "OCCs available to Trolls: any except psychic PCCs"

Also an interesting tidbit to consider. If one were to accept your proposal that PCCs are not OCCs, then someone with one of the 4 PCCs from the main book may actually use the multiple OCC rules to select an OCC. This is because, if one accepts your proposal, this is not a new/multiple OCC, but rather their FIRST and only OCC.

Since we know the knew class can be in the 'psychic' category, we know they are OCCs and thus can be switched to, or from.

The 'no multiple OCCs possible' disclaimer in PF2 trumps this, of course, but only for the PF2 version of them. People who are classic PRPG-style Mind Mages and Healers can most definitely still multi-class.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
(rifts note: Psychi classes are PCC's even if they are labeled as OCC (as of RUE) for the newbs to Rifts.
That's fine, because they can be both simultaneously. There is no distinction. PCCs are a form of OCC focused on psionics, which is why it is okay to describe them as either.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
So are not covered by the changing class rules in PF:HS. [Psychic occupational Char Class...PCC]
PF2ndWB3pg10 does not explicitly forbid changing PCCs, and it applies to them because PCCs are OCCs, as I have established above in numerous places.
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
The ones posted at the PB site are only optional, because they have not yet been Published.
Incorrect. They are as optional as any of the rules in the core book. They are fully canonical and endorsed by KS in the same fashion that the Russian Gods in the Rifter as as official as anything in Mystic Russia. Or the missing HP/SDC/PPE of Demon Lords in Nightlands. Being accidentally left out due to mistake or space limitations doesn't make something non-canonical if the company explicitly presents it as canon, which has been done with the OCC rules.

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