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Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 11:20 pm
  

Adventurer

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In PFRPG 2nd edition it says,
"Once activated, the ward is permanently affixed to that item or place and the entire ward phrase is indestructable and makes whatever other magic effect, be it caused by a ward, circle, magic curse, or magic spell, permanent and always active in the immediate area around the ward!"

My question is since you can make magic spells permanent, how do you do so? Cast a globe of daylight for example and then activate the permantent ward, or do you do both at the same time or vice versa? Also, do you cast the spell AT the permanent ward or is close proximity enough?

I ask because a player once thought of getting a 6 inch piece of metal pipe, put a glass end on one end, cast a globe of daylight inside the pipe and placed a permanent ward ont he other end and activated it.... Palladium style flashlights.

Also, if you can make spells permanent can you make them triggered? Such as a permanent Trigger + Undead + Inflict + Globe of Daylight + Permanent???

As a GM, I have allowed this sort of thing, just wondering what you guys say on the matter. (ps. I searched for the answer but couldnt find it)


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Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 4:48 am
  

Hero

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verdilak wrote:
In PFRPG 2nd edition it says,
"Once activated, the ward is permanently affixed to that item or place and the entire ward phrase is indestructable and makes whatever other magic effect, be it caused by a ward, circle, magic curse, or magic spell, permanent and always active in the immediate area around the ward!"

My question is since you can make magic spells permanent, how do you do so? Cast a globe of daylight for example and then activate the permantent ward, or do you do both at the same time or vice versa? Also, do you cast the spell AT the permanent ward or is close proximity enough?

I ask because a player once thought of getting a 6 inch piece of metal pipe, put a glass end on one end, cast a globe of daylight inside the pipe and placed a permanent ward ont he other end and activated it.... Palladium style flashlights.

Also, if you can make spells permanent can you make them triggered? Such as a permanent Trigger + Undead + Inflict + Globe of Daylight + Permanent???

As a GM, I have allowed this sort of thing, just wondering what you guys say on the matter. (ps. I searched for the answer but couldnt find it)


Alrighty.. none of this is "actual canon" but is based on multiple discussions on the boards, and with other gamers, from rulings Ive made, arguments Ive made, arguments Ive seen other players make, and decisions of other GMs Ive known. That said.....

There are 2 things required for the spell portion. #1- a duration other than instant. #2- a physical effect/effected item.

If the spell's duration is instant, no, you ain't gonna have time to get the ward going. In other words, no "I cast fireball then activate the ward, so that I can cast fireballs whenever i want". However, (I don't have the books with me, so bear with estimates and memory) if you have a spell that says "can cast 1 fireball per round, for the duration of the spell" and the spell has a duration of "1 round per level". Cast the spell, the attach a perm ward, you can now eternally cast 1 fireball per round.

I'm going to touch on requirement #2 now.Physical effect. There HAS to be something to attatch the ward to. IE, a wall of force has a wall to use. A spell like "globe of daylight" doesn't have an actual solid portion to attach to. Now, if the spell was like the D&D version "light" which enchants an object to glow, then yes, you could attatch a perm ward, and it would be eternal. But, by PB, no, you're flashlight won't work.

So, no, your undead ward set wouldn't work.

There's 'stories' of GMs who allow PCs who are both accomplished diabolists and wizards to figure out how to create a new ward (I've nicknamed it the storage jar) which will hold a spell, allowing a ward phrase like the undead one you mentioned.

Of course, if you're the GM, it's all your call. Hope this helped.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 5:01 am
  

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Goliath Strongarm wrote:
Alrighty.. none of this is "actual canon" but is based on multiple discussions on the boards, and with other gamers, from rulings Ive made, arguments Ive made, arguments Ive seen other players make, and decisions of other GMs Ive known. That said.....

There are 2 things required for the spell portion. #1- a duration other than instant. #2- a physical effect/effected item.

If the spell's duration is instant, no, you ain't gonna have time to get the ward going. In other words, no "I cast fireball then activate the ward, so that I can cast fireballs whenever i want". However, (I don't have the books with me, so bear with estimates and memory) if you have a spell that says "can cast 1 fireball per round, for the duration of the spell" and the spell has a duration of "1 round per level". Cast the spell, the attach a perm ward, you can now eternally cast 1 fireball per round.

I'm going to touch on requirement #2 now.Physical effect. There HAS to be something to attatch the ward to. IE, a wall of force has a wall to use. A spell like "globe of daylight" doesn't have an actual solid portion to attach to. Now, if the spell was like the D&D version "light" which enchants an object to glow, then yes, you could attatch a perm ward, and it would be eternal. But, by PB, no, you're flashlight won't work.

So, no, your undead ward set wouldn't work.

There's 'stories' of GMs who allow PCs who are both accomplished diabolists and wizards to figure out how to create a new ward (I've nicknamed it the storage jar) which will hold a spell, allowing a ward phrase like the undead one you mentioned.

Of course, if you're the GM, it's all your call. Hope this helped.


Hmmm... I think I understand part 1. but a question on it, if you can place a permanence ward on a fireball to be able to eternally cast 1 fireball per round, that to me sounds a bit off... to my way of thinking if you did that, you would just have 1 fireball that you can direct mentally that sticks around with you for ever (since fireballs have no SDC). Only if you had a premade ward (lets say that its built into a staff) and cast the spell into the ward/staff much like the Talisman spell/ritual and then energized the ward, then you would be able to cast fireballs eternally at the rate of 1 per round per level of the mage at the time it was made. Thats my opinion though.

And 2. Why wouldnt you think so? if you see the rules it says any magic that is in the immediate area around the ward. So if you cast a Globe of daylight right by a permant ward and activated it, then the globe of daylight should stay there permanently. Though I guess if you really wanted to be a stickler you could I guess add an Area Effect to the Permanent.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 8:23 am
  

Hero

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verdilak wrote:
Hmmm... I think I understand part 1. but a question on it, if you can place a permanence ward on a fireball to be able to eternally cast 1 fireball per round, that to me sounds a bit off... to my way of thinking if you did that, you would just have 1 fireball that you can direct mentally that sticks around with you for ever (since fireballs have no SDC).


What I mean is, if a spell (not the spell fireball, a different spell.. we'll call it 'firetosser' for now) allowed you to cast one fireball per round. The spell is cast on the CASTER. And that's where you'd apply the perm ward. The CASTER. Not the fireball itself. See what I'm saying? If a spell is enchanting a person/item, then you can apply the ward to that person/item, to keep the spell effect.



Quote:
And 2. Why wouldnt you think so? if you see the rules it says any magic that is in the immediate area around the ward. So if you cast a Globe of daylight right by a permant ward and activated it, then the globe of daylight should stay there permanently. Though I guess if you really wanted to be a stickler you could I guess add an Area Effect to the Permanent.


Ehh.. like I said, I don't have my books with me. But, I do remember us finally deciding it wouldn't work, strictly as written. We actually had to modify some things, create a varient spell. I just don't remember all the particular details.

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GS
Galadriel in leather! Yayayayayayaya!
>>>----Therumancer--->

Well, hang on to your seats boys and girls, but I agree with GS-Veknironth

[Goliath baiting]Hey, according to my copy of Yin-Sloth Jungles, they came out in 1995. Didn't you get your copies?[/Golaith baiting]-MrNexx, regarding the OK books

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Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 11:54 am
  

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I agree with Goliath that Globe of Daylight could not be made permanent that way.
The character could, however, make permanent an "inflict light" ward, which would amount to the same thing.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 1:14 pm
  

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I would probably allow a permanent Globe of Daylight, but it wouldn't be able to leave the immediate area around the ward.
Attach the ward to a movable object, or the caster, and the globe could follow the object around.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 12:42 am
  

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verdilak wrote:

My question is since you can make magic spells permanent, how do you do so? Cast a globe of daylight for example and then activate the permantent ward, or do you do both at the same time or vice versa? Also, do you cast the spell AT the permanent ward or is close proximity enough?

Thoth used a perm ward to make a Impenetrable wall of Force spell perminent. I think this is found in the text of the Old Ones Book in 'The Places of Magic' adventure.

...snip...

Also, if you can make spells permanent can you make them triggered? Such as a permanent Trigger + Undead + Inflict + Globe of Daylight + Permanent???
Going to let others answer this one.
..snip

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Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 1:14 am
  

Hero

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Here's the rub....you have to attach the ward to the target of the spell, not just around where the spell is cast. You cast a spell on an item and then you put the ward on the item. You cast an area spell and the ward goes in the area the spell effects. Cast a spell on someone and you attach the ward to them. So what's the target of Globe of Daylight? Well, it always stays near and is under the control of only one person: the caster. You can't cast it on a buddy and let them scout ahead past the 30' radius. You cant cast it on a doorway to keep vampires out while you go explore, or make good an escape. The spell is always centered on and controlled by you. So while the Globe can move around, the actual target of the magic is you; it's a self spell. Since you can only cast it on yourself....you can only permanent that spell on yourself. That's my take.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 10:18 am
  

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Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
verdilak wrote:

My question is since you can make magic spells permanent, how do you do so? Cast a globe of daylight for example and then activate the permantent ward, or do you do both at the same time or vice versa? Also, do you cast the spell AT the permanent ward or is close proximity enough?

Thoth used a perm ward to make a Impenetrable wall of Force spell perminent. I think this is found in the text of the Old Ones Book in 'The Places of Magic' adventure.


No, he used one to make a Barrier of Thoth spell permant ;)

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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 12:21 am
  

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Sgt Anjay wrote:
Here's the rub....you have to attach the ward to the target of the spell, not just around where the spell is cast.


No, you don't.
PFRPG, p. 132
"This ward symbol must be carved from the bone of a dragon, demon, devil, godling, or god and combined with an area affect ward. Once activated, the ward is permanently affixed to that item or place and the entire ward phrase is indestructable and makes whatever other magic effect, be it caused by a ward, circle, magic curse or magic spell, permanent and always active in the immediate area around the ward!"

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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 11:27 am
  

Hero

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Read closer. The part you put into italics refers to what happens after the ward has been carved, attached, and energized. It's active in the immediate area because you attached an area effect ward, not because any spell targeted at any random thing nearby sticks to permanence wards. You attach the ward to whatever you're casting the spell onto, otherwise what's the connection between the ward and the spell?

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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 7:55 pm
  

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Sgt Anjay wrote:
Read closer. The part you put into italics refers to what happens after the ward has been carved, attached, and energized.


Yes, attached to an item or to a PLACE.
It NEVER ONCE says that it has to be attached to the Target of the Spell.

Quote:
It's active in the immediate area because you attached an area effect ward, not because any spell targeted at any random thing nearby sticks to permanence wards. You attach the ward to whatever you're casting the spell onto, otherwise what's the connection between the ward and the spell?


The connection is that you intend to make that spell permanent.
The ward can be placed anywhere near the spell.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 7:01 am
  

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In the Rifter 25, page 93/94, under the heading Questions & Answers
By Rodney Stott, Shawn Merrow & Kevin Siembieda


What are the rules for combining the Permanence
Ward with normal spells? I can see how they
could be added to circles.


The spell itself must be cast when the Permanence Ward is
activated by the Diabolist. This requires both spell casters to
work together.
Only spells which have a duration can be enhanced by the
Permanence Ward, so it cannot be used to make spells like Fire
Ball permanent.
If the ward is used to make a spell like Armour of Ithan permanent,
it will not provide any magical regeneration, so once
the magical armor's S.D.C. has been depleted, it will not regenerate
back to normal.
The ward itself must be fixed to the target of the spell, or be
within its area of effect (attached to the floor or wall, a door,
etc.). For example, a permanent Wall of Fire would need the
ward fixed to the floor under the wall of fire itself. If attached to
a living creature (i.e., human) it must be physically attached
such as placed under the skin or sewn to the skin of the person
to be affected.

Can the Power Ward be used to enhance Spell
Magic?


No, the Power Ward cannot be used to enhance Spell Magic,
it can only be used for boosting other wards and affecting Ward
Magic.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 12:16 pm
  

Hero

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as far as i know the permanence ward works just fine with most every circle or ward phrase already.

as for incantations and the permanence ward i would allow for a spell such as GoD to be used with a permanence ward, but with a catch. you would have to come up with a spell trigger for the spell/ward (just like a ward trigger). once triggered the globe of daylight spell would come into existence for the duration of the spell (at whatever duration is appropriate for the caster level of whoever originally cast it), then disappear until it was triggered again.

this of course only works for spells that have a duration longer than instant.

for those who insist on the spell/ward working on all spells, even instant ones ... i would not allow it, but here's my take on it anyway.

if for example, a character did figure out how to get an instant spell effect such as fire ball to work with a permanence ward, they would have a permanent flame thrower on their hands. the spell would be in a constant 'on' state and would cast fireballs so rapidly that it would in effect be a constant stream of fire spitting out of the end of the do-dad (one 'instant' effect after another). not exactly the easiest thing to carry around, but great when installed into ... oh say ... a dungeon trap.

i hope this makes sense.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 1:22 am
  

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Nah, the problem with the first post is that it wasn't a standard ward phrase. Not unless they made a ward for Globe of Daylight :lol:

Anyway. the spell is always active, hence the Armor of Ithan problem. Now the spell Invincible Armor, that solves that non-regenerating MDC on a permanent armor spell quite nicely.

I would have to agree on the whole Globe of Daylight. You would just have a permanent ball of light following you around. What would happen if you were in the back of a jeep? You in a vehicle going 30 mph, while the Globe has a spd of what, 10? That's only 6 mph or so. Acutaly, that would make a good curse, so long as they don't know to remove that little 'bump' in their skin.

<sneak><sneak>"Pssst! Bob! That ball of light is back! RUUUNNN" <sounds of CS laser fire> :lol:

A good question would be if you were to combine the Permanence ward and a Metamorphosis, would the person be able to shift through all the available forms indefinatly, or would they be stuck in the first form they took?

Another good thing would be the Permanence ward combined with the Lifeward. Insta-Promethian! 8-)

There is also another question. Permanence ward and Energy Sphere. The sphere stays around, but what about the amount of PPE inside... Can you still access it?

Or the Ley Line Tendril Bolts. Would you still be able to attack with them, even after you left the LL? Or would it be like an artificial ability that only surfaces when on or near a Ley Line?

Fire Globe is another. Does it go off, but still leave a globe of fire behind, or does it simply not go off?

Heh, very interesting thread.


PS: The fireball thing was a spell that let him throw fireballs every attack, not the fireball spell which has been previously stated that the Permanence ward won't work on.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 6:44 am
  

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Hero

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I'd go with a permanence ward and the spell Ligthning Arc, it has a duration of one melee per level of the caster, and it specifically says that the caster can make other actions and even cast other spells and still use the lightning arc whenever until the duration ends.

Boy do I ever want to make golems with magical attacks now. :)


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Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 7:25 am
  

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Hero

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Why go with something as weak as lightening arc? How about invulnerability? Or little force? or like he said invincible armor, or supernatural endurance/strength/speed/magical adrenal rush/speed weapon??? That's the way to go...

Anyway, the reason I even entered this thread was to ask: what're the rules about attaching a permenance ward to supernatural creatures/creatures of magic? Are you allowed to attach all those things to a godling? Also how could you make a permenant summoning like say phantom the air warlock spell, or something? Finally, is there a limit to how many wards you can attach to a single being? Like can I make 10+ spells permenant on a being if I have the necessary bones?

Maybe a copy of the entire spell would be helpful, I dunno.

Thanks

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Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 12:36 pm
  

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Crazy Lou wrote:
Why go with something as weak as lightening arc? How about invulnerability? Or little force? or like he said invincible armor, or supernatural endurance/strength/speed/magical adrenal rush/speed weapon??? That's the way to go...

Anyway, the reason I even entered this thread was to ask: what're the rules about attaching a permenance ward to supernatural creatures/creatures of magic? Are you allowed to attach all those things to a godling? Also how could you make a permenant summoning like say phantom the air warlock spell, or something? Finally, is there a limit to how many wards you can attach to a single being? Like can I make 10+ spells permenant on a being if I have the necessary bones?

Maybe a copy of the entire spell would be helpful, I dunno.

Thanks


Only one perm ward per person and only on mortals no supernatural and no creatures of magic

-and as a note wearing constant pinkish glowing platemail (Invincable Armor) would be quite inconveniot

-I'd go with the permenent 4-D transformation and since you never leave the transformation you'll never go insane

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Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 6:16 pm
  

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Hero

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Good thinking on the 4-D thing. Out of curiosity, what happens if you try to put multiples on a person? Does it just not work, or does something bad happen, or what?

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Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:18 pm
  

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Crazy Lou wrote:
Good thinking on the 4-D thing. Out of curiosity, what happens if you try to put multiples on a person? Does it just not work, or does something bad happen, or what?


-Not at home but I think the ward turns the person into an equvalint of a COM and new wards will simply be a watse of time as they would be incapable of being activated

-of couse you could have the old one removed (painfully and with a loss of its magic powers) and have a new one put on

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Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 3:46 pm
  

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Hero

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Thanks much.

Btw, about your signature, wouldn't the answer to the 4D cube riddle be that it dosn't look like anything because a cube is a 3 dimensional object, so it can't exist in a 4th dimensional plane? The 4th dimensional equivelent would be a hypercube, not just a cube, so it's a trick question b/c things of a lower or higher dimension can't exist in any but their own. For instance, a peice of paper is considered 2D by most standards, but really it's 3D but it has extremely small depth. The same goes for a line drawn by a pencil or pen, right?

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