An idea...Magic/Psionics

[barna10]

I've been mulling over an idea for the last few months. This idea involves the very nature of Psionics and Magic in the game.

To me, Psionics is the manipulation of the physical world using mental/internal energy while Magic is manipulation of the energy and fabric of nature using external forces.

Because of this view, the building-up of energy makes sense for Psionics, but not for Mages. So, I have an idea for a house rule:

Psionics get I.S.P. as normal. However, Psionics are really manipulating the fabric of reality around them using their own will power. Because of this, they can not only develop psionic powers, but can also develop spells as psionic powers. Basically, instead of taking a psionic power, they can choose a spell instead. The spell functions exactly as it does for a mage, except it is psionic in nature (not affected by anti-magic effects). Any spell of 4th level or less can be taken in place of a minor power, 5th level or higher are Master/Super psionic powers. Victims save against psionics as normal.

Magic-users channel magical energy. Hermetic mages channel the power of nature, Shamans and priests channel the power of spirits, divine beings, or intelligences. They learn spells as normal. Instead of building P.P.E. reserves, they can channel a certain amount of of P.P.E. per action. This is determined as follows:
Hermetics: P.E./6 + character level
Shaman/Priest:M.A./6 + character level

So, a 3rd level mage with a 12 P.E. can channel 5 P.P.E. per action.

Also, mages can burn HP to channel more P.P.E. in one action. This P.P.E. can be channeled over several actions to allow for the casting of higher level spells.

There is a limit to how long a character can channel energy. A mage can channel energy for a number of actions equal to his M.E.. After this he must begin rolling saves vs. Insanity to avoid losing his concentration. If he loses his concentration, all the P.P.E. he's built-up fizzles back into nature. Also, if the mage suffers damage, he must also save vs Insanity with a penalty equal to the damage taken to maintain concentration.

Also, I'd like to impose a level limit for spells = M.E./6 + level(in a magic class).

This has many interesting applications. First, a god might grant a boon to a priest allowing him greater channeling. Also, this would allow for Hedge Witches or apprentices to learn spell casting by learning the Principles of Magic skill but being limited to a P.P.E. channeling of only P.E./6 and a max spell level of their M.E./6.

Lastly, you could adjust the divisors to fit your campaign. For a low magic setting, you may wish to divide by 10 or more (real low channeling and low spell level limit). Or, in a setting like RIFTS, you may wish to lower the divisor to allow for greater channeling and a higher spell level limit. Lastly, you could have differing divisors for channeling and spell level limit.

So, why the change? I want Psionics and Magic to me more distinct than they are now, mechanically. They have different flavors, but they are very similar mechanically. Also, the Mystic debate has always bugged me. It's always touted in several games that magic and psionics shalt not be mixed, but then you have Mystics. With these new rules, psionics and magic are truly separate. One could be psionic and then learn to channel magic. The mechanics are completely different and don't rely on the building-up of two types of energy.

What do you think?

[Bill]

I don't like it. It makes psychics more mage-like while slapping a big limitation on actual mages.

[drewkitty ~..~]

These changes you wish to make are not compatible with the core ideas that are the underpinning of PB's magic and psionics. And some of the words you use are not compatible with the PB magic theory/mechanics.


There are already optional PPE channeling rules in R20. While these channeling rule may be well thought out, they don't mesh well with "playing the game", unless you want to play bean counter with every melee action.

Overall, have fun with your home-brew text, it is incompatible with how the PB system is played.

[ShadowLogan]

So, why the change? I want Psionics and Magic to me more distinct than they are now, mechanically. They have different flavors, but they are very similar mechanically. Also, the Mystic debate has always bugged me. It's always touted in several games that magic and psionics shalt not be mixed, but then you have Mystics. With these new rules, psionics and magic are truly separate. One could be psionic and then learn to channel magic. The mechanics are completely different and don't rely on the building-up of two types of energy.

I like the idea of using spell invocations to expand the psionic list and have even considered it myself, because it is possible for a high level psychic in some cases to run out of powers to select. It also helps that some of the psychic powers have duplicates/equivalents in spell magic (ex. Telekensis, Astral Projection, etc). You really haven't done much for psychics though to address the real drawbacks (the pitiful ISP regeneration rate, considering mages can get PPE just about anywhere)

The magic part seems overly complicated, available PPE is supposed to act as the valve you are looking for. Worry about spell level or channelling PPE seems overly complex for a tabletop game, easier to implement in a computer game.

I would not change the basic mechanics on how they work though since it isn't much different than other mechanics. It avoids a lot of unnecessary tracking. Nothing prevents a character from having both magic and psionics in general, though some races can't develop either.

I'm not sure what you refer to "in several games", but Palladium doesn't have a problem with the two mixing in the same class. You could always make it an either/or thing to be able to use, and not allowed to stack.

[barna10]

Thanks for all the feedback. It's really just a concept. I'm going to take any feedback and churn things for awhile.

[Glistam]

So, why the change? I want Psionics and Magic to me more distinct than they are now, mechanically. They have different flavors, but they are very similar mechanically. Also, the Mystic debate has always bugged me. It's always touted in several games that magic and psionics shalt not be mixed, but then you have Mystics. With these new rules, psionics and magic are truly separate. One could be psionic and then learn to channel magic. The mechanics are completely different and don't rely on the building-up of two types of energy.

I like the idea of using spell invocations to expand the psionic list and have even considered it myself, because it is possible for a high level psychic in some cases to run out of powers to select. It also helps that some of the psychic powers have duplicates/equivalents in spell magic (ex. Telekensis, Astral Projection, etc).

I put a few up in the New Psionics thread so far. I intend to add more over time.

[Library Ogre]

Using spells as stand-ins for psionic powers isn't bad, but I'd be reluctant to base PPE Channeling on PE. While it forms the core of the PPE base, it also risks that attribute being WAY too useful. I'd be more inclined to set a base amount that could be done, rather than base it on attributes... a flat 3 PPE + Character level, or whatever.

[barna10]

Using spells as stand-ins for psionic powers isn't bad, but I'd be reluctant to base PPE Channeling on PE. While it forms the core of the PPE base, it also risks that attribute being WAY too useful. I'd be more inclined to set a base amount that could be done, rather than base it on attributes... a flat 3 PPE + Character level, or whatever.

The reason I like to base things like this on attributes is so each character is different. It allows for both natural ability and skill. So, a "natural" might be as good as a 5th level character, and then that "natural" will be much better than other 5th level characters when he's 5th level. Having a flat rate for everyone might be more balanced, but it prevents character concepts like Harry Potter who was just good right off the bat.

P.E. might not be the best stat to use, but I would want to have someway of characters being stronger or weaker. It's really no different than having P.S. affect damage; some characters are stronger and do more damage. It's just in this case some characters are stronger with magic so they can channel more energy.

I thought about using M.E., especially since I am heavily influenced by Shadowrun. I would then use M.E. for Hermetics, and M.A. for Priestly types. This would allow a frail character to still be a strong caster.

[Library Ogre]

I think a varied casting stat would be appropriate; you might have ME, IQ, or MA play a part, depending on how they cast and what they did... I could see the argument for ME for most of them, but you might also decide that some characters cast through knowledge and quicker thinking... a Techno-wizard or a Wizard might do that. Or, you might devise classes of spells and have them cast differently.

[barna10]

I think a varied casting stat would be appropriate; you might have ME, IQ, or MA play a part, depending on how they cast and what they did... I could see the argument for ME for most of them, but you might also decide that some characters cast through knowledge and quicker thinking... a Techno-wizard or a Wizard might do that. Or, you might devise classes of spells and have them cast differently.

Good ideas. TW using I.Q. would be cool. Food for thought...

[Slight001]

You really haven't done much for psychics though to address the real drawbacks (the pitiful ISP regeneration rate, considering mages can get PPE just about anywhere)

Yeah I love the idea of psionics but their actual execution leaves much to be desired... wanna keep up with the mage for this combat? you only need to spend the next day (or two since I.S.P. regeneration doesn't scale with level) meanwhile the mage is topped off and ready to go... and the group is annoyed at you for playing a class with such heavy downtime.

[ShadowLogan]

There are a few ways to "fix" psychic regeneration:
- Full 8 hours of sleep will completely replenish the psychic
- Have normal foods that help with ISP regeneration, sort of like some of the drugs/potions can already provide extra ISP/powers
- Use the Animal Psionic Rules, which basically means no ISP cost, though some form of mental exhaustion would probably need to be worked out as a balance
- Change Per Hour rates into Per Minute Rates (for low intensity situations) and/or Per Level
- Equipment that improves recovery (but isn't necessarily Psionic Technology, which could itself be used)

A way w/n the system though would be to Astral Project to the Astral Plane since time moves at different rates (1week AP = 1 minute PP), which means it is possible to quickly replenish IF you have Astral Projection and enough ISP remaining, neither are a guarantee. And it isn't like Mages don't have the option to duplicate this either as they can Astral Project, they also have Time Hole (IIRC).

[Library Ogre]

I'll point out a counterpoint:

Against non-psychics, psionic powers that allow a save are as effective as ritual magic.
Many psionic powers don't allow a save are are very difficult to defend against.

[barna10]

What are magic and psionics?  Outside of roleplaying games the two are often confused and intermingled.  One doesn’t have to look further than pulp shows of the day where it seems every witch, warlock, or wizard has a mixture of psionics and magic, at least as defined by the terms we understand.

But what are they, really?  Psionics is the use of willpower to manipulate or sense reality.  The power comes from within.  Magic is similar, but it involves channeling forces from the world around you and using these forces to affect or change reality.  The differences are often subtle, but the difference in mechanics shouldn’t be.

Psychics
Psionics are harnessing their inner energy and using it to bend reality to their will.  This is similar to the Eastern idea of Chi (or Qi), life energy.  The psychic develops the ability to both harness this inner energy (I.S.P.) and to build this reserve making greater amounts of energy available upon demand.
How this changes the game:
This doesn’t change much.  Psionics continue to operate virtually the same, using and building their I.S.P. reserves.  One change you could implement is merging the concept of I.S.P. and Chi (see the section pertaining to this, below) 
Psionic powers are somewhat like magical spells.  They are learned techniques in bending reality.  Because of this, they can not only develop psionic powers, but can also develop spells as psionic powers.  Basically, instead of taking a psionic power, they can choose a spell instead.  The spell functions exactly as it does for a mage, except it is psionic in nature (not affected by anti-magic effects).  Any spell of 4th level or less can be taken in place of a minor power, 5th level or higher are Master/Super psionic powers.  The Psychic is limited in which powers he choose in the same way a mage is limited in the spells he can cast / learn (usually limited to a max spell level of I.Q./6 + class level, see below). Victims save against psionics as normal.
 
 
Mages
Mages, whether they are Hermetic (bookish) ones or they are more Shamantic, are essentially channelers; they channel external forces to alter reality.  This can also be seen as them bending external forces with their will.  This is similar to what Psychics do, but it is the external force doing the work and not the mage’s internal energy.
Hermetic mages channel the powers of nature.  This includes elemental forces like air, earth, fire, water, and primal forces like time, dimensional energy, and even life energy.  Shamans sometimes channel similar forces, but more often channel the powers of their ancestors, nature spirits, intelligences, or deities.  The main mechanical difference is Hermetic mages are exerting their will (M.E.) to make this happen and Shamans are convincing reality to do what the need or want by force of personality (M.A.).
How this changes the game:
Mages no longer have huge P.P.E. reserves.  Every living thing is a battery of P.P.E., but the amount is very small.  Some might have more than others (creatures of magic, supernatural beings, fairies, etc.), but most living things have less than 20 points of P.P.E.  Tapping into this reserve is painful for mortals.  Mages can tap into this reserve, but each point of P.P.E. used from the reserve causes one HP of damage.  Also, if a living thing’s P.P.E. drops to 0, they begin to die (even if they still have HP). (RULES ABOUT HP LOSS TO FOLLOW, ALSO, THIS SHOULD TIE INTO CHI RULES BELOW).

The amount of P.P.E. a mage can channel, per action, is limited by both the mage’s raw ability and his or her experience. 
Hermetic Mages P.P.E. per action: M.E. / 6 + character level
Shamantic Mages P.P.E. per action: M.A. / 6 + character level
Example: a 3rd level mage with a 12 M.E. can channel 5 P.P.E. per action.

Also, mages can burn as much HP as desired to channel more P.P.E. in one action.  Also, P.P.E. can be channeled over several actions to allow for the casting of higher level spells.  However, there is a limit to how long a character can channel energy.  A mage can channel energy for a number of actions equal to P.E. + caster level.  After this the mage must begin rolling saves vs. Insanity to avoid losing concentration.  If concentration is lost, all the built-up P.P.E. fizzles back into nature.  Also, if the mage suffers damage, a save vs Insanity with a penalty equal to the damage taken is needed to maintain concentration.
The spell level a caster can learn and cast is equal to the caster’s I.Q. / 6 + caster level.  For instance: a second level caster with a 10 I.Q. can learn and cast up to 3rd level spells (round fractions down).

Global Considerations
This has many interesting applications.  First, a god might grant a boon to a priest allowing him greater channeling (ie greater than M.A. / 6 + caster level).  Also, this would allow for Hedge Witches or apprentices to learn spell casting by learning the Principles of Magic skill but being limited to a P.P.E. channeling of only M.E. / 6 and a max spell level of their I.Q. / 6 (ie they wouldn’t have a “caster level” and would be relying simply on raw talent).
Lastly, you could adjust the divisors to fit your campaign.  For a low magic setting, you may wish to divide by 10 or more (real low channeling and low spell level limit).  Or, in a setting like RIFTS, you may wish to lower the divisor to allow for greater channeling and a higher spell level limit.  Lastly, you could have differing divisors for channeling and spell level limit.

Chi, I.S.P., and P.P.E
Chi, I.S.P., and P.P.E. are all forms of “inner” energy harnessed and used by beings to do amazing things.  If you want, you can simply distil these into one form of energy.  This has already been explored in Rifts China and Rifts Japan (where P.P.E. was the equivalent of Chi).  If you do this, simply give the character one reserve of energy and call it either I.S.P., P.P.E., or Chi depending on what sounds better to you.  This opens interesting possibilities like using Dragon Chi to quickly restore I.S.P. reserves, channeling P.P.E. into one’s body to increase P.S., P.E., etc with Body Chi, or even healing people using Chi Healing.  The melding of Martial Arts, Magic, and Psionics is easy and should enhance any game that includes these concepts, but if you don’t like the idea simply ignore it.  The ideas in this article work with or without this
 
So, why the change?  I want Psionics and Magic to me more distinct than they are now, mechanically.  They have different flavors, but they are very similar mechanically.  Also, the Mystic debate has always bugged me.  It's always touted in several games that magic and psionics shalt not be mixed, but then you have Mystics.  With these new rules, psionics and magic are truly separate.  One could be psionic and then learn to channel magic.  The mechanics are completely different and don't rely on the building-up of two types of energy.