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Unread postPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 5:16 pm
  

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Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
Tor wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Because feeding on your minions is a great way to forment rebellion for one thing.
I don't think hounds are intelligent enough to rebel over something like this. Especially when it's not killing them or causing any permanent damage and being used as a food source probably keeps you safe compared to being sent to fight on the front lines.

Obviously it's be a bad idea to force it on squires or hound masters though. My outlook though is that this could be used as a punishment (lords probably punish disobedience or failure with assault anyway) and that some minions may VOLUNTEER for the process to prove their toughness and love for their master.


I'm sure some volentary feeding happens, and I can even see the nightlord publically "devouring" a minion as the end result of a "You have failed me for the last time" display to show the others the error of their ways. but hounds are not completely mindless automations. They are more like very intelligent, well, hounds, and like any dog, if you beat them enough, they will eventually turn on you. And if they might not think of it on their own, there is plenty of inter-nightlord rivalry, and most would jump at the chance to grow their army by sheltering disaffection troops.

will there be exeptions where nightlords do feed on a minion? Sure, but they hardly negate the rule.

Quote:
Packed schedules, they might have other stuff to do. Better to fulfill your eating needs immediately. You can still torture victims for hours afterward if you like, no need to drag out the actual eating though.

Although if you are feeding from someone with a healing factor, you could keep feeding as they regenerated. Which is pretty much what I'm saying they could do to more renewable sources of HP.

I know, but this is about efficiency. I'm operating under the assumption that Nightlords have plans and goals that they'd rather spend time on.


While the idea of some nightlords being workaholics is appealing, I just can't apply it across the board to all of them, or even a majority. In my mind, nightlords are still fundamentally humans who have been corrupted by godlike power from an evil and corrupting source. This hasn't made them strictly lazy, no, but they are hardly immune to normal psycological stresses.

The point is sitting down and enjoying a meal, however atrocious it's form, is a fundamental part of the human psyche, no matter how many supernatural beings they lord it over. The idea of the busy workaholic who never has time to eat is an abberation of the normal psycology of these guys. Most of them will be waiting for the chance to sit down and relax

Moloch is probablly the most workaholic nightlord in the setting, and even he is heavily implied to enjoy the finer things in life.

They're not lazy villians, but nor are they machines who view eating as some kind of unpleasant drain on their day.

At the end of the day, nightlords are horrible, terrible people, but like most people, sitting, eating, and being pampered by a hoard of slavish servants is very appealing to their egos and most importantly, their stress levels. Eating is a biological function, sitting down for a meal, with conversation and other people, is a psycological evolution for both bonding with others, and for coping with the days stress.

I don't see the nightlords doing away with that, and more important, I see the few who are the workaholics you discribe to have the same problems all workaholics do: few allies, fewer friends, and a really short temper. Not very good for people in their situation. There's a reason Moloch's decree banned open warfare between nightlords. They need all the allies they can get.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 5:33 pm
  

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
I can even see a nightlord taking his time by choosing off of a menu: "Well lets see, I will take the orphaned twins for starters, could you bring in the grandmother in about an hour......"

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Unread postPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 6:58 pm
  

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Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
eliakon wrote:
I can even see a nightlord taking his time by choosing off of a menu: "Well lets see, I will take the orphaned twins for starters, could you bring in the grandmother in about an hour......"


I'll admit, I try to keep my nightlords from becoming TOO moustache-twirling cartoony. :D

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Unread postPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 2:00 am
  

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
eliakon wrote:
I can even see a nightlord taking his time by choosing off of a menu: "Well lets see, I will take the orphaned twins for starters, could you bring in the grandmother in about an hour......"


I'll admit, I try to keep my nightlords from becoming TOO moustache-twirling cartoony. :D


True, but I CAN see them trying to get different 'flavors' they may well be able to taste different kinds of suffering, or taste the difference between a broken person and a defient one. But yah, there is probably a point where its gone camp :D

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Unread postPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 6:42 pm
  

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Comment: If you have something to say, back it up with thoughts and reasons. Simply posting to agree or disagree tends to be a waste.
I see you picturing the Lords having these massive hour-long banquets, but I can't help but think that some might prefer to snack throughout the day, sit down for 5 minutes here or there every hour or two to nibble on things.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 7:29 pm
  

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Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
Tor wrote:
I see you picturing the Lords having these massive hour-long banquets, but I can't help but think that some might prefer to snack throughout the day, sit down for 5 minutes here or there every hour or two to nibble on things.


I already said some would, but they are probablly just the exceptions.

Likewise, those that enjoy their meals, don't have banquets every day.

I can picture it usually taking about as long as it does for people, likely 3-4 meals taking between half an hour and an hour each. sometimes less sometimes more.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 7:07 pm
  

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Comment: If you have something to say, back it up with thoughts and reasons. Simply posting to agree or disagree tends to be a waste.
I think Lilith would be the type to drag it out and enjoy the sensations of suffering. Moloch seems like one of those 'I enjoy that release of death, nothing compares' quick-fix guys.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 9:08 pm
  

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Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
I agree with both. Moloch definatly the workaholic and efficent type. Which is part of why he has stayed top dog for so long. At the same time it's mentioned that this ruthless efficency unnerves even the other nightlords, which indicates at least a simple majority do think his laser-like focus is an abnormality, which indicates they do not share it.

Lillith is the other end of the spectrum, somehow enjoys leasure and luxury a little too much, and only gets away with it because people often understimate how much work she ACTUALLY gets done.

And then lord Magog is represnsitive, I think, of the "Average" Nightlord. Cruel, dangerous, but also flawed, not always as smart as he could be, and got to where he is as much by luck as by skill. He likely enjoys averagely-long meals, and like all busy men occasionally has to scarf it down between busy spells. His meals depend on how much free time he has, but he likes to enjoy it if he can do so reasonably.

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You can have something done good, fast and cheap. If you want it done good and fast, it's not going to be cheap. If you want it done fast and cheap it won't be good. If you want something done good and cheap it won't be done fast. ~ Dark Brandon


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Unread postPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 3:01 pm
  

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Perhaps she maintains the illusion of getting nothing done through engaging in the hours-long torture as a cover? People underestimate her ability to multi-task.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 3:10 pm
  

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Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
I agree, she definatly a multi-tasker par exellence, but I always give my Nightlords some more mundane hobbies. Just because your evil dosn't mean you stop liking everything good. I always pictured Lillith as an art afficianado. Maybe she's even responsible for "modern" art trends as some kind of joke on the world.

The real trick with lillith is to make sure most of her hobbies arn't things one does solo, that way she can work her charm and schmooze up others to get work done for her. In fact, the only time lillith is REALLY relaxing is when she's completely alone. the general rule should be if she's talking, she's working, no matter what it seems like they're talking about. If nothing else, she's trying to make a new friend, or maintaining her cover.

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You can have something done good, fast and cheap. If you want it done good and fast, it's not going to be cheap. If you want it done fast and cheap it won't be good. If you want something done good and cheap it won't be done fast. ~ Dark Brandon


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Unread postPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:50 pm
  

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Tor wrote:
We do know that, if the Ta Palladia is true, they were pitting races against each other mass genocides. Maybe they figured 'the double PPE today is more guaranteed over the higher net PPE from daily worships'.

The passage that describes their rule is quite clear that they ordered their own worshippers to be sacrificed, and that it withered away because if that. It's also made quite clear that they were used to overthrow the original ruler of their realm. Forgot his name, but they just used the cult to gain power.

Also,it's been stated in the books that when a rival of hades/dyval invaded the nightlands the Nightlords did a ritual to destroy them.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 5:16 pm
  

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Realized re-reading page some things not responded to...

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
I can even see the nightlord publically "devouring" a minion as the end result of a "You have failed me for the last time" display to show the others the error of their ways. but hounds are not completely mindless automations. They are more like very intelligent, well, hounds, and like any dog, if you beat them enough, they will eventually turn on you.
Dogs injured by abusive masters can remain hurt and nurse a grudge for a long time. With Hounds able to regenerate in an hour, I wonder if they think the same way. A daily feeding from Nightlords/Princes, if done to all hounds in equal amounts (not singling out one for more) could be culturally par for the course, a 'tuck in before stasis' they grow to expect.

Nightlords can feed in small amounts and I'm not clear on whether or not the process is even painful. It might just sap a bit of vitality, which could be no different than someone putting a dog sled team through a run to tire them out before sleep. Or getting a hound to share some of the quail it brings in its mouth.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
there is plenty of inter-nightlord rivalry, and most would jump at the chance to grow their army by sheltering disaffection troops.
True, but only if one is doing it so much more than the others to the point of them feeling singled out. One could question how much pain hounds feel and how complexly they view people. They're not psychic like dogs and horses are :D

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
In my mind, nightlords are still fundamentally humans who have been corrupted by godlike power from an evil and corrupting source. This hasn't made them strictly lazy, no, but they are hardly immune to normal psycological stresses.
I thought they were all sorceres who find a unique form of transformation. Do we know that the Dark is directly involved in all Squires/Princes/Princesses/Lords/Ladies ? Or just Moloch/Mocker/?Foulseed?

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
They're not lazy villians, but nor are they machines who view eating as some kind of unpleasant drain on their day.
Depends, feeding on a hound might not be as enjoyable as feeding on a human, less emotion or something? Depends on whether or not a Nightlord wants to be an efficient eater or an indulgent one. People who eat tasty food versus bland healthy food for example.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
At the end of the day, nightlords are horrible, terrible people
Are they? If they avoided killing people and kept their food sources healthy (a Wampyre who uses Healing Psionics to restore the HP of those he drinks blood from is comparable) I'm not sure why they'd have to be evil at all.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
like most people, sitting, eating, and being pampered by a hoard of slavish servants is very appealing to their egos and most importantly, their stress levels. Eating is a biological function, sitting down for a meal, with conversation and other people, is a psycological evolution for both bonding with others, and for coping with the days stress.
True, though they do become increasingly alien beings and I wonder how much the mind can change away from such habits.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Moloch definatly the workaholic and efficent type. Which is part of why he has stayed top dog for so long. At the same time it's mentioned that this ruthless efficency unnerves even the other nightlords, which indicates at least a simple majority do think his laser-like focus is an abnormality, which indicates they do not share it.
I'm not sure if we should conclude that the abnormality perceived by the majority of nightlords is laser-like focus. Maybe other Nightlords are less ruthless? (probably most don't want to destroy the world like he was, and will be comparatively merciful, if still evil) or less dedicated (more rec time). They might be equally efficient or competent, but spend less time (and make more compassionate choices) leading to less destructive output.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Lillith is the other end of the spectrum, somehow enjoys leasure and luxury a little too much, and only gets away with it because people often understimate how much work she ACTUALLY gets done.
It's not so much that she 'gets away with it' because Nightlords aren't exactly punished for indulging themselves or wasting time so long as they fulfill whatever duties Moloch expects of them. With Lilith, I figure she works hard and plays hard. She might spend a lot of time on recreation, but that probably means that she is efficient at her job, too. If her recreation interfered with her duties, Moloch would probably punish her.

As it is, she has time to do all her duties, have fun, AND plot with demons on the side, so she must be efficient and competent.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
the only time lillith is REALLY relaxing is when she's completely alone. the general rule should be if she's talking, she's working, no matter what it seems like they're talking about. If nothing else, she's trying to make a new friend, or maintaining her cover.
I'd say it depends on the challenge. Initially when making friends, sure. But once she has someone under her thumb, I think it's possible she may be able to relax in their presence.

Sir_Spirit wrote:
they ordered their own worshippers to be sacrificed, and that it withered away because if that. It's also made quite clear that they were used to overthrow the original ruler of their realm. Forgot his name, but they just used the cult to gain power.


Yeah I think the previous ruler was named either Dyvag or Dyval, something about only surviving as a name.

Previous to them I prefer to think it was simply known as "Hell" like PRPG stated. That and they used to be "Devils" prior to being "Deevils".

That part always confused me, how come Devils changed to Deevils but Demons wasn't changed to Deemons?

Sir_Spirit wrote:
when a rival of hades/dyval invaded the nightlands the Nightlords did a ritual to destroy them.
Not sure if they were a rival. I recall it saying something about them being on a size/scale of hades or dyval though.

I was under the impression that Dyval ended up being bigger than Hades though, due to being a bunch of stacked dimensions. Perhaps those individual dimension-continents are smaller than Hades as a whole though, since Hades mirrors the entire Palladium world?

I'm not clear on who these guys are and if they have the same mystic defenses as Hades/Dyval, but part of it was that they left a rift open longe enough for some massive ritual to be conducted. Surely that mistake would be learned from.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:24 am
  

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Not sure which of Hades/dyval is bigger, though one is a mirror of Palladium, in the same way the nightlands "mirror" the earth.
And they are both Hell now. Or rather both are Netherealms of Hell(there are others).

And I prefer to think of Deevils as Devils.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 9:06 pm
  

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I don't mind calling them Deevils so long as we call the others Deemons.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 10:48 pm
  

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the nightlands is not hell. I don't know where you're getting your information from, perhaps some bad rifter articles. ... but alot of the presumptions in this topic are wrong. (Cannonically) The minion war does not affect Nightbane because of the Barriers setup by the Nightlords. The Hell that they collapsed was never mentioned again in canon after that one blurb in nightlands. as to What version of hell they collapsed, it was The one they labeled the "netherworld".. In Rifts Dyval they mention that hades and dyval have many subrealms and they are not all accessible..

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Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:53 pm
  

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Rappanui wrote:
the nightlands is not hell. I don't know where you're getting your information from, perhaps some bad rifter articles. ... but alot of the presumptions in this topic are wrong. (Cannonically) The minion war does not affect Nightbane because of the Barriers setup by the Nightlords. The Hell that they collapsed was never mentioned again in canon after that one blurb in nightlands. as to What version of hell they collapsed, it was The one they labeled the "netherworld".. In Rifts Dyval they mention that hades and dyval have many subrealms and they are not all accessible..

It sounds like you are mixed up.
The "nether realms of Hell" include Hades and Dyval and the unnamed realm they destroyed.
Plus a bunch of others.
The Minion War affects the Megaverse however the GM wants.
Because you are so mixed up, I'm not sure if the Barrier thing you are referring to is something new or the old "keeps out mega damage stuff" one.
And Canonically has one n.
Cannonically might be appropriate for the MegaWeapons of Rifts, though....

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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 3:37 am
  

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they Destroyed a specific version of "hell" Called the Netherworld.
Not "hades/Dyval" and iirc, Rifts China 1 goes into the Diffirent hells being ruled by various hell lords ...
In that particular version of hell, The red flame demons, and the other minions of Lady Lilith (I guess this version of hell was inspired by Dante's Inferno)... which is NOT like any Hell used by Palladium or D&D.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 3:39 am
  

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and the dimensional barrier the Nightlords run Keeps the Gods of light away, and what ever major enemy from entering their universe. Until Mocker and Moloch are dethroned, That barrier is likely going to stay.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 3:41 am
  

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also, that damn shallows of night introduced the false concept that night princes are young nightlords. that is NOT the case at all.. and i'm upset Nightbane Survival guide continues that misconception. .. humans Can not be turned into night princes, night princes just come into existence as an ideal gets achieved (See Nemesis RCC). Ie. After A human becomes important enough in the world a Night prince is "born" based on him. Hence their masters of illusion status.
They are as Unnatural as they appear. A Night prince could never turn a human into one of his own .... That requires Sorscerous rituals and Contract with the Dark, and probably untold numbers of human sacrifices ( the books Hint that each nightlord sacrificed their human cities to become one, Perhaps similar to FMA's Alchemist stones.. Let's say 10,000 lives at least) to turn into a Nightlord. .. The book further goes to mention that the Last Nightlord hasn't been born since the days before Established monotheism).

which makes me believe, that the last New nightlords to be born were actually Vlad tepes, Saladin, and one of the Later kahn.
We Already know that Hannibal's Doppleganger survived and became a greater Doppleganger...

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Unread postPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 3:38 pm
  

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Rappanui wrote:
they Destroyed a specific version of "hell" Called the Netherworld.
Not "hades/Dyval" and iirc, Rifts China 1 goes into the Diffirent hells being ruled by various hell lords ...
In that particular version of hell, The red flame demons, and the other minions of Lady Lilith (I guess this version of hell was inspired by Dante's Inferno)... which is NOT like any Hell used by Palladium or D&D.

No, they destroy a nameless nether realm/world of Hell.
Hell is divided into a number of nether realms/worlds in the Megaverse.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 3:46 pm
  

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Rappanui wrote:
also, that damn shallows of night introduced the false concept that night princes are young nightlords. that is NOT the case at all..


Uh, the Nightlords and Night Princes were all humans at one point, the Dark made then something else.

Quote:
i'm upset Nightbane Survival guide continues that misconception. .. humans Can not be turned into night princes, night princes just come into existence as an ideal gets achieved (See Nemesis RCC).


Uh, no, they are continuing the canon ideas. The Nemesis RCC wasn't about thing it popping into existence, it was about the worlds mirroring each other. If you become influential enough a night prince doesn't just pop into existence, but rather, if your nemesis was already a night prince he too would be a rising star it the nightlands....




Quote:
.. Let's say 10,000 lives

Why? There is no evidenc of them sacrificing anyone to become a Nightlords.

Quote:
which makes me believe, that the last New nightlords to be born were actually Vlad tepes, Saladin, and one of the Later kahn. ...

Uh, Vlad Dracula tried to help a Vampire Intelligence enter our world, named Dragular or something, which means he's a vampire.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 6:25 pm
  

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Dragular? That's the Rifts version of it.
and i chose 10,000 cause it's a nice big , Mystical Number.
And What we Do know from when Cj carella was writing it.... that Nightlords annihlated what ever kingdoms they came from.

At No point in Cj Carella's Version of Nightbane did he ever say Nightprinces were Once human. All that is ever said of Night princes is that they are Servants of the nightlords, and came into existance in the nightlands. There is plenty of evidence to support the idea of races spontaneously errupting in the Nightlands, and the Humanlooking Familliars there are proof of that.


that was only in the abortion that was shallows of night (where they have a Night prince with the powers of a nightlord.. again, Incorrect assertions)... and then they continue this incorrect assertions all over the place.. that's why that book got decanonized.
Nightbane Survival guide continued some of the incorrect assertions, maybe the writer played the game that way.. but they're still wrong.

there is no mention of Vlad tepes in Nightbane proper. Not only that ... I do see where "rumors" say that night princes are "young" nightlords" .. but it makese no sense at all... Considering their role, their total lack of magic, and No human memories.
and it's entirely likely that the rest is done via arcane rituals. The book mentions 1200 BC as the last known nightlord "recruitment".


and according to this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12th_century_BC ... the Several things of importance occured : King Nebuchenezzar became ruler of babylon... The trojan war was fought and ended, Mycenean Rule Ended, and the Last of the 20th Dynasty of Pharoahs were crowned. Athens was being ruled by tyrants and Sparta was having similar troubles.


Also to note: It DOES say the nightlords Killed ENTIRE KINGDOMS to get where they wanted to be.

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Last edited by Rappanui on Fri Oct 18, 2013 10:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 5:36 am
  

Wanderer

Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 8:57 am
Posts: 93
Sorry this is a really late post but Vlad the Impaler is a vampire in Nightbane as well. I saw him just the other day while flipping through my book, one of the plots with the Nocturnes concerns 'Yuri the Mad' I believe. he was a ancient Master Vampire who somehow managed to turn away form his Inteligence...and then got discarded by the other god-being he worked for (the Nightlords?). he's currently trapped by the Nocturnes in a rom with lots of radiation that somehow limits his power.

I think it was Nightlands, or possibly the Survival Guide who mentioned him.


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