Readying a weapon

[Fermat]

I've always run that pulling out your weapon requires an attack. It may require more if it isn't in a convenient holster or scabbard, but not having it ready means you need to spend an attack getting ready. However, while explaining the combat system to my players, I noticed that such a rule doesn't seem to exist. While I think its logical, is there anything canon that supports this ruling?

[Tor]

I'm pretty sure I've seen rules like this scattered throughout various books, the trick is finding them, I don't remember them being in any memorable sort of sections.

Makes me wonder if I'm reverse-engineering it from stuff like Cyber-Knight psi-swords being special because they don't take an action to make.

[Prysus]

I've always run that pulling out your weapon requires an attack. It may require more if it isn't in a convenient holster or scabbard, but not having it ready means you need to spend an attack getting ready. However, while explaining the combat system to my players, I noticed that such a rule doesn't seem to exist. While I think its logical, is there anything canon that supports this ruling?

Greetings and Salutations. I've always ruled that drawing a weapon requires an action/attack. However, I don't think there's any such ruling in the books. In fact, while looking, I think I may have found some evidence to the contrary.

Iai-Jutsu (from Ninjas & Superspies, page 122). This is the "sword-drawing art" and allows you to draw a weapon quickly. At no point does it state not taking an action, but that it grants a bonus to initiative only.

Quick Draw abilities/skills (such as those granted by Sharpshooting or various O.C.C. in Rifts New West) also provide initiative bonuses only (nothing about not costing an action, or that it does for that matter).

When looking at these abilities/skills, and trying to figure how this most logically applies to the rules, I believe that the intent is drawing a weapon is part of initiative. Initiative indicates who gets to attack first, and drawing a weapon quickly grants an initiative bonus. So getting to attack first (winning initiative) means you got your weapon out first, but doesn't really cost an attack/action. That's at least what these techniques (to me) would indicate. How this would interact with a weapon that's already drawn is unclear.

Interestingly, I had never looked at the rules in this type of way before. However, while looking for proof that drawing a weapon costs an attack/action, I keep finding these rules that seem to suggest otherwise (tying it to initiative only). So I actually changed my viewpoint since I started my response. How would I rule it at this point?

Initiative is tied to drawing weapons. If a weapon is already drawn, I might allow a small initiative bonus (+1, maybe a +2 or +3 if it's also already aimed), but this part would be a total house rule. Once combat has begun (ergo, any time initiative is not being rolled), changing weapons costs an attack/action. That's just my view on things.

I'm pretty sure I've seen rules like this scattered throughout various books, the trick is finding them, I don't remember them being in any memorable sort of sections.

Makes me wonder if I'm reverse-engineering it from stuff like Cyber-Knight psi-swords being special because they don't take an action to make.

Some Cyber-Knight psi-swords don't cost an action to summon. Some (such as unique shapes and/or colors) do cost an attack (or more). This is also (at times) referred to as similar to the Mind Melter psi-sword (which also costs time to summon). Stating the Cyber-Knight version doesn't cost an attack is important, but it does not necessarily indicate how any other rules interact with it. If you can find other proof, I will be interested in hearing it though.


Farewell and safe journeys to all.

[Killer Cyborg]

I'm pretty sure it's referenced somewhere, but I can't recall where.

If nothing else, I'd think that it would fall under the "Common Sense" banner.

[Prysus]

I'm pretty sure it's referenced somewhere, but I can't recall where.

If nothing else, I'd think that it would fall under the "Common Sense" banner.

Greetings and Salutations. Well, upon seeing the word of Killer Cyborg say it's referenced somewhere, I decided to do a few basic checks (which I didn't do earlier because I didn't think Palladium directly addressed the matter ... and I'm still procrastinating doing any productive work). This is what I found ...

Rifts GM Guide (second printing), page 32: "What is a melee attack?" The question uses ninjas as its example. Within the answer we see: "Drawing a sword is one action and striking is a second action."

So they do say that drawing a sword (we can deduce weapons in general) is an action. Now I'm even more confused on how this relates back to the quick draw aspects and initiative bonuses. *Rubs temples.* And this is why I usually avoid looking too hard into the rules. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Tor]

Some Cyber-Knight psi-swords don't cost an action to summon. Some (such as unique shapes and/or colors) do cost an attack (or more).

Yeah I know, just meant the basic kind. I didn't say psi-weapon or 'pointlessly white' after all.

This is also (at times) referred to as similar to the Mind Melter psi-sword (which also costs time to summon).

In that they are both psi-swords, yes.

Stating the Cyber-Knight version doesn't cost an attack is important, but it does not necessarily indicate how any other rules interact with it. If you can find other proof, I will be interested in hearing it though.

Not sure what other rules you're talking about.

[Alrik Vas]

Prysus, reread the quick draw skill. If i'm not mistaken it actually says something about drawing and attacking immediately. I think it makes sense that it wouldn't cost an attack.

[Killer Cyborg]

I'm pretty sure it's referenced somewhere, but I can't recall where.

If nothing else, I'd think that it would fall under the "Common Sense" banner.

Greetings and Salutations. Well, upon seeing the word of Killer Cyborg say it's referenced somewhere, I decided to do a few basic checks (which I didn't do earlier because I didn't think Palladium directly addressed the matter ... and I'm still procrastinating doing any productive work). This is what I found ...

Rifts GM Guide (second printing), page 32: "What is a melee attack?" The question uses ninjas as its example. Within the answer we see: "Drawing a sword is one action and striking is a second action."

So they do say that drawing a sword (we can deduce weapons in general) is an action. Now I'm even more confused on how this relates back to the quick draw aspects and initiative bonuses. *Rubs temples.* And this is why I usually avoid looking too hard into the rules. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Prysus]

Prysus, reread the quick draw skill. If i'm not mistaken it actually says something about drawing and attacking immediately. I think it makes sense that it wouldn't cost an attack.

Greetings and Salutations. If you're trying to argue "common sense" I might agree. However, my goal had been trying to figure out what the rules/book actually says. Now we have an actual ruling via RGMG (page 32), but the Quick Draw aspects are still ... unclear?

RUE (page 327, Quick Draw Skill): "... the character gets an initiative bonus to draw and fire or throw his weapons much faster at the first sign of danger."

New West (page 94, Gunslinger Quick Draw ability): "Remember, the winner of the initiative roll shoots first."

N&S (page 122, Iai-Jutsu): "... the "sword-drawing art," but used here for its extreme quickness. The character simply gets a bonus on initiative."

None of the Quick Draw examples listed above say anything about it not costing an action (or that it does), but the ability to quickly draw a weapon only provides an initiative bonus. Now, technically the rule might be that the "Quick Draw" aspect gives you initiative first. You draw (action 1). Then your enemy draws (action 1). Then you fire (action 2). Then the enemy can fire (action 2), if still living and/or simultaneous attacking.

However, to me, given the Quick Draw examples and the various other combat examples (winner of initiatives getting to attack/shoot first), it would seem that drawing a weapon (at least at the start of a melee round) is part of initiative. That's at least the impression these rules give me. Now keep in mind that I've always had drawing weapons (or switching weapons) to cost an action in my games. Just that, by reading these abilities and knowing the Palladium combat system, I'd argue this is how the rule was intended (drawing a weapon is part of initiative).

That's all for now. Farewell and safe journeys.

[Tor]

Drawing weapons not counting as the first action I could only see applying if done in a peaceful scenario where the opponents allow each other to prepare.

There's also the situation of surprise attacks and stuff...

Like for example, a Ninja stabs a samurai in the back, surprise attack so automatic initiative. Samurai spends first action drawing his sword. 2nd action, Ninja stabs again in the back.

When someone is behind you, do you have to spend an action to turn around so they're no longer at your back? Or use some special combination maneuver? Not totally clear on that bit.

[Alrik Vas]

It's a decent point, but it's going a bit off base, Tor.

Prysus, i agree it never says. I'm just going with sense.

Again, though Tor, turning around, draw and strike in the same motion could be possible i think. It just falls under moving while attacking with maybe an additional penalty thrown in because you're drawing at the same time. That's how I'd do anyway.

[Tor]

Drawing and turning aren't attacking though...

One penalty I would like to see though... how about while spending an action to draw, you lose your auto-parry?

It makes sense to me, because if you weren't drawing, you could do a parry with your arms, but they are busy readying the weapon. But until the drawing is complete, the weapon isn't fully out to do a parrying motion yet.

I don't know how to work in turning though, TBH. Even N&SS did a basic oversimplified combat range system and didn't much deal with direction changes.

Sure, it had some moves about attacking people behind you without turning, but nothing about whether turning costs you anything, begging the question of why you would even use them barring obscuer situations like "I can't look back or I'll turn to salt" or "my foot is cemented to the ground"

[Alrik Vas]

It's a maneuver in Iaido to draw your blade and strike in any direction needed. They train to do that in less than a second.

Honestly, the biggest obstacle should be the knife in your back.

[Tor]

It's a maneuver in Iaido to draw your blade and strike in any direction needed. They train to do that in less than a second.

Triggers can be pulled and lasers travelled in such segments too. I figure why some melee actions take less time is the time taken reacting to moving opponents, selecting a target, choosing a moment, etc.

[Alrik Vas]

actually, a competition shooter can clear a 1911 and all 7 rounds in about two seconds with amazing accuracy at close range...and from the "hands up" position. They train to shoot assuming someone got the drop on them...kind of like iaido, really.

[Thinyser]

I count it under the initiative, and if they already have a weapon drawn then they get a +6 initiative bonus. I think that the +6 is significant but not overwhelming which is why I went with it.

[Thinyser]

actually, a competition shooter can clear a 1911 and all 7 rounds in about two seconds with amazing accuracy at close range...and from the "hands up" position. They train to shoot assuming someone got the drop on them...kind of like iaido, really.

True, and pretty amazing to see.