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Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:28 am
  

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then I feel, if the nightlords got involved, They would begin to Wipe out Devil/demon territory en Masse, as they once again destroy their dimensions and kill their Deevil Lords.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 11:08 pm
  

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Rappanui wrote:
then I feel, if the nightlords got involved, They would begin to Wipe out Devil/demon territory en Masse, as they once again destroy their dimensions and kill their Deevil Lords.


Can you tell me how this is a bad thing? It would feed into showing the true power of the Nightlords, and make any witness left alive to either give up all hope, or redouble their efforts to get this menace out. It could lead to further, more desparate, research to determine their weakness. Thank you for helping me galvanize my adventure.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:46 pm
  

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Palladium isn't going to sweep the Minion War into every reality, because they don't want to end up with a horrible crossover like Marvel's Infernus, and their main money maker is Rifts. Otherwise we end up with demon ninjas trying to assassinate Nightlords, and PFRPG heroes trying to kill Hounds with swords.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 7:34 pm
  

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Glistam wrote:
Reading this discussion made me think, what if "The Dark" as an entity was just an elaborate Deevil ruse? What if the true power behind the Nightlords were Deevil lords?
I've had this idea before too, if anyone could pull this off it'd be the Sahtalus/Grim combo.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
You kidding? deevils in palladium fantasy have far more widespread and organized cults than demons do. Heck, they outright took over the palladium fantasy world after the war with the old ones (Presumably while Lictalon had taken the army of light to hades to invade there for...reasons never explained), they conquered everything and spread their worship everywhere.

I want to repeat, the deevils successfully conquered palladia, and not only did they not kill off all mortals they made securing their worship about the only thing out of the deal they ever wanted in the first place.
True, they're great at establishing cults, but the point is that they don't seem to value their mortal worshipper's health the same way that Gods (or even Demons) do, since they sacrifice them so readily. I remember it saying somewhere that the actual Lesser Deevils are the only ones whose lives matter (and even then, since they get reborn when they die outside their home, not too highly).

Rappanui wrote:
then I feel, if the nightlords got involved, They would begin to Wipe out Devil/demon territory en Masse, as they once again destroy their dimensions and kill their Deevil Lords.
The demon Netherworld which the Nightlords wiped out erred in leaving an open rift between their home and the nightlands. They were careless. We've no reason to think that the demons of Hades (whichever) would be so foolish. We don't know if the demons who got wiped out had Lords ruling them, for example.

Even if the Hades folk were equally dumb, Deevils wouldn't be. They're much craftier, and it's very difficult to gain access to their realm.

Even if the Nightlords were able to collapse a dimension, that'd only destroy Dyval Prime, the newest dimension of the Dyval multi-dimensional realm, something they've gotten along without before, and could do so again.

That'd be a pretty bad decision too, because it'd **** off a number of the Northern Gods, guys who are pretty much on tier with the Egyptian Light/Dark guys.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:07 pm
  

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There's a difference between not valuing mortal life, and not thinking of it as imporant. Again, if death and destruction were all they wanted like the dark, they had the opportunity to blot palladia out and didn't take it. clearly that's not the goal.

I think your reading it wrong, not so much "Mortals are worthless and need to die", so much as "Mortals are cattle. I feel nothing more about sacrafising a hundred for my ritual than a rancher feels about butchering a hundred of his cows to sell. I have more"

The "I have more" part is important. Humans are cattle the deevils, but still important. sure they think absolutely nothing of culling the herd, but you still have to HAVE a herd. they don't want to run out. if push came to shove they'd actually fight to protect a controled world so long as the calculated value of that herd of humans was worth defending it.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:45 pm
  

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Tor wrote:
Glistam wrote:
Reading this discussion made me think, what if "The Dark" as an entity was just an elaborate Deevil ruse? What if the true power behind the Nightlords were Deevil lords?
I've had this idea before too, if anyone could pull this off it'd be the Sahtalus/Grim combo.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
You kidding? deevils in palladium fantasy have far more widespread and organized cults than demons do. Heck, they outright took over the palladium fantasy world after the war with the old ones (Presumably while Lictalon had taken the army of light to hades to invade there for...reasons never explained), they conquered everything and spread their worship everywhere.

I want to repeat, the deevils successfully conquered palladia, and not only did they not kill off all mortals they made securing their worship about the only thing out of the deal they ever wanted in the first place.
True, they're great at establishing cults, but the point is that they don't seem to value their mortal worshipper's health the same way that Gods (or even Demons) do, since they sacrifice them so readily. I remember it saying somewhere that the actual Lesser Deevils are the only ones whose lives matter (and even then, since they get reborn when they die outside their home, not too highly).

Rappanui wrote:
then I feel, if the nightlords got involved, They would begin to Wipe out Devil/demon territory en Masse, as they once again destroy their dimensions and kill their Deevil Lords.
The demon Netherworld which the Nightlords wiped out erred in leaving an open rift between their home and the nightlands. They were careless. We've no reason to think that the demons of Hades (whichever) would be so foolish. We don't know if the demons who got wiped out had Lords ruling them, for example.

Even if the Hades folk were equally dumb, Deevils wouldn't be. They're much craftier, and it's very difficult to gain access to their realm.

Even if the Nightlords were able to collapse a dimension, that'd only destroy Dyval Prime, the newest dimension of the Dyval multi-dimensional realm, something they've gotten along without before, and could do so again.

That'd be a pretty bad decision too, because it'd **** off a number of the Northern Gods, guys who are pretty much on tier with the Egyptian Light/Dark guys.


I think the true difficulty is keeping the nightlords ignorant of more fertile soil. Hell and Dyval are unsavory to them as who wants to run those places. Since the nightlords were all born human, love or hate, humans are their focus/fodder. Making them aware of other realms would be the tipping point. A limited, well thought through adventure, taking these things into account, all players are really just back-up GMs, and only presenting the loopholes(rabbit holes) you want, will make an adventure like this be fun.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 12:01 am
  

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Nekira Sudacne wrote:
if death and destruction were all they wanted like the dark, they had the opportunity to blot palladia out and didn't take it.
I'm not so sure they weren't taking that opportunity. I'm not really clear on how the Deevil-rule of Palladium ended, couldn't they possibly have been overthrown? Like people caught on to how they were killing EVERYONE and stopped following them, turned to other pantheons (including Demons) and pushed them out?

The Deevils clearly don't rule Palladium now so they withdrew for some reason, and if they were enjoying ruling it with such success I don't know why they'd give it up.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 12:34 am
  

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Tor wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
if death and destruction were all they wanted like the dark, they had the opportunity to blot palladia out and didn't take it.
I'm not so sure they weren't taking that opportunity. I'm not really clear on how the Deevil-rule of Palladium ended, couldn't they possibly have been overthrown? Like people caught on to how they were killing EVERYONE and stopped following them, turned to other pantheons (including Demons) and pushed them out?

The Deevils clearly don't rule Palladium now so they withdrew for some reason, and if they were enjoying ruling it with such success I don't know why they'd give it up.


If they were overthrown, clearly they didn't "give up", they were forced. and no, given all i've read, I really don't think it could be for the reasons you state. We just have fundamentally different takes on their methods and motivations dispite us having the same source material to look at.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:59 am
  

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We do know that, if the Ta Palladia is true, they were pitting races against each other mass genocides. Maybe they figured 'the double PPE today is more guaranteed over the higher net PPE from daily worships'.

My point is that they didn't really have the opportunity to plot out Palladium if someone else intervened and stopped them from doing it. Being halted by enemies means that they very well might have wanted to wipe out the entire planet.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 5:52 pm
  

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Tor wrote:
We do know that, if the Ta Palladia is true, they were pitting races against each other mass genocides. Maybe they figured 'the double PPE today is more guaranteed over the higher net PPE from daily worships'.

My point is that they didn't really have the opportunity to plot out Palladium if someone else intervened and stopped them from doing it. Being halted by enemies means that they very well might have wanted to wipe out the entire planet.


What is Te Palladia, and which book(s) has(ve) the information you two are discussing? I have never played the fantasy portion and am unfamiliar. Thanks.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:12 pm
  

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The 'Ta Palladia' (I think that's the term) is like this ancient book thingy (kinda like PF's bible) referencing a bunch of old events like Lictalon and Kym-Nark-Mar ganging up on the old ones, etc. Would love to read something like that printed in full, but it's something you only ever see quoted or referred to in distinct parts.

It would be quite a project to find and somehow organize every single reference to it from ever PF book though.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:48 pm
  

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Tor wrote:
The 'Ta Palladia' (I think that's the term) is like this ancient book thingy (kinda like PF's bible) referencing a bunch of old events like Lictalon and Kym-Nark-Mar ganging up on the old ones, etc. Would love to read something like that printed in full, but it's something you only ever see quoted or referred to in distinct parts.

It would be quite a project to find and somehow organize every single reference to it from ever PF book though.

Where is the info you two were discussing from? Is it in the main PFRPG or Land of the Damned, Old Ones or another one?


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Unread postPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:04 am
  

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we were discussing from an almalgam of sources. and Te Palladia is a fancy name for The Tristine Chronicles.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:48 am
  

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Ah that name rings a bell, no idea why I couldn't remember it... makes me wonder what 'Tristine' means though.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:39 am
  

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The nightlands to me just doesn't seem like a tasty target to the demons or deevils, Center is a good target, then failing that try to get a foot hold on rifts earth.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:33 am
  

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Tor wrote:
Ah that name rings a bell, no idea why I couldn't remember it... makes me wonder what 'Tristine' means though.


I think it's the name of the elf that wrote them. or given how old it is, what elf people think wrote them.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:07 pm
  

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Chronicle wrote:
The nightlands to me just doesn't seem like a tasty target to the demons or deevils, Center is a good target, then failing that try to get a foot hold on rifts earth.
Sometimes the tasty target is the one you can hold onto. Holding Nightlands might be easier than holding Phase World.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:27 pm
  

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Tor wrote:
Chronicle wrote:
The nightlands to me just doesn't seem like a tasty target to the demons or deevils, Center is a good target, then failing that try to get a foot hold on rifts earth.
Sometimes the tasty target is the one you can hold onto. Holding Nightlands might be easier than holding Phase World.


I was wondering. What if the ritual that the Nightlords used to to collapse the dimension in the Netherworld is not a memorized thing? What if it is a stored ritual written and hid in a "Nightlord vault", as many artifacts of power and other relics, as they are mentioned as having? What if the demons discovered where it was stored and are planning to steal it, making it unavailable to the Nightlords and plan to use it to collapse Dyyval, or at least one of their layers, or, maybe Nightbane universe itself? maybe it could be used to remove the Nightlands altogether and turn th Nightbane world regular? Just a thought where someone like Lord Foulseed might seek out mightbane for assistance in a "mission from the Dark" to save the worlds.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:41 pm
  

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Absolem wrote:
Tor wrote:
Chronicle wrote:
The nightlands to me just doesn't seem like a tasty target to the demons or deevils, Center is a good target, then failing that try to get a foot hold on rifts earth.
Sometimes the tasty target is the one you can hold onto. Holding Nightlands might be easier than holding Phase World.


I was wondering. What if the ritual that the Nightlords used to to collapse the dimension in the Netherworld is not a memorized thing? What if it is a stored ritual written and hid in a "Nightlord vault", as many artifacts of power and other relics, as they are mentioned as having? What if the demons discovered where it was stored and are planning to steal it, making it unavailable to the Nightlords and plan to use it to collapse Dyyval, or at least one of their layers, or, maybe Nightbane universe itself? maybe it could be used to remove the Nightlands altogether and turn th Nightbane world regular? Just a thought where someone like Lord Foulseed might seek out mightbane for assistance in a "mission from the Dark" to save the worlds.


Sounds like you have a campaign plot.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:57 am
  

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Why would the Dark want to save the world? I thought he wanted to destroy it.

Demons, like Lilith, want to keep stuff around so they can conquer and rule it. I could see Demons wanting to collapse a Dyval plane (it would have to be Dyval Prime, there's no indication that they're aware of the other layers) to win the war, but collapsing the Nightlands would be pointless.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 2:23 am
  

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what makes the nightlords so dangerous is that their understanding of magic is much higher then other people's, and they have Thousands of Nightlords to work together with.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 2:33 am
  

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Rappanui wrote:
what makes the nightlords so dangerous is that their understanding of magic is much higher then other people's, and they have Thousands of Nightlords to work together with.


Except from what I remember the Nightlords don't ever use their magic if they can help it, they're all caught up in their matter/energy manipulation abilities. Most of them have atrophied when it comes to magic knowledge, about the only one who's been really using his magical abilities is that one renegade (foulseed I think was his name) because he's cut off from all his original resources and on the run.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:47 am
  

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That's what the main book said about Night Lords but the plethora of magic spells possessed by most of the Nightlords and their avatars in Nightlands speaks contrary to it.

Even so, their matter control abilities are quite scary. Presumably that's how they destroyed an entire Netherworld full of demons right?

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Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:51 am
  

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Tor wrote:
That's what the main book said about Night Lords but the plethora of magic spells possessed by most of the Nightlords and their avatars in Nightlands speaks contrary to it.


Not really. Nightlands highlighted a few of the biggest and most dangerous Nightlords, just because the top dogs practice magic does not indicate the majority do.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 5:24 pm
  

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Tor wrote:
That's what the main book said about Night Lords but the plethora of magic spells possessed by most of the Nightlords and their avatars in Nightlands speaks contrary to it.

Even so, their matter control abilities are quite scary. Presumably that's how they destroyed an entire Netherworld full of demons right?


Just because they haven't forgotten the spells doesn't mean that they still use them, just as a guy who has a garage full of cars doesn't mean he's actually driving them around. It's not much different than what we see with Master Vampires, even if they were mages before conversion we're told they rarely if ever use their prior magical knowledge and focus on using their vampiric abilities instead. While the Nightlords started as magic users after their conversion they pretty much focused on their nice new abilities over the abilities that got them there.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 7:05 pm
  

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I disagree, Ashtart is shown to be using magic all the time, and he's a low level Nightlord, subservient to magog, runs NY in his stead.
Also, Nightlords grant the night priests their spells...
The main reason Nightlords don't use their spells, their minions use their abilities and most magic is Deceptive, which their minions are either immune to or are masters of, and feeding on supernatural creatures is not as appetizing

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Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 7:36 pm
  

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Rappanui wrote:
I disagree, Ashtart is shown to be using magic all the time, and he's a low level Nightlord, subservient to magog, runs NY in his stead.
Also, Nightlords grant the night priests their spells...
The main reason Nightlords don't use their spells, their minions use their abilities and most magic is Deceptive, which their minions are either immune to or are masters of, and feeding on supernatural creatures is not as appetizing

Sounds like you are saying they operate like lesser deities, but there are a thousand or so of them. So, it also sounds like you are saying, per previous posts, that the ritual allowed Moloch to harness the nightlords matter/energy control power to dissipate the dimensional energies of the layer, collapsing it. The text does not specifically state that power, but it would be intetesting. 1000 little super powered godlings. ...


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Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:38 pm
  

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Absolem wrote:
Rappanui wrote:
I disagree, Ashtart is shown to be using magic all the time, and he's a low level Nightlord, subservient to magog, runs NY in his stead.
Also, Nightlords grant the night priests their spells...
The main reason Nightlords don't use their spells, their minions use their abilities and most magic is Deceptive, which their minions are either immune to or are masters of, and feeding on supernatural creatures is not as appetizing

Sounds like you are saying they operate like lesser deities, but there are a thousand or so of them. So, it also sounds like you are saying, per previous posts, that the ritual allowed Moloch to harness the nightlords matter/energy control power to dissipate the dimensional energies of the layer, collapsing it. The text does not specifically state that power, but it would be intetesting. 1000 little super powered godlings. ...


Yes, that is quite exactly what I'm saying they are. They are Innumerable, and grow at the rate of human growth... Everytime a city gets that "Million" mark, a Nightlord is either added from another post, Recruited, or his "Faction" gets more territory. India is full of Nightlords, So is Northern Africa, going by the population numbers given in the Nightlands book. They are an ever growing army of "lesser Deities" who are slowly but surely taking over the world for the dark.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 1:17 am
  

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Rappanui wrote:
Absolem wrote:
Rappanui wrote:
I disagree, Ashtart is shown to be using magic all the time, and he's a low level Nightlord, subservient to magog, runs NY in his stead.
Also, Nightlords grant the night priests their spells...
The main reason Nightlords don't use their spells, their minions use their abilities and most magic is Deceptive, which their minions are either immune to or are masters of, and feeding on supernatural creatures is not as appetizing

Sounds like you are saying they operate like lesser deities, but there are a thousand or so of them. So, it also sounds like you are saying, per previous posts, that the ritual allowed Moloch to harness the nightlords matter/energy control power to dissipate the dimensional energies of the layer, collapsing it. The text does not specifically state that power, but it would be intetesting. 1000 little super powered godlings. ...


Yes, that is quite exactly what I'm saying they are. They are Innumerable, and grow at the rate of human growth... Everytime a city gets that "Million" mark, a Nightlord is either added from another post, Recruited, or his "Faction" gets more territory. India is full of Nightlords, So is Northern Africa, going by the population numbers given in the Nightlands book. They are an ever growing army of "lesser Deities" who are slowly but surely taking over the world for the dark.


Actually, it's stated that there havn't been any new nightlords sinse biblical times, and no more new ones are being created. where did you get that they just spawn every million or so?

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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:42 am
  

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Rappanui wrote:
Nightlords grant the night priests their spells...
Actually this isn't made clear. The main book theorized that the powers may come directly from the Dark (though the link is set up by the Night Squires/Lords).

Rappanui wrote:
They are Innumerable, and grow at the rate of human growth... Everytime a city gets that "Million" mark, a Nightlord is either added from another post
This is an interesting statistic, where is it from? I figure there must be more to becoming a Nightlord than there being need of one to rule a new population grouping. Perhaps this is what motives the Lords to give opportunities to new potentials, but the potentials must still be there.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
it's stated that there havn't been any new nightlords sinse biblical times
This estimation was revealed in Nightlands to be a little off. Wasn't there a very young/recent Nightlord from post-biblical times?

Perhaps we should define biblical too because technically the last part of the new testament is set in the future so... =/

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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:56 am
  

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from the texts in nightlands, Says There's roughly a Nightlord for every city with a million plus people, And at least one Avatar for every city of at least 100,000 and while it's Trivial to say that there are No NEW nightlords, There are plenty of nightlords from older times just sitting it out in some god forsaken far off location.
As for the spawning scenario.. This is because of the Nemesis RCC.. The nightlands always mirror the real world in growth spurs. If anything, Lord Foulseed is the Loose canon that will Probably engage in Recruiting potential Nightlords in his own service.
For All We Know, Lord Mocker has thousands of Nightlords sitting in his Dark Siberian Goulags.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 12:06 pm
  

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Rappanui wrote:
from the texts in nightlands, Says There's roughly a Nightlord for every city with a million plus people, And at least one Avatar for every city of at least 100,000 and while it's Trivial to say that there are No NEW nightlords, There are plenty of nightlords from older times just sitting it out in some god forsaken far off location.


Nothing really indicates there are thousands of nightlords that have been sitting in some rual place doing nothing for mellenia

Quote:
As for the spawning scenario.. This is because of the Nemesis RCC.. The nightlands always mirror the real world in growth spurs.


Yes, but the nightlords don't spawn in result. besides, unlike most, Nightlords dont' die if their nemisis does, but they can become the nemisis of someone new after the origional croaks.

Quote:
If anything, Lord Foulseed is the Loose canon that will Probably engage in Recruiting potential Nightlords in his own service.


making new nightlords requires one to have a connection to the dark, so only Moloch and Mocker could possibly do any recuiting.

Quote:
For All We Know, Lord Mocker has thousands of Nightlords sitting in his Dark Siberian Goulags.


Nothing at all indicates this, you just seem to like the idea of there being tons of nightlords

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Rappanui wrote:
This is because of the Nemesis RCC.. The nightlands always mirror the real world in growth spurs.
The Nemesis is a very unclear concept. It's writeup conflicts itself by initially saying everyone has a nemesis, and then goes on to mention that only important people have them.

There are roughly 30% the number of Dopplegangers as humans (not every human has one) and I imagine the number of Nemeses are even less (because is 3 in 10 people really a major player? doubt it)

It gets weirder when you realize that a Nemesis Doppleganger can belong to someone else.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Nothing really indicates there are thousands of nightlords that have been sitting in some rual place doing nothing for mellenia
It's possible that some might rule over areas with fewer than a million people though. Though they can't be too isolated if they wish to avoid starving (that or just have a Nightbane to feed on, a single one's healing factor could sate hundreds of Nightlords.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:02 pm
  

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not really.. Nightbane Regenerate 10hp/a melee, Nightlords Drain at (Estimated) 50HP a melee, and supernatural beings need 10 times the energy to satiate a Nightlord...

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Unread postPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 2:00 am
  

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Nightmask wrote:
Rappanui wrote:
what makes the nightlords so dangerous is that their understanding of magic is much higher then other people's, and they have Thousands of Nightlords to work together with.


Except from what I remember the Nightlords don't ever use their magic if they can help it, they're all caught up in their matter/energy manipulation abilities. Most of them have atrophied when it comes to magic knowledge, about the only one who's been really using his magical abilities is that one renegade (foulseed I think was his name) because he's cut off from all his original resources and on the run.


I never really bought that, especially since most of the ones that've been statted out have got a fairly extensive spell list to work with. Plus the Nightlords have spent a fair bit of time plotting to have rivals killed, so every Nightlord in the canon setting is an immortal mastermind who's managed to survive five or ten thousand years' worth of warfare, assassination attempts, framing attempts, and unexpected random appearances of nasty critters from other dimensions. Most of the Nightlords who've survived into the modern era are going to be ruthlessly pragmatic, and I don't buy the idea of them refusing to use a spell when it's the best tool for the job. It just doesn't strike me as very sensible behavior for beings with mental stats in the 20s and a few thousand years of experience under their belts.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:03 am
  

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Rallan wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
Rappanui wrote:
what makes the nightlords so dangerous is that their understanding of magic is much higher then other people's, and they have Thousands of Nightlords to work together with.


Except from what I remember the Nightlords don't ever use their magic if they can help it, they're all caught up in their matter/energy manipulation abilities. Most of them have atrophied when it comes to magic knowledge, about the only one who's been really using his magical abilities is that one renegade (foulseed I think was his name) because he's cut off from all his original resources and on the run.


I never really bought that, especially since most of the ones that've been statted out have got a fairly extensive spell list to work with. Plus the Nightlords have spent a fair bit of time plotting to have rivals killed, so every Nightlord in the canon setting is an immortal mastermind who's managed to survive five or ten thousand years' worth of warfare, assassination attempts, framing attempts, and unexpected random appearances of nasty critters from other dimensions. Most of the Nightlords who've survived into the modern era are going to be ruthlessly pragmatic, and I don't buy the idea of them refusing to use a spell when it's the best tool for the job. It just doesn't strike me as very sensible behavior for beings with mental stats in the 20s and a few thousand years of experience under their belts.


But are the spells really the most useful, when you have such mastery over energy and matter? Just because they're ruthless masterminds doesn't mean that they've bothered with their magic, after all that requires personal involvement and how may Nightlords are really in the position to be engaging in such personal combat maneuvers that they'd keep their magical skills fresh? Foulseed's the only one actually getting around and having to depend on magic as much if not moreso than his personal matter/energy mastery.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:42 pm
  

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Rappanui wrote:
Tor wrote:
have a Nightbane to feed on, a single one's healing factor could sate hundreds of Nightlords.

not really.. Nightbane Regenerate 10hp/a melee, Nightlords Drain at (Estimated) 50HP a melee, and supernatural beings need 10 times the energy to satiate a Nightlord...
Read the Nightlords' HP requirements a little bit closer in regard to Nightbane, the time it takes to feed, and their daily requirements. You don't have the facts straight.

A Nightbane can regenerate the daily food requirements of a Nightlord in half a minute. This means that a single enslaved Nightbane being continually fed upon can sustain 2880 Nightlords. Nightlords CAN feed slightly faster than Nightbane can regenerate (50 HP drunk per minute versus 40 HP healed) but not by much.

I'm not sure how many Lords there are (perhaps there are over 3000?) but I imagine that even a single Nightbane captive passed around could sustain a ridiculous amount of them.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:54 pm
  

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Tor wrote:
Rappanui wrote:
Tor wrote:
have a Nightbane to feed on, a single one's healing factor could sate hundreds of Nightlords.

not really.. Nightbane Regenerate 10hp/a melee, Nightlords Drain at (Estimated) 50HP a melee, and supernatural beings need 10 times the energy to satiate a Nightlord...
Read the Nightlords' HP requirements a little bit closer in regard to Nightbane, the time it takes to feed, and their daily requirements. You don't have the facts straight.

A Nightbane can regenerate the daily food requirements of a Nightlord in half a minute. This means that a single enslaved Nightbane being continually fed upon can sustain 2880 Nightlords. Nightlords CAN feed slightly faster than Nightbane can regenerate (50 HP drunk per minute versus 40 HP healed) but not by much.

I'm not sure how many Lords there are (perhaps there are over 3000?) but I imagine that even a single Nightbane captive passed around could sustain a ridiculous amount of them.


It's no more than 1000.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 2:15 pm
  

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Wow, well that settles it. How the Nightlords have any feeding problems astounds me. Plenty left over from a Nightbane prisoner to feed all the Night Princes too, probably. Not sure how many of them there are.

I'd like to hope that in the high-magic turmoil of the Nightbane wars that more Princes/Lords are potentially being created though. Next sourcebook should get rules on how to transition from Priest>Squire>Lord.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 2:53 pm
  

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Tor wrote:
Wow, well that settles it. How the Nightlords have any feeding problems astounds me. Plenty left over from a Nightbane prisoner to feed all the Night Princes too, probably. Not sure how many of them there are.

I'd like to hope that in the high-magic turmoil of the Nightbane wars that more Princes/Lords are potentially being created though. Next sourcebook should get rules on how to transition from Priest>Squire>Lord.


I don't see where it ever said nightlords had a feeding "problem", they need to feed, yes, but they command armies have have at least a city full of slaves, food is never in short supply.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:57 am
  

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Let me put it another way: why Nightlords would feed on anything besides a Nightbane captive confuses me. They're a much more renewable food source.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:03 pm
  

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Tor wrote:
Let me put it another way: why Nightlords would feed on anything besides a Nightbane captive confuses me. They're a much more renewable food source.


because restraining a nightbane is harder than grabbing some random slave that's displeasing you at the moment. particuarly because there's no method I'm aware of to prevent nightbane from using talents other than keeping them unconcious or drained of PPE somehow, both presenting problems of their own.

Talents arn't magic, so anti-magic devices don't work. they don't require words or physical gestures so restraining them dosn't work. And they learn them naturally with no training so given enough time they will eventually develop a talent that permits them to escape.

Lastly, Nightlords arn't big into sharing, in fact they have trouble co-operating on common goals. even if one did use some unstatted artifact to keep a nightbane under wraps, he wouldn't share.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 4:39 pm
  

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The problem with 'grab the random slave' though is that it's just not that sustainable. Humans heal only 2 HP per day, meaning you'd need 10 humans at minimum to keep a nightlord fed. They require a lot of maintenance, space, protect your minions from killing them, and you couldn't overfeed (gorge) as I'm sure Nightlords love doing since you might accidentally kill them.

If we look at Dopplegangers, even with the 1:10 ratio, their fast healing abilities make them as sustainable a food source as humans are. 24hp/day gives you basically the same 2/day for Nightlords. The only difference with Dopplegangers is they suck as a PPE source. The bigger pool and heightened PPE recovery (in terms of what Nightlords get) makes humans a bit more attractive.

Though why Nightlords would ever feed on either of those when they have Hounds is confusing. Hounds have at minimum 24HP (2 points for Nightlord) and can heal all of it in an hour's trance. So really, a single hound could, by being out of commission, sustain a Nightlord.

We also know that Nightlords can feed on Squires. They all have a minimum of 40 HP, or 4 points for feeding a Nightlord. They heal that back in 4 minutes. On average it would only take 2 minutes for a Squire to heal it. So by visiting and feeding on their loyal Squire 5x over the course of 20 minutes, a Nightlord can be sated for the day.

Keeping a Squire fed is easy too, because unlike the Lords, theirs doesn't mention a 1:10 ratio for Dopplegangers/Hounds. Heck, under the rules, I'm not sure what forbids a pair of Squires from just sucking each other's HP to continue existing, which is a drop in the pot considering their impressive regenerative rate. A single Squire renting themselves out to Nightlords (perhaps travelling from city to city) could fulfill all their eating requirements.

As for draining Nightbane of PPE, the Lords/Squires feed on PPE as well as HP, so they would presumably feed on this first each time to keep the bane from being weak. The only problem I guess is that initial top of the hour where they get the 5/10 PPE and might spend it on a weak talent. Probably not enough to escape though.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 5:20 pm
  

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:lol:

I'm sorry, are you really trying to break down regernation rates for a PPE farm? This conversation is so rediculous I don't even know how to address it. it's a total non-sequiter. They are going to use inefficent methods for the same reason that donald trump dosn't calculate how much that 3000 dollar dinner was actually worth. it's completely irrelevent to him, he's too rich to care. Every nightlord rules a dominion with millions of slaves, dopplegangers and supernatural critters of all types. at no point would any of them break out a calculator and figure out the most cost efficent way to get their meal. it's like saying a billionaire is going run his meals on a minimum diet budget.

They don't care how much it costs. They already have the infastructure to ride herd on a domanion of millions, the cost to have a few hounds drag screaming victems in for mealtime is so negiable compared to their operations they wouldn't even worry about it.

Conversly keeping a nightbane prisoner to feed on is sufficently difficult it's not worth teh effort. not that it's impossible, but that it would require concious effort at all as opposed to him just saying "Bring me ten slaves to feast upon today" to some minions and wait for them to bring 10 slaves.

More inefficent? sure. Nightlords won't give half a damn though. They would care as much about it as you care for the chickens in your KFC.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:48 pm
  

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It's also a time-based thing though. A nightlord can get his fill in a minute (50/min, only needs 20/day) but a pathetic human probably won't be enough. It's on average going to take a couple humans, so that's 2 minutes feeding time whereas feeding on 1 strong thing would've just taken a minute. Plus it's more trouble if he has guests and needs to make dinner for them.

I don't think keeping a weak nightbane prisoner would be all that hard. Nightbane aren't that strong =/ Obviously it's a bad idea to try it with the Wanderer, but any ol' noob lvl 1 nightbane (the most likely to get captured or duped into thinking they can trust Nightlords) would do.

My new point stands about 'why don't they just use hounds or Squires' though, I think. Sure, you can feed on a batch of humans in less time, but it's probably safer to do it on your own minions.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:52 pm
  

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Because feeding on your minions is a great way to forment rebellion for one thing. And what makes you think the nightlord would want to rush and finish his meal in a minute as opposed to take an hour to relax and enjoy the screams of his victems? What's their hurry.

Just because you can scarf down a meal and get your full compliment of vitamens and nutrients, dosn't mean you want to.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:01 am
  

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Tor wrote:
Let me put it another way: why Nightlords would feed on anything besides a Nightbane captive confuses me. They're a much more renewable food source.


Because for every one Nightbane in the world there are hundreds (thousands? maybe even millions?) of ordinary human beings. They're cheap, they're hyperabundant, they're incredibly easy to acquire (the prison system alone is an endless banquet), and it's stupidly easy to keep them captive. Accidentally killing a Nightbane during feeding is a pain in the ass because replacements don't exactly grow on trees, while accidentally killing humans while feeding is just part of the fun.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:04 am
  

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Rallan wrote:
Tor wrote:
Let me put it another way: why Nightlords would feed on anything besides a Nightbane captive confuses me. They're a much more renewable food source.


Because for every one Nightbane in the world there are hundreds (thousands? maybe even millions?) of ordinary human beings. They're cheap, they're hyperabundant, they're incredibly easy to acquire (the prison system alone is an endless banquet), and it's stupidly easy to keep them captive. Accidentally killing a Nightbane during feeding is a pain in the ass because replacements don't exactly grow on trees, while accidentally killing humans while feeding is just part of the fun.

As mentioned in the 'why humans exist' thread on the rifts forum. Humans are the junkfood of the megaverse....and the Nightlords like junkfood. :D

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Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Because feeding on your minions is a great way to forment rebellion for one thing.
I don't think hounds are intelligent enough to rebel over something like this. Especially when it's not killing them or causing any permanent damage and being used as a food source probably keeps you safe compared to being sent to fight on the front lines.

Obviously it's be a bad idea to force it on squires or hound masters though. My outlook though is that this could be used as a punishment (lords probably punish disobedience or failure with assault anyway) and that some minions may VOLUNTEER for the process to prove their toughness and love for their master.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
what makes you think the nightlord would want to rush and finish his meal in a minute as opposed to take an hour to relax and enjoy the screams of his victems? What's their hurry.
Packed schedules, they might have other stuff to do. Better to fulfill your eating needs immediately. You can still torture victims for hours afterward if you like, no need to drag out the actual eating though.

Although if you are feeding from someone with a healing factor, you could keep feeding as they regenerated. Which is pretty much what I'm saying they could do to more renewable sources of HP.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Just because you can scarf down a meal and get your full compliment of vitamens and nutrients, dosn't mean you want to.
I know, but this is about efficiency. I'm operating under the assumption that Nightlords have plans and goals that they'd rather spend time on.

Rallan wrote:
for every one Nightbane in the world there are hundreds (thousands? maybe even millions?) of ordinary human beings.
Yeah I'm aware, but there are probably hundreds of Nightbane for each Nightlord though, so it shouldn't be that hard to get one.

Rallan wrote:
They're cheap, they're hyperabundant, they're incredibly easy to acquire (the prison system alone is an endless banquet), and it's stupidly easy to keep them captive.
Yeah but they're probably a lot harder to keep alive, feed, and transporting/jailing 1 captive takes less space than dozens.

Rallan wrote:
Accidentally killing a Nightbane during feeding is a pain in the ass because replacements don't exactly grow on trees, while accidentally killing humans while feeding is just part of the fun.
Yeah but you're not likely to accidentally kill a Nightbane. Unless of course it decided to stay in Facade in hopes of dying and preventing you from using it for food.

Anyway I'm going to shift this from 'why don't they feed on Nightbane' do 'why don't they feed on Hounds/Squires' because that's a better argument.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 4:18 pm
  

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Tor wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Because feeding on your minions is a great way to forment rebellion for one thing.
I don't think hounds are intelligent enough to rebel over something like this. Especially when it's not killing them or causing any permanent damage and being used as a food source probably keeps you safe compared to being sent to fight on the front lines.

Obviously it's be a bad idea to force it on squires or hound masters though. My outlook though is that this could be used as a punishment (lords probably punish disobedience or failure with assault anyway) and that some minions may VOLUNTEER for the process to prove their toughness and love for their master.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
what makes you think the nightlord would want to rush and finish his meal in a minute as opposed to take an hour to relax and enjoy the screams of his victems? What's their hurry.
Packed schedules, they might have other stuff to do. Better to fulfill your eating needs immediately. You can still torture victims for hours afterward if you like, no need to drag out the actual eating though.

Although if you are feeding from someone with a healing factor, you could keep feeding as they regenerated. Which is pretty much what I'm saying they could do to more renewable sources of HP.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Just because you can scarf down a meal and get your full compliment of vitamens and nutrients, dosn't mean you want to.
I know, but this is about efficiency. I'm operating under the assumption that Nightlords have plans and goals that they'd rather spend time on.

Rallan wrote:
for every one Nightbane in the world there are hundreds (thousands? maybe even millions?) of ordinary human beings.
Yeah I'm aware, but there are probably hundreds of Nightbane for each Nightlord though, so it shouldn't be that hard to get one.

Rallan wrote:
They're cheap, they're hyperabundant, they're incredibly easy to acquire (the prison system alone is an endless banquet), and it's stupidly easy to keep them captive.
Yeah but they're probably a lot harder to keep alive, feed, and transporting/jailing 1 captive takes less space than dozens.

Rallan wrote:
Accidentally killing a Nightbane during feeding is a pain in the ass because replacements don't exactly grow on trees, while accidentally killing humans while feeding is just part of the fun.
Yeah but you're not likely to accidentally kill a Nightbane. Unless of course it decided to stay in Facade in hopes of dying and preventing you from using it for food.

Anyway I'm going to shift this from 'why don't they feed on Nightbane' do 'why don't they feed on Hounds/Squires' because that's a better argument.


How about Why is this a relevant discussion?


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