Nightbane World Book 4: Shadows of Light

[Ronin78]

What is with this book. I see it on Rpgnow.com, But not in the Palladium store.
Nightbane World Book 4: Shadows of Light.

[jaymz]

It has officially been discontinued and for all intents and purposes disowned

[Ronin78]

Well that Sucks. I'm a huge fan of the author. Own most his other works. Never even noticed this book before till I noticed it on RPGnow.com.

[jaymz]

If you search you may be able to still find a thread about the why. Myself, eh, I have the book so i don;t care why they discontinued it

[Shawn Merrow]

If you search you may be able to still find a thread about the why. Myself, eh, I have the book so i don;t care why they discontinued it

Its at the top of this section.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Short answer: Kevin disagreed with some of the implied metaphysics, also, it was extremely unpopular with fans of nightbane.

[The Dark Elf]

IMHO the book doesnt set the world alight but it IS useful. Like all RPG books you'll use some stuff and dislike others. discontinuing it in a line with so little sourcebooks wasnt needed. If you can get a second hand copy do so.

[Ronin78]

IMHO the book doesnt set the world alight but it IS useful. Like all RPG books you'll use some stuff and dislike others. discontinuing it in a line with so little sourcebooks wasnt needed. If you can get a second hand copy do so.

I'm working on it. not paying this for it though.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss? ... s+of+Light

[Antimony]

IMHO the book doesnt set the world alight but it IS useful. Like all RPG books you'll use some stuff and dislike others. discontinuing it in a line with so little sourcebooks wasnt needed. If you can get a second hand copy do so.

I'm working on it. not paying this for it though.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss? ... s+of+Light

Shadows of Light can be found here too, if you don't mind pdfs.

[Josh Hilden]

I really really liked, and still do like, Shadows of Light despite some editing issues.

[Ronin78]

IMHO the book doesnt set the world alight but it IS useful. Like all RPG books you'll use some stuff and dislike others. discontinuing it in a line with so little sourcebooks wasnt needed. If you can get a second hand copy do so.

I'm working on it. not paying this for it though.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss? ... s+of+Light

Shadows of Light can be found here too, if you don't mind pdfs.

I dont mind a PDF, But I want a dead tree. I'll find one. Just sad that I cant buy one from Palladium directly.

[MurderCityDisciple]

The whole super angelic beings thing kinda put me off....other than that, the book has merit. The angel thing is a big chunk of the book though.

[Snake Eyes]

I have a pdf copy just for completeness sake.......though if if i ever do run a game this book will be omitted.......

[Soldier of Od]

Even if you don't like the Athanatos or the Strigoi, the fleshing out of the Nocturnes and the Lightbringers alone is totally worth buying the book. Plus the O.C.C.s.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I don't think Anyone, even Kevin, have claimed there was nothing worthwhile or interesting inside of the book. It was simply decided the book as a whole didn't fit the tone they were going for in Nightbane.

[Incriptus]

Dont like the Athanatos: Pages 23-42
Neutral on Tophet: 43-57
Happy with the Nocturnes: 58-66
Happy with the Lightbringers: 66-73
Big fan of the Pandora Project: 74-93
Fairly happy with the extra classes: 93-102
Uninterested in the Strigoi: 102-105
Regurgiation of Vampire Intellegences: 105-110
Pittsburgh looked like an OK place: 111-138 & 150-152
I never actually read the adventure: 139-149

All in all I think I give the book a decent score. With the ADA being the source of the bulk of my nightbane interest bringing up the average signifigantly. I haven't actually read/used any of the other sections recently . . . just pulled out the book to help determine how much of the book was dedicated to the two uninspired portions [Athanathos & Strigoi] and it only accounted for about 1/4th the book.

[The Beast]

I disliked much more,
I like the athanatoi
I like the pandora project
I like the strigoi
Dislike the rest of the book.

What was that?

[Damian Magecraft]

Short answer: Kevin disagreed with some of the implied metaphysics, also, it was extremely unpopular with fans of nightbane.

Official line is the books sales did not merit a continuation of the print run.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Short answer: Kevin disagreed with some of the implied metaphysics, also, it was extremely unpopular with fans of nightbane.

Official line is the books sales did not merit a continuation of the print run.

yes, if it had sold well Kevin would have let it slide, however Nightbane survival guide and the planned followup are clearly taking the setting in a different direction. Poor sales have never caused palladium to strike a book from continuity before. and they've had some flops.

[Josh Hilden]

I am sure sluggish sales had something to do with it, but I doubt that is 100% percent of the answer. I would say direction changes had just as much if not more to do with it.

Meh.

I really like the book, but I understand the strategy.

[The Dark Elf]

You dont go back on something being a canon part of the line due to sales. Whatever the cause it is in bad taste and as a fan, not needed.

[Tor]

The whole super angelic beings thing kinda put me off....

Yet the Guardians in the main book and angelic morphi and necrophim are fine?

It has officially been discontinued and for all intents and purposes disowned

Guess it joins the ranks of Manhunter, TMNT... am I missing anything?

You dont go back on something being a canon part of the line due to sales. Whatever the cause it is in bad taste and as a fan, not needed.

Agreed. Once canon, always canon, IMO.

That's why I still hang on to Palladium RPG 1st Ed and I get an evil Juggernaut Of course I treat the PRPG world and the PFRPG2 worlds as distinct similar worlds with the different versions of the gods being different characters. That first Thoth has nothing about being Xy so he can have different origins

[Nekira Sudacne]

There is a large difference with Manhunter and TMNT though. Those are other companie's IP that Palladium no longer holds the licence to. It can't do anything with them if it wanted to. Palladium owns Shadows of Light, and its decided it's not worth using anymore.

[Tor]

Hm, so basically, when we keep SoL canon circulating in games, we're sticking it to Palladium, but when we keep MH/TMNT canon circulating, we're sticking it to other companies like whoever made MH and whoever Laird sold the TMNT rights to.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Hm, so basically, when we keep SoL canon circulating in games, we're sticking it to Palladium, but when we keep MH/TMNT canon circulating, we're sticking it to other companies like whoever made MH and whoever Laird sold the TMNT rights to.

I'm not sure how using discontinued material is "sticking it" to anyone.

[Tor]

It counteracts efforts to deny the past. Kind of like making an effort to remember Venus de Milo, the 5th turtle

[Nekira Sudacne]

It counteracts efforts to deny the past. Kind of like making an effort to remember Venus de Milo, the 5th turtle

I don't see it as palladium covering their ears and going "LALALALAWENEVERPRINTEDTHATBOOK", it's more "This book dosn't fit in the direction we want to go with the setting. true, there are a few bits that arn't bad, but overall it's just not worth keeping the book when so much isn't applicable to what we want to do"

[Ronin78]

Not sure Nightbane is going in any direction at the moment. So its hard for me to imagine that "another direction" for a product line would benefit from removing any kind of material.When was the last book released? I would love to be a bigger fan of the game, If it had material for me to buy I would buy it.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Not sure Nightbane is going in any direction at the moment. So its hard for me to imagine that "another direction" for a product line would benefit from removing any kind of material.When was the last book released? I would love to be a bigger fan of the game, If it had material for me to buy I would buy it.

Nightbane Survival Guide was in 2009, and Warwolf (co-author on it) is working on Dark Designs. And from what i've heard, part of the process behind survival guide behind the scenes was the creation of a nightbane guideline setting metaphysical mechanics and plot details to be revealed in future books (So any future authors knows roughly where things are going)

[Ronin78]

Well here is hoping. I would love to see more material.

[Ronin78]

On another note-

I have never seen Shadows of Light-but it did get a print run then-right?

Yes. Most the copies I can find are $45 - $60.
The PDF is still available on rpgnow.com too

[Damian Magecraft]

On another note-

I have never seen Shadows of Light-but it did get a print run then-right?

Yes. Most the copies I can find are $45 - $60.
The PDF is still available on rpgnow.com too

lucky you...
Cheapest I ever found was some @$$ fishing for $150.00

[Ronin78]

On another note-

I have never seen Shadows of Light-but it did get a print run then-right?

Yes. Most the copies I can find are $45 - $60.
The PDF is still available on rpgnow.com too

lucky you...
Cheapest I ever found was some @$$ fishing for $150.00

There is 3 on Amazon right now used for $35

[Tor]

"This book dosn't fit in the direction we want to go with the setting. true, there are a few bits that arn't bad, but overall it's just not worth keeping the book when so much isn't applicable to what we want to do"

A lot of stuff in TTGD is probably never going to be referenced again in future books, yet that's no reason to stop printing it, brings a lot of richness to the world.

I really don't get why the book's not applicable or how it shifts the direction. It basically adds optional elements that can add complexity to existing factions, and adds a couple new ones.

i bought the book when it was new. i wasn't that dissapointed. Except in the background.

My central disappointment, much like with Xiticix Invasion, was buying material I already owned from the Rifters =/

[Sir_Spirit]

"This book dosn't fit in the direction we want to go with the setting. true, there are a few bits that arn't bad, but overall it's just not worth keeping the book when so much isn't applicable to what we want to do"

A lot of stuff in TTGD is probably never going to be referenced again in future books, yet that's no reason to stop printing it, brings a lot of richness to the world.

Nah, the spell breathers, who make living spells are their own thing. And making spells up and the proficincies and whatnot are all popular and ok with KS.

i bought the book when it was new. i wasn't that dissapointed. Except in the background.

My central disappointment, much like with Xiticix Invasion, was buying material I already owned from the Rifters =/

This was expanded stuff. More heavily edited, and the author was mad at the combo of lack of contact and the large amount of editing, so he decided to end his professional relationship with PB.

[Sir_Spirit]

The entire book is useful. The Pandora Project psychics are awesome, and make for a unique style of black ops squad that's one faction only. The Lightbringer and Nocturne expansions are also well done.

I like what he did for the Nocturnes. I dislike the Lightbringer stuff because it turns the angelic guys into extremist jerks. This happens so often in fiction that there is a tv tropes page for it. The Knight Templars. Which, perhaps confusingly, is also the name of a new, and in my opinion, unnecessary faction. One that is also obsessed with vampires, but unlike the Lightbringers, isn't given any flak for it. This is utterly hypocritical, IMO, because the Lightbringers are shown as be badwrongevil for it. While the Templars are treated as hip and cool.

As for the Athanatos, we've had one in every Nightbane setting we've ran, and they've fit in well, especially in Nocturne cells. More factions add a lot to the style, especially if they have additional supernatural beings (playable), rather then I'm the evil corporation or magic wielding secret society tropes that every smaller faction has.

I like them too. I would personally ignore the given background, mostly on OOC knowledge grounds.

Psyscape psychics from Rifts work well as additional products of the Pandora Project.

In my opinion it's better to assume that Psyscape has returned, to Nightbane Earth! only they are their to fight the Nightlords, instead of undead.

Summoners, Witches and Shifters from Rifts/PFRPG, since demon summoning fits as the fourth major faction in the Nightlord/Nightbane/Vampire/demon throwdown.

Hmmm, yeah, I like to throw them in as surprise twist. Make the PC's think they are looking at a Night cultist, them maybe a rogue Night cultist, then a true Demon cultist, then Wham! Disguised Minotaur Is Looking to Summon the Old Ones Due to the Weakened Mirrorwall! And the Nightlords Want To Help the PC's Stop Him!

Demon Hunters from Armageddon Unlimited

Combine them with the guys in Mystic China, then have them work for the Knights Templar?
That. Could work, gets em away from vamps.(Let's face it, the guardians can wipe out any vamps in the setting.)

[SittingBull]

If you search you may be able to still find a thread about the why. Myself, eh, I have the book so i don;t care why they discontinued it

Thats mean.

[SittingBull]

IMHO the book doesnt set the world alight but it IS useful. Like all RPG books you'll use some stuff and dislike others. discontinuing it in a line with so little sourcebooks wasnt needed. If you can get a second hand copy do so.

I'm working on it. not paying this for it though.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss? ... s+of+Light

Remember buying from Amazon is not supporting Palladium Books.

[Damian Magecraft]

IMHO the book doesnt set the world alight but it IS useful. Like all RPG books you'll use some stuff and dislike others. discontinuing it in a line with so little sourcebooks wasnt needed. If you can get a second hand copy do so.

I'm working on it. not paying this for it though.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss? ... s+of+Light

Remember buying from Amazon is not supporting Palladium Books.

The book in question is out of print...
The only way to get it in dead tree form is Amazon.

[SittingBull]

IMHO the book doesnt set the world alight but it IS useful. Like all RPG books you'll use some stuff and dislike others. discontinuing it in a line with so little sourcebooks wasnt needed. If you can get a second hand copy do so.

I'm working on it. not paying this for it though.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss? ... s+of+Light

Remember buying from Amazon is not supporting Palladium Books.

The book in question is out of print...
The only way to get it in dead tree form is Amazon.

Very true then. I sit corrected.

[Tor]

Nah, the spell breathers, who make living spells are their own thing. And making spells up and the proficincies and whatnot are all popular and ok with KS.

Isn't that just Rifter material? Or did it make it into some canon publications?

I dislike the Lightbringer stuff because it turns the angelic guys into extremist jerks. This happens so often in fiction that there is a tv tropes page for it.

That was nothing unique to ToS. The dark aspects of Guardians and Lightbringers have been hinted at from the start.

The Knight Templars. Which, perhaps confusingly, is also the name of a new, and in my opinion, unnecessary faction.

Actually weren't the Templars present (albeit in an extremely different way) in Through the Glass Darkly? How they went from a sham cult to vampire slayers confuses me though.

One that is also obsessed with vampires, but unlike the Lightbringers, isn't given any flak for it. This is utterly hypocritical, IMO, because the Lightbringers are shown as be badwrongevil for it. While the Templars are treated as hip and cool.

That's because the Templars are led by humans. The Lightbringers are dominated by the alien Guardians with unknown forces pulling their strings.

I would personally ignore the given background, mostly on OOC knowledge grounds.

Which aspect, the weird Moloch flavour text? I think a lot of that is option since they present it in the context of legends which may or may not be true to varying degrees.

it's better to assume that Psyscape has returned, to Nightbane Earth! only they are their to fight the Nightlords, instead of undead.

Psyscape IS an astral realm, so its creators could pretty easily just create a portal from it to Nightbane Earth (or the Nightlands) just like it did to Rifts.

Disguised Minotaur Is Looking to Summon the Old Ones Due to the Weakened Mirrorwall! And the Nightlords Want To Help the PC's Stop Him!

The dark side to this would be if Moloch was trying to stop the Old Ones, it would be because they only want to RULE the universe whereas he wants to destroy it.

Demon Hunters from Armageddon Unlimited

Combine them with the guys in Mystic China, then have them work for the Knights Templar?
That. Could work, gets em away from vamps.(Let's face it, the guardians can wipe out any vamps in the setting.)

Guardians rely too much on their PPE to win. Vampires have no-cost healing. In long term battles with hit and run situations, vampires will dominate.

We shouldn't underestimate vamps. Keep in mind they're immune to normal weaponry, something guardians are not. If guardians chased vampires into a building, the vampires could set the building on fire or demolish it at no risk to themselves. The guardians might survive by spending huge amounts of PPE on light shields, only to be at the mercy of the fresh vamps when the dust clears. Guardians are really only scary because of that whole 'I can spend 100 PPE to vapourize you in one blow" factor. That's not a gamble to make when your enemies have cover though, or when they (probably) outnumber you. Vampires are also pretty agile and their bonus to dodge may exceed the bonus to strike with such a blast.

I sit corrected.

You weren't really wrong. Buying discontinued books doesn't support Palladium Books directly either

That said: it should be promoted, because if fans know they might be able to potentially resell books, they may be more likely to buy them to begin with. Books that lack resale value are valued less. Books being resold is good for business because it shows the demand for product, even if it loses an initial sale, bidding wars are good.

[SittingBull]

The psionic illusionist looks really nice.

[Tor]

Though since one of the Athanatos OCCs can get all of their abilities (eventually... though it woudl require being a higher level than 15) they seem gipped.

[SittingBull]

You mean the psychic illusionist?

[Sir_Spirit]

Isn't that just Rifter material? Or did it make it into some canon publications?

ummm, well, the living spells are in TTGD(which does make THEM canon) so... ...maybe? Ya know what? I don't actually care(about thespell breather OCC's canonicity*). Sorry!

That was nothing unique to ToS. The dark aspects of Guardians and Lightbringers have been hinted at from the start.

ToS wasn't "hinting" at anything, not that what you've said is an excuse IMO....

Actually weren't the Templars present (albeit in an extremely different way) in Through the Glass Darkly? How they went from a sham cult to vampire slayers confuses me though.

There's no proven canon connection between those 2 groups.

One that is also obsessed with vampires, but unlike the Lightbringers, isn't given any flak for it. This is utterly hypocritical, IMO, because the Lightbringers are shown as be badwrongevil for it. While the Templars are treated as hip and cool.

That's because the Templars are led by humans. The Lightbringers are dominated by the alien Guardians with unknown forces pulling their strings.

No, you have no proof that the Templars aren't secretly lead by aliens or that the Guardians are aliens. The Templars was shown as "cool" for being fanatics while the guardians are amde too look bad for it it by writer's fiat.

Guardians rely too much on their PPE to win.

Nope, doesn't cost them anything to turn into mini-Suns and roast vamps endlessly.

We shouldn't underestimate vamps.

Yes we should. We, not our characters, but WE, can kill them with pee. PEE.

*=I suppose I should point out why, basically if I want them in a campaign then they are canon, and if I didn't, well, then I'd have to actually not like them and I don't not like them, so I don't actually care if they show up or not......

[Tor]

no proven canon connection between those 2 groups.

You mean besides having the same name? Could just be a coincidence, in which case you'd think there'd be some inevitable drama between the two.

you have no proof that the Templars aren't secretly lead by aliens or that the Guardians are aliens. The Templars was shown as "cool" for being fanatics while the guardians are amde too look bad for it it by writer's fiat.

While there's no absolute proof, there are strong implications of the Guardians' alienness (see for example, their shared abilities with the Athanatos, their presence in the Astral Plane) and no implications that the Templars are anything but human.

Also Guardians are clearly more fanatic than the Templars are, based on descriptions. Templars have a lot of anti-vamp abilities but I don't see where they're described as being anywhere near as fanatic.

doesn't cost them anything to turn into mini-Suns and roast vamps endlessly.

Hm true... even at half effectiveness that's still pretty decent. You'd think they'd give, if not a PPE cost, at least some reduction in melee attacks to keep that active, but the description seems to imply they can just turn it on while punching a vamp to death or something. Pretty brutal.

This leads me to question: just what would protect a vampire from sunlight? Full SWAT gear?

We, not our characters, but WE, can kill them with pee. PEE.

Pee isn't water, it has to be relatively pure water to work. Maybe if you don't consume much and water-fast for a day or two it might work. If it does, power to you.

Personally I don't think I would be good or fast enough with aiming for that to be beneficial.

[Sir_Spirit]

You mean besides having the same name? Could just be a coincidence, in which case you'd think there'd be some inevitable drama between the two.

Yeah, using both of them(they both have histories that In My Opinion, aren't really compatible) would be hilarious.

Hm, that reminds me, we need to fit some crystals skulls in here someway....

While there's no absolute proof, there are strong implications of the Guardians' alienness (see for example, their shared abilities with the Athanatos, their presence in the Astral Plane) and no implications that the Templars are anything but human.

I can agree with what you are saying here, but I think that helps my point.
Sure the guardians can be played up as 'possibly alien' which I view as very different that saying ' yeah, and here are their UFO's.'

Also Guardians are clearly more fanatic than the Templars are, based on descriptions. Templars have a lot of anti-vamp abilities but I don't see where they're described as being anywhere near as fanatic.

Exactly.

Hm true... even at half effectiveness that's still pretty decent. You'd think they'd give, if not a PPE cost, at least some reduction in melee attacks to keep that active, but the description seems to imply they can just turn it on while punching a vamp to death or something. Pretty brutal.

Yeah, I tend view them as ignoring vampires unless they 'just happen' to come across or are drawn to them. The Wampires OTOH will have "friendly Liason" who just appears one day, in the middle of their base. That this happens is actually common knowledge among all the leadership of Nocturns. No one knows how they do that, but the liasons are always friendly, helpful and nonjudgemental to the point of being almost creepy. A surprising number of Nocturnes have become somewhat possessive of "their" Lightbringer(who just happen to stumble over spies/double agents with a steady consistancy)....

This leads me to question: just what would protect a vampire from sunlight? Full SWAT gear?

It might need to be a little modified(mostly the helmet and some more neck guards), but something like that maybe.

We, not our characters, but WE, can kill them with pee. PEE.

Pee isn't water, it has to be relatively pure water to work. Maybe if you don't consume much and water-fast for a day or two it might work. If it does, power to you.

Personally I don't think I would be good or fast enough with aiming for that to be beneficial.[/quote]

We know different people.

[Tor]

All I'm saying is you might want to get a Hydrokinetic to make sure the streams don't cross.