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Unread postPosted: Thu May 28, 2020 4:53 pm
  

D-Bee

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I was looking at the supernatural damage conversion chart for martial art hand to hand in Rifter #3. I realized that a supernatural punch for a PS of 00-15 for example does 4d6 SDC (based on d4) but if the same supernatural character is wielding a sword for example they would only do 1d6-2d6 SDC worth of damage. To me it doesn't seem correct that a supernatural strength character would deal less damage with a weapon going by that chart where a normal strength character would end up have a higher chance of dealing more damage 1d4 vs 1d6-2d6 with the same sword. Am I missing something here? Thanks


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Unread postPosted: Thu May 28, 2020 7:17 pm
  

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cbrekkas wrote:
I was looking at the supernatural damage conversion chart for martial art hand to hand in Rifter #3. I realized that a supernatural punch for a PS of 00-15 for example does 4d6 SDC (based on d4) but if the same supernatural character is wielding a sword for example they would only do 1d6-2d6 SDC worth of damage. To me it doesn't seem correct that a supernatural strength character would deal less damage with a weapon going by that chart where a normal strength character would end up have a higher chance of dealing more damage 1d4 vs 1d6-2d6 with the same sword. Am I missing something here? Thanks


There's been a few different rules covering this scenario, depending on which game you're playing. They tend to agree that you add the SNPS and weapon damage together (I think there may be one setting that just has you use whichever dice roll is higher). At least two settings state that the weapon takes damage if the total damage done is three ( ? ) times its maximum amount possible.


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Unread postPosted: Thu May 28, 2020 7:48 pm
  

D-Bee

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The Beast wrote:
cbrekkas wrote:
I was looking at the supernatural damage conversion chart for martial art hand to hand in Rifter #3. I realized that a supernatural punch for a PS of 00-15 for example does 4d6 SDC (based on d4) but if the same supernatural character is wielding a sword for example they would only do 1d6-2d6 SDC worth of damage. To me it doesn't seem correct that a supernatural strength character would deal less damage with a weapon going by that chart where a normal strength character would end up have a higher chance of dealing more damage 1d4 vs 1d6-2d6 with the same sword. Am I missing something here? Thanks


There's been a few different rules covering this scenario, depending on which game you're playing. They tend to agree that you add the SNPS and weapon damage together (I think there may be one setting that just has you use whichever dice roll is higher). At least two settings state that the weapon takes damage if the total damage done is three ( ? ) times its maximum amount possible.


Thanks


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Unread postPosted: Thu May 28, 2020 11:51 pm
  

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Greetings and Salutations. As stated, it depends on the setting. So, for example, Supernatural punch damage is 4D6 and the character is wielding a 2D6 weapon.

In Rifts and Palladium Fantasy, you inflict whichever is greater. So the character would deal 4D6 damage with the sword. This doesn't do more damage than a punch for the character, but may provide extra combat bonuses if you have the appropriate W.P. (in this example: W.P. Sword).

In Nightbane and HU2, both damages are added together. So the character deals 6D6 damage with the sword. I think there's another setting with the adding together rule, but I can't recall which off the top of my head.

If you mention the setting in question, I'm willing to provide a book and page number if you feel it would help. Farewell and safe journeys.

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Rifter #52; From Ruins to Runes (Living Rune Weapons; playable characters and NPC)
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Official PDF versions of Rifter #45, #52, and #55 can be found at DriveThruRPG.


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Unread postPosted: Fri May 29, 2020 1:20 am
  

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Prysus wrote:
Greetings and Salutations. As stated, it depends on the setting. So, for example, Supernatural punch damage is 4D6 and the character is wielding a 2D6 weapon.

In Rifts and Palladium Fantasy, you inflict whichever is greater. So the character would deal 4D6 damage with the sword. This doesn't do more damage than a punch for the character, but may provide extra combat bonuses if you have the appropriate W.P. (in this example: W.P. Sword).

In Nightbane and HU2, both damages are added together. So the character deals 6D6 damage with the sword. I think there's another setting with the adding together rule, but I can't recall which off the top of my head.

If you mention the setting in question, I'm willing to provide a book and page number if you feel it would help. Farewell and safe journeys.


RUE matches HU2.


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Unread postPosted: Fri May 29, 2020 10:43 am
  

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The Beast wrote:
RUE matches HU2.

Greetings and Salutations. If you have a book and page number that states as much I'm interested, but RUE and HU2 specifically do NOT agree in the sources I'm aware of.

RUE, page286, first column, bolded section heading wrote:
Supernatural Damage and Hand Weapons: [snip] either inflict the weapon damage plus P.S. damage bonus (in S.D.C.), or their own P.S. damage per Supernatural Strength, whichever is greater.

The words "either" "or" indicate a choice, not addition. This also states to add "P.S. damage bonus (in S.D.C.)" to the weapon, but a damage bonus should not be confused with punch damage.

Note: I double checked, and none of this is in the RUE Errata, so this isn't an issue of different printings.
HU2, page 294, second column, bolded section heading wrote:
Supernatural Damage and Hand Weapons: [snip] inflicts the weapon damage plus the P.S. damage as described in the previous table.

This one specifies that you add them together, instead of the explicit choice in RUE. So not the same.

Both of those sections are followed by the "Optional" rules for breaking weapons. Rifts also has some weapons that expressly allow punch damage and weapon damage tonbe added together per the weapon description. However, as that is part of the weapon description, those are exceptions to the rule.

So unless you have a different passage that contradicts the general rule presented, you're mistaken about them being the same. Farewell and safe journeys.

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Rifter #45; Of Bows & Arrows (Archery; expanding rules and abilities)
Rifter #52; From Ruins to Runes (Living Rune Weapons; playable characters and NPC)
Rifter #55; Home Away From Home (Quorian Culture; expanded from PF Book 9: Baalgor Wastelands)

Official PDF versions of Rifter #45, #52, and #55 can be found at DriveThruRPG.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:10 pm
  

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Prysus wrote:
In Rifts and Palladium Fantasy, you inflict whichever is greater.
In Nightbane and HU2, both damages are added together.


Rifts (and maybe PF, not sure) have some exceptions to the "greater, not sum" policy in certain weapons which say to add, like with Xiticix weapons, further complicating issues :)

Makes me wonder if NB/HU are linked somehow to share this rule, like how N&S/TMNT might be linked in how chars heal SDC at an hourly instead of daily rate.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2020 9:55 pm
  

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Axelmania wrote:
Prysus wrote:
In Rifts and Palladium Fantasy, you inflict whichever is greater.
In Nightbane and HU2, both damages are added together.


Rifts (and maybe PF, not sure) have some exceptions to the "greater, not sum" policy in certain weapons which say to add, like with Xiticix weapons, further complicating issues :)


Not really; it’s just a property of certain weapons.
Some swords are flaming; doesn’t complicate rules for other weapons any.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2020 6:23 pm
  

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Killer Cyborg wrote:
Not really; it’s just a property of certain weapons.
Some swords are flaming; doesn’t complicate rules for other weapons any.

The complication is that it's never (AFAIK) ever pointed out as a special property of the weapon. Like "unlike most MD melee weapons" or anything like that.

It happens so often that it gives the impression of a general rule.

Especially since there's never (AFAIK) a reminder to "don't add supernatural PS" under weapons which do not.

Just a generic rule about using the higher amount which many could overlook/forget.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2020 2:50 pm
  

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Axelmania wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Not really; it’s just a property of certain weapons.
Some swords are flaming; doesn’t complicate rules for other weapons any.

The complication is that it's never (AFAIK) ever pointed out as a special property of the weapon.


Flaming Swords don't bother pointing out that not every weapon can flame.
The way to judge these thing is simply by looking at whether or not the weapon description describes an ability, then looking at whether other weapons do.
IN this case, we have three (iirc) specific types of weapons that discuss adding supernatural punch damage to those weapons' attacks.
Other weapons describe no such ability, and such ability goes against the general rules for damage, so any weapon that does not describe that ability, lacks that ability.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 9:14 pm
  

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Killer Cyborg wrote:
Flaming Swords don't bother pointing out that not every weapon can flame.

I think that's pretty obviously not the same thing.

A better analogy would be if some flaming swords said "don't add PS damage bonuses, it's an energy weapon!" and other flame swords didn't.

Killer Cyborg wrote:
IN this case, we have three (iirc) specific types of weapons that discuss adding supernatural punch damage to those weapons' attacks.
Other weapons describe no such ability, and such ability goes against the general rules for damage, so any weapon that does not describe that ability, lacks that ability.

The problem with considering them "general rules for damage" is how they were squirreled away prior to RUE consolidating the note on pg 285. CB26 had no 'whichever is greater' when it introduced that table, leading to a longstanding (possibly 15 year unless I'm over-looking a pre-RUE amendment) assumption of adding it together like in Nightbane/HU2 would later explicitly say to do based on various Rifts weapons notes. RUE seems to have inherited the damage cap from PF2.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 9:56 pm
  

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Axelmania wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Flaming Swords don't bother pointing out that not every weapon can flame.

I think that's pretty obviously not the same thing.


I don't.
In both cases, you're looking at a weapon that specifically describes an ability, and does NOT state that the ability is limited to that weapon.

Quote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
IN this case, we have three (iirc) specific types of weapons that discuss adding supernatural punch damage to those weapons' attacks.
Other weapons describe no such ability, and such ability goes against the general rules for damage, so any weapon that does not describe that ability, lacks that ability.

The problem with considering them "general rules for damage" is how they were squirreled away prior to RUE consolidating the note on pg 285. CB26 had no 'whichever is greater' when it introduced that table, leading to a longstanding (possibly 15 year unless I'm over-looking a pre-RUE amendment) assumption of adding it together like in Nightbane/HU2 would later explicitly say to do based on various Rifts weapons notes. RUE seems to have inherited the damage cap from PF2.


They weren't squirreled away.
RGMG. Palladium Fantasy. Etc.

I don't know what "CB26" is supposed to be.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 10:35 pm
  

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Killer Cyborg wrote:
They weren't squirreled away.
RGMG. Palladium Fantasy. Etc.

Expecting Rifts players to adapt a PF rule (especially in contradiction to HU/NB stacking instructions) is squirreled to me.

As for the GM's guide, okay, page 26 did introduce SDAHW in 2001, but that still leaves an 11-year period of vagueness.

Plus that's still kinda squirrelly since you wouldn't necessarily expect an average player to get that guide.

Do we have any pre-2001 intros of the WIG (whichever is greater) text for SNPS wielding weapons?

Or perhaps any examples of monsters who ALWAYS add their SNPS damage to weapon damage, rather than relying on weapons which have special notes to do so?

Killer Cyborg wrote:
I don't know what "CB26" is supposed to be.

Pg 25 of conversion book. I should've said RCB, forgot this wasn't a Rifts thread.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 7:49 pm
  

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Axelmania wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
I don't know what "CB26" is supposed to be.

Pg 25 of conversion book. I should've said RCB, forgot this wasn't a Rifts thread.


No, what you should have said was what book you're talking about. There's four conversion books:
CB1 = original conversion book
CB1r = the version of that book post-RUE
CB2 = Pantheons of the Megaverse
CB3 or DC = the Dark Conversions book

Using RCB doesn't quite narrow it down enough. Now we could assume you meant CB1, but most of us here know what happens when people go assuming things.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 8:19 pm
  

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Axelmania wrote:
The problem with considering them "general rules for damage" is how they were squirreled away prior to RUE consolidating the note on pg 285. CB26 had no 'whichever is greater' when it introduced that table, leading to a longstanding (possibly 15 year unless I'm over-looking a pre-RUE amendment) assumption of adding it together like in Nightbane/HU2 would later explicitly say to do based on various Rifts weapons notes. RUE seems to have inherited the damage cap from PF2.

Greetings and Salutations. For the record, Rifts Conversion Book 1 (original) also didn't have a rule stating to punch and weapon damage. Up to this point, punch damage and weapon damage were never added together. There are combat examples where weapons deal damage, but they've never added punch damage.

So, for example, a human with a short sword (2D4) deals 2D4 damage, not 3D4 (or 4D4 if trained in a karate punch). So to alter those rules, you'd need a rule stating such. As for whether or not the information is "squirreled" away, the not adding punch damage has been the standard since the game started (as far as I'm aware). But beyond that ...

Rifts (original main book): 1990. Supernatural P.S. doesn't exist at this time.
Rifts Conversion Book (One, original): 1991. No statement. We would default to the standard rules.
Nightbane: 1995. This one adds them together with an explicit statement. Someone may figure this rule is meant to apply to Rifts, but this is guesswork.
Palladium Fantasy Second Edition: 1996. This does not add them together. This is given in an explicit statement.
Heroes Unlimited Second Edition: 1998. This one adds them together. This is listed in an explicit statement for the super power (one could argue it only applies to the major version).
Rifts GM Guide: 2001. Does not add them together, and stated in an explicit statement.

So, there's only 10 years in Rifts between the introduction to the rule and the clarification of the rule (which for Rifts is punches don't add to weapon damage). At worst, you'd have 6 years to make a false assumption if you use Nightbane as the source for your official Rifts rules.

As Killer Cyborg pointed out, specific weapons note their specific abilities, not general rules. Every weapon doesn't tell you how to roll strike, or how to roll damage. Also, since apparently this needs to be stated ... weapon abilities do NOT equal character abilities (unless otherwise stated). Farewell and safe journeys.

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Rifter #45; Of Bows & Arrows (Archery; expanding rules and abilities)
Rifter #52; From Ruins to Runes (Living Rune Weapons; playable characters and NPC)
Rifter #55; Home Away From Home (Quorian Culture; expanded from PF Book 9: Baalgor Wastelands)

Official PDF versions of Rifter #45, #52, and #55 can be found at DriveThruRPG.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2020 10:23 am
  

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Axelmania wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
They weren't squirreled away.
RGMG. Palladium Fantasy. Etc.

Expecting Rifts players to adapt a PF rule (especially in contradiction to HU/NB stacking instructions) is squirreled to me.


Write Kevin a letter letting him know your complaint.

Quote:
As for the GM's guide, okay, page 26 did introduce SDAHW in 2001, but that still leaves an 11-year period of vagueness.


No idea what "SDAHW" is.

Quote:
Do we have any pre-2001 intros of the WIG (whichever is greater) text for SNPS wielding weapons?


WIG?
Just write stuff out, man.
I'm not going to guess.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 1:10 am
  

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The Beast wrote:
what you should have said was what book you're talking about

before CB2 came out, CB1 was just CB, so CB with a number like 26 after it is clearly the 26th page of the first one

CB1 is actually just slang, "1" never appears on the cover. Sort of like "Terminator 1"


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Unread postPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 9:17 pm
  

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Axelmania wrote:
The Beast wrote:
what you should have said was what book you're talking about

before CB2 came out, CB1 was just CB, so CB with a number like 26 after it is clearly the 26th page of the first one


Not at all, because a number being ATTACHED to the abbreviation is the standard for listing volume, not page number.
"CB 26" would mean "Conversion Book, Page 26."
"CB26" would mean "Conversion Book Volume 26"

Quote:
CB1 is actually just slang, "1" never appears on the cover. Sort of like "Terminator 1"


You might want to check CB1r, which is the newest edition of that book IIRC.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 11:47 pm
  

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Killer Cyborg wrote:
"CB 26" would mean "Conversion Book, Page 26."
"CB26" would mean "Conversion Book Volume 26"

This would be a problem if I were quoting from the first three pages, but anybody who knows what "CB" is short for knows we don't have a double-digit count of conversion books, so it's a false dilemma.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 11:30 am
  

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Axelmania wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
"CB 26" would mean "Conversion Book, Page 26."
"CB26" would mean "Conversion Book Volume 26"

This would be a problem if I were quoting from the first three pages, but anybody who knows what "CB" is short for knows we don't have a double-digit count of conversion books, so it's a false dilemma.


It's not any kind of dilemma; you simply wrote things the wrong way, same as if you'd put an exclamation point in the middle of a sentence instead of a comma.
There's nothing to argue over.
It doesn't matter how or why you think people should decrypt your errors into understanding;
You're just wrong.

We can either argue back and forth about it for 3 pages (in which case you'll be wrong for three pages), or we can all just move on with our days, and you can try to write things properly in the future.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:40 pm
  

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Killer Cyborg wrote:
It's not any kind of dilemma; you simply wrote things the wrong way, same as if you'd put an exclamation point in the middle of a sentence instead of a comma.


There's no hard rules on how far you can abbreviate so long as context makes sense.

I can say "back in '99" if it's clear I mean 1999, but not if I might also mean 1899.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 8:33 pm
  

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Axelmania wrote:
There's no hard rules on how far you can abbreviate so long as context makes sense.

Greetings and Salutations. And since there were questions about what you were trying to abbreviate, things clearly didn't make sense. Though since you're not likely to listen to me ...

Axelmania wrote:
Throw together thousands/millions of people and generalize them and it risks erring.

You tried to generalize, and you erred.

Though, for the record, good practice for including acronyms is to introduce every acronym before using it in the text. The first time you use the term, put the acronym in parentheses after the full term. Thereafter, you can stick to using the acronym. Example: The International Olympic Committee (IOC) is headquartered in Switzerland.

So in the post that was called into question: "WIG (whichever is greater)" was close, and had that format been used consistently with the other acronyms you chose to use this probably wouldn't have been called into question. However, something like "CB26" leaves a lot of questions. For starters, the first word in the title is "Rifts," but you left out of your acronym. In addition, you didn't separate page number from the book title. Also, even if we figured you meant "Conversion Book" AND that the other part was a page number, there are three different books that fall into that category. In current printings and usage, Rifts Conversion Book One does have a number. Since you didn't include a number, we'd be left to guess which of the three. So with that acronym I could guess at the following ...

Rifts Chi-Town 'Burbs, page 26.
Rifts Conversion Book (One, original), page 26.
Rifts Conversion Book One, Revised, page 26.
Rifts Conversion Book Two, page 6.
Rifts Conversion Book Two, page 26.
Rifts Dark Conversions, page 26 (which is generally considered Conversion Book 3).
You made a typo since it doesn't follow the standard usage of acronyms for that book on these forums or in the books (for example, P.P.E. and S.D.C. are used regularly in the books, and generally accepted on these forums without explanation due to them being official book acronyms).
You meant something else entirely.

Axelmania wrote:
Quote:
You know exactly what we mean.

No, I actually don't. I have difficulty with these concepts.
[snip]
It is possible to mirror my good faith.

If you want to act in "good faith," then you should accept that not everyone will make the same assumptions as you. Instead, proceed with the concept that others may have "difficulty with these concepts," and aim to communicate in a way that will be clear to others. Farewell and safe journeys.

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Rifter #45; Of Bows & Arrows (Archery; expanding rules and abilities)
Rifter #52; From Ruins to Runes (Living Rune Weapons; playable characters and NPC)
Rifter #55; Home Away From Home (Quorian Culture; expanded from PF Book 9: Baalgor Wastelands)

Official PDF versions of Rifter #45, #52, and #55 can be found at DriveThruRPG.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:02 pm
  

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Axelmania wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
It's not any kind of dilemma; you simply wrote things the wrong way, same as if you'd put an exclamation point in the middle of a sentence instead of a comma.


There's no hard rules on how far you can abbreviate so long as context makes sense.


And your context made zero sense, since there is no Conversion Book 26.
So now you know, and can do better in the future.
:)

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:01 am
  

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I'm interested in looking up examples of weapons detailed in Rifts which explicitly stack SN PS damage with weapon damage. I know about a couple of cases, but my list is less than exhaustive.
Thanks in advance!


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:04 pm
  

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Curbludgeon wrote:
I'm interested in looking up examples of weapons detailed in Rifts which explicitly stack SN PS damage with weapon damage. I know about a couple of cases, but my list is less than exhaustive.
Thanks in advance!


Gargoyle weapons
Xiticix weapons
Mutant Bone Weapons from Madhaven.

I think that's about it, although IIRC the mutant insect supernatural strength tables in Mutants In Orbit uses punch damage for thrown boulders sometimes.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:36 pm
  

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Prysus wrote:
since there were questions about what you were trying to abbreviate,
things clearly didn't make sense

Only if KC truly did not have a good sense of it's probable meaning.
KC strikes me as a person with great intuitive powers.

Prysus wrote:
the first word in the title is "Rifts," but you left out of your acronym

No other system has a Conversion Book, so it's not needed. If I were discussing World Books outside of their game forums RWB/NWB/PWB would of course be needed if I had not established the context of which game's world book.

Unless of course I was counting 20+ because that's obviously Rifts-only, since NB/PF haven't counted that high.

Prysus wrote:
you didn't separate page number from the book title

Like "RMB10"? RMBp10 is certainly prettier, but not needed.

Come to think of it, I guess RMB could also mean "Robotech Main Book", should we maybe use "Ri" and "Ro" as shortforms rather than just R?

Prysus wrote:
there are three different books that fall into that category.
In current printings and usage, Rifts Conversion Book One does have a number.

I'd be fine referring to the revised edition as CBOR though I usually just call it CBR.

"One" was not part of the title on the original cover (much like "Fantasy" was not part of the title on the original cover of the Palladium RPG) so it feels wrong to include 'one' or "1" when referring to the non-revised edition. CB w/o number should obviously mean the first one. If I meant the series as a whole I'd say "CBs".

Prysus wrote:
Since you didn't include a number, we'd be left to guess which of the three.

Not really, if I say "I watched Terminator" it obviously means the first film "The Terminator", despite some people retroactively calling it "Terminator One" after "Terminator Two" came out.

Prysus wrote:
So with that acronym I could guess at the following ...

Rifts Chi-Town 'Burbs, page 26.

First-come first-serve for initialisms, I've never seen anyone abbreviate Burbs that way. You'd probably shorten Chi-Town to "CT" so it would be RCTB.

Prysus wrote:
Rifts Conversion Book (One, original), page 26.
Rifts Conversion Book One, Revised, page 26.

Your use of parenthesis shows you are aware that the one is retroactive and not properly part of the title.

I might for example, in respect to RUE, describe the 1990 edition of Rifts as "Rifts Original Edition" or ROE but it'd be weird to expect people to do that since it's not the actual title of the game.

Prysus wrote:
Rifts Conversion Book Two, page 6.
Rifts Conversion Book Two, page 26.

Neither would be used that way, I don't entertain this as an actual consideration.

You would not omit the Two/2 if specifing the second book, and any time you end a book title with a number you would obviously use some kind of separation before using the number of the page.

Prysus wrote:
Rifts Dark Conversions, page 26 (which is generally considered Conversion Book 3).

You would say RDC26/DC26 or RCB3p26/CB3p26

A "p" or "pg" divider before the number isn't needed for the first conversion book except for the niche situation of referring to the 2nd or 3rd page.

Prysus wrote:
You made a typo since it doesn't follow the standard usage of acronyms for that book on these forums or in the books (for example, P.P.E. and S.D.C. are used regularly in the books, and generally accepted on these forums without explanation due to them being official book acronyms).
You meant something else entirely.

It occurs to me that there are potentially at least two subsets of typos:
1) intentionally spelling something a certain way, with others disagreeing on that spelling
2) accidentally spelling something a certain way

We're talking about the first situation, whereas hitting keys in the wrong order w/o noticing (ie "tlaking" instead of "talking") would be the 2nd kind.

It also is worth noting that my above using of "tlaking" is not a typo at all, since it is not an error to intentionally spell a word wrong as an example.

Prysus wrote:
If you want to act in "good faith," then you should accept that not everyone will make the same assumptions as you.
Instead, proceed with the concept that others may have "difficulty with these concepts," and aim to communicate in a way that will be clear to others.

There is always some amount of speculation involved. I for example usually write PPE instead of P.P.E. despite it being standard format in books to include the periods after each of the three letters. I expect people know what I will mean.

Killer Cyborg wrote:
your context made zero sense, since there is no Conversion Book 26.
So now you know, and can do better in the future.
:)

The well-known fact there are not 20+ conversion books is exactly why it DID make sense.

To use a PF analogy, if you wrote "MOM26" I'd know you meant page twenty-six of the first book in the Mysteries of Magic series (The Heart of Magic).

Even after the 2nd book (Dark Magicks) comes out, I'd still know that's what you meant.

MOM w/o MOM2 obviously refers to the first book even after additional ones come out. Even though 'MOM1' is slightly clearer ( and more accurate since the original cover actually DID include a number, unlike the CB/RCB) it isn't mandatory.

You can see this for example in the Amazon listing for Sedition: https://www.amazon.ca/Rifts-Siege-on-To ... 1574570455

They don'e even include "Chapter One" in their writeup despite it appearing on the cover.

Plus if anyone says "Coalition Wars" : at this point it has for such a long time exclusively meant the Siege on Tolkeen hexalogy (septalogy including Aftermath) that even if Palladium does finally make "Coalition Wars Two : Bombing New Lazlo" you'd always assume "CW" on its own to mean the original series despite "CW2" being used to describe the 2nd BNL series.

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Gargoyle weapons
Xiticix weapons
Mutant Bone Weapons from Madhaven.

I think that's about it, although IIRC the mutant insect supernatural strength tables in Mutants In Orbit uses punch damage for thrown boulders sometimes.

I'd have to check but I feel like certain NPC weapons (like god's rune weapons) might have occasionally noted it too, but I'd have to dig out my books to double-check that. In terms of mass-produced accessible ones the first two were the only ones I could recall, nice catch with the MBWs from MH tho


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Unread postPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:45 pm
  

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Comment: Being a moderator doesn't mean I speak for Palladium Books. It just makes me the lifeguard at their pool.
Not sure why we're discussing acronyms instead of the topic of the post.

Cut it out


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Unread postPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 12:39 am
  

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Check Thor’s hammer & gauntlets.
They may have allowed him to add punch damage to weapons.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:25 pm
  

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Killer Cyborg wrote:
Check Thor’s hammer & gauntlets.
They may have allowed him to add punch damage to weapons.


You're thinking of his "Belt of Might" (CB2p150) Megingiord. Mortals who wear it only see PS doubled. When Thor wears it he only gets a +10 (60 grows to 70) but his SDC PS damage bonus converts to MD (it "only applies to Thor").

Lord Coake's belt is similar if I recall, plus Dagda (probably his mighty beard) and Galahad (probably his mighty mohawk) seem to enjoy that as some kind of unexplained natural ability.

Just realized... this makes him horrible at avoiding hurting people with restrained punches... it boosts that from 1D6 MD to 1D6+55 MD. I guess there's still "Pull Punch" to save the day (he has a +9 bonus to that)

Mjolnir is probably a good example of a "don't stack" argument, since it actually mentions it doing 4D6x10+55 MD if used with the Belt of Might. If his usual full strength punch damage of 1D6x10 stacked you'd probably expect that to be 5D6x10.

Plus Mjolnir explicitly does "same damage whether thrown or used as a blunt weapon" and in cases where you add SNPS punch dmg to weapons, it's probably implied (if not explicitly stated) that this would just be for HTH use and not throwing use...

I should probably double-check Xiticix Invasion to be sure though...

WB23p79 mentions the Xiticix Spear is "1D6+3 MD as a stabbing, slashing or thrown weapon, + Supernatural PS punching damage" which sounds like you add the punching damage to thrown too...

I wonder where I'm getting this idea you don't add punch damage to thrown weapons... can't find support for the assumption... maybe it was bow/arrow I'm thinking of?


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Unread postPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:56 pm
  

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Offhand Northen Gun melee weapons (NG-B10 Bangstick, NG-B20 Bangstick Hammer, NG-B30 Bangstick Staff, NG-B40 Big Bangstick, NG-B50 ‘Thunderer’ BigBore Combat Hammer), Xiticix weapons, mutant bone weapons, kesentite weapons, some cybernetic/bionic weapons (Hydraulic Hammer Hand, Retractable Knuckle Blades) and Crystal Combat Gauntlet deal weapon damage + punch damage.

* phase sword deals weapon + strength bonus so it gets a special mention.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 4:57 pm
  

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elecgraystone wrote:
Offhand Northen Gun melee weapons (NG-B10 Bangstick, NG-B20 Bangstick Hammer, NG-B30 Bangstick Staff, NG-B40 Big Bangstick, NG-B50 ‘Thunderer’ BigBore Combat Hammer)
some cybernetic/bionic weapons (Hydraulic Hammer Hand, Retractable Knuckle Blades)
and Crystal Combat Gauntlet

anyone recall books these are in?


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:50 pm
  

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Comment: They/Them
Phase Sword: DB2 pg 124
Gargoyle weapons: WB5 pp 210-213
Xiticix melee weapons: WB23 pp 77-81
Mutant bone weapons: WB29 pp 81-82
NG melee weapons: WB33 pp 206-208
Crystal Combat Gauntlet: DB15 pg 142
Bionics: Sourcebook 5 et al: Hydraulic Hammer Hand pg 106, Retractable Knuckle Blades pg 93, Pneumatic Punching Jackhammer Arm pg 91 (additional damage on last entry scales differently than punch damage)
Kisentite weapons: AUr pg 175 (but I don't see anything stating the addition of SN punch damage, so perhaps it's in another reference?)

Soul Weapons: WB35 pg 110 do 4d6 or add 1d6 to punch damage, whichever is higher.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 2:00 pm
  

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Curbludgeon wrote:
NG melee weapons: WB33 pp 206-208

"1D4 M.D. +P.S. M.D. punch damage if the user has a P.S. capable of inflicting M.D."

Nice, never noticed this. You've established an impressive pattern which really seems to consistently conflict with RUE's writeup...

Kind of like if there were a bunch of supernatural beings who could die of old age or who didn't respawn after their death.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 6:00 pm
  

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If you've ever watched Forged in Fire, and seen the damage the not well crafted knives and swords take during the strength test. Then you can immagom the damage that using a sword with SN SP can do to even well crafted weapons.

My opinion is that for a melee weapon to stand up to SNPS used at full str. they have to be MDC or indestructible.
Now when I say MDC it is as in MDC. Not as MD.
Even then if the damage score of a strike is over the MDC of the melee weapon I would give it a % for breaking (probity made up on the spot relative to how much over the MDC the MD score is), and if the weapon didn't break then roll another % vs another % (made up on the spot like the last) to see if it takes damage.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 12:23 pm
  

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Comment: "Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing..." -Zer0 Kay
Axelmania wrote:
Curbludgeon wrote:
NG melee weapons: WB33 pp 206-208

"1D4 M.D. +P.S. M.D. punch damage if the user has a P.S. capable of inflicting M.D."

Nice, never noticed this. You've established an impressive pattern which really seems to consistently conflict with RUE's writeup...

Kind of like if there were a bunch of supernatural beings who could die of old age or who didn't respawn after their death.


Like finding holes in a colander.

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