Mind Bolt & TK Acceleration

[elecgraystone]

double post

[elecgraystone]

so maybe

12 I.S.P.: for 1D6 to 3D6 S.D.C. damage, psychic's choice.
20 I.S.P.: 2D4 Mega-Damage! +1 point per level.

both are +4 to hit.

then +10 ISP for an extra +4 giving +8 to hit total.

Now that's a power i'd think about getting! Good range, same cost as a TK acceleration attack, awesome strike bonuses, no extra materials needed. It puts it on pretty even footing with the other abilities.

[cyber-yukongil v2.5]

In my game, I got rid of the MDC level but made it attack the mind of the target, like a um Mind Bolt. goes straight through armor into the SDC of the guy inside, it only does MDC if the creature being targeted is MDC. Seems to work pretty well, and gives it a niche with TK acceleration attack

[GaredBattlespike]

yeah it's decent. Pyro-K still offers more, since fire is scarier

the ISP cost is still enough that you're not "a bottomless e-clip Mind Bolt weapon" psychic, especially if you use the targeting bonus of +8.

it's most useful on the Astral Plane, where everyone is SDC and now you only have to spend 12 or 22 ISP to shoot at someone.

I've forgotten...what will a Ley Line or Nexus point do to it performance-wise ?

I think, that it is best used in the Astral Plane, although Astral Bolts is better. The excellent Range and 'To-Hit' Bonuses are still advantages for Mind Bolt, and the use at Ley Lines/Nexus Points have + 50% Range (Equalling 150 Ft per Level for Mind Bolt)! This means a 12th Level Mind Melter with Mind Bolt has a Range of (1200 Ft X 1.5) = 1,800 Ft!
I'm not sure the Damage is, or is not Doubled. The Mind Melter description states that the Strength/MDC of any Telekinetic Force Field is Doubled. Is it anything that is a TK field of force or only the Super Psi Power "Telekinetic Force Field". I think it is a matter of hair-splitting, but a matter appropriate to this dialog. I, myself, favor the Specified Power Only interpretation.

[Killer Cyborg]

If you're magic netted and can't move your arms enough to reach your money pouch, you're screwed.

I believe Magic Net says something like: "those caught can't attack or defend" so the net is so constricting it interferes with concentration and Mind Bolts can't be used, even against that strand that's smashed across your nose.

Sometimes the wordings of powers and spells aren't the greatest, and no doubt GMs might make exceptions.

In this case, I think that it says that because the victim is in a net, so using weapons would be impossible.
Not because the net magically prevents psionic attacks from working.

[Killer Cyborg]

Of course, there are ways to get a blindfold to shift, if nobody's watching you 24/7. In which case, Mind Bolt works again.

Just as there are ways around not having materials for the TKA. why not shot the guard with his own set of keys, a hail of buttons ect.

I don't think that the keys would work, since they're all likely to be on one ring (or a single key-card, depending on tech level).
Same with buttons that are attached to a uniform (although this would be likely to work, since they're just sewed into place).

Gathering ammo for TKA in prison will take a lot longer than simply shifting a blindfold.

The point isn't that Mind Bolt can't be stopped; the point is that there are plenty of circumstances where TK Acceleration is useless, but Mind Bolt is not.

Yes, mindbolt can be stopped.

Which is why I said, "The point isn't that Mind Bolt can't be stopped; the point is that there are plenty of circumstances where TK Acceleration is useless, but Mind Bolt is not."

Against an SDC foe, or a very light MDC for, or against a wounded foe, then it can make all the difference in the world.
And yes, "all they have to do is get out of your line of sight", but that isn't always something that can be done in one attack, especially if there are other members of your party still up and fighting (or if you're in a long hall, or any number of other situations that are easily thought of).

You are putting a lot of IF'S together to make so you could get mindbolt attacks.

I don't think that 2 IFs count as "a lot".

Most of the times you point out are just as bad for mind bolt . And against "an SDC foe, or a very light MDC for, or against a wounded foe" well at 50 isp per shot you better make that shot count.

First of all, try 40 ISP, instead of taking the maximum cost for the MD bolt.
The extra strike bonus isn't likely to be necessary.
Second, at 40 ISP, an average 1st level Mind Melter can get 3-4 shots off.

If you've been in a fight long enouph to wound a foe enouph to get him in kill range with a mind bolt you'd be out of ISP.

Unless maybe you were using a gun or other weapon.
Or you weren't the one who wounded him.

And any SDC or very light mdc foe really isn't much of a threat anyway. Anyone like that is asking to be one shoted.

Depends on the power levels you play, and how the GM runs things.

MDC is supposed to be fairly rare in Rifts, and the better the MDC armor the rarer it should be.
But from that part of your post, I'm starting to see what the problem here is.

Not really.
-Astral Travel

At 670mph, you only get 1 attack till the target's out of range and in the astral plane, attacks deal sdc, so you aren't going to kill then in one hit.

I'm not sure why I have to point this out, but when you're travelling astrally, YOU can also travel 670 MPH.
So you can fly after them.
Although I'm not sure why you think that everything in the astral plane instantly flees at full speed whenever they run into a PC...

If astral travel is something you do often, use astral bolt instead.

Which book is that in?

-Indoors in a clean environment
-In Space
-Underwater

You forgot you'd have to be in those areas AND striped naked. That falls under the "Gm would really have to go out of his way to do it".

You wouldn't have to be naked (and I'm starting to wonder what your fixation with nudity is).
You'd just have to be without ammo, in a setting where there is none around.
Why are you without ammo?
I dunno. Maybe you ran out. Maybe somebody shot your ammo pouch.
Maybe it was stolen. Maybe you dropped it.
Maybe you don't want to spend two attacks for every TKA shot you make (one to pull coins out of a pouch, and one to TKA the coins at the enemy).

Maybe you're in space and for some reason you're NOT naked; maybe for some bizarre reason you have a spacesuit on, and you can't reach into your pockets throught the suit.

Get serious with your answers, and start putting more thought into.

There are plenty of ways that a good writer can get variety without constantly increasing the power levels.

Well they didn't use any of them. and now normal pistols go from 1D6 to 5D6M. That's just the way it is and i can't say i'm upset with it.

So you're not upset by crappy writing.

Can't say I'm shocked by this news.

I can agree with that.
This is not one of those times. Super TK is just as playable if it sticks with the standard SDC:MDC ratio as it is with the jacked-up damage rating.
It's not as deadly, but Deadliness does not = Playability.

No, if you use the "standard SDC:MDC ratio" it wouldn't be very SUPER would it?

Yes, it would.
The power could still do mega-damage, it would just be more expensive.
The ability to inflict ANY megadamage is pretty super.
And the ability to toss around hundreds or thousands of pounds of stuff, simply with the power of your mind, that's also pretty super.

super TK is a better and more playable power than mind bolt if ALL it was deal damage. With everything else if can do, mind bolt doesn't even come close.

Only because the rules for Super TK damage don't make sense.

Sure there is.
Having Mind Bolt in certain situations can save your life, or at least let you inflict damage that you otherwise could not inflict.

That may be but those time are so few and far between, how can you justify picking it over a power that will save your life in MORE situations and at a lower ISP cost? I just can't.

How often those times occur depends on the players, the GM, and the campaign.
Believe it or not, not everybody plays exactly the same way you do. Situations that don't occur often in your campaigns might occur more often in other people's campaigns, and vice versa.

And you keep trying to reduce this to an either/or scenario, as if people had to pick either Super TK OR Mind Bolt.
Why not get BOTH?
It's not like Mind Melters only ever get one Super Psionic power.

OMG, "Wall o' Quotes"!!!!!
Please, knock it off, I'm begging you. And I thought Sub liked to quote! There has to be some way to organize your posts that's not so hard on the eyes.

~Semi

I'm sorry if this format bothers you but there really isn't a better way to debate. You have points and counterpoints. If the person makes several points, you have several counterpoints, ect. the only other way would be a seperate post per point, but that becomes unweildly quickly and would be MORE of a mess. I have to agree i haven't found a better way.

At least we can agree on THIS.

[Ectoplasmic Bidet]

In my game, I got rid of the MDC level but made it attack the mind of the target, like a um Mind Bolt. goes straight through armor into the SDC of the guy inside, it only does MDC if the creature being targeted is MDC. Seems to work pretty well, and gives it a niche with TK acceleration attack

I like that approach. I wouldn't mind replacing Mind Bolt with the Psionic Blast power from Rifter 25, just keeping Mind Bolt's much superior range.

[Library Ogre]

Completely tangential, but if you're blindfolded and have MB, why not just MB the blindfold?

[elecgraystone]

I don't think that the keys would work, since they're all likely to be on one ring (or a single key-card, depending on tech level).
Same with buttons that are attached to a uniform (although this would be likely to work, since they're just sewed into place
Gathering ammo for TKA in prison will take a lot longer than simply shifting a blindfold.)..

Not really when your own buttons should work. (unless you really like velcro)

Which is why I said, "The point isn't that Mind Bolt can't be stopped; the point is that there are plenty of circumstances where TK Acceleration is useless, but Mind Bolt is not."

we just don't see things the same way. I just don't see "plenty".

First of all, try 40 ISP, instead of taking the maximum cost for the MD bolt.
The extra strike bonus isn't likely to be necessary.
Second, at 40 ISP, an average 1st level Mind Melter can get 3-4 shots off.

Fine 40. Is someone going to blow all there ISP on 8d4 damage? Not me.

:roll:
Unless maybe you were using a gun or other weapon.
Or you weren't the one who wounded him.

Any psychic stong enouph to have a super is going to use psionics in battle., meaning it's unlikely that they have the 40 isp left IMO. If you feel otherwise, then that's what you believe.

:Depends on the power levels you play, and how the GM runs things.

MDC is supposed to be fairly rare in Rifts, and the better the MDC armor the rarer it should be.
But from that part of your post, I'm starting to see what the problem here is.

it's SOOOOOOO rare that every almost every class gets a MDC weapon (or MORE) and MDC armor. i fail to see ANY sign that it's rare in ANY riftsbook put out(with the exception of australia).

I'm not sure why I have to point this out, but when you're travelling astrally, YOU can also travel 670 MPH.
So you can fly after them.

yeah, on your action. How far do you think they can travel in their action. With any kind of terrain, it's impossible to even track someone going that fast AND able to fly through things. (heck they can drop down till just there head is out of the ground and hide behind a bush)

Although I'm not sure why you think that everything in the astral plane instantly flees at full speed whenever they run into a PC....

never said they would. If it doesn't, it's going to have a better attack than than a crappy mindbolt.

Which book is that in?

The first nightbane source book. It has a lot of extra info an astral travel. It goes into MUCH more detail than the basics given in the RUE.

You wouldn't have to be naked (and I'm starting to wonder what your fixation with nudity is).
You'd just have to be without ammo, in a setting where there is none around.
Why are you without ammo?
I dunno. Maybe you ran out.?

Possible, but since ammo is VERY easy to get there in no reason you shouldn't have plenty.

Maybe somebody shot your ammo pouch.

The ammo doesn't have to be in your pouch/hand. use it from the ground.(and carry more than one pouch)

Maybe it was stolen.

Someone stole my bag of rocks? Man are they poor.

Maybe you dropped it.

Maybe you should pick it up? (most ammo pouches are attached to a belt, so i don't see this being a problem.)

Maybe you don't want to spend two attacks for every TKA shot you make (one to pull coins out of a pouch, and one to TKA the coins at the enemy).

2 attacks? It never states anywere that's the case. I'm pretty sure a sling/sling shot shots every attack you have and you have to "pull ammo out of a pouch" for that, why should a mental attack take longer than that?

Maybe you're in space and for some reason you're NOT naked; maybe for some bizarre reason you have a spacesuit on, and you can't reach into your pockets throught the suit.

Something about space stops you from having a bag/pouch attached to the OUTSIDE of your suit?

Get serious with your answers, and start putting more thought into.

Right back at you.

So you're not upset by crappy writing.

See this is were we disagree. I don't see it as bad writing. I've liked the new items/powers and i like the new power levels.

Yes, it would.
The power could still do mega-damage, it would just be more expensive.
The ability to inflict ANY megadamage is pretty super.
And the ability to toss around hundreds or thousands of pounds of stuff, simply with the power of your mind, that's also pretty super.

If you feel that way, change it for your world. IMO it's fine.

Only because the rules for Super TK damage don't make sense.

Because the rules for Super TK damage don't make sense to YOU. Just becasue that's what you think, doesn't make super Tk the problem. It isn't IMO. The power level of super TK fit's in fine with the other powers. It's mind bolt that's the odd man out.

How often those times occur depends on the players, the GM, and the campaign.
Believe it or not, not everybody plays exactly the same way you do. Situations that don't occur often in your campaigns might occur more often in other people's campaigns, and vice versa.

this is why i've said IMO, I've said I wouldn't pick it, it's MY thoughts. I don't think every one plays the same way i do or that they should. I'm saying that IMO i could never justify taking mind bolt unless it was the only super left to take or it was needed for another power (like the gizmoteer). It's based on my experience and playing. You are free to think otherwise.

And you keep trying to reduce this to an either/or scenario, as if people had to pick either Super TK OR Mind Bolt.
Why not get BOTH?
It's not like Mind Melters only ever get one Super Psionic power.

The fact is that most times you have limited picks, which means you have to get the most "bang" for your buck. Why not take both? As is, i'd never suggest that anyone take this power unless they have ISP in the hundreds and don't mind blowing through it in one fight. It just doesn't have the "bang" that other powers have. Super Tk does damage AND moves things with your mind, pyro has several extra thing you can do with it AND does nice damage. Even TK acceleration gives you options with special ammo. All mind bolt does is damage and not much of it for it's cost.

At least we can agree on THIS.

It might be the ONLY thing in this tread that we DO agree on.

[Killer Cyborg]

I don't think that the keys would work, since they're all likely to be on one ring (or a single key-card, depending on tech level).
Same with buttons that are attached to a uniform (although this would be likely to work, since they're just sewed into place
Gathering ammo for TKA in prison will take a lot longer than simply shifting a blindfold.)..

Not really when your own buttons should work. (unless you really like velcro)

I'm guessing that you wear a lot more buttons than I do.

First of all, try 40 ISP, instead of taking the maximum cost for the MD bolt.
The extra strike bonus isn't likely to be necessary.
Second, at 40 ISP, an average 1st level Mind Melter can get 3-4 shots off.

Fine 40. Is someone going to blow all there ISP on 8d4 damage? Not me.

Apparently.

:roll:
Unless maybe you were using a gun or other weapon.
Or you weren't the one who wounded him.

Any psychic stong enouph to have a super is going to use psionics in battle.

I'll just assume that you mean "Any psychic who is strong enough to have a Super, and who picks a Super Psionic Power that is useful in combat, is going to use psionics in combat".

They might, or they might not.
More often than not, guns are still the way to go.
The best damage for a psionic power is the PK Fireball at 6d6 MD, and it's got no range in comparison to a plasma ejector.

Yes, psychics might well use psionics in battle, but not exclusively and very often not as their primary weapon.

:Depends on the power levels you play, and how the GM runs things.

MDC is supposed to be fairly rare in Rifts, and the better the MDC armor the rarer it should be.
But from that part of your post, I'm starting to see what the problem here is.

it's SOOOOOOO rare that every almost every class gets a MDC weapon (or MORE) and MDC armor.

Yes, every class of ADVENTURER.
Just like fully automatic weapons are issued to most SOLDIERS in the real world, yet they're pretty rare among civilians.

The average people of Rifts Earth don't have much in the way of mega-damage capability.

i fail to see ANY sign that it's rare in ANY riftsbook put out(with the exception of australia).

You're not reading the books, then.
What you're probably doing is looking at the listed armor and weapons and assuming that it's commonplace, which is kind of like flipping through a Sharper Image catalog and assuming that most people own that kind of stuff.

I'm not sure why I have to point this out, but when you're travelling astrally, YOU can also travel 670 MPH.
So you can fly after them.

yeah, on your action.

Or, arguably, on their action as a simo-attack.

How far do you think they can travel in their action.

That depends on what their accelleration rate is.

Although I'm not sure why you think that everything in the astral plane instantly flees at full speed whenever they run into a PC....

never said they would. If it doesn't, it's going to have a better attack than than a crappy mindbolt.

So why claim that Mindbolt is useless because the enemy can flee?
Why would the enemy fleeing enter into the equation?

It wouldn't; not unless you were already winning the battle.

Which book is that in?

The first nightbane source book. It has a lot of extra info an astral travel. It goes into MUCH more detail than the basics given in the RUE.

Great for Nightbane players.
Not so great for Rifts players.

But let's look at Astral Bolts for a minute:
Damage- 1d4 per level, vs. 6d6 for Mind Bolt.
Range- 30'+10'/level, vs. 100'/level for Mind Bolt.
Strike Bonus- +3, vs. +4 for Mind Bolt.
Cost- 10 ISP, vs 40 ISP for Mind Bolt.

The only advantages that Astral Bolts have over Mind Bolt are:
-After 10th level, the Astral Bolts do more damage
-Astral Bolts is cheaper.

I can see how Astral Bolts could come in handy, but Mind Bolt is better in most cases.

You wouldn't have to be naked (and I'm starting to wonder what your fixation with nudity is).
You'd just have to be without ammo, in a setting where there is none around.
Why are you without ammo?
I dunno. Maybe you ran out.?

Possible, but since ammo is VERY easy to get there in no reason you shouldn't have plenty.

That depends on how much you've been using, how much is lying around, and how much time you have to gather more.
In short, it depends on the adventure you're on.

Maybe somebody shot your ammo pouch.

The ammo doesn't have to be in your pouch/hand. use it from the ground.(and carry more than one pouch)

I'll remind you that in space and underwater (unless you're walking along the bottom), there is no ground.
Same with large parts of the astral plane.

Basically, what I've been saying all along:
TKA is great if you have plenty of ammo lying around, but if not then you can't use it.

Maybe it was stolen.

Someone stole my bag of rocks? Man are they poor.

Or stupid. Maybe they thought it was gold nuggets.

Or maybe they knew that those rocks, in your hands, were deadly weapons.

Maybe you dropped it.

Maybe you should pick it up? (most ammo pouches are attached to a belt, so i don't see this being a problem.)

Depends on what's chasing you (or any number of other circumstances).

Maybe you don't want to spend two attacks for every TKA shot you make (one to pull coins out of a pouch, and one to TKA the coins at the enemy).

2 attacks? It never states anywere that's the case. I'm pretty sure a sling/sling shot shots every attack you have and you have to "pull ammo out of a pouch" for that, why should a mental attack take longer than that?

What makes you sure that slings & slingshots fire that quickly?
I don't see any mention of it in the rules.

Maybe you're in space and for some reason you're NOT naked; maybe for some bizarre reason you have a spacesuit on, and you can't reach into your pockets through the suit.

Something about space stops you from having a bag/pouch attached to the OUTSIDE of your suit?

Maybe.
Or maybe you didn't have time to pack your rocks.
Again, all sorts of stuff happens while adventuring, and you don't always have time to pack everything you need for every occasion.
It all depends on the circumstances.

Get serious with your answers, and start putting more thought into.

Right back at you.

That's a great example.
Instead of actually thinking about a response, you toss off a "I'm rubber, you're glue" type retort.

So you're not upset by crappy writing.

See this is were we disagree. I don't see it as bad writing. I've liked the new items/powers and i like the new power levels.

Yes, I'd say that we disagree here.

Yes, it would.
The power could still do mega-damage, it would just be more expensive.
The ability to inflict ANY megadamage is pretty super.
And the ability to toss around hundreds or thousands of pounds of stuff, simply with the power of your mind, that's also pretty super.

If you feel that way, change it for your world. IMO it's fine.

Your opinion is wrong.

Only because the rules for Super TK damage don't make sense.

Because the rules for Super TK damage don't make sense to YOU.

Maybe I'm not seeing it.
Explain to me why 1d4x10 SDC = 1d4 MD, and how exactly that makes sense to you.

Just becasue that's what you think, doesn't make super Tk the problem. It isn't IMO. The power level of super TK fit's in fine with the other powers. It's mind bolt that's the odd man out.

Sure, NOW.
Back in the original main book, before power creep set in, Super TK only did 1d4x10 SDC per 100 lbs. Period.
You could only inflict MD by inflicting more than 100 points of SDC damage.
Then some genius decided that 1d4x10=1d4x100, and NOW Mind Bolt is underpowered in comparison.

How often those times occur depends on the players, the GM, and the campaign.
Believe it or not, not everybody plays exactly the same way you do. Situations that don't occur often in your campaigns might occur more often in other people's campaigns, and vice versa.

this is why i've said IMO, I've said I wouldn't pick it, it's MY thoughts. I don't think every one plays the same way i do or that they should. I'm saying that IMO i could never justify taking mind bolt unless it was the only super left to take or it was needed for another power (like the gizmoteer). It's based on my experience and playing. You are free to think otherwise.

So what are you arguing about?

And you keep trying to reduce this to an either/or scenario, as if people had to pick either Super TK OR Mind Bolt.
Why not get BOTH?
It's not like Mind Melters only ever get one Super Psionic power.

The fact is that most times you have limited picks, which means you have to get the most "bang" for your buck. Why not take both? As is, i'd never suggest that anyone take this power unless they have ISP in the hundreds and don't mind blowing through it in one fight. It just doesn't have the "bang" that other powers have. Super Tk does damage AND moves things with your mind, pyro has several extra thing you can do with it AND does nice damage. Even TK acceleration gives you options with special ammo. All mind bolt does is damage and not much of it for it's cost.

Hey, suit yourself.
But there are reasons to take it, as I keep pointing out.

[Talavar]

Mega-damage equipment is rare for 'civilians' and villagers, but do you really need super-psionics to defeat the equivalent of peasants? I mean, can't you just kick the serfs around without MD equipment or powers?

Killer Cyborg, as the apparent lone mind bolt champion, have you considered that maybe your opinion is wrong? As I meant at the beginning of all this, and others have added, it's not that mind bolt has no use at all, it's just that it's not very useful vs. most other super-psionics, particularly for equivalent ISP cost.

I mean, in various situations anything can have it's uses, which mind bolt definitely can, it's just that those situations are significantly rarer than situations that don't exclude the use of more damaging, cheaper or more versatile powers.

[Killer Cyborg]

Mega-damage equipment is rare for 'civilians' and villagers, but do you really need super-psionics to defeat the equivalent of peasants? I mean, can't you just kick the serfs around without MD equipment or powers?

It's not just all Serfs and Adventurers.
There are plenty of raiders and barbarians out there, with a large variety of technology and weapons.

And there's a wide variety of non-human life out there as well.
Look back in the main book, at the tables for generating random monsters. A standard Animalistic Predator has anywhere from 20 to 80 MDC. Mind Bolt might not work so well against something with 80 MDC, but it could take down or chase off something with 20 MDC.
(It would have been even better against dinosaurs, but since the T-Rex went from 1d4x10 MDC to having hundreds of MDC, that's just not true anymore)

Killer Cyborg, as the apparent lone mind bolt champion, have you considered that maybe your opinion is wrong?

I always consider the possibility that I am wrong.
It even happens, from time to time.

This is not one of those times.

As I meant at the beginning of all this, and others have added, it's not that mind bolt has no use at all, it's just that it's not very useful vs. most other super-psionics, particularly for equivalent ISP cost.

I agree that it could be more useful.
But the problem isn't really with the power itself; it's with power creep. Mind Bolt used to be a lot more formidable.
Sure, you can buff up Mind Bolt to compensate for power creep, but that's where power creep comes from in the first place.

I mean, in various situations anything can have it's uses, which mind bolt definitely can, it's just that those situations are significantly rarer than situations that don't exclude the use of more damaging, cheaper or more versatile powers.

That depends on what the campaign is like, as I've pointed out.

[elecgraystone]

I'm guessing that you wear a lot more buttons than I do.

What shirt doesn't have at least the 6 that the power needs?

:lol:

I'll just assume that you mean "Any psychic who is strong enough to have a Super, and who picks a Super Psionic Power that is useful in combat, is going to use psionics in combat".

Yes, i figured you were smart enouph that i didn't have to spell all that out.

They might, or they might not.
More often than not, guns are still the way to go.

A quote from the mind melter OCC "the mind melter relies almost entirely on his incredible pyschic powers". Any psychic is going to be using there powers even when they aren't damage causing or supers. Sixth sense, mind block, see invisible, impervious to cold, fire, poison, nightvision, summon inner strength, resist fatigue, presence sense, sense evil ect. The point is that pychics use there powers and most do not have HUGE ISP totals so the chances that that they have 40-50 AFTER being in a fight for a while would most likely mean that they don't have any useful powers. At least that's my experience. If psychics just never you their ISP in worlds you've been in, your experience might be different.

The best damage for a psionic power is the PK Fireball at 6d6 MD, and it's got no range in comparison to a plasma ejector.

Yes, psychics might well use psionics in battle, but not exclusively and very often not as their primary weapon.

You miss my point. I talked about having enouph isp to use the attack. Their are plenty of psychic powers you can use in combat that are not attacks. A psychic character is going to "gasp" use there powers. Lets look at a mind melter for a second. average ISP 90+ME(average9) for a total of 99isp at first. He uses telekinetic force field and/or psychic body field (-30), group mind block (-22) and sixth sense (-2). Not unreasonable powers to use in the first few rounds rounds of combat. None were attack abilities and he's down to 44 isp in 2 melee attacks. I'm sure he can find ways to spend 5+ isp in the next few attacks/rounds.

Yes, every class of ADVENTURER.
Just like fully automatic weapons are issued to most SOLDIERS in the real world, yet they're pretty rare among civilians.

But who's going to be attacking the party? torch weilding civilians, or adventurers?

The average people of Rifts Earth don't have much in the way of mega-damage capability.

And this has what to do with who the players are fighting? NONE.

You're not reading the books, then.
What you're probably doing is looking at the listed armor and weapons and assuming that it's commonplace, which is kind of like flipping through a Sharper Image catalog and assuming that most people own that kind of stuff.

No, once again you miss the point. The use of MDC equipment is common place for adventurers and ANYONE that the GM is going to throw at you. So when we are talking about attacks on the party, i'm talking about how well equiped THEY would be. You keep talking oranges in a debate about apples.

Or, arguably, on their action as a simo-attack.

Since when was moving a simo-attack?

That depends on what their accelleration rate is.

The speed of thought. it's not like real world physics applies. In one action, their out of sight.

So why claim that Mindbolt is useless because the enemy can flee?
Why would the enemy fleeing enter into the equation?

It wouldn't; not unless you were already winning the battle.

Dude, read the thread once. Someone said it could be used to attack a CS spying on their camp. I countered that it wouldn't stop them because it couldn't do enouph damage in one hit to kill him and with his 670MPH, he'd be out of range in 1 attack. You once again take my words out of context by reading just my words and not the ones i responded to.

Great for Nightbane players.
Not so great for Rifts players.

Anyone using the astral plane and NOT using the rules in nightbane is missing out on a LOT of info.

But let's look at Astral Bolts for a minute:
Damage- 1d4 per level, vs. 6d6 for Mind Bolt.
Range- 30'+10'/level, vs. 100'/level for Mind Bolt.
Strike Bonus- +3, vs. +4 for Mind Bolt.
Cost- 10 ISP, vs 40 ISP for Mind Bolt.

The only advantages that Astral Bolts have over Mind Bolt are:
-After 10th level, the Astral Bolts do more damage

-Astral Bolts is cheaper.

I can see how Astral Bolts could come in handy, but Mind Bolt is better in most cases.

You missed the biggest factor. Astral bolts had a duration, one round per level. Assuming 4 attacks for a 1st level psychic that 4d4 per 10isp or 16d4 for the same isp cost as mind bolts 6d6. While it's not overly impressive at first it quickly becomes awesome. At just 3rd you have a 3d4 atack for 3 melee rounds!

That depends on how much you've been using, how much is lying around, and how much time you have to gather more.
In short, it depends on the adventure you're on.

Very true., however IMO the vast ammount of the time it should never be a problem.

I'll remind you that in space and underwater (unless you're walking along the bottom), there is no ground.

Water, you have a problem. Space shouldn't be a problem, it only has the movement you had when you lost it, so unless you were going real fast just grab it.

Same with large parts of the astral plane.

Why would the items do anything but float there(no real gravity). It really depends how you get to the astal plane and what equipment you have with you. There are several ways to get into the astral plane with equipment

Basically, what I've been saying all along:
TKA is great if you have plenty of ammo lying around, but if not then you can't use it.

All we really disagree with is how much of a disadvantage needing ammo is. IMO it just isn't much of one and use seem to thing it's more of one.

Or stupid. Maybe they thought it was gold nuggets.

Can't disagree with you there. However stupid criminals tend to have a short life span.

Or maybe they knew that those rocks, in your hands, were deadly weapons.

Again, can't disagree but if the gM has the fix in for me, i'm sure having my bag of rocks stolen is the least of my problems. Wear clothes with LOTS of buttons. It's hard to palm them

Depends on what's chasing you (or any number of other circumstances).

True, but as i said most times it's attached to you and even if it drops most times it's not a problem.

What makes you sure that slings & slingshots fire that quickly?
I don't see any mention of it in the rules.

WP Targeting. "under attacks per round. Unless stated otherwise, each thrown item counts as one attack/action". It does note that "some exotic weapons may require a spinning action or time to throw that takes up more than one attacks" but it doesn't list ANY weapons that fall under this. SO blowguns, bommerangs , slings slingshots, ect only take ONE action to attack with because none are stated as taking more than one attack to use.

Maybe.
Or maybe you didn't have time to pack your rocks.
Again, all sorts of stuff happens while adventuring, and you don't always have time to pack everything you need for every occasion.
It all depends on the circumstances.

Again with the maybe. I'm talking about MOST times. You have to pick your powers so that the help you out MOST of the time. Could it happen that way, sure it could. Am i going to pick a power just in that unlikely event? no

That's a great example.
Instead of actually thinking about a response, you toss off a "I'm rubber, you're glue" type retort.

Why did i need to say more? you accuse me of not putting thought into my replies and it seems to you you were guilty of the same. I've thought about all my posts.

Yes, I'd say that we disagree here.

Fine. Now that we agree on that we don't have to talk about it anymore.

Your opinion is wrong.

Yes almighty role playing god. I'm SOOOO sorry i think different than you. How could i EVER do that. How dare you say an opinion is wrong. Who made you master of rifts to say who's opinion is right or wrong?

Maybe I'm not seeing it.
Explain to me why 1d4x10 SDC = 1d4 MD, and how exactly that makes sense to you.

Because it's a game and it makes the power better in both my eyes AND the eyes of the fine people that made the book?

Sure, NOW.
Back in the original main book, before power creep set in, Super TK only did 1d4x10 SDC per 100 lbs. Period.
You could only inflict MD by inflicting more than 100 points of SDC damage.
Then some genius decided that 1d4x10=1d4x100, and NOW Mind Bolt is underpowered in comparison.

Sorry, but IMO mindbolt always sucked. It just sucks MORE now that other powers got better and it didn't. Again if you don't like the canon CHANGE it. nerf super TK if it makes you happy. IMO it makes more sense to boost mindbolt that nerf super TK, but that a matter of personal preferance. The point is that mindbolt just doesn't compair with the other powers.

So what are you arguing about?

Mainly because you seem to think your way it the only right way and you seem to have no problem saying as much in these posts.

Hey, suit yourself.
But there are reasons to take it, as I keep pointing out.

The whole point of this thread was that someone was trying to see if he was the only one that thought that no one would EVER take this power as is. You have pointed out reasons that you think people SHOULD take it and i've pointed out why they SHOULDN'T.

[elecgraystone]

Killer Cyborg, as the apparent lone mind bolt champion, have you considered that maybe your opinion is wrong? As I meant at the beginning of all this, and others have added, it's not that mind bolt has no use at all, it's just that it's not very useful vs. most other super-psionics, particularly for equivalent ISP cost.

I mean, in various situations anything can have it's uses, which mind bolt definitely can, it's just that those situations are significantly rarer than situations that don't exclude the use of more damaging, cheaper or more versatile powers.

I can't agree more. I can see that this debate with Killer Cyborg will never end unless i do something myself. So i'm pulling the plug on my end. (plus i'm not a big fan a people insulting me for no reason) So from this point on, have fun debating yourself Killer Cyborg. I'm moving on to other threads. I've said eveything i think i need to say on this subject. Don't take this as an admition that i agree with your point of view Killer Cyborg. I just tired of rehashing the same point and i don't see i have any chance of modifying your outlook in the least.

[elecgraystone]

why don't you two get married ?

Only to collect on the life insurance policy!

[elecgraystone]

This is why I don't let PCs who want to play psychics pick their own powers.


Well unless they make a pretty decent backstory to it.

Because they might pick something useful? Might as well roll random for skills and spells learned too! Making one kind of class roll there stuff random (like psi) and having a class pick (like mystic and spells) makes a double standard. Which would you pick? a class you can customize or a class the GM makes the picks for you? For me, i'd never play a psionic character in your world as it's a crap shot. A LLW would be a better pick for me even though i'd like a psychic character better. At least i know what spells the LLW was.

[Killer Cyborg]

I can see that this debate with Killer Cyborg will never end unless i do something myself. So i'm pulling the plug on my end.

Don't take this as an admition that i agree with your point of view Killer Cyborg.

Of course not.
I only take it as an admition that you're tired of going back and forth in a completely unproductive argument.

I will, of course, still respond to that last post you made, but if you don't respond back I will not take it as a sign that I've changed your mind.

[Killer Cyborg]

I'm guessing that you wear a lot more buttons than I do.

What shirt doesn't have at least the 6 that the power needs?

Most shirts don't have buttons.

They might, or they might not.
More often than not, guns are still the way to go.

A quote from the mind melter OCC "the mind melter relies almost entirely on his incredible pyschic powers".

Actually, that's not the whole sentence.
It continues: "...his incredible psychic powers, a sharp mind and cunning, more than education, weapons, or anything else."

It says that right before it says, "The most arrogant Mind Melters may even refrain from using more than a handful of modern weapons and devices as a sign of just how powerful they are (or believe they are."

Any psychic is going to be using there powers even when they aren't damage causing or supers. Sixth sense, mind block, see invisible, impervious to cold, fire, poison, nightvision, summon inner strength, resist fatigue, presence sense, sense evil ect. The point is that pychics use there powers and most do not have HUGE ISP totals so the chances that that they have 40-50 AFTER being in a fight for a while would most likely mean that they don't have any useful powers. At least that's my experience. If psychics just never you their ISP in worlds you've been in, your experience might be different.

In my experience, psychics use their powers in combat, when needed.
6th Sense only costs a couple of ISP, so it's not going to drain you.
The rest of your list isn't likely to come up that often, certainly not in the same battle.
It wouldn't be that unusual to use ONE of those powers, but they'er all pretty cheap.
If you're dropping your ISP down to 40-50 ISP in a single fight, just from using Mind Block, Sense Evil, 6th Sense, etc, then either you have less than average ISP for a first level character, or you're doing something really wrong.

The best damage for a psionic power is the PK Fireball at 6d6 MD, and it's got no range in comparison to a plasma ejector.

Yes, psychics might well use psionics in battle, but not exclusively and very often not as their primary weapon.

You miss my point. I talked about having enouph isp to use the attack. Their are plenty of psychic powers you can use in combat that are not attacks. A psychic character is going to "gasp" use there powers. Lets look at a mind melter for a second. average ISP 90+ME(average9) for a total of 99isp at first.

Actually, the average of 1d6 is 3.5, so the average of 3d6x10 is 105, and the average M.E. is 10.5.
Which gives the average 1st level Mind Melter about 115 ISP.

He uses telekinetic force field and/or psychic body field (-30), group mind block (-22) and sixth sense (-2). Not unreasonable powers to use in the first few rounds rounds of combat. None were attack abilities and he's down to 44 isp in 2 melee attacks. I'm sure he can find ways to spend 5+ isp in the next few attacks/rounds.

Unless you're being attacked by another Mind Melter, or a group of them, then Group Mind Block is kind of pointless. So that's one unreasonable use of power right there.
I agree with the other powers though, IF it's a big enough threat to warrent using one of the force field powers.
So that's 32 ISP down

Leaving 83 ISP left, enough for two Mind Bolts if you need them.

Yes, every class of ADVENTURER.
Just like fully automatic weapons are issued to most SOLDIERS in the real world, yet they're pretty rare among civilians.

But who's going to be attacking the party? torch weilding civilians, or adventurers?

Either/or.
Maybe both.
Maybe somewhere in between.

In our games, we've pretty much been attacked by everything.

The average people of Rifts Earth don't have much in the way of mega-damage capability.

And this has what to do with who the players are fighting? NONE.

See above.
It's pretty rare that anybody with no MD capabilites would bother going after a group of obviously armed and armored PCs, but groups with low MD capabilities (raiders, bandits, and barbarians) would try it from time to time.

You're not reading the books, then.
What you're probably doing is looking at the listed armor and weapons and assuming that it's commonplace, which is kind of like flipping through a Sharper Image catalog and assuming that most people own that kind of stuff.

No, once again you miss the point. The use of MDC equipment is common place for adventurers and ANYONE that the GM is going to throw at you. So when we are talking about attacks on the party, i'm talking about how well equiped THEY would be. You keep talking oranges in a debate about apples.

It's not my fault that you apparently limit yourself and your players to a diet of only one fruit.
We have a wider menu than that, and that's the context that I was discussing things in.

Or, arguably, on their action as a simo-attack.

Since when was moving a simo-attack?

It could be ruled either way, depending on the GM.

Notice that I said, "arguably".

Do you really want to argue about it?

That depends on what their accelleration rate is.

The speed of thought. it's not like real world physics applies. In one action, their out of sight.

Sorry, but I don't believe that the books say that; it's a house rule.

So why claim that Mindbolt is useless because the enemy can flee?
Why would the enemy fleeing enter into the equation?

It wouldn't; not unless you were already winning the battle.

Dude, read the thread once. Someone said it could be used to attack a CS spying on their camp. I countered that it wouldn't stop them because it couldn't do enouph damage in one hit to kill him and with his 670MPH, he'd be out of range in 1 attack. You once again take my words out of context by reading just my words and not the ones i responded to.

Nope.
YOU are taking your words out of context.
I was only responding to your posts to ME, and they were in response to my mentioning the lack of objects lying around the Astral Plane that can be used with TKA.

Specifically, things went like this:
Me (discussing the fact that Mind Bolt doesn't requrie ammo): A lot of the time this won't matter, but other times it will be a significant advantage.

You: There can be times when you can't find stuff to use in a TKA attack, but the Gm would really have to go out of his way to do it.

Me: Not really.
-Astral Travel
-Indoors in a clean environment
-In Space
-Underwater

You: At 670mph, you only get 1 attack till the target's out of range and in the astral plane...

Great for Nightbane players.
Not so great for Rifts players.

Anyone using the astral plane and NOT using the rules in nightbane is missing out on a LOT of info.

I more or less agree with that, but that doesn't necessarily apply to the psychic powers in Nightbane.

In any case, Mind Bolt is good in the real world AND the Astral Plane; Astral Bolts is only good astrally.

But let's look at Astral Bolts for a minute:
Damage- 1d4 per level, vs. 6d6 for Mind Bolt.
Range- 30'+10'/level, vs. 100'/level for Mind Bolt.
Strike Bonus- +3, vs. +4 for Mind Bolt.
Cost- 10 ISP, vs 40 ISP for Mind Bolt.

The only advantages that Astral Bolts have over Mind Bolt are:
-After 10th level, the Astral Bolts do more damage

-Astral Bolts is cheaper.

I can see how Astral Bolts could come in handy, but Mind Bolt is better in most cases.

You missed the biggest factor. Astral bolts had a duration, one round per level. Assuming 4 attacks for a 1st level psychic that 4d4 per 10isp or 16d4 for the same isp cost as mind bolts 6d6. While it's not overly impressive at first it quickly becomes awesome. At just 3rd you have a 3d4 atack for 3 melee rounds!

I didn't miss that at all, it's just a long-winded version of what I said above:
Astral Bolts is cheaper.

Mind Bolt still does more damage per attack, until 10th level.

That depends on how much you've been using, how much is lying around, and how much time you have to gather more.
In short, it depends on the adventure you're on.

Very true., however IMO the vast ammount of the time it should never be a problem.

It's pretty obvious by now that you and I have vastly different playing styles.

I'll remind you that in space and underwater (unless you're walking along the bottom), there is no ground.

Water, you have a problem. Space shouldn't be a problem, it only has the movement you had when you lost it, so unless you were going real fast just grab it.

???
Let me refresh your memory about this part of the conversation:

You:There can be times when you can't find stuff to use in a TKA attack, but the Gm would really have to go out of his way to do it.

Me:Not really.
-Astral Travel
-Indoors in a clean environment
-In Space
-Underwater

You seem to have changed conversations to something else.
I'm guessing you're talking about grabbing a dropped ammo pouch, but that's not what we were talking about.
We were talking about using objects lying around on the ground.
As I said, in space and underwater (unless you're on the bottom), there isn't anything lying on the ground to be used as ammo.

Same with large parts of the astral plane.

Why would the items do anything but float there(no real gravity). It really depends how you get to the astal plane and what equipment you have with you. There are several ways to get into the astral plane with equipment

See Above.

Basically, what I've been saying all along:
TKA is great if you have plenty of ammo lying around, but if not then you can't use it.

All we really disagree with is how much of a disadvantage needing ammo is. IMO it just isn't much of one and use seem to thing it's more of one.

As I said originally: "A lot of the time this won't matter, but other times it will be a significant advantage."

Or stupid. Maybe they thought it was gold nuggets.

Can't disagree with you there. However stupid criminals tend to have a short life span.

It's Rifts.
Everybody tends to have a short life span.

Or maybe they knew that those rocks, in your hands, were deadly weapons.

Again, can't disagree but if the GM has the fix in for me, i'm sure having my bag of rocks stolen is the least of my problems. Wear clothes with LOTS of buttons. It's hard to palm them

Good idea there, BTW.
Just be sure to go with metal or ceramic buttons.
I have a hard time believing that plastic buttons would do normal damage.

What makes you sure that slings & slingshots fire that quickly?
I don't see any mention of it in the rules.

WP Targeting. "under attacks per round. Unless stated otherwise, each thrown item counts as one attack/action". It does note that "some exotic weapons may require a spinning action or time to throw that takes up more than one attacks" but it doesn't list ANY weapons that fall under this. SO blowguns, bommerangs , slings slingshots, ect only take ONE action to attack with because none are stated as taking more than one attack to use.

Nice try, but blowgun darts, sling stones, and slingshot ammo aren't thrown.
They're fired.

Maybe.
Or maybe you didn't have time to pack your rocks.
Again, all sorts of stuff happens while adventuring, and you don't always have time to pack everything you need for every occasion.
It all depends on the circumstances.

Again with the maybe. I'm talking about MOST times. You have to pick your powers so that the help you out MOST of the time. Could it happen that way, sure it could. Am i going to pick a power just in that unlikely event? no

That's the thing about a lot of powers. They're not very useful most of the time, but they can save your life when you need them.
YOU might not pick a power like that, but lots of other people do.

Your opinion is wrong.

Yes almighty role playing god.

Apology accepted.

Maybe I'm not seeing it.
Explain to me why 1d4x10 SDC = 1d4 MD, and how exactly that makes sense to you.

Because it's a game and it makes the power better in both my eyes AND the eyes of the fine people that made the book?

Nope; doesn't cut it.
It's just another way of saying, "But it's KEWL!!"
Basically, you like it because it's overpowered.
That doesn't make it make any sense; it just means you like things that are overpowered.

Sure, NOW.
Back in the original main book, before power creep set in, Super TK only did 1d4x10 SDC per 100 lbs. Period.
You could only inflict MD by inflicting more than 100 points of SDC damage.
Then some genius decided that 1d4x10=1d4x100, and NOW Mind Bolt is underpowered in comparison.

Sorry, but IMO mindbolt always sucked. It just sucks MORE now that other powers got better and it didn't.

You're simply wrong here.
It was never as good a a decent rifle or pistol, but none of the offensive psionic powers were.
Of the ranged psionics in the main book Mind Bolt did the most damage.

Again if you don't like the canon CHANGE it.

Not the issue.
We're discussing how the rules ARE, and how they WERE, not how we wish they would be.

So what are you arguing about?

Mainly because you seem to think your way it the only right way and you seem to have no problem saying as much in these posts.

My way IS the only right way, so why should I have a problem saying it?

Hey, suit yourself.
But there are reasons to take it, as I keep pointing out.

The whole point of this thread was that someone was trying to see if he was the only one that thought that no one would EVER take this power as is. You have pointed out reasons that you think people SHOULD take it and i've pointed out why they SHOULDN'T.

Yup.
Shouldn't have taken up this much of the topic to do that, should it?

[Talavar]

Your opinion is wrong.

Yes almighty role playing god.

Apology accepted.

You're simply wrong here.

My way IS the only right way, so why should I have a problem saying it?

[Killer Cyborg]

Your opinion is wrong.

Yes almighty role playing god.

Apology accepted.

You're simply wrong here.

My way IS the only right way, so why should I have a problem saying it?

Wow. Offensive and patronizing all in one post. That's special.

[elecgraystone]

Oh please they're not even related. Being psychic is something you discover. You're either born with it or you're not. Skills and spells are learned(unless they are granted by special cases.)

Mystics are just one example of a magic class that doesn't learns spells. Also several psi clases state that people are trained to be that class (with those powers) Take psi-ghost for example. "these crafty mutants have been known to adopt major and master psychics into there fold and train then as psi-ghosts". You might be born with psionic powers but the books seem to say you can "train" for different abilities.

How? The powers aren't the same.

Not from the players view. When you's let a mystic pick his spells and you wouldn't let i mind melter do the same when neither one said to in the rule just looks like you have it out for the pychic guy.

Well technically they roll dice to determine but anyways it's only the initial powers I make them roll for. After experience a psychic should know how to better shape and manage his/her own power.

Seems odd. If your a bully and like to hurt people why would your mind just give you pyschic surgery and read portal? Powers should be tailored to the characters personality. If your going to randomly pick powers, at least limit them to powers that make sense.

Well what the hell did you expect? They aren't born KNOWING they're psychic. Their intial powers would be based off the nature of their early development and teen years. If they grew up very insecure they could have telepathy or if they grew up on a volcanic mountain they could have pyrokinesis.

yes and that's is my point. If a character grew up in a volcanic area and he got hydokinesis because of a random roll, that's lame. The character should build up a character with a personality and background. If you think they picked a power that doesn't fit that personality/background veto it, but a random roll means that there personality and background mean nothing. You get a power just cuz the dice rolled it, not becasue it makes sense.

A case in point, you have a player that rolls a very low PPE total (like 3) THEN rolls the mask PPE power. His mind thought he needed a power that makes his PPE total of 3 look like it's a d4 ppe. LAME.

I mean it's not that hard to come up with some backstory to justify any power.

very true if you pick the powers BEFORE you make up the backstory. When i make up a character, i have in mind what kind of character i'm looking for. A sneaky guy, a combat guy, a tech guy ect. What you are saying every one else get to pick what kind of guy they want to be (by picking their OCC) EXCEPT the psionic guy, He has to wait till the random dice roll TELLS him what kind of character he is.
You don't see how that looks unfair?

PS: i forgot to ask which palladium game you are talking about. If you are talking anbout HU were mutants, experiments, aliens and such all roll there powers, then i wouldn't see a ploblem with making psionics that way too. My comments were to a game like rifts were MOST powers/abilities are picked, not random rolls.

[elecgraystone]

if you don't respond back I will not take it as a sign that I've changed your mind.

Thank you.

[Killer Cyborg]

if you don't respond back I will not take it as a sign that I've changed your mind.

Thank you.

No problem.

[elecgraystone]

Players already have an idea of what kind of character they want and what powers they want and they build from there. I take a look over the character and give them a thumbs up or thumbs down. If they need help with it I'll help them. I've never forced anyone to randomly roll for psionics.

I'd have no problem with that. i thought you ment totally random picks. It seems fair enouph.