Warlock with more elements

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Warlock with more elements

Unread post by barna10 »

I saw an old post about a Warlock having more than 2 elements. It used as a reference the Mad Golem from Island at the edge of the World.

I like the idea. I think it should be possible.

One of the ideas thrown about in the other post was further increasing the attribute requirements (I.Q. 6, M.E. 10 for one element, I.Q. 12, M.E. 14 for two RAW). This would mean I.Q. 18, M.E. 18 for three; and I.Q. 24, M.E. 22 for all four.

I would also increase the XP requirements for each added element (use Techno-Wizard XP table for 3 elements, Gypsy Wizard Thief table for all 4).

What do you think so far? And yes, this is for supers/high-powered campaigns.
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Re: Warlock with more elements

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Re: Warlock with more elements

Unread post by eliakon »

barna10 wrote:I saw an old post about a Warlock having more than 2 elements. It used as a reference the Mad Golem from Island at the edge of the World.

I like the idea. I think it should be possible.

One of the ideas thrown about in the other post was further increasing the attribute requirements (I.Q. 6, M.E. 10 for one element, I.Q. 12, M.E. 14 for two RAW). This would mean I.Q. 18, M.E. 18 for three; and I.Q. 24, M.E. 22 for all four.

I would also increase the XP requirements for each added element (use Techno-Wizard XP table for 3 elements, Gypsy Wizard Thief table for all 4).

What do you think so far? And yes, this is for supers/high-powered campaigns.

Just as a note here....
The Mad Warlock in question is a multi class 10/10/10/10 Earth/Air/Fire/Water warlock and not some sort of quadra-lock.

The main issue is spells
1 element you get 3 spells
2 elements you get 2 spells
so....
3 elements you get 1 spell and 4 elements you get 0 spells?
Because if you get 1 spell per element now you are back to increasing the spell selection not decreasing it. Which should increase the XP cost even more.
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Re: Warlock with more elements

Unread post by barna10 »

eliakon wrote:Just as a note here....
The Mad Warlock in question is a multi class 10/10/10/10 Earth/Air/Fire/Water warlock and not some sort of quadra-lock.

The main issue is spells
1 element you get 3 spells
2 elements you get 2 spells
so....
3 elements you get 1 spell and 4 elements you get 0 spells?
Because if you get 1 spell per element now you are back to increasing the spell selection not decreasing it. Which should increase the XP cost even more.


But 4 spells a level isn't unheard of(Chaos Wizards, Old Believer)
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Re: Warlock with more elements

Unread post by barna10 »

Mark Hall wrote:Only the Avatar can master all four elements.


Who is this Avatar?
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Re: Warlock with more elements

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barna10 wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:Only the Avatar can master all four elements.


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Re: Warlock with more elements

Unread post by Library Ogre »

Glistam wrote:
barna10 wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:Only the Avatar can master all four elements.


Who is this Avatar?

Doesn't matter. When the world needed him most, he vanished.


But I believe he can save the world.
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Re: Warlock with more elements

Unread post by eliakon »

barna10 wrote:
eliakon wrote:Just as a note here....
The Mad Warlock in question is a multi class 10/10/10/10 Earth/Air/Fire/Water warlock and not some sort of quadra-lock.

The main issue is spells
1 element you get 3 spells
2 elements you get 2 spells
so....
3 elements you get 1 spell and 4 elements you get 0 spells?
Because if you get 1 spell per element now you are back to increasing the spell selection not decreasing it. Which should increase the XP cost even more.


But 4 spells a level isn't unheard of(Chaos Wizards, Old Believer)


Right but my point was that the base warlock only gets 3, the dual warlock gets less spells to represent their lack of focus.....
Which is negated if they end up with more spells than the actual specialist.

I guess I would go with 2 spells total....and just make them pick.
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

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Re: Warlock with more elements

Unread post by barna10 »

Mark Hall wrote:
Glistam wrote:
barna10 wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:Only the Avatar can master all four elements.


Who is this Avatar?

Doesn't matter. When the world needed him most, he vanished.


But I believe he can save the world.


Lol, sry, did I miss the joke, like completely...
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Re: Warlock with more elements

Unread post by barna10 »

eliakon wrote:
barna10 wrote:
eliakon wrote:Just as a note here....
The Mad Warlock in question is a multi class 10/10/10/10 Earth/Air/Fire/Water warlock and not some sort of quadra-lock.

The main issue is spells
1 element you get 3 spells
2 elements you get 2 spells
so....
3 elements you get 1 spell and 4 elements you get 0 spells?
Because if you get 1 spell per element now you are back to increasing the spell selection not decreasing it. Which should increase the XP cost even more.


But 4 spells a level isn't unheard of(Chaos Wizards, Old Believer)


Right but my point was that the base warlock only gets 3, the dual warlock gets less spells to represent their lack of focus.....
Which is negated if they end up with more spells than the actual specialist.

I guess I would go with 2 spells total....and just make them pick.


Sry, I saw the point earlier but realize I failed to comment on it. I would probably still allow one spell per element, and I 'd probably up the XP to 2,500 / 3,000 at first level...but not sure about that. That's puts them equal with Demi-God / Godling and they're not THAT powerful.
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Re: Warlock with more elements

Unread post by eliakon »

barna10 wrote:
eliakon wrote:
barna10 wrote:
eliakon wrote:Just as a note here....
The Mad Warlock in question is a multi class 10/10/10/10 Earth/Air/Fire/Water warlock and not some sort of quadra-lock.

The main issue is spells
1 element you get 3 spells
2 elements you get 2 spells
so....
3 elements you get 1 spell and 4 elements you get 0 spells?
Because if you get 1 spell per element now you are back to increasing the spell selection not decreasing it. Which should increase the XP cost even more.


But 4 spells a level isn't unheard of(Chaos Wizards, Old Believer)


Right but my point was that the base warlock only gets 3, the dual warlock gets less spells to represent their lack of focus.....
Which is negated if they end up with more spells than the actual specialist.

I guess I would go with 2 spells total....and just make them pick.


Sry, I saw the point earlier but realize I failed to comment on it. I would probably still allow one spell per element, and I 'd probably up the XP to 2,500 / 3,000 at first level...but not sure about that. That's puts them equal with Demi-God / Godling and they're not THAT powerful.

Its not actually to bad.
Demi-god is kind of close....take one OCC and smoosh on bits of another.
The ability to summon elementals from a wide range of elements is a pretty neat perk....
I could get behind using the DG table for a trilock/quadlock sure.
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Re: Warlock with more elements

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barna10 wrote:I saw an old post about a Warlock having more than 2 elements. It used as a reference the Mad Golem from Island at the edge of the World.

I like the idea. I think it should be possible.

…..snip

If you remember that the elements are 'in opposition' to each other in pairs. (water vs fire and earth vs air) You come up with "No" the maximum number of elements a warlock can have is two.
Yes, KS did a poor job writing the warlock class by leaving this bit out of the class text. However, he did remember it for the Fusionist class.
Yes, this makes trouble for those people who have not actually learned anything about the classical elements outside of looking things up in the PB game books.

The only way I would let any char have three or all four elements would be if they were a Deity or a godling.

Yes, to those that close their eyes to that the warlocks get their powers from the elementals, the rules seam to allow the changing of the char's class from warlock to warlock to get access to the other two elements.
May you be blessed with the ability to change course when you are off the mark.
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Re: Warlock with more elements

Unread post by eliakon »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
barna10 wrote:I saw an old post about a Warlock having more than 2 elements. It used as a reference the Mad Golem from Island at the edge of the World.

I like the idea. I think it should be possible.

…..snip

If you remember that the elements are 'in opposition' to each other in pairs. (water vs fire and earth vs air) You come up with "No" the maximum number of elements a warlock can have is two.
Yes, KS did a poor job writing the warlock class by leaving this bit out of the class text. However, he did remember it for the Fusionist class.
Yes, this makes trouble for those people who have not actually learned anything about the classical elements outside of looking things up in the PB game books.

The only way I would let any char have three or all four elements would be if they were a Deity or a godling.

Yes, to those that close their eyes to that the warlocks get their powers from the elementals, the rules seam to allow the changing of the char's class from warlock to warlock to get access to the other two elements.

This entire statement is pure house rules.....
Canon has ruled that you can have any two elements.
Since there is no 'opposite elements' for warlocks in canon there is no 'prohibited element' (other than in house rules)

The flavor of a fusionist is fine and all....but it doesn't change the rules. And since the rules say you can pick any two elements, and since there are canon Warlocks with 'opposed' elements. Any claims that it is prohibited is going to need an explicit statement that this has been changed.

(I would also point out that the concept of 'opposed' elements is not 'classical' and pretty much is a construct of modern fantasy gaming like D&D and so really has no evidentiary status in trying to 'prove' that they should be done a certain way...and in fact would support the view that they are NOT opposed since that is the true historical 'classical' model)
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

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Re: Warlock with more elements

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Re: Warlock with more elements

Unread post by barna10 »

eliakon wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
barna10 wrote:I saw an old post about a Warlock having more than 2 elements. It used as a reference the Mad Golem from Island at the edge of the World.

I like the idea. I think it should be possible.

…..snip

If you remember that the elements are 'in opposition' to each other in pairs. (water vs fire and earth vs air) You come up with "No" the maximum number of elements a warlock can have is two.
Yes, KS did a poor job writing the warlock class by leaving this bit out of the class text. However, he did remember it for the Fusionist class.
Yes, this makes trouble for those people who have not actually learned anything about the classical elements outside of looking things up in the PB game books.

The only way I would let any char have three or all four elements would be if they were a Deity or a godling.

Yes, to those that close their eyes to that the warlocks get their powers from the elementals, the rules seam to allow the changing of the char's class from warlock to warlock to get access to the other two elements.

This entire statement is pure house rules.....
Canon has ruled that you can have any two elements.
Since there is no 'opposite elements' for warlocks in canon there is no 'prohibited element' (other than in house rules)

The flavor of a fusionist is fine and all....but it doesn't change the rules. And since the rules say you can pick any two elements, and since there are canon Warlocks with 'opposed' elements. Any claims that it is prohibited is going to need an explicit statement that this has been changed.

(I would also point out that the concept of 'opposed' elements is not 'classical' and pretty much is a construct of modern fantasy gaming like D&D and so really has no evidentiary status in trying to 'prove' that they should be done a certain way...and in fact would support the view that they are NOT opposed since that is the true historical 'classical' model)


Well said Eliakon. however, historically, alchemists and others did believe in the opposition of the elements and would often prescribe treatments from an ailments opposite element to cure it (cold for a fever, fresh air for snot, etc.).

Now, beyond that, that's where the historical reference stops. There is ZERO historical reference for some sort of intelligence behind the elements, people worshiping elements, elemental lords (unless it is a god like Zeus, Nut, etc.), or anything like that. Trying to claim the Palladium Warlock is anything but a creation of fiction is ludicrous. That being said, there's nothing wrong with creating something like this. I admire KS's imagination, but I don't always agree with it. The Warlock is one I don't agree with. That being said, I think it's time to rewrite it for my games.
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Re: Warlock with more elements

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

eliakon wrote:snip...

(I would also point out that the concept of 'opposed' elements is not 'classical' and pretty much is a construct of modern fantasy gaming like D&D and so really has no evidentiary status in trying to 'prove' that they should be done a certain way...and in fact would support the view that they are NOT opposed since that is the true historical 'classical' model)

And the PB system grew out of KS's house rules for the D&D system.

Yes, I said that the Warlocks were written without the opposing elemental limitation.

Yes, that elemental opposition was written into the Fusionist does write it into the canon. Though how that opposition effects warlocks was not explicitly written into the text.
May you be blessed with the ability to change course when you are off the mark.
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Re: Warlock with more elements

Unread post by eliakon »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
eliakon wrote:snip...

(I would also point out that the concept of 'opposed' elements is not 'classical' and pretty much is a construct of modern fantasy gaming like D&D and so really has no evidentiary status in trying to 'prove' that they should be done a certain way...and in fact would support the view that they are NOT opposed since that is the true historical 'classical' model)

And the PB system grew out of KS's house rules for the D&D system.

Yes, I said that the Warlocks were written without the opposing elemental limitation.

Yes, that elemental opposition was written into the Fusionist does write it into the canon. Though how that opposition effects warlocks was not explicitly written into the text.

okay so....
1) it doesn't matter where you have 'read' about elementals, if its not palladium it doesn't matter. So there is nothing for someone who has
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Yes, this makes trouble for those people who have not actually learned anything about the classical elements outside of looking things up in the PB game books.
to have trouble with. The entire system is purely made up. Nothing to look up else where

2) the oppositional level of the fusionist does not mean that no one else can do it. Just that they can use fire and water at the same time. in the old D&D world....steam. Unless you have some sort of evidence of from someplace else of course.
ALSO, the very notion that there IS opposition is brand new. That means that
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Yes, KS did a poor job writing the warlock class by leaving this bit out of the class text. However, he did remember it for the Fusionist class.

Is utterly false.....he didn't 'leave' anything out. There wasn't anything to put in. Claiming that he did 'poor writing' is an insult of the highest order as it implies that your personal head canon is superior to his actual writing....


3) there is no prohibition on having two 'oppositional' schools. period. Anything else is a house rule. So your personal house rule that If your life sign is fire you can not also have water (which is proved false by canon F/W warlocks) is just that. A house rule. As such it really has no business being used to try and weigh a discussion about anything other than....well your house rules. How do you put it? Canon first, and labeled house rules second? These claims are about as house rule as it gets....

And lastly....
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Yes, to those that close their eyes to that the warlocks get their powers from the elementals, the rules seam to allow the changing of the char's class from warlock to warlock to get access to the other two elements.

MULTIPLE examples of this exist in canon. Moreover since the Warlock is not one of the classes that is explicitly banned from class changing...they can. Your personal house rule against it goes against canon.
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Re: Warlock with more elements

Unread post by barna10 »

eliakon wrote:And lastly....
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Yes, to those that close their eyes to that the warlocks get their powers from the elementals, the rules seam to allow the changing of the char's class from warlock to warlock to get access to the other two elements.

MULTIPLE examples of this exist in canon. Moreover since the Warlock is not one of the classes that is explicitly banned from class changing...they can. Your personal house rule against it goes against canon.


Especially since the example I noted switched his class 2 times to get all 4 elements...by canon. Also, it's listed in flavor text that the elements don't really give a crap what you do with their magic, they are neutral. They don't seem to hate each other like Deevils and Demons, so why would they care if you start laying-down with elementals from another element?

If you want to make an argument that it is too powerful, do it (a bad argument to make, really), but trying to say this goes against some sort of megaversal metaphysical rules needs to be supported by something besides opinion and inferences.

Lastly, linking to elementals is not the ONLY way to get elemental spells. Elemental Shamans link to elemental spirits, not elementals. This implies there could be other sources of elemental magic, maybe gods, entities, or even tapping into the elemental forces themselves. Maybe it's all one big con job by the elementals telling people they are the only way to get the spells/power?
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Re: Warlock with more elements

Unread post by eliakon »

barna10 wrote:
eliakon wrote:And lastly....
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Yes, to those that close their eyes to that the warlocks get their powers from the elementals, the rules seam to allow the changing of the char's class from warlock to warlock to get access to the other two elements.

MULTIPLE examples of this exist in canon. Moreover since the Warlock is not one of the classes that is explicitly banned from class changing...they can. Your personal house rule against it goes against canon.


Especially since the example I noted switched his class 2 times to get all 4 elements...by canon. Also, it's listed in flavor text that the elements don't really give a crap what you do with their magic, they are neutral. They don't seem to hate each other like Deevils and Demons, so why would they care if you start laying-down with elementals from another element?

If you want to make an argument that it is too powerful, do it (a bad argument to make, really), but trying to say this goes against some sort of megaversal metaphysical rules needs to be supported by something besides opinion and inferences.

Lastly, linking to elementals is not the ONLY way to get elemental spells. Elemental Shamans link to elemental spirits, not elementals. This implies there could be other sources of elemental magic, maybe gods, entities, or even tapping into the elemental forces themselves. Maybe it's all one big con job by the elementals telling people they are the only way to get the spells/power?

The Elemental Spirits that the Shamans link to may be "elemental beings" of a sort as well.
They appear to have the same sort of link to the Elemental Plains and with True Elemental forces.
THAT said, though it does demonstrate that there are ways to make an elemental link besides the link of the Warlock. Its just that the Warlock link is the easiest and most common.
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Re: Warlock with more elements

Unread post by barna10 »

eliakon wrote:The Elemental Spirits that the Shamans link to may be "elemental beings" of a sort as well.
They appear to have the same sort of link to the Elemental Plains and with True Elemental forces.
THAT said, though it does demonstrate that there are ways to make an elemental link besides the link of the Warlock. Its just that the Warlock link is the easiest and most common.


Absolutely. I'd like to see priests of Vulcan with Fire and Earth spells, or Poseidon with Water and Earth (Earth because he is also credited with Earthquakes, maybe just spells that cause tremors...), or even an ancient evil like Uranus that grants all elements but only to Diabolical characters. Tons of possibilities. Elementals are so boring...
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Re: Warlock with more elements

Unread post by Library Ogre »

The only place I see elemental opposition is in the Elemental Fusionist class... designed for a video game that died quietly a decade ago. There's occasional bits (such as fire elementals being vulnerable to water), but I'd prefer a more paper-rock-scissors approach to pure opposition... like, Water extinguishes Fire consumes Air erodes Earth displaces Water.
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Re: Warlock with more elements

Unread post by barna10 »

Mark Hall wrote:The only place I see elemental opposition is in the Elemental Fusionist class... designed for a video game that died quietly a decade ago. There's occasional bits (such as fire elementals being vulnerable to water), but I'd prefer a more paper-rock-scissors approach to pure opposition... like, Water extinguishes Fire consumes Air erodes Earth displaces Water.


This is actually the approach taken in D&D and more historically accurate (misquoted by me earlier when I talked about opposites). It's really a wheel. If this approach were embraced, ONLY opposites should be chosen. However, there are some things (like humans) that incorporate all 4 of the elements.
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Re: Warlock with more elements

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

eliakon, if you are going to expand on your posts then edit the post you are expanding on. Making a whole other post to insult someone by taking a 2nd swing to back hand them is not needed.
-------
There are several examples of NPCs breaking the rules governing how player characters are made. (The NPC from century station that can use both of its APS powers at the same time comes to mind.) Having just one break those rules does not break the rules for PC had creation.

And there is the IQ limit on warlocks on how many elements they can be bonded to.
---
eli: instead of just making a comment about the "MULTIPLE examples of this exist in canon." then cite a few of them instead of just standing up bold face and saying something is so.

-------
Mark are you saying that the Ele. Fusionist class is based off a class that was in the N-Gage rifts game?
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Re: Warlock with more elements

Unread post by barna10 »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:eliakon and barna, if you are going to expand on your posts then edit the post you are expanding on. Making a whole other post to insult someone by taking a 2nd swing to back hand them is not needed.


Er..When and where was this insulting done? I'm sorry if you feel insulted by anything I wrote, but no insult was intended, and reading back I still don't see any insults. I did disagree with you and criticize your opinion, but I hardly consider that an insult. Please point out where you believe you were insulted and I'll refrain from insulting you in the future.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Mark are you saying that the Ele. Fusionist class is based off a class that was in the N-Gage rifts game?

Yes, that is what he is saying, and what is stated in RUE on page 100.
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Re: Warlock with more elements

Unread post by Library Ogre »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Mark are you saying that the Ele. Fusionist class is based off a class that was in the N-Gage rifts game?


Pretty explicitly, yeah, as Barna said.

To me, there is no opposition among the elements, and the wheel isn't even an expression of antipathy... it's not that water hates fire, or that fire hates water... it's just that their natures are physically incompatible, like the difference between carbon and silicon based life, or left and right handed DNA life.
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Re: Warlock with more elements

Unread post by eliakon »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:eliakon and barna, if you are going to expand on your posts then edit the post you are expanding on. Making a whole other post to insult someone by taking a 2nd swing to back hand them is not needed.

Then don't say it.
Seriously. I was replying to your new statement. The fact that the best way to do so was to demonstrate the falsity of the argument by going to the original statements being used to make the false claims isn't an insult. it is simply a fact that you said something.
Simply because you do not like being challenged doesn't make it an insult. Though going around randomly accusing people of insulting you is pretty harsh...
So....PM me please, exactly what I said, and how it was insulting.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:-------
There are several examples of NPCs breaking the rules governing how player characters are made. (The NPC from century station that can use both of its APS powers at the same time comes to mind.) Having just one break those rules does not break the rules for PC had creation.

Which is a false comparison though. That NPC is breaking an actual rule, and is openly acknowledged as doing so.
You are claiming that there is a rule, and that all NPCs who demonstrate that there isn't such a rule are really just breaking it.
You need to first have a rule exist. Please provide the book and page of the rule that says you can not have Fire and Water lifesigns or Earth and Air.


drewkitty ~..~ wrote:And there is the IQ limit on warlocks on how many elements they can be bonded to.

And your point is?.....I mean seriously this is why this thread was discussing what the stat thresholds would have to be for hypothetical 3 and 4 element warlocks

---
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:eli: instead of just making a comment about the "MULTIPLE examples of this exist in canon." then cite a few of them instead of just standing up bold face and saying something is so.

I would strongly request you reword that. "standing up bold face" is used to talk about people lying. I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume you are not accusing me of lying and just worded it badly (even though your .sig says otherwise)

On a related note, are you aware of what the words "cite your sources" mean?
I do not have to provide book and page footnoted citations of everything I say in every post. But if you want to ask for them feel free to do so. Are you asking for the examples of NPCs that are multi-class warlocks, or NPCs with "opposing" life signs, or both?
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Re: Warlock with more elements

Unread post by barna10 »

Hmmm...I have an idea for a Rifter Article. A change to Warlocks. Split them out into Elemental Priests and Elemental Mages. One connects to Elementals/Gods/Spirits, the other utilizes similar spells. the priests will have abilities granted by divine source (immunity to fire, etc.), mage will have greater range of spells.

Working on it starting tomorrow...
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Re: Warlock with more elements

Unread post by Library Ogre »

barna10 wrote:Hmmm...I have an idea for a Rifter Article. A change to Warlocks. Split them out into Elemental Priests and Elemental Mages. One connects to Elementals/Gods/Spirits, the other utilizes similar spells. the priests will have abilities granted by divine source (immunity to fire, etc.), mage will have greater range of spells.

Working on it starting tomorrow...


I actually wrote a similar class into the Mysteries of Magic manuscript. The Elementalist, IIRC, learned elemental magic without having explicit connection to one of the elemental forces. They could learn from any element, but Warlocks tended to hate them.
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Re: Warlock with more elements

Unread post by eliakon »

barna10 wrote:Hmmm...I have an idea for a Rifter Article. A change to Warlocks. Split them out into Elemental Priests and Elemental Mages. One connects to Elementals/Gods/Spirits, the other utilizes similar spells. the priests will have abilities granted by divine source (immunity to fire, etc.), mage will have greater range of spells.

Working on it starting tomorrow...

Library of Bletherad discusses converting Warlock spells into a format that other mages can use.
(it also mentions that this is very dangerous and that Warlocks tend to be....protective of their magic)
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Re: Warlock with more elements

Unread post by barna10 »

Mark Hall wrote:
barna10 wrote:Hmmm...I have an idea for a Rifter Article. A change to Warlocks. Split them out into Elemental Priests and Elemental Mages. One connects to Elementals/Gods/Spirits, the other utilizes similar spells. the priests will have abilities granted by divine source (immunity to fire, etc.), mage will have greater range of spells.

Working on it starting tomorrow...


I actually wrote a similar class into the Mysteries of Magic manuscript. The Elementalist, IIRC, learned elemental magic without having explicit connection to one of the elemental forces. They could learn from any element, but Warlocks tended to hate them.


I'd like to see that! Will it be in MOM 2? If not, could you present it in the Rifter (or share it online)?
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Re: Warlock with more elements

Unread post by barna10 »

eliakon wrote:
barna10 wrote:Hmmm...I have an idea for a Rifter Article. A change to Warlocks. Split them out into Elemental Priests and Elemental Mages. One connects to Elementals/Gods/Spirits, the other utilizes similar spells. the priests will have abilities granted by divine source (immunity to fire, etc.), mage will have greater range of spells.

Working on it starting tomorrow...

Library of Bletherad discusses converting Warlock spells into a format that other mages can use.
(it also mentions that this is very dangerous and that Warlocks tend to be....protective of their magic)


This seems like a good story element, seriously. I like built-in animosity as it can drive stories. that being said, a Warlock's ire really only matters in worlds where they're common. Imagine on of these mages in Nightbane, BTS, or Heroes Unlimited; not much opposition in a more modern setting.
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Re: Warlock with more elements

Unread post by eliakon »

barna10 wrote:
eliakon wrote:
barna10 wrote:Hmmm...I have an idea for a Rifter Article. A change to Warlocks. Split them out into Elemental Priests and Elemental Mages. One connects to Elementals/Gods/Spirits, the other utilizes similar spells. the priests will have abilities granted by divine source (immunity to fire, etc.), mage will have greater range of spells.

Working on it starting tomorrow...

Library of Bletherad discusses converting Warlock spells into a format that other mages can use.
(it also mentions that this is very dangerous and that Warlocks tend to be....protective of their magic)


This seems like a good story element, seriously. I like built-in animosity as it can drive stories. that being said, a Warlock's ire really only matters in worlds where they're common. Imagine on of these mages in Nightbane, BTS, or Heroes Unlimited; not much opposition in a more modern setting.

Of course the flip side is that if you don't have a lot of warlocks around to mimic....
....its going to take longer to copy their spells, and you won't have as wide a collection of them.

Which is also perfectly reasonable....you can get awesome utility with lots of options....but a very dangerous built in enemy....or no enemy but not as much omni-utility.

On thing to watch though is spell levels.
Warlock spells cap out at 8...so they get spell effects faster at lower levels.
If your 'elemental wizards' follow the same path with no modifications either they need to be limited to level 1-8 spells, or you run into the problem of someone trying to make a level 9 spell.....and then your having mortal wizards make spells that are better than what the Elemental Gods that they are copying can cast...
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Re: Warlock with more elements

Unread post by Nightmask »

eliakon wrote:
barna10 wrote:
eliakon wrote:
barna10 wrote:Hmmm...I have an idea for a Rifter Article. A change to Warlocks. Split them out into Elemental Priests and Elemental Mages. One connects to Elementals/Gods/Spirits, the other utilizes similar spells. the priests will have abilities granted by divine source (immunity to fire, etc.), mage will have greater range of spells.

Working on it starting tomorrow...

Library of Bletherad discusses converting Warlock spells into a format that other mages can use.
(it also mentions that this is very dangerous and that Warlocks tend to be....protective of their magic)


This seems like a good story element, seriously. I like built-in animosity as it can drive stories. that being said, a Warlock's ire really only matters in worlds where they're common. Imagine on of these mages in Nightbane, BTS, or Heroes Unlimited; not much opposition in a more modern setting.

Of course the flip side is that if you don't have a lot of warlocks around to mimic....
....its going to take longer to copy their spells, and you won't have as wide a collection of them.

Which is also perfectly reasonable....you can get awesome utility with lots of options....but a very dangerous built in enemy....or no enemy but not as much omni-utility.

On thing to watch though is spell levels.
Warlock spells cap out at 8...so they get spell effects faster at lower levels.
If your 'elemental wizards' follow the same path with no modifications either they need to be limited to level 1-8 spells, or you run into the problem of someone trying to make a level 9 spell.....and then your having mortal wizards make spells that are better than what the Elemental Gods that they are copying can cast...


Well if you were allowing that then you just have it as pretty obvious that there actually ARE higher level Warlock spells BUT the Elemental Gods only let them have access to those below that level for whatever inscrutable reason they operate under. Classic 'you thought the power we lent to them was the limit of what WE can do? What a foolish mortal you are' kind of reaction.
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Re: Warlock with more elements

Unread post by eliakon »

Nightmask wrote:
eliakon wrote:
barna10 wrote:
eliakon wrote:
barna10 wrote:Hmmm...I have an idea for a Rifter Article. A change to Warlocks. Split them out into Elemental Priests and Elemental Mages. One connects to Elementals/Gods/Spirits, the other utilizes similar spells. the priests will have abilities granted by divine source (immunity to fire, etc.), mage will have greater range of spells.

Working on it starting tomorrow...

Library of Bletherad discusses converting Warlock spells into a format that other mages can use.
(it also mentions that this is very dangerous and that Warlocks tend to be....protective of their magic)


This seems like a good story element, seriously. I like built-in animosity as it can drive stories. that being said, a Warlock's ire really only matters in worlds where they're common. Imagine on of these mages in Nightbane, BTS, or Heroes Unlimited; not much opposition in a more modern setting.

Of course the flip side is that if you don't have a lot of warlocks around to mimic....
....its going to take longer to copy their spells, and you won't have as wide a collection of them.

Which is also perfectly reasonable....you can get awesome utility with lots of options....but a very dangerous built in enemy....or no enemy but not as much omni-utility.

On thing to watch though is spell levels.
Warlock spells cap out at 8...so they get spell effects faster at lower levels.
If your 'elemental wizards' follow the same path with no modifications either they need to be limited to level 1-8 spells, or you run into the problem of someone trying to make a level 9 spell.....and then your having mortal wizards make spells that are better than what the Elemental Gods that they are copying can cast...


Well if you were allowing that then you just have it as pretty obvious that there actually ARE higher level Warlock spells BUT the Elemental Gods only let them have access to those below that level for whatever inscrutable reason they operate under. Classic 'you thought the power we lent to them was the limit of what WE can do? What a foolish mortal you are' kind of reaction.

And then you have the weird situation of a class mages with a weaker link....getting access to the high level stuff (possibly only at level 9 possibly at level 1 if they are real wizard types)....where as the actual warlocks/priests/greater elementals/etc can't do that.
Seems kind of wonky...
Though I guess you could also use the MMO model. Just keep going and say "Its the Elementalist Expansion. New spells for all"
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Re: Warlock with more elements

Unread post by barna10 »

eliakon wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
eliakon wrote:
barna10 wrote:
eliakon wrote:Library of Bletherad discusses converting Warlock spells into a format that other mages can use.
(it also mentions that this is very dangerous and that Warlocks tend to be....protective of their magic)


This seems like a good story element, seriously. I like built-in animosity as it can drive stories. that being said, a Warlock's ire really only matters in worlds where they're common. Imagine on of these mages in Nightbane, BTS, or Heroes Unlimited; not much opposition in a more modern setting.

Of course the flip side is that if you don't have a lot of warlocks around to mimic....
....its going to take longer to copy their spells, and you won't have as wide a collection of them.

Which is also perfectly reasonable....you can get awesome utility with lots of options....but a very dangerous built in enemy....or no enemy but not as much omni-utility.

On thing to watch though is spell levels.
Warlock spells cap out at 8...so they get spell effects faster at lower levels.
If your 'elemental wizards' follow the same path with no modifications either they need to be limited to level 1-8 spells, or you run into the problem of someone trying to make a level 9 spell.....and then your having mortal wizards make spells that are better than what the Elemental Gods that they are copying can cast...


Well if you were allowing that then you just have it as pretty obvious that there actually ARE higher level Warlock spells BUT the Elemental Gods only let them have access to those below that level for whatever inscrutable reason they operate under. Classic 'you thought the power we lent to them was the limit of what WE can do? What a foolish mortal you are' kind of reaction.

And then you have the weird situation of a class mages with a weaker link....getting access to the high level stuff (possibly only at level 9 possibly at level 1 if they are real wizard types)....where as the actual warlocks/priests/greater elementals/etc can't do that.
Seems kind of wonky...
Though I guess you could also use the MMO model. Just keep going and say "Its the Elementalist Expansion. New spells for all"


Some things aren't making sense in these arguments. First, so what if there are only eight levels? Normal mages can get spell level 15 spells at first level...What difference does it make what a spells level is for mages that learn spells of any level at any time?

Also, everyone is stuck on the "channeling" aspect of elemental magic. Is anyone concerned about this with Priests? Their magic also comes from a divine source and is the same magic cast by mages even though the mechanics might be slightly different. PPE cost is the same in that case, but maybe it should be lower for priests?

And what Nightmask said is the way it SHOULD be. It also highlights one of the most idiotic aspects of elemental magic: the fact that godly, supposedly indifferent entities, of their own free will sacrifice a part of themselves and channel their power through some meat bag on some rock somewhere. This really makes no sense. It's like a codependent relationship and apparently all of elemental kind needs therapy. Sure it's great for the meatbag caster, but the elementals get nothing out of the relationship. On top of it, fragments of them get called to battle and get abused on a regular basis. Makes no sense.

Lastly, there's nothing saying you need a Warlock around to mimic. Like in the Library, you could learn from others that have the spells or wrote them down.
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Re: Warlock with more elements

Unread post by Library Ogre »

barna10 wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:
barna10 wrote:Hmmm...I have an idea for a Rifter Article. A change to Warlocks. Split them out into Elemental Priests and Elemental Mages. One connects to Elementals/Gods/Spirits, the other utilizes similar spells. the priests will have abilities granted by divine source (immunity to fire, etc.), mage will have greater range of spells.

Working on it starting tomorrow...


I actually wrote a similar class into the Mysteries of Magic manuscript. The Elementalist, IIRC, learned elemental magic without having explicit connection to one of the elemental forces. They could learn from any element, but Warlocks tended to hate them.


I'd like to see that! Will it be in MOM 2? If not, could you present it in the Rifter (or share it online)?


That's entirely up to Kevin. I sent in the revised manuscript 10 years ago, now, and it became their property. I've heard nothing about them wanting to publish more of it. Given the option, I'd publish it myself, but that option is closed.
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Re: Warlock with more elements

Unread post by Glistam »

Mark Hall wrote:
barna10 wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:
barna10 wrote:Hmmm...I have an idea for a Rifter Article. A change to Warlocks. Split them out into Elemental Priests and Elemental Mages. One connects to Elementals/Gods/Spirits, the other utilizes similar spells. the priests will have abilities granted by divine source (immunity to fire, etc.), mage will have greater range of spells.

Working on it starting tomorrow...


I actually wrote a similar class into the Mysteries of Magic manuscript. The Elementalist, IIRC, learned elemental magic without having explicit connection to one of the elemental forces. They could learn from any element, but Warlocks tended to hate them.


I'd like to see that! Will it be in MOM 2? If not, could you present it in the Rifter (or share it online)?


That's entirely up to Kevin. I sent in the revised manuscript 10 years ago, now, and it became their property. I've heard nothing about them wanting to publish more of it. Given the option, I'd publish it myself, but that option is closed.

They selected a cover for it, but there's no indication for when it may be released, unfortunately.
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Re: Warlock with more elements

Unread post by barna10 »

Glistam wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:
barna10 wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:
barna10 wrote:Hmmm...I have an idea for a Rifter Article. A change to Warlocks. Split them out into Elemental Priests and Elemental Mages. One connects to Elementals/Gods/Spirits, the other utilizes similar spells. the priests will have abilities granted by divine source (immunity to fire, etc.), mage will have greater range of spells.

Working on it starting tomorrow...


I actually wrote a similar class into the Mysteries of Magic manuscript. The Elementalist, IIRC, learned elemental magic without having explicit connection to one of the elemental forces. They could learn from any element, but Warlocks tended to hate them.


I'd like to see that! Will it be in MOM 2? If not, could you present it in the Rifter (or share it online)?


That's entirely up to Kevin. I sent in the revised manuscript 10 years ago, now, and it became their property. I've heard nothing about them wanting to publish more of it. Given the option, I'd publish it myself, but that option is closed.

They selected a cover for it, but there's no indication for when it may be released, unfortunately.



Sounds like they're stifling free speech to me! Mark, I'll send you my ideas for a Rifter article when I get hem penned down.
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Re: Warlock with more elements

Unread post by Library Ogre »

Don't send me ideas for a Rifter article. I'm not going to write it, and I can't say anything substantive about what I've turned in.
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Re: Warlock with more elements

Unread post by barna10 »

Mark Hall wrote:Don't send me ideas for a Rifter article. I'm not going to write it, and I can't say anything substantive about what I've turned in.


I'm writing, just appreciate your view and thought you like to comment. That's all.
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Re: Warlock with more elements

Unread post by Axelmania »

Would you guys allow selecting the same element more than once?

Like for example, if I want all the 1st level earth spells, could I be a level 1 Earth Warlock to get 3, then an Earth/Fire to get a 4th, an Earth/Water to get a 5th, and Earth/Air to get a 6th, without reaching 2nd level in anything?

There are 8 in total though... could you just select 'Earth Warlock' twice to get 3 spells per level twice?

The downside is they would be limited to their individual experience levels but then you could choose ones for whom leveled stat don't matter much as your low-level OCC and ones for which they do matter more as your OCC you focus on leveling up.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:If you remember that the elements are 'in opposition' to each other in pairs. (water vs fire and earth vs air) You come up with "No" the maximum number of elements a warlock can have is two.
Yes, KS did a poor job writing the warlock class by leaving this bit out of the class text. However, he did remember it for the Fusionist class.

Fusionist limits don't apply to Warlocks. Their abilities work differently.
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Re: Warlock with more elements

Unread post by Fenrir_Lokison »

Another option, if you are playing in the Palladium Fantasy universe, is taking warlock twice. It may split one's O.C.C. advancement, but it is one of the bests ways to gain all elements without having to have a high XP species.
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Re: Warlock with more elements

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

eliakon wrote:snip...
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:And there is the IQ limit on warlocks on how many elements they can be bonded to.

And your point is?.....I mean seriously this is why this thread was discussing what the stat thresholds would have to be for hypothetical 3 and 4 element warlocks
…snip

Mentioning that there is a minimum IQ requirement to be bonded to more then one element that is stated within the warlock text. While people could make something up based on the data point given to somehow get around that limit, the limit is still there.

I also brought it up cause no-one else did.
--------
Then there is the other thing people are not saying. That changing a warlock's class to warlock is not changing the char's class. Saying that is what is being done is just wordplay used to justify getting around rules.
--------

As to you flippant thing you have said to me 'so what water put out fire'…..when you remember that there are actually intelagences that make up/are behind the elemental powers it is not just "oh water put out fire big deal'.
Elemental intelagences that are opposed to each other will not 'share a priest'. Sort of like how the priest class is divided between light and darkness and no priest of both light and dark.
As for the priest analogy…it is the closest one there is so 'Yes, there are 'n limitations to it…It's an analogy.'
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Re: Warlock with more elements

Unread post by barna10 »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
eliakon wrote:snip...
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:And there is the IQ limit on warlocks on how many elements they can be bonded to.

And your point is?.....I mean seriously this is why this thread was discussing what the stat thresholds would have to be for hypothetical 3 and 4 element warlocks
…snip

Mentioning that there is a minimum IQ requirement to be bonded to more then one element that is stated within the warlock text. While people could make something up based on the data point given to somehow get around that limit, the limit is still there.

I also brought it up cause no-one else did.


Hmm..no one except maybe the OP...in the original post for the thread...

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:--------
Then there is the other thing people are not saying. That changing a warlock's class to warlock is not changing the char's class. Saying that is what is being done is just wordplay used to justify getting around rules.


Except there are examples, in canon, of this happening (see the Mad Golem)

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:--------
As to you flippant thing you have said to me 'so what water put out fire'…..when you remember that there are actually intelagences that make up/are behind the elemental powers it is not just "oh water put out fire big deal'.
Elemental intelagences that are opposed to each other will not 'share a priest'. Sort of like how the priest class is divided between light and darkness and no priest of both light and dark.
As for the priest analogy…it is the closest one there is so 'Yes, there are 'n limitations to it…It's an analogy.'

This would be a good point if we were talking about Gods, but we're not. We're talking about agnostic, neutral beings. They don't fight amongst themselves and really don't give a crap about anything else. Their is no concept of "Elemental Intelligences that are opposed to each other" in Palladium and there are no references that I can find in any write-up about Elementals (feel free to offer any you can find). Now, if you prefer them this way, that's great. That being said, this is your interpretation and not RAW.

It is stated several times in each description of Warlocks that they are not priests, will not swear allegiance to a god or king, and are free spirits. Saying there is some sort of rule about the number of elemental forces they can align with is antithetical to everything else written about them. Also, we have at least one example of a Warlock that aligned with all 4 elements (and his stats are not high). Also, it's stated several times that Elemental Intelligences don't give a crap about intelligent life and social customs, that they are not antagonistic against each other, and that they have totally alien thought processes. Trying to ascribe some sort of social rules that would make sense for humans to them is to them (ie Loyalty, Allegiance, the concept of laying down with the enemy, monogamy, etc.) is great anthropomorphism, but it is baseless and against RAW.
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Re: Warlock with more elements

Unread post by eliakon »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
eliakon wrote:snip...
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:And there is the IQ limit on warlocks on how many elements they can be bonded to.

And your point is?.....I mean seriously this is why this thread was discussing what the stat thresholds would have to be for hypothetical 3 and 4 element warlocks
…snip

Mentioning that there is a minimum IQ requirement to be bonded to more then one element that is stated within the warlock text. While people could make something up based on the data point given to somehow get around that limit, the limit is still there.

I also brought it up cause no-one else did.

The very first post in this thread talked about it, and even discussed what the additional stat points needed for 3 and 4 elements would be.
It wasn't ignored, it was already covered.

--------
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Then there is the other thing people are not saying. That changing a warlock's class to warlock is not changing the char's class. Saying that is what is being done is just wordplay used to justify getting around rules.

HUH?
Ummmm changing a class is sort of the definition of changing a class.....
And we already have at least one example of someone doing just exactly this The Mad Golem (Isle at the Top of the World pg. 74) who is a 10th level Air/Water/Fire/Earth warlock...changed class 3 times from warlock to warlock to get more affinities and spells.

--------
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:As to you flippant thing you have said to me 'so what water put out fire'…..when you remember that there are actually intelagences that make up/are behind the elemental powers it is not just "oh water put out fire big deal'.
Elemental intelagences that are opposed to each other will not 'share a priest'. Sort of like how the priest class is divided between light and darkness and no priest of both light and dark.
As for the priest analogy…it is the closest one there is so 'Yes, there are 'n limitations to it…It's an analogy.'

Its a pretty poor one though since there are "priests of light" who serve evil gods and "priests of dark" who serve good ones...that whole pesky 'I worship the whole pantheon thing' which is explicitly allowed.
The problem with claiming that there is some rule that prevents "opposing life signs" is that we have people like Barbra (High Seas 1e pg 70 2nd ed pg 61) who is a level 7 Earth/ Air warlock. She isn't a special snowflake NPC that is breaking the rules either, since there isn't a rule for her to be breaking. She is simply a dual element warlock that wanted Earth and Air.
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Re: Warlock with more elements

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

Mark Hall wrote:Only the Avatar can master all four elements.

:) and yet cant figure out lightning, steel, swamp and sand.
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Re: Warlock with more elements

Unread post by Axelmania »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:a minimum IQ requirement to be bonded to more then one element that is stated within the warlock text

Page 108 of Palladium Fantasy has a few phrasings:
    under 1. Choosing an Elemental Force "tap into"
    under 2. Magic and Spell Casting "derives"
    under 3. Initial Spell Knowledge "bonded with one elemental force of choice" .. "two elemental forces is allowed"

All this seems in respect to just per the OCC though, not 'for the character forever'. Kind of like when they say Diabolists can't learn spells, you can still do it by switching to another OCC that can. A warlock can't have more than 2 elements unless he switches to another warlock.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Elemental intelagences that are opposed to each other will not 'share a priest'.

Source? I've never seen any indication that they would care, or any indication that they would dislike each other. If a fire warlock summons a major fire elemental and a water warlock summons a major water elemental, if they were as opposed as you imply, you'd expect them to start duking it out, which isn't the case.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Sort of like how the priest class is divided between light and darkness and no priest of both light and dark.


There is absolutely nothing stopping you from being both a Priest of Light and a Priest of Dark if you change OCCs. This could be done by worshipping different gods in the same pantheon with no conflict. You could be a Priest of Light for Rurga and a Priest of Darkness for Panath simultaneously if you were anarchist.

Zer0 Kay wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:Only the Avatar can master all four elements.

:) and yet cant figure out lightning, steel, swamp and sand.

or bloodbending
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Re: Warlock with more elements

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

The Mad Golum, why does this example does not Break the RAW….
…The writers can break the rules for their NPCs while not breaking the rules for players.
…one example of NPC rule breaking does not make a pattern that players can use to twist the RAW out of it's intended meaning.
….The Island at the Edge of the Word book is a 1st ed game book and thus stands even further outside the 2nd ed rules.

So using the example of the Mad Golem as to say I am being an idiot in stating the RAW is a bunch of hyperbole.

You are wrong in this.
And trying to make the mad golem stand up on it's own is not a viable option. Is there any other example of a warlock NPCs with more then two elements? Is there any examples of Warlock NPCs with opposing elemental pairs as their elemental powers? Please list where they can be found to support our claim. Just saying 'they are there' is not enough.
-------
Priests…..PoL…is more then a class…it is a faith. To change from a PoL to a PoD it does not take a class change. However, the PoL would loose all their granted powers from the god(s) of light when he switched sides/change allegiances to be a PoD. So an assertion that a char can be both a PoL and a PoD at the same time is a bunch of bull. This is basic theology people. A person can not serve two diametrically opposed masters.
This is not something that can just be argued away because you don't like the fact.

To give an example: If James Bond defected to Russia he would still be a spy. He would just be working for the other side.
••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
There is the question at the core of the Warlock class: How do they get their powers?
• Are they granted to them by the elemental Intels?
• Do the Warlocks somehow Take the powers from the elemental intels?
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Re: Warlock with more elements

Unread post by eliakon »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:The Mad Golum, why does this example does not Break the RAW….
…The writers can break the rules for their NPCs while not breaking the rules for players.
…one example of NPC rule breaking does not make a pattern that players can use to twist the RAW out of it's intended meaning.
….The Island at the Edge of the Word book is a 1st ed game book and thus stands even further outside the 2nd ed rules.

So using the example of the Mad Golem as to say I am being an idiot in stating the RAW is a bunch of hyperbole.

The problem is your going backwards.
Your making a claim that there is a rule that these NPCs are an exception to.
The problem is that there is no such rule actually stated in any book. Your making up the rule from whole cloth and then using the examples that violate your made up rule as proof that there are exceptions.
There is literally nothing in any book anywhere that says that Warlocks can not change class. Nothing. I challenge you to provide a book/page citation that says that Warlocks can not change class.
There is literally nothing in any book anywhere that says that warlocks can NOT choose any two elements that they want.
People that do this are not exceptions to some rule....they are simply following the rules as written.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:You are wrong in this.
And trying to make the mad golem stand up on it's own is not a viable option. Is there any other example of a warlock NPCs with more then two elements? Is there any examples of Warlock NPCs with opposing elemental pairs as their elemental powers? Please list where they can be found to support our claim. Just saying 'they are there' is not enough.

The warlock Avaxa is a "Grand Warlock" and again he had the ability to summon all four kinds of elementals.
I am assuming here that you just want mortals and will ignore all the various gods who are multi-class with two or more warlock classes since the gods tend to be special snowflakes

I already listed one canon warlock with an opposing element as well. A warlock who was reprinted from first to second edition unchanged I might add. (Barbra (High Seas 1e pg 70 2nd ed pg 61) who is a level 7 Earth/ Air warlock.)

I have not combed every single book for every single warlock though, but I am fairly confidant that it would not be to hard to find more examples of warlocks changing classes or having 'opposed' elements.
The point as I have made multiple times is that there is no need to prove by example (though I have) that these are legal. You need to prove that it is illegal. The burden is on you to prove that the rules have changed to not allow this, since as written in the warlock class section and the class change section they clearly do.

<Edit>
Interestingly the Fury Iron Juggernaut is a construct that melds Earth and Air elemental forces in its construction. While it does so artificially, it is interesting to note that it is one 'being' that can cast from both Air and Earth.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:-------
Priests…..PoL…is more then a class…it is a faith. To change from a PoL to a PoD it does not take a class change. However, the PoL would loose all their granted powers from the god(s) of light when he switched sides/change allegiances to be a PoD. So an assertion that a char can be both a PoL and a PoD at the same time is a bunch of bull. This is basic theology people. A person can not serve two diametrically opposed masters.
This is not something that can just be argued away because you don't like the fact.

I never did and its rather a strawman to argue I did.
What I pointed out is that it is explicitly false to try and claim that being a PoL or PoD is purely a matter of the alignment of your god.
Which is why trying to use them to 'prove' anything about warlocks is doomed to failure. Not only is it a bad analogy to start with, it is itself false.


drewkitty ~..~ wrote:To give an example: If James Bond defected to Russia he would still be a spy. He would just be working for the other side.

And this is still a total strawman

••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:There is the question at the core of the Warlock class: How do they get their powers?
• Are they granted to them by the elemental Intels?
• Do the Warlocks somehow Take the powers from the elemental intels?

Unfortunately the exact details of how this works is Canon Doubt and Uncertainty (CDaU)
Last edited by eliakon on Mon Apr 04, 2016 4:18 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Warlock with more elements

Unread post by Axelmania »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:The Mad Golum, why does this example does not Break the RAW….
…The writers can break the rules for their NPCs while not breaking the rules for players.
…one example of NPC rule breaking does not make a pattern that players can use to twist the RAW out of it's intended meaning.
….The Island at the Edge of the Word book is a 1st ed game book and thus stands even further outside the 2nd ed rules.

That would only be so if something relevant changed between 1st and 2nd for warlocks, which it hasn't.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Is there any other example of a warlock NPCs with more then two elements?

Several deities. Multi-classed NPCs are rare enough to begin with though, the rarity is not suggestive.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Is there any examples of Warlock NPCs with opposing elemental pairs as their elemental powers? Please list where they can be found to support our claim. Just saying 'they are there' is not enough.

Adventures on the High Seas 2nd edition page 61 the Warlock's Guild House (25) is run by Barbara, an "earth an air" warlock, so I think this serves as evidence that the author is fine with mixing supposed "opposite" elements.

Edit: just noticed Eliakon already pointed her out. Wasn't there also a fire/water Warlock NPC in some other book?

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Priests…..PoL…is more then a class…it is a faith. To change from a PoL to a PoD it does not take a class change. However, the PoL would loose all their granted powers from the god(s) of light when he switched sides/change allegiances to be a PoD.

Source? Not all religions ban cross-worship, and I was talking about worshipping other gods in the same pantheon, which priests can do anyway. If you can be a "Priest of Light for Ra and Isis" you can be a "Priest of Light for Ippotomi" and a "Priest of Darkness for Pith" since they can be worshipped in sync in deference to the entire pantheon.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:So an assertion that a char can be both a PoL and a PoD at the same time is a bunch of bull. This is basic theology people. A person can not serve two diametrically opposed masters.

Yes they can, deities of different alignments are not inherently opposed, sometimes they work together. Dragonwright is a good example of that, you have an evil dragon and a good dragon.
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