Possession vs Mind Control with Nightbane

[Kinghawke]

Nightbane are immune to ALL forms of Mind Control (magical, psionic, drugs, etc). but, are they immune to Possession?

the rules state that they are immune to mind control, even from vampires, yet several Talents state that the particular talent being viewed makes them immune to vampire changing them or mind controlling them.

my ultimate question is: Can Nightbane be Possessed by astral beings or while they're "out" astrally?

[Nekira Sudacne]

Possession is a form of mind control, as in it's littearlly a method of controling their minds by inhabiting their body. distinct, but i'd still go with "immune"

[The Beast]

Possession is a form of mind control, as in it's littearlly a method of controling their minds by inhabiting their body. distinct, but i'd still go with "immune"

As would I.

[Tor]

If possession were mind control, bonuses to save vs mind control would also apply versus possession. I view them as different things. I think possession is the outside mind controlling the body directly and bypassing the mind, whereas mind control is utilizing the mind and influencing it. Someone possessed isn't being mind controlled at all, the mind isn't in control anymore, so there's no need to control it.

[Kinghawke]

If possession were mind control, bonuses to save vs mind control would also apply versus possession. I view them as different things. I think possession is the outside mind controlling the body directly and bypassing the mind, whereas mind control is utilizing the mind and influencing it. Someone possessed isn't being mind controlled at all, the mind isn't in control anymore, so there's no need to control it.

fair point.

[Nekira Sudacne]

If possession were mind control, bonuses to save vs mind control would also apply versus possession. I view them as different things. I think possession is the outside mind controlling the body directly and bypassing the mind, whereas mind control is utilizing the mind and influencing it. Someone possessed isn't being mind controlled at all, the mind isn't in control anymore, so there's no need to control it.

Not necessarily. Lets say you have a creature immune to sleep (just for example). it dosn't matter if you try to put it to sleep through tranquilizers, induce healing or a sleeping poition, none of them would work, dispite all of them having different saves.

Effects can have different mechanisms for the same effects. After all, why does "impervious to mind control" exsit, and not "Immune to psionics"? Simple, not all forms of mind control are psionic in nature.

Take it another way, a creature "Immune to psionics" would be immune to the power mentally possess others, but not a possessing entity.

So we can see that saves can actually be subdivided and a lot of cross applications. So Possession can be a form of Mind Control and still have independant save bonus's, because it's possible to increase your save vs possession indepenant of your save vs psionics or magic that applies to either possessing method. and it's possible to get a bonus to all forms of mind control regardless of source, including possession.

[eliakon]

How is it mind controll though if your controlling the body that may or may not have a mind (possession is a huge danger of astral travel and the like). I would say its more of a seperate but close thing. but thats my two cents worth.

[Soldier of Od]

Nightbane are immune to ALL forms of Mind Control (magical, psionic, drugs, etc). but, are they immune to Possession?

the rules state that they are immune to mind control, even from vampires, yet several Talents state that the particular talent being viewed makes them immune to vampire changing them or mind controlling them.

my ultimate question is: Can Nightbane be Possessed by astral beings or while they're "out" astrally?

I think it is open to question, but I have to go with Elaikon above and say that if a nightbane was 'absent' from his body then the possessing force is not controlling his mind in any way, just inhabiting a mindless body, and so would be able to do so easily.

However, as Nightbane cannot have psychic abilities, they cannot enter the astral plane using astral projection. the nightbane talent that allows entry into the astral plane involves turning the whole body of the nightbane into an astral forming, leaving no body behind.

[Soldier of Od]

Nightbane are immune to ALL forms of Mind Control (magical, psionic, drugs, etc). but, are they immune to Possession?

the rules state that they are immune to mind control, even from vampires, yet several Talents state that the particular talent being viewed makes them immune to vampire changing them or mind controlling them.

my ultimate question is: Can Nightbane be Possessed by astral beings or while they're "out" astrally?

I think it is open to question, but I have to go with Elaikon above and say that if a nightbane was 'absent' from his body then the possessing force is not controlling his mind in any way, just inhabiting a mindless body, and so would be able to do so easily.

However, as Nightbane cannot have psychic abilities, they cannot enter the astral plane using astral projection. the nightbane talent that allows entry into the astral plane involves turning the whole body of the nightbane into an astral forming, leaving no body behind.

Oh yeah, there's a magic spell astral projection that a nightbane sorcerer could have. Stupid to forget that. So, I go with yes, their bodies can be possessed while the mind is absent.

[Kinghawke]

Nightbane are immune to ALL forms of Mind Control (magical, psionic, drugs, etc). but, are they immune to Possession?

the rules state that they are immune to mind control, even from vampires, yet several Talents state that the particular talent being viewed makes them immune to vampire changing them or mind controlling them.

my ultimate question is: Can Nightbane be Possessed by astral beings or while they're "out" astrally?

I think it is open to question, but I have to go with Elaikon above and say that if a nightbane was 'absent' from his body then the possessing force is not controlling his mind in any way, just inhabiting a mindless body, and so would be able to do so easily.

However, as Nightbane cannot have psychic abilities, they cannot enter the astral plane using astral projection. the nightbane talent that allows entry into the astral plane involves turning the whole body of the nightbane into an astral forming, leaving no body behind.

Oh yeah, there's a magic spell astral projection that a nightbane sorcerer could have. Stupid to forget that. So, I go with yes, their bodies can be possessed while the mind is absent.

people have been possessed while in their bodies, but then their minds are trapped. is that possible for Nightbane while their minds are present?

[eliakon]

Nightbane are immune to ALL forms of Mind Control (magical, psionic, drugs, etc). but, are they immune to Possession?

the rules state that they are immune to mind control, even from vampires, yet several Talents state that the particular talent being viewed makes them immune to vampire changing them or mind controlling them.

my ultimate question is: Can Nightbane be Possessed by astral beings or while they're "out" astrally?

I think it is open to question, but I have to go with Elaikon above and say that if a nightbane was 'absent' from his body then the possessing force is not controlling his mind in any way, just inhabiting a mindless body, and so would be able to do so easily.

However, as Nightbane cannot have psychic abilities, they cannot enter the astral plane using astral projection. the nightbane talent that allows entry into the astral plane involves turning the whole body of the nightbane into an astral forming, leaving no body behind.

Oh yeah, there's a magic spell astral projection that a nightbane sorcerer could have. Stupid to forget that. So, I go with yes, their bodies can be possessed while the mind is absent.

people have been possessed while in their bodies, but then their minds are trapped. is that possible for Nightbane while their minds are present?

Sure why not? your not controlling the mind, your just sayin "I'm sorry but I'll drive thank you" its not mind control its body control.....

[Warwolf]

I just wanted to chime in and say that you guys are awesome. Just when I think I've covered most of the burning questions in past or upcoming errata, you all find a new puzzle for me to mull over. Too bad I'm not a liberty to write more until I get this darned thesis done. Of course, I'll be making note of this question to answer at a later date... Keep at it folks.

[Tor]

Lets say you have a creature immune to sleep (just for example). it dosn't matter if you try to put it to sleep through tranquilizers, induce healing or a sleeping poition, none of them would work, dispite all of them having different saves.

I understand the bit about the saving throws but I don't see why possession should be assumed to be a form of mind control. A body can be controlled and moved in ways besides controlling someone's mind to choose to do it.

[The Beast]

If you want to possess a nightbane, use a thin one from Baalgor Wastelands.

[Kinghawke]

I agree about the thin ones, but question about mind control:

Nightbane Survival Guide:
Mineral Table II Note: all mineral Morphus forms makes the character impervious to the vampire's bite & mind control.
Undead Table notes: immune to the bite & mind control of vampires & other undead creatures

why does it say that, if Nightbane are already immune to all forms of mind control & to the vampire's slow bite?
also, if they are immune to all forms of transformations: are they immune from other Nightbanes' Taint & Gorgon's Touch?

[Nightmask]

I agree about the thin ones, but question about mind control:

Nightbane Survival Guide:
Mineral Table II Note: all mineral Morphus forms makes the character impervious to the vampire's bite & mind control.
Undead Table notes: immune to the bite & mind control of vampires & other undead creatures

why does it say that, if Nightbane are already immune to all forms of mind control & to the vampire's slow bite?
also, if they are immune to all forms of transformations: are they immune from other Nightbanes' Taint & Gorgon's Touch?

Whoever wrote the guide apparently needed a refresher on natural nightbane abilities perhaps, it happens. DEM has some problems with his Ultimate Powers Book for the Classic Marvel RPG because he assumed some things about the rules because he skimmed the rule books. I assume such discrepancies can be seen to be within the same kind of human error.

[drewkitty ~..~]

That the current PB writers do not resuerch into something before they start writing "new rules" for stuff that already has rules that cover that something is one of the things I find stupid. And that it gets past whoever is editing the books for production.

[Tor]

Didn't this happen to Nightbane in Dark Conversions? Maybe it's just Nightbane in particular that new authors assume they know everything about.

Much as I love TTGD, I don't see why Nightbane lack Nemeses. Since Nemeses are not necessarily Dopplegangers, I don't see why a Nightbane's lack of Doppleganger should equate also to a lack of Nemesis. Or is this merely coincidence?

[Kinghawke]

Didn't this happen to Nightbane in Dark Conversions? Maybe it's just Nightbane in particular that new authors assume they know everything about.

Much as I love TTGD, I don't see why Nightbane lack Nemeses. Since Nemeses are not necessarily Dopplegangers, I don't see why a Nightbane's lack of Doppleganger should equate also to a lack of Nemesis. Or is this merely coincidence?

I can see the Nemesis being a Nightbane potential's double. they don't have doppelgangers! humans have doppelgangers. nightbane still have doubles. just they are nemesis.

[Tor]

Nemeses aren't doubles, they're opposition