Dodge earthquake?

[Thinyser]

So the 8th level earth warlock spell Earthquake says "Saving Throw: Dodge line of rippling fissure and falling debris."
The spell effects a 60'/level length and width. So at level 8 it would be 480 feet wide and long (maximum, the warlock can shorten the length and narrow width). But even at the base 60' how could anybody "dodge" this? Other than flight/levitation etc.

[say652]

A juicer could probably flip jump and tumble and escape undamaged.

[Thinyser]

A juicer could probably flip jump and tumble and escape undamaged.

Maybe, when its only 60' wide since they have to go 30'. But not many others can match a juicer when it comes to dodge.

I figure a dodge is no more than you can jump away from a stand still or with a couple steps... any more than that and you are "running away" not dodging.

[say652]

In heroes unlimited. The massively powerful
Aps metal/stone take damage in an Earthquake. Says it in the power description.

I can see a "normal" dodge offering half damage and a roll with punch actually not being possible as the very ground beneath you us torn asunder by magic.

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

I'm not going to bother with looking it up right now (just cause I'm tired, not cause I'm a jerk that way), but you mentioned it was an 8th level spell (pc doesn't get it until L , not a lower level spell advanced to level 8. With that in mind I'd reread the descriptive text to make sure you've got it right. It could vastly alter the AoE for the spell and thus change the range needed to dodge.

That's at least what comes to mind.

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. You have a few parts of the spell wrong (using my PF2, 6th Printing as my source material).

The spell affects 60 feet (per level) in length only (it even specifies "long" with no mention of width in this sentence), not width (you added the width part). This is the "epicenter" mentioned. Imagine a big crack forming in the ground. You cam jump to one side or the other of it (dodge), but if you don't you fall into the fissure and take damage.

Then there's the 100 feet on each side (so 200 foot width). This damage is done to buildings, and those within them. Those inside the buildings take damage from the debris, which can be dodged. Note: If you're within this range but not in a building suffer minor damage and penalties (which cannot be dodged or otherwise avoided from the look of things, but is minor in comparison and not a subject for the dodge the spell mentions and is the topic here).

The Warlock can control the length and width, but they are not the same thing. You can dodge the "line of rippling fissure and falling debris" but not the Earthquake itself.

Hope that helps. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys to all..

[Thinyser]

Greetings and Salutations. You have a few parts of the spell wrong (using my PF2, 6th Printing as my source material).

The spell affects 60 feet (per level) in length only (it even specifies "long" with no mention of width in this sentence), not width (you added the width part). This is the "epicenter" mentioned. Imagine a big crack forming in the ground. You cam jump to one side or the other of it (dodge), but if you don't you fall into the fissure and take damage.

Then there's the 100 feet on each side (so 200 foot width). This damage is done to buildings, and those within them. Those inside the buildings take damage from the debris, which can be dodged. Note: If you're within this range but not in a building suffer minor damage and penalties (which cannot be dodged or otherwise avoided from the look of things, but is minor in comparison and not a subject for the dodge the spell mentions and is the topic here).

The Warlock can control the length and width, but they are not the same thing. You can dodge the "line of rippling fissure and falling debris" but not the Earthquake itself.

Hope that helps. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys to all..

We must extrapolate the width (for the fissure) because it never indicates HOW wide it really is. It does mention the destructive zone extends 100' on either side of the fissure but never says how wide the fissure truly is.

See you have to give the fissure some width because it cannot be a "fissure" without width. So the choice is either make up an arbitrary number like 12" or 3' or 10' or 20', or extrapolate from the fact that it states that the warlock can control the length and the width of the quake and assume this means both the length and the width of the fissure can be a max of 60' per level of the warlock. To me its more logical to assume that the max width of the fissure is the same as the max length rather than assigning an arbitrary number. Then the destructive zone extends beyond however big the warlock made the fissure since it never states that he can control the area of extended damage on either side of the fissure.

Of course this is just my interpretation, but I think it make the most logical sense since there must be width to have a fissure and I would rather extrapolate from what is in the write up than pick an arbitrary number whenever possible. YMMV.

[Glistam]

I'd say the fissure's width is negligible - a few feet at best. The ground is cracking along the fissure point, creating a localized and devastating earthquake, but it's not creating a yawning chasm. There's a level 5 spell to accomplish that.

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. So your more logical conclusion is...

When it says you can control the length and width of the "quake" it really means fissure (and quake is a typo), because it never mentions you can control the size of the quake. Interesting.

And you feel that making the fissure a circular hole that can't be dodged makes more sense than thinking it's a fissure that can be dodged like the text says. Also interesting.

My issue with that type of logic is that it ignores parts of what's written and faults it for not making sense, because it's the logical conclusion to you. I'm more of the belief that if my interpretation causes the spell to NOT make sense, then it's probably the wrong one. Your mileage may vary.

With that said, I agree the fissure needs a width. Though we have no information on that width. If you are to dodge the fissure and/or falling debris, we also need numbers to beat, which are also not provided. By no means will I argue the spell has all the figures included, merely that when you have to change text and cause it to make no sense that you've probably made a wrong turn and might want to reevaluate that interpretation. One of our ways follows the text as written, and has a few numbers left out. And one of our ways changes the text written, makes dodging impossible (even though the spell says you can), and still leaves numbers out.

I cannot say without any doubt mine is the correct way, since I didn't write it. All I can say is I didn't change the text to reach my conclusion, the spell still works as written my way, and that's why I find it more logical. Farewell and safe journeys to all.

[Prysus]

P.S. And just for fun, try looking up the definition of "fissure" and see if the concept of a 480 foot square or circular hole fits the description.

[Thinyser]

I'd say the fissure's width is negligible - a few feet at best. The ground is cracking along the fissure point, creating a localized and devastating earthquake, but it's not creating a yawning chasm. There's a level 5 spell to accomplish that.

So you don't think a level 8 spell that costs more PPE, effects a larger area (or at least a longer one since the 8th lvl spell is so vague), and does massively more damage would open a reasonably sized (ie larger than the chasm spell) fissure?

EDIT: I can see where you are coming from though, they are not identical spells and may not be meant to be the same, but IMO they seem very similar. To me Earthquake is like Chasm on steroids. More or less the same but bigger and more destructive.

[Thinyser]

Greetings and Salutations. So your more logical conclusion is...

When it says you can control the length and width of the "quake" it really means fissure (and quake is a typo), because it never mentions you can control the size of the quake. Interesting.

And you feel that making the fissure a circular hole that can't be dodged makes more sense than thinking it's a fissure that can be dodged like the text says. Also interesting.

My issue with that type of logic is that it ignores parts of what's written and faults it for not making sense, because it's the logical conclusion to you. I'm more of the belief that if my interpretation causes the spell to NOT make sense, then it's probably the wrong one. Your mileage may vary.

With that said, I agree the fissure needs a width. Though we have no information on that width. If you are to dodge the fissure and/or falling debris, we also need numbers to beat, which are also not provided. By no means will I argue the spell has all the figures included, merely that when you have to change text and cause it to make no sense that you've probably made a wrong turn and might want to reevaluate that interpretation. One of our ways follows the text as written, and has a few numbers left out. And one of our ways changes the text written, makes dodging impossible (even though the spell says you can), and still leaves numbers out.

I cannot say without any doubt mine is the correct way, since I didn't write it. All I can say is I didn't change the text to reach my conclusion, the spell still works as written my way, and that's why I find it more logical. Farewell and safe journeys to all.

Very good points. When you get right down to it its just a horribly written spell. Yes I do think that they mistakenly used quake instead of fissure as it says the fissure will extend 60' per level of the caster and then the next line says that the caster can control the length and width of the quake. Quake was likely used her to avoid repeating the word fissure but who knows. Maybe they really meant the 100 foot to either side can be lessened when they refer to width and not the width of the fissure.

The text of the description does not say they can dodge thats only listed in the saving throw and as you stated it doesn't even list a target number to dodge! So again its a horribly written spell. If you can dodge it there both has to be a target number to tie or beat and the fissure must be very small indeed. With a spell of this scale I cannot see the fissure being less than a couple dozen feet wide minimum. Which IMO is outside the range of what can be dodged.

Would you agree that a fissure could at most be only half as wide as it long and still be a fissure? or is it limited to 1/3, 1/4 or 1/8 etc. of the length. What arbitrary ratio does "a Fissure" become "a Hole"? I agree that my 1:1 ratio does not fit with the traditional definition of fissure but at least its not picking an arbitrary number.

As written the spell is unplayable so to use it I have to decide how to alter its write up. If I narrow the fissure to say 10 feet to make it dodgeable then i've picked an arbitrary number to limit the width to AND it doesn't seem to fit the scale of the spell. If I rule that the caster can pick a max width of up to half the length then I have picked an arbitrary number again AND still made the spell undodgeable (though it more so fits the scale of the spell). If I rule that 60' is both the max length and width per level then I have maintained the scale of the spell and have not picked an arbitrary number, though this does bend/break the definition of fissure. The problem then is that you still cannot dodge which, the more I think on it, is kinda ok with me since it never gives a target number and besides how the heck can you dodge an earthquake anyhow?

Oh well I'll have to think on it some more and decide if I want it to be dodgeable and pick a fixed and narrow width for the fissure (like 10 feet) or if I want it to be undodgeable and let it be a circle or some arbitrary ratio.

[Glistam]

I'd say the fissure's width is negligible - a few feet at best. The ground is cracking along the fissure point, creating a localized and devastating earthquake, but it's not creating a yawning chasm. There's a level 5 spell to accomplish that.

So you don't think a level 8 spell that costs more PPE, effects a larger area (or at least a longer one since the 8th lvl spell is so vague), and does massively more damage would open a reasonably sized (ie larger than the chasm spell) fissure?

EDIT: I can see where you are coming from though, they are not identical spells and may not be meant to be the same, but IMO they seem very similar. To me Earthquake is like Chasm on steroids. More or less the same but bigger and more destructive.

No, I don't. I interpret the spell as basically a 200 foot wide, 60 feet/level long line of destruction marked by a fissure line as its center point. Since that fissure is the center point and where the shock wave is concentrated, everything along that line takes the full (incredible) damage if they fail to dodge out of the way.

[Tor]

Since it's per-melee damage, it would not seem an irrational house rule to think that if someone was only on the ground for a portion of a melee and safely in the air for another portion that the damage might be reduced a little bit.

The archer getting shaken about a full 15 seconds versus the one who gets hit with the spell the first melee attack but is then quickly lifted into the air by his pegasus friend on the second attack, let's say.

[say652]

Could the major power Control Earth counter the Earthquake??

[Tor]

Can CEFearth stop normal quakes?

[Mouser13]

Personally one point I think your missing if I remember correctly don't have books. Is earthquake does damage every melee round. So the dodge is can I get away the 60ft in 15secs. So I look at it like I lose an attach and I'm dodge the effects of the quake. Which most people can do. Since I speed of 4 can get you out of their.