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 Post subject: Prices.
Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:00 pm
  

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Dungeon Crawler

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How much should a mage charge for the following?

Witches bottle, dimensional pocket, teleport: lesser, love charm, create wood, iron wood, amulet, talisman, create steel, clay of stone to iron, create golem, clay to stone, mend the broken, exorcism, remove curse, summon and control rain, collapse, etc?


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 Post subject: Re: Prices.
Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:50 pm
  

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Palladium Books® Freelance Writer

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My usual rule-of-thumb, assuming the magic is relatively available, is 50-100 credits (or gold) per PPE. Using this, witch bottle is going to be roughly 1400-2800 gold. They might upcharge for something like Exorcism (it puts them in danger, after all). Notably, I'd say Create Golem would be a LOT more expensive, since it requires both a lot of materials AND permanent HP... it's one thing to deplete your PPE for the day, it's quite another to invest your literal life force (and the golem created would belong to the wizard, unless an alchemist was the caster and used his arts to reassign the ownership).

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When I see someone "fisking" these days my first inclination is to think "That person doesn't have much to say, and says it in volume." -John Scalzi
Whiskerbutt (n): homemade RPG materials found in secondhand RPG materials.
[T]he Republicans [are] unique relics of the past. - Sourcebook 1 (revised, p. 6)

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 Post subject: Re: Prices.
Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:37 pm
  

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Monk

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Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
Mark Hall wrote:
My usual rule-of-thumb, assuming the magic is relatively available, is 50-100 credits (or gold) per PPE. Using this, witch bottle is going to be roughly 1400-2800 gold. They might upcharge for something like Exorcism (it puts them in danger, after all). Notably, I'd say Create Golem would be a LOT more expensive, since it requires both a lot of materials AND permanent HP... it's one thing to deplete your PPE for the day, it's quite another to invest your literal life force (and the golem created would belong to the wizard, unless an alchemist was the caster and used his arts to reassign the ownership).


Not sure anything in Alchemy let's them reassign ownership of golems. More likely it falls under their scroll writing service and they give you a scroll for you to cast and be the caster.

_________________
Sometimes, you're like a beacon of light in the darkness, giving me some hope for humankind. ~ Killer Cyborg

You can have something done good, fast and cheap. If you want it done good and fast, it's not going to be cheap. If you want it done fast and cheap it won't be good. If you want something done good and cheap it won't be done fast. ~ Dark Brandon


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 Post subject: Re: Prices.
Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2019 10:52 am
  

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Knight

Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:50 am
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ShadowHawk wrote:
How much should a mage charge for the following?

Witches bottle, dimensional pocket, teleport: lesser, love charm, create wood, iron wood, amulet, talisman, create steel, clay of stone to iron, create golem, clay to stone, mend the broken, exorcism, remove curse, summon and control rain, collapse, etc?

I'd use the cost of the specific case as a Magic Scroll (which is based on level), even if you can't put a Ritual into one the level would give an idea.


Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:
My usual rule-of-thumb, assuming the magic is relatively available, is 50-100 credits (or gold) per PPE. Using this, witch bottle is going to be roughly 1400-2800 gold. They might upcharge for something like Exorcism (it puts them in danger, after all). Notably, I'd say Create Golem would be a LOT more expensive, since it requires both a lot of materials AND permanent HP... it's one thing to deplete your PPE for the day, it's quite another to invest your literal life force (and the golem created would belong to the wizard, unless an alchemist was the caster and used his arts to reassign the ownership).


Not sure anything in Alchemy let's them reassign ownership of golems. More likely it falls under their scroll writing service and they give you a scroll for you to cast and be the caster.

Can you even put a Ritual on Magic Scroll? I mean there is setup and other aspects of the ritual that wouldn't be transferred based on the description of Create Magic Scroll. The Alchmist Shop text in PF2E (pg248 indicates you can't put a Ritual into a scroll)

As for the Golem specifically, the easiest way I can see to explain it is that the owner is the person who donates the blood/life force in the ritual that activates the Golem and it is just assumed to be the mystic in the description.


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 Post subject: Re: Prices.
Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2019 10:56 am
  

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Monk

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Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
Nothing in the spell indicates you cannot. One assumes the scroll just has written instructions for the ritual

_________________
Sometimes, you're like a beacon of light in the darkness, giving me some hope for humankind. ~ Killer Cyborg

You can have something done good, fast and cheap. If you want it done good and fast, it's not going to be cheap. If you want it done fast and cheap it won't be good. If you want something done good and cheap it won't be done fast. ~ Dark Brandon


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 Post subject: Re: Prices.
Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2019 12:44 pm
  

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Palladium Books® Freelance Writer

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Comment: My comments do not necessarily represent the views of Palladium Books.
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:
My usual rule-of-thumb, assuming the magic is relatively available, is 50-100 credits (or gold) per PPE. Using this, witch bottle is going to be roughly 1400-2800 gold. They might upcharge for something like Exorcism (it puts them in danger, after all). Notably, I'd say Create Golem would be a LOT more expensive, since it requires both a lot of materials AND permanent HP... it's one thing to deplete your PPE for the day, it's quite another to invest your literal life force (and the golem created would belong to the wizard, unless an alchemist was the caster and used his arts to reassign the ownership).


Not sure anything in Alchemy let's them reassign ownership of golems.


It does as I wrote it. Not my fault they haven't published a manuscript they've had for about 18 years, or the revised version they've had for 13 years.

_________________
When I see someone "fisking" these days my first inclination is to think "That person doesn't have much to say, and says it in volume." -John Scalzi
Whiskerbutt (n): homemade RPG materials found in secondhand RPG materials.
[T]he Republicans [are] unique relics of the past. - Sourcebook 1 (revised, p. 6)

The Truth About Ogres: Posted 2019.09.04
All Palladium Articles


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 Post subject: Re: Prices.
Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2019 1:39 pm
  

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Monk

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Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
Mark Hall wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:
My usual rule-of-thumb, assuming the magic is relatively available, is 50-100 credits (or gold) per PPE. Using this, witch bottle is going to be roughly 1400-2800 gold. They might upcharge for something like Exorcism (it puts them in danger, after all). Notably, I'd say Create Golem would be a LOT more expensive, since it requires both a lot of materials AND permanent HP... it's one thing to deplete your PPE for the day, it's quite another to invest your literal life force (and the golem created would belong to the wizard, unless an alchemist was the caster and used his arts to reassign the ownership).


Not sure anything in Alchemy let's them reassign ownership of golems.


It does as I wrote it. Not my fault they haven't published a manuscript they've had for about 18 years, or the revised version they've had for 13 years.


Well sorry nothing lets me read a book that hasn't been released yet. I can only argue the rules currently published :P

_________________
Sometimes, you're like a beacon of light in the darkness, giving me some hope for humankind. ~ Killer Cyborg

You can have something done good, fast and cheap. If you want it done good and fast, it's not going to be cheap. If you want it done fast and cheap it won't be good. If you want something done good and cheap it won't be done fast. ~ Dark Brandon


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 Post subject: Re: Prices.
Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2019 4:56 pm
  

Palladin

Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:11 pm
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the rifts version of create magic scroll implies that ritually casting the spell merely transfers the spell save.


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 Post subject: Re: Prices.
Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2019 7:43 pm
  

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Monk

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Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
Shark_Force wrote:
the rifts version of create magic scroll implies that ritually casting the spell merely transfers the spell save.

"Here is a scroll of your ritual casting of Carpet of adhesion. But be warned! the ritual version of carpet of adhesion merely transfers the higher save of a ritual casting along with the effect of carpet of adhesion!"

That is littearlly all that one would want of a ritual spell, so nothing seems to be missing? It has the effect of a ritual, the higher save of a ritual, that would seem to be a 100% proof that you can in fact create scrolls of rituals?

_________________
Sometimes, you're like a beacon of light in the darkness, giving me some hope for humankind. ~ Killer Cyborg

You can have something done good, fast and cheap. If you want it done good and fast, it's not going to be cheap. If you want it done fast and cheap it won't be good. If you want something done good and cheap it won't be done fast. ~ Dark Brandon


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 Post subject: Re: Prices.
Unread postPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:21 pm
  

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Knight

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Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Nothing in the spell indicates you cannot. One assumes the scroll just has written instructions for the ritual

Nothing in the spell indicates you can either, in fact there is some circumstantial evidence you can't even if we ignore the outright statement that you can't (PF2E).

1. Palladium Fantasy 2E pg 248 "Any level spell (not rituals) can be turned into a magic scroll spell.", from the Alchemist Shop text concerning Magic Scrolls. AFAIK there aren't any examples that contradict this by specifically calling it out.

2. There are 4 categories of magic (RUE pg186): "Spell (spoken), rituals (performed), summoning (either), and special OCC powers". Text for the Scroll only ever indicate Spells and in fact does not even mention Ritual magic, which by all indications appears to be a separate category of magic. PF2E isn't any different really, but it lists additional types.

3. Per the Create Magic Scroll Spell the scroll with have Spell Strength of 12, 16 if the CMS is performed as part of a Ritual (which it is essentially anyway).

4. The only things indicated to appear on the scroll is the incantation, nothing about stage directions is ever indicated to appear (I suppose those could be done manually).


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 Post subject: Re: Prices.
Unread postPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:15 pm
  

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Monk

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Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
1. Alchemists cannot use their OCC ability to write scrolls to write ritual scrolls. has no bearing on the spells limitations or lack thereof.

2. This is true, but again, while the alchemist text says they can only do invocations, the Create Scroll Spell says any Magic, not any Invocation. in fact, the scroll says "The only real limitation other than sufficent P.P.E. is the mage must be able to read or write. Again, your conflating rules for a class ability with the spell. There's nothing saying an alchamist must know the spell Create Magic Scroll to be an alchemist, so nothing indicates that the spell is what Alchemists use. It's a class ability with different rules than the spell, and sinse not all alchemists know the Create Magic Scroll spell, that's why it's there.

3. Not sure how this is relevent.

4: Which is fine, sinse it only has to be read aloud, it's probablly more likely casting the spell as a ritual for a scroll includes doing the performance while making the scroll so you don't have to do it while reading the scroll. In fact, i've had high level characters specifically make scrolls of their rituals in advance to get around the inconveince of time later on.

basically Alchemist class Ability and the spell are different. Alchmists class ability can't do rituals, the spell can. The spell says the Only limitation is lack of PPE, meaning there can't be a limitation on making scrolls of rituals. It just means any such scroll has a save of 12 unless you also do the create magic scroll spell as a ritual. That doesn't imply the spell on the scroll cannot be a ritual, and the line saying "The only real limitation is PPE and needing to be able to read and write" meaning "rituals are not a limitation" by default as it is neither of those things.

_________________
Sometimes, you're like a beacon of light in the darkness, giving me some hope for humankind. ~ Killer Cyborg

You can have something done good, fast and cheap. If you want it done good and fast, it's not going to be cheap. If you want it done fast and cheap it won't be good. If you want something done good and cheap it won't be done fast. ~ Dark Brandon


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 Post subject: Re: Prices.
Unread postPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 12:46 pm
  

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Knight

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1. Pg247-248 discusses Selling Scrolls, but that is not an OCC ability per say (even the part about Rituals being unavailable is repeated on pg247). AFAIK they don't have a unique version of Create Magic Scroll, and do so via regular methods.

Scroll Conversion ability is identical to the Wizard (pg105-6), which only allows one to convert a Scroll into a Spell Incantation. It is also limited to just the incantation (ie spoken word, and we know Rituals involve more than just the words spoken):
-"a function magic spell incantation"
-"same basic effect as casting a spell"
-"exact spell equivalent"
-"convert a scroll into a spell,"
-"succeeded in creating a working magic incantation, but not necessarily the spell desired."

2. Except it also states "In this case, the mage can magically make the words for casting a magic spell appear on paper as a scroll. [followed your quote]." The next paragraph starts "Once a spell [...] To activate the magic spell contained on the scroll" and in the last paragarph "Note: The power of the scroll-spell". They don't mentions Rituals (or Circles, etc) at all, and only reference "spell", until discussing the Saving Throw of the Scroll which can be learned as a Spell or Ritual.

4. Except it would matter. For the Rituals to work you need the props and proper gestures to go along. It isn't just the words. Plus depending on which description of CMS one uses (Rifts BoM vs PF2E for ex) will create incompatibilities or be enough to disrupt the ritual.

In some cases there would also be questions associated with use for specific rituals. Examples:
-does Create Zombie Scroll get around restrictions on creation (location, time, how long they've been dead).
-what about Create Mummy Scroll. It targets a corpse wrapped in linen strips treated with magic solution. Is that process part of the ritual?
-Circle/Pentagram based magic requires the mage to be in the Circle/Pentagram to be able to use the Circle/pentagram in many cases (if not all). How can the Scroll user receive the benifits if not in the Circle/pentagram?
-Create Golem has the issue of ownership and the requirement of creating the target of the ritual.


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 Post subject: Re: Prices.
Unread postPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 2:42 pm
  

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Monk

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Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
1: It doesn't say they have a version of Create Magic Scroll at all, or that they use it. Meaning there's still no reason to think that limitations to the alchmists ability to write scrolls (or convert them for that matter) relate to the spell, which clearly says it has no such limitation. Not simply does not address unwritten limitations, but specifically says the only limitation is PPE and the ability to read and right. the actual text of the spell itself says your limitation does not exist.

2. Cool, so that means scrolls of rituals are even more useful than the rituals themselves. Doesn't prove you can't make scrolls into rituals. I've played in several games where this worked this way

4: And you can cast Create Magic Scroll as part of a ritual, so you simply preload the rituals magic into the scroll which gets released when the words are later spoken. The actual performace was done during the writing of the scroll so there's no missing element, the scroll just allows a delay between performing a ritual and the magic being released.

This seems to be going in circles, so I think I'll just go ahead and make my closing argument with a quote

"The only real limitation other than sufficient P.P.E. is that the mage must be able to read and write. Ifhe cannot read, he can't create a scroll"

As far as i'm concerned, this basically is complete and conclusive proof that Scrolls can do rituals, because "excluding rituals" would be a real limitation other than PPE and the ability to read and write. It certainly was necessary to put it in the alchemist section, but that is actually better evidence for my case, that they needed to show that scrolls created by alchemical arts are distinct from scrolls created by the spell, which was quite high level and in fact level 11 is such a high level even alchmists don't have ready access to them. So no real way to say alchemists have the spell at all, yet all ahcemists can create scrolls.

But limitations of the alchemist ability do not mean a limitation on the spell, as the spell itself precludes such a limitation. so unless you have something other than "But alchemists can't", then all you've proven is Alchemists are not using Create Magic Scroll, not that Create magic scroll has a limitation it's own text clearly states it cannot have.

_________________
Sometimes, you're like a beacon of light in the darkness, giving me some hope for humankind. ~ Killer Cyborg

You can have something done good, fast and cheap. If you want it done good and fast, it's not going to be cheap. If you want it done fast and cheap it won't be good. If you want something done good and cheap it won't be done fast. ~ Dark Brandon


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 Post subject: Re: Prices.
Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 10:08 am
  

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Knight

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Yes I agree it does seem to be going in circles. While you may have played in groups that allowed Rituals to be put into Scrolls, that might have been house rules (knowingly or unknowingly).

1. I know it says they don't have a version of CSM, that is my point. That means they have to use the standard wizard invocation since Scroll Conversion works the other way. Scroll Conversion also limits what you can get out of the conversion process to a spell. Ritual Scrolls aren't even considered or mentioned in Scroll Conversion, further indicating they are not a thing.

EDIT (If the Alchemist uses a variant, what purpose would it serve them over just learning the regular version to side step the restriction and using that as the basis for creating scrolls to sell?).

4. Yes CMS can be cast as a ritual, but the Spell being put onto the Scroll can not be a Ritual. Text clearly indicates Scrolls are only good for putting "Spells" onto them, and the only thing you can get out of them, as we know Spells and Rituals are different.

""The only real limitation other than sufficient P.P.E. is that the mage must be able to read and write. Ifhe cannot read, he can't create a scroll"
This is not an open door statement to include other categories of magic since the text as a whole limits it to spell type of Invocations on multiple occasions. And there is text elsewhere that supports the premise that Scrolls are only suitable for Spells and not rituals.


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 Post subject: Re: Prices.
Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 7:38 pm
  

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Monk

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Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
And you saying scrolls made by CMS can't contain rituals might be a houserule you used, knowingly or unkowning, as well. That's kind of what we're debating isn't it? :lol:

That said, I think said debate has run it's course and it's time to just agree to disagree. what I said hasn't convinced you, and what you had to say didn't convince me. If we ever play at the other's table, we'd go with the GM's ruling and be fine with it, so I wish ya fun gaming, whatever rules you use at your table. :ok:

_________________
Sometimes, you're like a beacon of light in the darkness, giving me some hope for humankind. ~ Killer Cyborg

You can have something done good, fast and cheap. If you want it done good and fast, it's not going to be cheap. If you want it done fast and cheap it won't be good. If you want something done good and cheap it won't be done fast. ~ Dark Brandon


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 Post subject: Re: Prices.
Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:28 pm
  

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Champion

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Greetings and Salutations. For those who feel that ritual magic can be put into a scroll (via Create Magic Scroll spell or ritual), and that the only limitation is that you have to be able to read/write and have sufficient P.P.E., I do have a couple of questions. These are genuine questions, as I'm just trying to get an overall feel for how this interpretation works. I can't evaluate if I like or dislike something until I understand it, and right now I don't.

1a: Does a Wizard's bonuses to Spell Strength increase ritual strength as well? So, for example, an 8th level Wizard has +3 to Spell Strength. That raises the Save vs. Spell Magic from 12 to 15. Does the Save vs. Ritual increase from 16 to 19, or does it remain 16?

1b: If it benefits ritual magic as well (ergo, Save vs. Ritual 19), if more than one Wizard participates in the spell does it add all their Spell Strengths, just the one leading it, other?

2a: If the only limitation is being able to read/write and having sufficient P.P.E., can you create a scroll of a spell you don't know? So if I know Create Magic Scroll, but I don't know Sanctuary, can I still put it into a scroll if I know how to write and can gather enough P.P.E.?

2b: If so, can you then use the Wizard ability to convert the scroll back into a spell and learn it that way? If not, then what other unwritten limitations do you include?

Note: Question #2 might sound like an attempt to exploit the rules (and/or a ridiculous scenario), but it's more my attempt to figure out how it works. Palladium differentiates between "spell" and "ritual" as different types of magic, so if the only limitation is the ability to read/write and have enough P.P.E. overrides that difference, then I'm curious what else it overrides. If different examples can be provided to show the limitations, I'd be interested.

Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys.

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 Post subject: Re: Prices.
Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:04 am
  

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Monk

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Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
Prysus wrote:
[justify]Greetings and Salutations. For those who feel that ritual magic can be put into a scroll (via Create Magic Scroll spell or ritual), and that the only limitation is that you have to be able to read/write and have sufficient P.P.E., I do have a couple of questions. These are genuine questions, as I'm just trying to get an overall feel for how this interpretation works. I can't evaluate if I like or dislike something until I understand it, and right now I don't.

1a: Does a Wizard's bonuses to Spell Strength increase ritual strength as well? So, for example, an 8th level Wizard has +3 to Spell Strength. That raises the Save vs. Spell Magic from 12 to 15. Does the Save vs. Ritual increase from 16 to 19, or does it remain 16?


PF Main book says plainly bonuses to spell strength do not apply to rituals as an explict rule of rituals. Page 182.

Quote:
1b: If it benefits ritual magic as well (ergo, Save vs. Ritual 19), if more than one Wizard participates in the spell does it add all their Spell Strengths, just the one leading it, other?


See 1a

Quote:
2a: If the only limitation is being able to read/write and having sufficient P.P.E., can you create a scroll of a spell you don't know? So if I know Create Magic Scroll, but I don't know Sanctuary, can I still put it into a scroll if I know how to write and can gather enough P.P.E.?

2b: If so, can you then use the Wizard ability to convert the scroll back into a spell and learn it that way? If not, then what other unwritten limitations do you include?

Note: Question #2 might sound like an attempt to exploit the rules (and/or a ridiculous scenario), but it's more my attempt to figure out how it works. Palladium differentiates between "spell" and "ritual" as different types of magic, so if the only limitation is the ability to read/write and have enough P.P.E. overrides that difference, then I'm curious what else it overrides. If different examples can be provided to show the limitations, I'd be interested.


No, but a preist of level 6 or higher can write a spell of any spell their God knows, so if you have a preist of Thoth, your preist could scribe a spell and your wizard could convert it and learn it that way.

_________________
Sometimes, you're like a beacon of light in the darkness, giving me some hope for humankind. ~ Killer Cyborg

You can have something done good, fast and cheap. If you want it done good and fast, it's not going to be cheap. If you want it done fast and cheap it won't be good. If you want something done good and cheap it won't be done fast. ~ Dark Brandon


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 Post subject: Re: Prices.
Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:27 am
  

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Knight

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@Nekira
I don't think it was a houserule. There are a lot of statements surrounding Scrolls that state Scrolls only containing Spells and not Rituals as the two are different types of magic.

@Prysus
1a. No, per text Rituals are fixed in Strength. Plus per text The Create Magic Scroll Invocation is fixed at Base Strength levels (12 if cast as a spell, 16 as a ritual), Priest Scrolls are variable though
1b. Not an issue as Rituals are fixed in Strength.

2a. no you can not create a scroll of a spell you did not have access to. it would be reasonable to suggest a caster could "scroll" another caster's casting of a spell.


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 Post subject: Re: Prices.
Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 11:14 am
  

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Dungeon Crawler

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Posts: 271
@EVERYONE:

Please stop hijacking posts to have a debates/arguments over stuff that doesn't concern the topic. Why don't you guys start a new thread? Might I suggest "Rituals v/s Scrolls"? I am not an expert on the subject, however, in Shannon's games I can't learn a ritual by scroll. So I have to find a book or a master. Feel free to GM as you see fit.


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 Post subject: Re: Prices.
Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:06 am
  

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Knight

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Cost examples:
Witches Bottle 4-10,000 gold (PF2E pg263)
Dimensional Pocket 90-500,000gold (PF2E pg209)
Love Charm 600gold (PF2E pg253)
Amulet, I'd use the type of amulet (pg212 PF2E) and match it up against the list examples on pg253 (PF2E) when ever possible
Talismann, since this is basically a 3 use Scroll I'd treat it as such for cost (as a PPE battery no idea)


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