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Fenrir_Lokison · **Joined:** Sat Jan 31, 2009 7:47 pm **Posts:** 19

So, I am trying to find out what are the true limits of of the Nightlord's abilities. First I would like to start of with making sure I understand what they book wise cannot do...

1. Alter organic material. I am assuming this includes plants, flesh, bone, blood (at least now while it is pumping in a body), and living inorganic material (like stone and metal) of intelligent living beings that are naturally reproduced.
2. Alter living energy beings into another form. So a fire elemental could not be turned into a lightning or shadow elemental.
3. Convert energy into a solid mass (so no chairs made of light or cool looking weapons made from fire) nor convert matter into mass (so a car could not be turned into a massive fireball or turning an energy beam into an burst of butterflies).

With that in mind. Could a Nightlord us their abilitys on say...

1. Hounds, hunters, great hounds, and master hounds to the point where a Nightlord could have their own individual look for their hound forces?
2. Could a robot (or for that matter, a golem or the automatons) be created, altered, destroyed through the reshaping of its form? Please note...This includes non-living, but self-operating systems ran by an A.I. and not an actual sentient brain.
3. Could their abilities be used to mimic spells (even though casting a stone to flesh spell could stop a pc's attack), and thus this is why they do not tend to use magic?
4. What about non-living objects like a suit of armor or even mecha (if a Nightlord so happens to find themselves in such a world)?
5. Could their abilities be used to counter certain spells or even take over it? Could the even use their abilities against alien intelligence, lords of hell, and gods?
6. What about living matter that was altered into inorganic (technically non-living) matter? Could they be reshaped? And if so, assuming that such spells also affects the internal organs (I would not want to see what is in the center of a stone to flesh spell), would this mean the once living person takes on a fleshy version of the new form?
7. Sticking with #6. And if such a matter change is possible, what would become of the original altering power source (assuming the change is not permanent, say like a stone to flesh spell)? Does the person automatically gets reverted back at the end of the period, no matter the altered material? Or would the spell remain in place until the person is reverted back to the original stone material?

killgore444 · **Posted:** Wed Jan 11, 2023 1:15 am

Fenrir_Lokison wrote:

So, I am trying to find out what are the true limits of of the Nightlord's abilities. First I would like to start of with making sure I understand what they book wise cannot do...

1. Alter organic Living material. I am assuming this includes plants, flesh, bone, blood (at least now while it is pumping in a body), and living inorganic material (like stone and metal) of intelligent living beings that are naturally reproduced.

Corrected it. It can be use on any non-living matter/energy. The exceptions are apparently things like Hounds and Hunters which seem more like animated matter instead of lifeforms.

Makes me wonder if they can affect undead.

Quote:

With that in mind. Could a Nightlord us their abilitys on say...

1. Hounds, hunters, great hounds, and master hounds to the point where a Nightlord could have their own individual look for their hound forces?

Yes, easily. Nightlords create them, why couldn't they shape them. Note though, Head Dirtbag might have SOME minor say in how they look (along the lines of a couple of decades of torture for every single one that doesn't match the chosen look). :demon:

Quote:

2. Could a robot (or for that matter, a golem or the automatons) be created, altered, destroyed through the reshaping of its form? Please note...This includes non-living, but self-operating systems ran by an A.I. and not an actual sentient brain.

Yes, but not as easily. He'd have to KNOW how to do so. High end chemistry, metallurgy and electronics seems to be missing from their skill sets. :lol:

Quote:

3. Could their abilities be used to mimic spells (even though casting a stone to flesh spell could stop a pc's attack), and thus this is why they do not tend to use magic?

No. Their abilities are their abilities. Not that it matters, they are all VERY high end spell casters. I've always thought that there is more than a little bit of mental manipulation by 'The Dark' going on in their decision to use magic less and rely exclusively on the transmutation abilities. Maybe 'The Dark' is vulnerable to magic or something and doesn't want it's "Lords" (read playthings) to be able to overthrow it.

Quote:

4. What about non-living objects like a suit of armor or even mecha (if a Nightlord so happens to find themselves in such a world)?

I personally copied from the Pucara Red Giant in Rifts South America 2, and said it cost 30 PPE per pound to go back and forth between MDC/SDC.

Quote:

5. Could their abilities be used to counter certain spells or even take over it? Could the even use their abilities against alien intelligence, lords of hell, and gods?

Only if the spells worked on or created matter or energy. They could absorb a firebolt without issue, but a Inflict-Death ward would be unable to be so absorbed. As for the others, it would depend on if they are living or not. I personally am going with NO, they can not be affected.

Quote:

6. What about living matter that was altered into inorganic (technically non-living) matter? Could they be reshaped? And if so, assuming that such spells also affects the internal organs (I would not want to see what is in the center of a stone to flesh spell), would this mean the once living person takes on a fleshy version of the new form?

This is actually something to consider. Anyone turned back to flesh from stone suffers all the damage so inflicted, so opening him up would kill him when turned back.
But I also once included a witch in a D&D game who would turn people to stone and use stoneshape to alter their appearance, so, yeah, I'd go with it does work.

Quote:

7. Sticking with #6. And if such a matter change is possible, what would become of the original altering power source (assuming the change is not permanent, say like a stone to flesh spell)? Does the person automatically gets reverted back at the end of the period, no matter the altered material? Or would the spell remain in place until the person is reverted back to the original stone material?

No, he'd remain changed. If something was changed that wouldn't allow him to survive, then he'd die. Same as if he had his head knocked off before changing back.

Fenrir_Lokison · **Joined:** Sat Jan 31, 2009 7:47 pm **Posts:** 19

Fenrir_Lokison wrote:

So, I am trying to find out what are the true limits of of the Nightlord's abilities. First I would like to start of with making sure I understand what they book wise cannot do...

1. Alter organic material. I am assuming this includes plants, flesh, bone, blood (at least now while it is pumping in a body), and living inorganic material (like stone and metal) of intelligent living beings that are naturally reproduced.
2. Alter living energy beings into another form. So a fire elemental could not be turned into a lightning or shadow elemental.
3. Convert energy into a solid mass (so no chairs made of light or cool looking weapons made from fire) nor convert matter into mass (so a car could not be turned into a massive fireball or turning an energy beam into an burst of butterflies).

With that in mind. Could a Nightlord us their abilitys on say...

1. Hounds, hunters, great hounds, and master hounds to the point where a Nightlord could have their own individual look for their hound forces?
2. Could a robot (or for that matter, a golem or the automatons) be created, altered, destroyed through the reshaping of its form? Please note...This includes non-living, but self-operating systems ran by an A.I. and not an actual sentient brain.
3. Could their abilities be used to mimic spells (even though casting a stone to flesh spell could stop a pc's attack), and thus this is why they do not tend to use magic?
4. What about non-living objects like a suit of armor or even mecha (if a Nightlord so happens to find themselves in such a world)?
5. Could their abilities be used to counter certain spells or even take over it? Could the even use their abilities against alien intelligence, lords of hell, and gods?
6. What about living matter that was altered into inorganic (technically non-living) matter? Could they be reshaped? And if so, assuming that such spells also affects the internal organs (I would not want to see what is in the center of a stone to flesh spell), would this mean the once living person takes on a fleshy version of the new form?
7. Sticking with #6. And if such a matter change is possible, what would become of the original altering power source (assuming the change is not permanent, say like a stone to flesh spell)? Does the person automatically gets reverted back at the end of the period, no matter the altered material? Or would the spell remain in place until the person is reverted back to the original stone material?

killgore444 wrote:

Fenrir_Lokison wrote:

So, I am trying to find out what are the true limits of of the Nightlord's abilities. First I would like to start of with making sure I understand what they book wise cannot do...

1. Alter organic Living material. I am assuming this includes plants, flesh, bone, blood (at least now while it is pumping in a body), and living inorganic material (like stone and metal) of intelligent living beings that are naturally reproduced.

Corrected it. It can be use on any non-living matter/energy. The exceptions are apparently things like Hounds and Hunters which seem more like animated matter instead of lifeforms.

Makes me wonder if they can affect undead.

Quote:

With that in mind. Could a Nightlord us their abilitys on say...

1. Hounds, hunters, great hounds, and master hounds to the point where a Nightlord could have their own individual look for their hound forces?

Quote:

Yes, easily. Nightlords create them, why couldn't they shape them. Note though, Head Dirtbag might have SOME minor say in how they look (along the lines of a couple of decades of torture for every single one that doesn't match the chosen look). :demon:

So, in short, either through possibly self-imposed limits (or maybe even mental blocking), Nightlords maybe superficially prevented from having their own hound designs? That's an interesting thought.

Quote:

2. Could a robot (or for that matter, a golem or the automatons) be created, altered, destroyed through the reshaping of its form? Please note...This includes non-living, but self-operating systems ran by an A.I. and not an actual sentient brain.

Quote:

Yes, but not as easily. He'd have to KNOW how to do so. High end chemistry, metallurgy and electronics seems to be missing from their skill sets. :lol:

This goes then to canon, idea of the product writers, and the GM in what level of skill and imagination are the Nightlords limited to? Are such limitation by intent or self-imposed? Because, at least rules wise, there isn't anything limiting say a Nightlord from taking things like gemcutting or metallurgy or even more highly technical and engineering skills.

Quote:

3. Could their abilities be used to mimic spells (even though casting a stone to flesh spell could stop a pc's attack), and thus this is why they do not tend to use magic?

Quote:

No. Their abilities are their abilities. Not that it matters, they are all VERY high end spell casters. I've always thought that there is more than a little bit of mental manipulation by 'The Dark' going on in their decision to use magic less and rely exclusively on the transmutation abilities. Maybe 'The Dark' is vulnerable to magic or something and doesn't want it's "Lords" (read playthings) to be able to overthrow it.

Feeding on the idea that either the limits of their imaginations are either intentional or self-imposed. I think we have just opened a can of worms. If P.P.E. is just a form of energy connected to magic, and P.P.E. is just a burning of that energy. In theory, the Nightlords aren't really limited in what they can do magical. I would even dare say, they can create any magical effect they could conceive with the right motivation, training, and imagination. Or even better. What if the Nightlords have actually begun tapping into the supreme force that creates, molds, and destroys all things, but the only side the Nightlords are tapping into is the dark side of the energy which is fulled by their own desires and emotions and that maybe, there are Lightlords who found a way to tap into the life side of the energy and are actually capable of creating life and planets? But, kind of like the Ancients of Stargate, they refuse to interfer with the mortal world as the Nightlords do? And since (going Biblical here), evil really isn't that imaginative, they lack the power to create, but only can manipulate and influence (because we humans really cannot "create" anything, but through our mastery and knowledge of the matter and energy around us, we learn how to manipulate it into what we desire? We cannot create iron ore ourselves, but we sure can find it and apply our knowledge of blending it with other metals to "create" steel)

Quote:

4. What about non-living objects like a suit of armor or even mecha (if a Nightlord so happens to find themselves in such a world)?

Quote:

I personally copied from the Pucara Red Giant in Rifts South America 2, and said it cost 30 PPE per pound to go back and forth between MDC/SDC.

Nice idea. For complex items (or what the effect really is), boost up the P.P.E. requirement for the effect.

Quote:

5. Could their abilities be used to counter certain spells or even take over it? Could the even use their abilities against alien intelligence, lords of hell, and gods?

Quote:

Only if the spells worked on or created matter or energy. They could absorb a firebolt without issue, but a Inflict-Death ward would be unable to be so absorbed. As for the others, it would depend on if they are living or not. I personally am going with NO, they can not be affected.

Goes back to the concept above. What if this is not true, but that the Nightlords are not able to see magic as another energy source and essencially a part of their matter and energy control and conversion abilities? So by understand the energies around an Inflict-Death ward, they could produce an Inflict-Death ward in the form of an energy beam or aura, literally drawing the ward in mid-air, without materials, complex gesture, sound, or as a time consuming ritual.

Quote:

6. What about living matter that was altered into inorganic (technically non-living) matter? Could they be reshaped? And if so, assuming that such spells also affects the internal organs (I would not want to see what is in the center of a stone to flesh spell), would this mean the once living person takes on a fleshy version of the new form?

Quote:

This is actually something to consider. Anyone turned back to flesh from stone suffers all the damage so inflicted, so opening him up would kill him when turned back.
But I also once included a witch in a D&D game who would turn people to stone and use stoneshape to alter their appearance, so, yeah, I'd go with it does work.

Maybe, there needs to be some logical magical safeguards that come with spells like this, that prevents cleaver, mean, or otherwise wacky experimentation on someone turned to an inanimate material? ("And the journalist screamed when looked in the mirror and realized that while she was turned to stone, her form was altered to looklike Ann Dunn, a fugitive wanted by the police.")

Quote:

7. Sticking with #6. And if such a matter change is possible, what would become of the original altering power source (assuming the change is not permanent, say like a stone to flesh spell)? Does the person automatically gets reverted back at the end of the period, no matter the altered material? Or would the spell remain in place until the person is reverted back to the original stone material?

No, he'd remain changed. If something was changed that wouldn't allow him to survive, then he'd die. Same as if he had his head knocked off before changing back.

In short, what I am getting is that, if a Nightlord (who stops being petty and casts the stone to flesh spell) could essencial prevent the original spell from ending by turning the poor soul into another material because they would not be stone anymore. ("Wow Ms. Hotchkiss! Who is the artist who sculpted the statute of Olympic archer David Sureshot? I mean they nailed even the lines in his face when he is taking a shot, so lifelike. You know he's been missing for a year now?"

killgore444 · **Posted:** Wed Jan 11, 2023 7:04 am

Stone to flesh in this case was from AD&D/D&D and is basically Petrification from the Book of Magic, which is of permanent duration.

NMI · **Posted:** Thu Mar 30, 2023 6:22 pm

How about this - Can a Nightlord affect/manipulate Temporal Energy? ie the energy used in the TMNT Book - Transdimensional TMNT? I would say yes because they are dimensional travellers.

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