Breeding in Nightbane...

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Breeding in Nightbane...

Unread post by pblackcrow »

Can a doppelganger get impregnated by a human or a nightbane? If so, how would it reflect on the human counterpart in the real world? And what of the child of such a couple?
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Re: Breeding in Nightbane...

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Wih a human, ?? unknow(able)
With nightbane, no.
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Re: Breeding in Nightbane...

Unread post by Tinker Dragoon »

According to Nightbane, p. 158, "Dopplegangers are not born or created; they seem to manifest spontaneously in the Nightlands...."

From this, and from the fact that they are supernatural, not-exactly-biological creatures, one may reasonably infer that Dopplegangers are incapable of reproducing.
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Re: Breeding in Nightbane...

Unread post by pblackcrow »

Um, Tinker, with all do respect okay...Doppelgangers are supposedly the exact copy of us. And they are the pleasure toys of the nightlords. Why would the nightlords bother with having sex with a creature that they can not reproduce with? And Greek mythology speaks of nymphs coming from trees and yet they can breed with humans, centaurs, satyrs, etc with absolutely no problems. While sphinxes often require a cow to breed with...um, I think. Or is it gryphons that require the cow to breed? Anyway, don't know. It's one or the other.
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Re: Breeding in Nightbane...

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

pblackcrow wrote:Um, Tinker, with all do respect okay...Doppelgangers are supposedly the exact copy of us. And they are the pleasure toys of the nightlords. Why would the nightlords bother with having sex with a creature that they can not reproduce with? And Greek mythology speaks of nymphs coming from trees and yet they can breed with humans, centaurs, satyrs, etc with absolutely no problems. While sphinxes often require a cow to breed with...um, I think. Or is it gryphons that require the cow to breed? Anyway, don't know. It's one or the other.


However, palladiums offical rules is that mythology is wrong and it is completely impossible for such cross-species to exsist. that's why there are no half-elves, it's impossible to have a half-anything. Centaurs, satyres, minotaurs, ect, are completely different branchs of species, and exsisted eons before humanity. Nightlords are incapable of breeding with anything but other nightlords. and from what we've seen may not be inclined to breed whatsoever. See conversion book one.
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Re: Breeding in Nightbane...

Unread post by Tinker Dragoon »

pblackcrow wrote:Doppelgangers are supposedly the exact copy of us.


Yes, but they're created by unknown forces. While the book does mention child and pre-teen Dopplegangers, there's no mention of Doppleganger babies. It is possible that Dopplegangers exist in some sort of larval state prior to becoming a living person's duplicate, but this is pure speculation. So, given the evidence of the books, one must conclude that either A) Dopplegangers cannot reproduce themselves, or B) the offspring of a Doppleganger is not itself a Doppleganger.

And they are the pleasure toys of the nightlords. Why would the nightlords bother with having sex with a creature that they can not reproduce with?


You really have to ask why someone would have sex without the risk of unwanted consequences? :bandit:
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Re: Breeding in Nightbane...

Unread post by The Beast »

pblackcrow wrote:Why would the nightlords bother with having sex with a creature that they can not reproduce with?


For the same reasons that humans have sex while preventing reproduction.
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Re: Breeding in Nightbane...

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[quote="However, palladiums offical rules is that mythology is wrong and it is completely impossible for such cross-species to exsist. that's why there are no half-elves, it's impossible to have a half-anything. Centaurs, satyres, minotaurs, ect, are completely different branchs of species, and exsisted eons before humanity. Nightlords are incapable of breeding with anything but other nightlords. and from what we've seen may not be inclined to breed whatsoever. See conversion book one.[/quote]
REALLY??? What about ogres? They, sorta puts a glitch in that whole no crossbreeding situation now don't they.
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Re: Breeding in Nightbane...

Unread post by pblackcrow »

Tinker Dragoon wrote:
pblackcrow wrote:Doppelgangers are supposedly the exact copy of us.


Yes, but they're created by unknown forces. While the book does mention child and pre-teen Dopplegangers, there's no mention of Doppleganger babies. It is possible that Dopplegangers exist in some sort of larval state prior to becoming a living person's duplicate, but this is pure speculation. So, given the evidence of the books, one must conclude that either A) Dopplegangers cannot reproduce themselves, or B) the offspring of a Doppleganger is not itself a Doppleganger.

And they are the pleasure toys of the nightlords. Why would the nightlords bother with having sex with a creature that they can not reproduce with?


You really have to ask why someone would have sex without the risk of unwanted consequences? :bandit:

Eh, point taken I guess. But they are "gods", you would think they would find a way to do it to litter their land with halfbreeds. You know? Anyway, I am still not convened. And the reason why they aren't able to breed could be because they're in the nightlands, when they come to earth and kill the human counterpart they might be able to. I don't know. I don't buy that there are no half-kids of the Ba'al. Sorry.
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Re: Breeding in Nightbane...

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

pblackcrow wrote:[quote="However, palladiums offical rules is that mythology is wrong and it is completely impossible for such cross-species to exsist. that's why there are no half-elves, it's impossible to have a half-anything. Centaurs, satyres, minotaurs, ect, are completely different branchs of species, and exsisted eons before humanity. Nightlords are incapable of breeding with anything but other nightlords. and from what we've seen may not be inclined to breed whatsoever. See conversion book one.

REALLY??? What about ogres? They, sorta puts a glitch in that whole no crossbreeding situation now don't they.[/quote]

Not really, there will be of course explicitly stated exceptions to the rule, but that dosn't mean that the rule dosn't exsit, merely there are some expections to it. regardless if the exception isn't stated then the rule is they can't. Not that difficult a concept.
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Re: Breeding in Nightbane...

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

pblackcrow wrote:
Tinker Dragoon wrote:
pblackcrow wrote:Doppelgangers are supposedly the exact copy of us.


Yes, but they're created by unknown forces. While the book does mention child and pre-teen Dopplegangers, there's no mention of Doppleganger babies. It is possible that Dopplegangers exist in some sort of larval state prior to becoming a living person's duplicate, but this is pure speculation. So, given the evidence of the books, one must conclude that either A) Dopplegangers cannot reproduce themselves, or B) the offspring of a Doppleganger is not itself a Doppleganger.

And they are the pleasure toys of the nightlords. Why would the nightlords bother with having sex with a creature that they can not reproduce with?


You really have to ask why someone would have sex without the risk of unwanted consequences? :bandit:

Eh, point taken I guess. But they are "gods", you would think they would find a way to do it to litter their land with halfbreeds. You know? Anyway, I am still not convened. And the reason why they aren't able to breed could be because they're in the nightlands, when they come to earth and kill the human counterpart they might be able to. I don't know. I don't buy that there are no half-kids of the Ba'al. Sorry.


Uh, nothing says they are gods. Godlike in general power certainly, but they don't meet all the qualifiers for gods in the palladium-verse (although to be fair they do hit most of 'em)
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Re: Breeding in Nightbane...

Unread post by Armorlord »

I'd have to say a human and a fully awakened doppelganger might be possible. Still iffy though.
Nightbane is right out though. (Particularly since more canon has established that they cannot breed, and appear as foundlings on Earth. [Note: The bits in the Survival Guide are within the in character sections, and can be relied upon as well as anything Ms. Tarn has said that turned out to the an in character error.])

Actually, thinking on it more, I would lean more toward not allowing for doppelganger's breeding, they are too far from human. As others have noted, Palladium has generally taken a hard stance against crossbreeding in general, and with the ties to the Darklands and unaging nature of the awakened doppelgangers, they really aren't human, they just mirror a human.
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Re: Breeding in Nightbane...

Unread post by cornholioprime »

pblackcrow wrote:Can a doppelganger get impregnated by a human or a nightbane? If so, how would it reflect on the human counterpart in the real world? And what of the child of such a couple?
Doppelgangers appear to be (minor) True Supernatural Creatures that are a "soul echo" of the humans they emulate, they don't appear to actually be human themselves.

Those two hundred year-long lifespans are just one of the giveaways. :D


As far as the Nightbane themselves go, the fact that there aren't any Nightbane Children running around at all (AFAIK), would seem to indicate that they are no longer human either and, apparently, can't breed even amongst themselves, much less with a human (which is usually the case with True Supernatural Creatures in the Palladium setting).
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Re: Breeding in Nightbane...

Unread post by Solarius »

One of the Rifter stories recently stated that the nightbane was pregnant by another nightbane and gave birth to twins. which were statted out in the books.
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Re: Breeding in Nightbane...

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Solarius wrote:One of the Rifter stories recently stated that the nightbane was pregnant by another nightbane and gave birth to twins. which were stat'ed out in the books.

That is nice optional stuff.

When they specifically retcon the "All NB are Orphans" then it is still in force. And all those tables about family in NBSG are about their adoptive families.
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Re: Breeding in Nightbane...

Unread post by Armorlord »

Solarius wrote:One of the Rifter stories recently stated that the nightbane was pregnant by another nightbane and gave birth to twins. which were statted out in the books.
Always remember that the Rifter is optional fan-made material (unless specifically stated otherwise).
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Re: Breeding in Nightbane...

Unread post by Stone Gargoyle »

Nightbane have always seemed to me to be a form of undead, so it would not make sense for them to breed. The official rules seem to support them as unable to breed, also. Now, if there was a Morphus that made one look like a child and it was taken in by another Nightbane, I can see as to where it would be thought of as being offspring of that other Nightbane even though it isn't.
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Re: Breeding in Nightbane...

Unread post by Warwolf »

Several points (working backward):

1)Whether Nightbane can breed has intentionally left ambiguous so that G.M.s can decide for themselves based on what is best for their game/group.

2) Stories published in The Rifter are fan-fiction that was deemed good enough to put in the quarterly, it should never be taken as a reflection of what the rules of a setting will or will not allow.

3) The "all Nightbane are Orphans" issue has been officially changed. Kevin wanted it to change, Irvin and I certainly didn't mind the change. But it IS the canon now. As always, people are free to ignore this for their personal games.

4) The Nightlords are not "gods" in the traditional sense, though they do wield powers equivalent to gods and likely have those that worship them as such. Keep in mind, though, that much of their powers come from a being that could very well be a god.

5) By my reckoning, the Nightlords wouldn't WANT to procreate. How many rulers have been betrayed and toppled by their offspring? The whole biological imperative to procreate is so you're genetic lineage survives. The Nightlords are effectively immortal. And in the end, why mess with something as uncertain as impregnation when you can simply tailor-make whatever new life-forms you might want to bring about. Oooh... was that just a teaser for future Nightbane material? Maybe... :demon:

6) All Dopplegangers are (as a rule) sterile. However, in a setting where things like Fleshsculptors and Nightlords exist, where there is a will there may just be a way. Also, pblackcrow, if you want your Dopplegangers to bear children, nothing is stopping you from house-ruling that bit.
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Re: Breeding in Nightbane...

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Warwolf wrote:3) The "all Nightbane are Orphans" issue has been officially changed. Kevin wanted it to change, Irvin and I certainly didn't mind the change. But it IS the canon now. As always, people are free to ignore this for their personal games.


Please state what book/page/paragraph this is found.
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Re: Breeding in Nightbane...

Unread post by cornholioprime »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Warwolf wrote:3) The "all Nightbane are Orphans" issue has been officially changed. Kevin wanted it to change, Irvin and I certainly didn't mind the change. But it IS the canon now. As always, people are free to ignore this for their personal games.


Please state what book/page/paragraph this is found.
Yes.

I too am curious; and I didn't even see any such change in Irvin's (latest) book.

I always thought that the only thing that we knew for sure about them, is that they don't have Doppelgangers of Nightbane in the Nightlands.

EDIT: Never mind. The original (in-game) unnamed creator of the Nightbane Survival Guide speaks about how his own father tried to kill him all those many years ago, while his mother just wept with shock when he underwent his own Becoming.

Nightbane Survival Guide, page 10 and onward.
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Re: Breeding in Nightbane...

Unread post by Warwolf »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Warwolf wrote:3) The "all Nightbane are Orphans" issue has been officially changed. Kevin wanted it to change, Irvin and I certainly didn't mind the change. But it IS the canon now. As always, people are free to ignore this for their personal games.


Please state what book/page/paragraph this is found.


NBSG/Page 24/Theories of Origin paragraph 2.

NBSG/Page 51/There is a table for Birth Order.

And likely one or two other places like what CP mentioned above. I wanted to make sure it was clear that this had changed. It was one of the first issues Kevin and I talked about regarding the book before writing ever began. I even argued with him about what the original book said (and was right :P ) about the orphan issue, but agreed that it should be changed.

Cue the torches and pitchforks... again.
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Re: Breeding in Nightbane...

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

I note that in the "Origins" excerpt stated is "stated as an opinion of the speaker" which could be taken by the reader as a "crackpot theory" in itself. And that the rest of the section is full of other "theories" that is full of things people brainwashed into thinking that Evolution is the "is all-be all" of 'the origins of life' would come up with.

Birth order: This can be read two ways depending on the view point of the reader. With the one reading it as the age relationships between the members of the family that adopted them. While others see it as "this is :crane: proof they are not orphans.

Thus my point being is: There is Nothing Specific (not hinting, not saying things with the assumption that they were born, or other 'not quite saying so right out plainly') in the books that say that NB are a part of a race. All that the NBSG does is to muddy the waters even more then it was in the NBMB.

Then there is the admission from the front desk that things are written is a non-specific way (which I find stupid) so GMs can use the muddied waters to have their game the way they want it to be. Which they already had before hand, w/o getting the waters all muddied.
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Re: Breeding in Nightbane...

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

could be that they are part of a race, but one that until they awaken, is functionally and genetically the same as humans. with only ones under a certain age or experiencing the right conditions awakening into the full nightbane nature.

like the characters of the webcomic Skin Deep. until they turned, most of them didn't know they weren't human. of course, the comic explains it in its own fashion [spoiler alert: 1, 2, 3]. but the principle could be applied to nightbane. 'bane are magical/supernatural beings, but they are also human, at least in part. they could be a 'subset' of humanity that existed in plain sight (similar to psychics in BTS2, and probably due to similar evolutionary pressures..), but generally their full abilities don't trigger except under specific conditions.
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Re: Breeding in Nightbane...

Unread post by Warwolf »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:I note that in the "Origins" excerpt stated is "stated as an opinion of the speaker" which could be taken by the reader as a "crackpot theory" in itself. And that the rest of the section is full of other "theories" that is full of things people brainwashed into thinking that Evolution is the "is all-be all" of 'the origins of life' would come up with.

Birth order: This can be read two ways depending on the view point of the reader. With the one reading it as the age relationships between the members of the family that adopted them. While others see it as "this is :crane: proof they are not orphans.

Thus my point being is: There is Nothing Specific (not hinting, not saying things with the assumption that they were born, or other 'not quite saying so right out plainly') in the books that say that NB are a part of a race. All that the NBSG does is to muddy the waters even more then it was in the NBMB.

Then there is the admission from the front desk that things are written is a non-specific way (which I find stupid) so GMs can use the muddied waters to have their game the way they want it to be. Which they already had before hand, w/o getting the waters all muddied.


No, Drew, it is written from the standpoint of a Nightbane saying, "the theorists were wrong." It is not an opinion, it is a fact. As far as your first interpretation of the birth-order table, that is also wrong (as far as the official canon). If it was intended to convey placement in a sibling group alone it wouldn't have been called "birth" order. Trust me, the "all Nightbane are orphans" thing is dead and buried.

Regarding your point about evolution and the other theories... I am at a loss to even guess at what you're getting at there. The only theory presented that directly involves Darwin's theory of evolution is that of the Underground Railroad. Perhaps you could clarify what you meant a bit?

As far as Nightbane being a "race" that has nothing to do with whether or not they are born. The vast majority of races in the real world are born. How would being born disqualify Nightbane?

And finally, to the intentional obfuscation of the Nightbane origins: While you are entitled to your opinion, you may want to consider that there are those people out there who will not consider going against what an RPG sourcebook says. Even those that are willing I find are much more given to use their own creative thinking when less boundaries are imposed on it. In approaching the material in the way we are, we're trying to cater to those that like having room left for them in the material to make a lot of decisions about their game as well as the people that need some kind of grounding in the material to base their games on. I've talked with dozens of fans that love the flexibility and mystery this approach gives (at least partially because it's fun to try and figure it out/develop your own theories). You might also consider that the "muddied waters" are a relatively faithful portrayal of the game world of Nightbane. There are a lot of unknowns in the setting, a lot of questions left unanswered.

Believe me when I say that this wasn't just some off-the-cuff decision made by Kevin, Irvin, or myself. We've put a good deal of planning and consideration into the way the material is written and exactly how much of our hand to tip to the readers/fans. I'm sorry if not having more concrete answers leaves you frustrated, I truly am. But one thing we all agreed on was that it would be a bad idea for the forseeable future to out-and-out state, "Nightbane are X."
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