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Unread postPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:54 pm
  

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The description for the spell -Speed Weapon- in Rifts: Book of Magic, pg 136, reads 'This spell can not be used on magic weapons, including bio-wizardry, rune, or techno-wizardry weapons, nor on Automatons, power armor, robots, or vehicles'.

Liberally applied, this indicates that the spell cannot be used on magic weapons/Items. Good enough.

Now, interpreted literally(or with a rules-lawyering weasel/loophole-seeking mindset :mrgreen: ), this could indicate that the spell cannot be cast on EXISTING magic items.
But might it be built into a new TW device from the onset, as part of the spell construction configuration? So that, say, TWizard Ted thinks Speed Weapon would be perfect for his proposed Paddle-Ball-o'Death melee weapon, it might be possible? In as much as it did not say the spell cannot be used IN techno-wizardry weapons?

Thoughts? Opinions? Recriminations of 'How DARE you think such heresy?!"

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Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
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To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"

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Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 4:46 am
  

Palladin

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i would be disinclined to allow the spell to be in a device that casts it on the device (so not on a TW sword that gets the benefit of the spell's effects), with the exception of a device that is otherwise not modified (so, for example, if you want to have a TW rocket hammer that can hammer twice as fast as normal but otherwise doesn't do anything magical, i'd totally be ok with it. and just to be clear, the hammer's ability to deal mega-damage, if any, would need to be derived from allowable means, the TW part would only have the effects of the speed weapon spell, and no other spells or magical effects).

i would also allow its use in devices, but not to have the exact effect of the spell except as i noted above... for example, if you decided that speed weapon is a necessary part of a spell chain for a TW shield that floats around the user providing cover so that the shield can move quickly enough to intercept bullets, i would allow that, because while you're definitely using the spell in your TW device, the spell isn't being used on the device any more than the circle of fire spell is being used on a TW flaming sword.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 11:10 am
  

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Comment: My comments do not necessarily represent the views of Palladium Books.
I'd probably allow it. A TW's main schtick is that they can make spells to operate a bit weirdly... you don't need a Telekinetic Bolt spell to make a TK-Machinegun, you just need Telekinesis. The normal TK spell can't do anything like the TK-MG... the TW alters it to work that way.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 9:57 pm
  

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I would say no.
And this is why. If I allow it in any TW device, then I open the doors to justifying it in any and all TW weapon. At which point the limitation of it not being able to be cast on TW weapons, or Power armor or the like becomes moot and you go back to getting the absurd damage out put from it.
The spell seems pretty clearly to be designed to be an example of "this spell does not play well with others" and thus can not be combined with any other form of magic. I allow TW to bend the rules some, but not to break them. If a spell says "This spell can do X and Y but can absolutely never do Z under any circumstances... then that means that your TW is still out of luck.
Basically the spell says it can't be cast on magic items. And that means that it can't be cast on magic items. Even that magic item. Yes, even if you cast it that way. Nope, still. Even that way. No mean No.
To me there is a world of difference between "well the spell doesn't talk about this at all, so lets fudge around here" and "the spell explicitly says that I can not do this, but I am going to do it anyway"

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Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 11:41 pm
  

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Seems like when I thought about this a while back I concluded that I'd allow a very limited use of Speed Weapon in Techno-Wizardry.

Something to the effect of:
-- The weapon had to be 'mundane' to begin with.
-- One could install a Speed Weapon booster to it, but no other TW modifications.

So a Vibro-Blade or Wilk's Laser sword could have a Speed Weapon booster as long as that was the only TW function.

Even this I find to be fudging around the edges a bit.

It boils down to: does the TW modification prevent its own self from working? YMMV.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 2:00 am
  

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Mack wrote:
Seems like when I thought about this a while back I concluded that I'd allow a very limited use of Speed Weapon in Techno-Wizardry.

Something to the effect of:
-- The weapon had to be 'mundane' to begin with.
-- One could install a Speed Weapon booster to it, but no other TW modifications.

So a Vibro-Blade or Wilk's Laser sword could have a Speed Weapon booster as long as that was the only TW function.

Even this I find to be fudging around the edges a bit.

It boils down to: does the TW modification prevent its own self from working? YMMV.

I would allow something like a TW glove that can cast Speed Weapon on a completely mundane weapon wielded in that hand.
I might even allow a sort of 'booster' that can be slipped on to another totally mundane weapon to speed it up.

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The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


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Unread postPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 4:50 am
  

Palladin

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eliakon wrote:
Mack wrote:
Seems like when I thought about this a while back I concluded that I'd allow a very limited use of Speed Weapon in Techno-Wizardry.

Something to the effect of:
-- The weapon had to be 'mundane' to begin with.
-- One could install a Speed Weapon booster to it, but no other TW modifications.

So a Vibro-Blade or Wilk's Laser sword could have a Speed Weapon booster as long as that was the only TW function.

Even this I find to be fudging around the edges a bit.

It boils down to: does the TW modification prevent its own self from working? YMMV.

I would allow something like a TW glove that can cast Speed Weapon on a completely mundane weapon wielded in that hand.
I might even allow a sort of 'booster' that can be slipped on to another totally mundane weapon to speed it up.


well seeing as how that is functionally identical to or superior to an otherwise completely mundane weapon that can cast speed weapon on itself, seems rather pointless. i mean, the glove or attachment could be put onto a variety of weapons.

though truthfully, i find the concerns about making melee weapons too damaging to be the wrong thing to worry about. you can already put speed weapon on the crazy halberd thing from phase world for a 1d6x10 MD melee weapon that gets double actions without bending any rules at all. likewise, an otherwise completely mundane length of MDC pipe can allow a creature with high supernatural PS to double their number of attacks per round (which could in theory be more damaging than the halberd) if the spell is cast on it.

so personally, i worry about "other" stuff. double attacks with flaming swords don't worry me. double attacks with a staff that knocks people down causing them to lose an action worries me far more. double attacks with a whip that casts agony on the target worries me. double attacks with a staff that paralyzes the target one limb at a time worries me (especially if you can get your hands on the reverse stroke WP from splicers, which basically turns it into something similar to dual wielding). double attacks with a sword of atlantis that can instantly consume the soul of a target on a hit? that's worrying. doing lots of damage in melee range? meh. that can be strong, but it's pretty unlikely to be a gamebreaker. you'll probably wind up being somewhat like a glitter boy, except minus the range and the exceptional amounts of MDC and the reputation for being a defender of the helpless. i'm more worried about the power of a speed weapon neural mace than i am about a speed weapon TW flaming sword.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 7:07 pm
  

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Knight

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taalismn wrote:
The description for the spell -Speed Weapon- in Rifts: Book of Magic, pg 136, reads 'This spell can not be used on magic weapons, including bio-wizardry, rune, or techno-wizardry weapons, nor on Automatons, power armor, robots, or vehicles'.

Liberally applied, this indicates that the spell cannot be used on magic weapons/Items. Good enough.

Now, interpreted literally(or with a rules-lawyering weasel/loophole-seeking mindset :mrgreen: ), this could indicate that the spell cannot be cast on EXISTING magic items.
But might it be built into a new TW device from the onset, as part of the spell construction configuration? So that, say, TWizard Ted thinks Speed Weapon would be perfect for his proposed Paddle-Ball-o'Death melee weapon, it might be possible? In as much as it did not say the spell cannot be used IN techno-wizardry weapons?

Thoughts? Opinions? Recriminations of 'How DARE you think such heresy?!"

We KNOW IT CAN be put into a TW Device as part of the spell construction configuration.

WB16's (pg120, BoM pg317) Battle Fury Blades use "Speed Weapon" as part of the required spell list.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 8:03 pm
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
[
We KNOW IT CAN be put into a TW Device as part of the spell construction configuration.

WB16's (pg120, BoM pg317) Battle Fury Blades use "Speed Weapon" as part of the required spell list.



Good catch there, Shadowlogan. But, everybody else also offers good arguments for and against use/abuse of the spell, which I'll take into consideration when creating stuff. "No, your 'pimp-slapper gauntlet' winds up doing 3d6x10 MD....NOT allowing it.""Aww shucks."

_________________
-------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"

--------Rudyard Kipling
------------


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Unread postPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:40 am
  

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Knight

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taalismn wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:
[
We KNOW IT CAN be put into a TW Device as part of the spell construction configuration.

WB16's (pg120, BoM pg317) Battle Fury Blades use "Speed Weapon" as part of the required spell list.



Good catch there, Shadowlogan. But, everybody else also offers good arguments for and against use/abuse of the spell, which I'll take into consideration when creating stuff. "No, your 'pimp-slapper gauntlet' winds up doing 3d6x10 MD....NOT allowing it.""Aww shucks."

It's been pointed out in the past on the boards on this same topic.

I would point out for all practical purposes all "Speed Weapon" amount to is "WP: Paired Weapons" without the second weapon. One is more likely to encounter WP: Paired Weapons with a pair of weapons than a mage or TW device with Speed Weapon IMHO, and there are examples of RANGED weapons use in this configuration (mostly in New West).

The thing with TW weapons is that the GM has final say in the outcome, so getting a 3d6x10MD per strike melee weapon might not be that easy (outside of Ley Line/Nexus influence). And based on BoM examples of melee weapons it also seems unlikely (1d6x10MD and 2d4x10MD is the best I could find).


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Unread postPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 11:47 pm
  

Hero

Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:49 am
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taalismn wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:
[
We KNOW IT CAN be put into a TW Device as part of the spell construction configuration.

WB16's (pg120, BoM pg317) Battle Fury Blades use "Speed Weapon" as part of the required spell list.



Good catch there, Shadowlogan. But, everybody else also offers good arguments for and against use/abuse of the spell, which I'll take into consideration when creating stuff. "No, your 'pimp-slapper gauntlet' winds up doing 3d6x10 MD....NOT allowing it.""Aww shucks."

What if I limit it to 1000 charges with a 400 charge back-up crystal. Then would it be OK?

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Unread postPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:18 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
dreicunan wrote:
taalismn wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:
[
We KNOW IT CAN be put into a TW Device as part of the spell construction configuration.

WB16's (pg120, BoM pg317) Battle Fury Blades use "Speed Weapon" as part of the required spell list.



Good catch there, Shadowlogan. But, everybody else also offers good arguments for and against use/abuse of the spell, which I'll take into consideration when creating stuff. "No, your 'pimp-slapper gauntlet' winds up doing 3d6x10 MD....NOT allowing it.""Aww shucks."

What if I limit it to 1000 charges with a 400 charge back-up crystal. Then would it be OK?

:lol: :lol: :lol:

_________________
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


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Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:38 pm
  

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I agree that the Battlefury blade sets a precedent that it is possible to cast the spell on items and then make them magic and still have it work. The PPE spent is simply extending the duration of the already-cast spell rather than re-casting it.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 1:08 am
  

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As part of a TW build, I'd allow it to grant two extra attacks.

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