Permanently mimic or steal spells?

[barna10]

Can anyone think of a way, by canon, for an individual to permanently steal, mimic, or learn spells (or skills) via magical, psionic, or super-powered means?

Necromancers can wear a skull to get magic spells, but I want something more.

Can you think of anything from official material?

[Library Ogre]

The Cauldron spell for Wizards in PFRPG lets you permanently learn spells.

[Library Ogre]

I've suggested the option of using Mind Bond to acquire spell knowledge, then Insert Memory (on yourself or another) to learn a spell permanently. I wouldn't let you learn spellcasting, per se, that way, but a relatively discrete bundle of knowledge would work, IMC.

[barna10]

I've suggested the option of using Mind Bond to acquire spell knowledge, then Insert Memory (on yourself or another) to learn a spell permanently. I wouldn't let you learn spellcasting, per se, that way, but a relatively discrete bundle of knowledge would work, IMC.

I like it. This works for a nefarious Mystic. And since YOU said it, it's as good as canon in my book!

[drewkitty ~..~]

I've suggested the option of using Mind Bond to acquire spell knowledge, then Insert Memory (on yourself or another) to learn a spell permanently. I wouldn't let you learn spell casting, per se, that way, but a relatively discrete bundle of knowledge would work, IMC.

I like it. This works for a nefarious Mystic. And since YOU said it, it's as good as canon in my book!

And the problem (as in "why it wouldn't work") is that Mind Bond and Insert memory are super psionic powers that are typically only available to master psionics. And said Master Psi's have at most 8 PPE. That is not enough to cast Armor of Ithan.
Then there is the most important bit of "Why it won't work", that just copying the knowledge of a mages spells does not give the ability to cast said spells.

Psi Mystics.....except for those in RUE they do not have access to super psionics. Even those in RUE don't get any SP powers till L4 and L8. However, all Mystics would have to overcome the barrier of that they don't really know, didn't learn how to make magic. They can only use what magic intuitively know how to make.

[barna10]

Psi Mystics.....except for those in RUE they do not have access to super psionics. Even those in RUE don't get any SP powers till L4 and L8. However, all Mystics would have to overcome the barrier of that they don't really know, didn't learn how to make magic. They can only use what magic intuitively know how to make.

A fair, by the book opinion. I don't share the same opinion though.

I think they'd be able gain knowledge of THAT spell since they bonded with the caster and learned how that caster cast it, that one spell. This wouldn't allow the Mystic to learn to cast any spell, just that one. To me it seems similar to how the Mystic would gain any spell.

[Library Ogre]

And the problem (as in "why it wouldn't work") is that Mind Bond and Insert memory are super psionic powers that are typically only available to master psionics. And said Master Psi's have at most 8 PPE. That is not enough to cast Armor of Ithan.
Then there is the most important bit of "Why it won't work", that just copying the knowledge of a mages spells does not give the ability to cast said spells.

Psi Mystics.....except for those in RUE they do not have access to super psionics. Even those in RUE don't get any SP powers till L4 and L8. However, all Mystics would have to overcome the barrier of that they don't really know, didn't learn how to make magic. They can only use what magic intuitively know how to make.

While it's being cast in terms of Mystics, consider, for a moment, Dragons and other major supernatural creatures. "Mind Bond... hmmm, those are interesting, I think I'll commit them to Insert Memory storage... and, let's wipe the poor saps mind completely... maybe put in a pleasant but fake memory to make things confused..."

[barna10]

While it's being cast in terms of Mystics, consider, for a moment, Dragons and other major supernatural creatures. "Mind Bond... hmmm, those are interesting, I think I'll commit them to Insert Memory storage... and, let's wipe the poor saps mind completely... maybe put in a pleasant but fake memory to make things confused..."

Wicked...

[eliakon]

Obsidian Spell Thief class is designed around just this.
The spell Heart of Darkness lets you ritually drain a piece of a mages soul taking some of their spell knowledge.
The Splugorth make the Psi-Interrogator device, that has the super psionic power of mind bond, but relays the learned knowledge to the user.
The Mechanoids have a Brain Pool that operates similar to Mind Bond/Insert Memory that could be used as well.

[Mouser13]

Used Mind bound and create scrolls and Beat Insurmountable Odds. To learn spells. Though it doesn't every say how long it takes to study a scroll to learn it.

The only other way to steal spells that not listed would be soul stealer NPC. Though that has some issues being evil and time line could maybe be a issue.



Also I another way would just have the person be your friend and trade. Love charm could work great for that it can last long enough for trading of some spells. And if truthfully love trust you then nothing stopping from letting his defense down and allow you to cast the spell on them again.

[drewkitty ~..~]

To learn Spells from studying texts are covered in PF:MoM1 and NB:TtGD.

Learning from scrolls is done by the mage reading the Spell Scroll aloud (casting the magic) while also sensing the magic being formed as it is being formed. The mage has a small % chance of learning the magic from observing the magic cast from the scroll.

[Axelmania]

I don't think a Psi-Interrogator's mind bond (simply giving you data on a view screen as to what the symbiote reads) would give you the same insights as experiencing the knowledge first-hand. It can work for basic stuff like written info (names, numbers) and could give you the WORDS for a spell, but maybe not the complex other stuff that goes along with spellcasting, like visualizing things on the fifth dimensional plane or what might be required.

[Mouser13]

I don't think a Psi-Interrogator's mind bond (simply giving you data on a view screen as to what the symbiote reads) would give you the same insights as experiencing the knowledge first-hand. It can work for basic stuff like written info (names, numbers) and could give you the WORDS for a spell, but maybe not the complex other stuff that goes along with spellcasting, like visualizing things on the fifth dimensional plane or what might be required.

Well that a question that closes to cannon we have is the old FAQ. So I know how people view that lacking any other it the most we have.

7. With mind bond could I learn magic spells or new psionic abilities? With mind bond could I learn Mystic Powers?
Answer: Yes to both.

[barna10]

I don't think a Psi-Interrogator's mind bond (simply giving you data on a view screen as to what the symbiote reads) would give you the same insights as experiencing the knowledge first-hand. It can work for basic stuff like written info (names, numbers) and could give you the WORDS for a spell, but maybe not the complex other stuff that goes along with spellcasting, like visualizing things on the fifth dimensional plane or what might be required.

Well that a question that closes to cannon we have is the old FAQ. So I know how people view that lacking any other it the most we have.

7. With mind bond could I learn magic spells or new psionic abilities? With mind bond could I learn Mystic Powers?
Answer: Yes to both.

Nice find

[drewkitty ~..~]

There are the spell research rules in both TtGD and MoM1, which let a char create new spells, figure out spells that are know to exist, and to create spells that replicate spells from specialty magics.

Both let the mage end up with a spell that who's effects look like spell they have encountered and are trying to replicate.

[Axelmania]

If you could learn psionic powers from a person you are Mind Bonded to, then you could learn Mind Bond yourself, and nothing could stop a massive wave of Mind Bond spreading across the world and everyone is suddenly a Vulcan...

Which is why, if you go by this FAQ, the only way I can make sense of it is that while you do learn a magic spell or psionic power, like any other knowledge you gain, it is lost after the duration of Mind Bond expires. So no permanently learning spells or psionics that way. The only info you could retain from this power would be stuff simple enough that you could write it down, like a true name, password, or other simple data.

Still pretty useful though. If you are a Mystic with Mind Bond, you could go and teach "Throwing Stones" to some random vagabond and then have him go throw MD stones at your enemies without exposing yourself to danger.

[barna10]

So, given that skills are described as taking hundreds of hours to learn (rules from HU, BTS, etc) and spells are said to take 2 days per level, it seems much easier to learn a spell than a skill. Given this, I see no reason to not allow the Mimic Skill, Steal Skill, or even the Bleed Skill psychic powers to be used on spells. Now, why not allow the psychic to then use Insert Memory to permanently imprint the spell into his or someone else's brain? Doesn't seem much different than using mind bond and insert memory to me.

[Axelmania]

The HU you cite for skills taking hundreds of hours also includes longer learning times for spells. The 2 days / level is specific to Rifts and Palladium Fantasy where the higher PPE probably helps you learn it quicker. Unless these faster times are mentioned in other settings, they do not apply there, and we should use the slower times (like 1-2 months per spell) listed in other books.

[eliakon]

The HU you cite for skills taking hundreds of hours also includes longer learning times for spells. The 2 days / level is specific to Rifts and Palladium Fantasy where the higher PPE probably helps you learn it quicker. Unless these faster times are mentioned in other settings, they do not apply there, and we should use the slower times (like 1-2 months per spell) listed in other books.

You would use the learning time for the game in question.
In Rifts you use the Rifts magic rules
In HU you use the HU magic rules
In PF you use the PF magic rules
And so on.
Simply consult the rule book for the game in question and see what the rules are.

[drewkitty ~..~]

In Rifts, the rule is two days per level of the spell to be taught a spell.

Inside of HU, There are three ways to learn spells outside of the 'level up spells'
❖Learning spells from 'the master' takes one to eight months of study. (1 for low level (1-4) spells, 1d4 for mid range spells and 2d4 months for high level (10+) spells)
❖Being taught "boons"/"granted" take 1d4 months, but the teacher is a SN of some sort.
❖ Studying ancient texts, books of magic, and scrolls (no less then 8 months).

Each of these involve spending All of their time studying.

----
Why can't psions just take the spell knowledge from a mage......"Because that is how the game mechanics are set up." is he simple answer.

The more complex ones are mainly speculations based off guessing why the mechanics would work in IRL and the concept of "Don't be a Munchkin".

[barna10]

In Rifts, the rule is two days per level of the spell to be taught a spell.

Inside of HU, There are three ways to learn spells outside of the 'level up spells'
❖Learning spells from 'the master' takes one to eight months of study. (1 for low level (1-4) spells, 1d4 for mid range spells and 2d4 months for high level (10+) spells)
❖Being taught "boons"/"granted" take 1d4 months, but the teacher is a SN of some sort.
❖ Studying anchent texts, books of magic, and scrolls (no less then 8 months).

Each of these involve spending All of their time studying.

----
Why can't psions just take the spell knowledge from a mage......"Because that is how the game mechanics are set up." is he simple answer.

The more complex ones are mainly speculations based off guessing why the mechanics would work in IRL and the concept of "Don't be a Munchkin".

These seem too prohibitive for an actual game, unless one wants to take their character out of action for several months while the rest of the characters keep having fun / advancing. I'll stick with the 2 days per level rule, regardless of the game.

[ShadowLogan]

Can anyone think of a way, by canon, for an individual to permanently steal, mimic, or learn spells (or skills) via magical, psionic, or super-powered means?

Necromancers can wear a skull to get magic spells, but I want something more.

Can you think of anything from official material?

How do you define "permanently"? Because there are options that result in Permanent Permanent, and those that are Permanent so long as X condition is met. In the second category you have:
-Harvester from Rifts Psycape can acquire "permanent" spells from the victims they take (limits though, and they can "release" it).
-You can also acquire it from a Pact, at least as long as the Pact is in effect IINM. I don't just mean a Witch's Pact, but also the Pacts a (Rifts) Shifter can make also include new spells IIRC

Theoretically a mage might be able to reverse engineer a spell/ritual that they observe being cast and learn it that way. Though I suspect it is just as demanding/tricky as a Scroll Conversion. That is essentially an option for PF Summoners and Diabolists IINM for their branches of magic. It might also explain how some mages "learn" or "figureout" a new spell at a new level of experience.

[drewkitty ~..~]

In Rifts, the rule is two days per level of the spell to be taught a spell.

Inside of HU, There are three ways to learn spells outside of the 'level up spells'
❖Learning spells from 'the master' takes one to eight months of study. (1 for low level (1-4) spells, 1d4 for mid range spells and 2d4 months for high level (10+) spells)
❖Being taught "boons"/"granted" take 1d4 months, but the teacher is a SN of some sort.
❖ Studying ancient texts, books of magic, and scrolls (no less then 8 months).

Each of these involve spending All of their time studying.

----
Why can't psions just take the spell knowledge from a mage......"Because that is how the game mechanics are set up." is he simple answer.

The more complex ones are mainly speculations based off guessing why the mechanics would work in IRL and the concept of "Don't be a Munchkin".

These seem too prohibitive for an actual game, unless one wants to take their character out of action for several months while the rest of the characters keep having fun / advancing. I'll stick with the 2 days per level rule, regardless of the game.

Which it is possibly meant to be time prohibitive. So the player does not have their character go off on their own in the middle of a game to "get a new spell". Thus saying..."do that in-between campaigns, not in the middle of one".

Some people find the 2 days per level time requirement to be too long.

[Axelmania]

Worth keeping in mind that in HU, the Mystic Study starts with the ability to do Astral Projection. Even the mere 5 minutes they get at first level, after spending 1 minute to find the Astral Plane, still gives them 4 minutes to spend up there. Since 1 minute = 1 week that means each time they use the ability (taking on average 10 minutes of preparation) they're basically getting a month of study for every 15 minutes (technically 9-21 depending on what you roll for required prep time) they sacrifice. This gets more efficient as they go up in levels and can maintain the astral projection for longer.

I would rule that since the 2days/level rule is specific to Rifts/PF that it would not apply on the Astral Plane, so you'd have to go by the 'months of study' rules when moving there to take advantage of the slower time flow.

The main consideration though is: would you be able to focus on studying in the Astral Plane? Unless you found a friendly place where you wouldn't be attacked, the Astral Plane can be a pretty dangerous place, so it might be hard to relax and focus on research there.

Probably a good strategy (and a good explanations for why there would be teacher/student relationships, or magical covens) is to have someone on 'guard duty' who looks out for astral predators while others study. This could go in shifts, and the more people who simultaneously Astral Project and visit the Astral Plane together, the fewer shifts you would have to take and the more you could get done.

A spell like Mystic Alarm would be very useful to use if you could find non-living objects in the astral plane to anchor them to which would be disturbed by someone sneaking up on you, like if it were a door or a window. Although a year (52 weeks) per level in the astral plane only ends up being 52 minutes per level in the real world, and I don't know how PPE regeneration works in the astral plane. Also very useful in the real world to protect your body if you lock yourself in a room. A spell like 'seal' could also be useful, although it only lasts 40% as long as astral projection so you'd need to cut your session short or have a higher-level mage cast it for you. Energy Field has a similar duration problem but could be useful in protecting multiple astral proectors' bodies during the minutes they are spending months studying a spell.

I guess a similar exploit could also be used to gain skills at a very rapid rate if you were a Mystic Study or a psychic with the Astral Projection Sensitive power.

In other games like Rifts, Astral Projection is a spell rather than an OCC ability, but that doesn't seem to be the case here, can't find it on the spell list so I don't think it would be open to a Mystic Bestowed or a Magic Weapon / Mystic Object.

[eliakon]

Worth keeping in mind that in HU, the Mystic Study starts with the ability to do Astral Projection. Even the mere 5 minutes they get at first level, after spending 1 minute to find the Astral Plane, still gives them 4 minutes to spend up there. Since 1 minute = 1 week that means each time they use the ability (taking on average 10 minutes of preparation) they're basically getting a month of study for every 15 minutes (technically 9-21 depending on what you roll for required prep time) they sacrifice. This gets more efficient as they go up in levels and can maintain the astral projection for longer.

I would rule that since the 2days/level rule is specific to Rifts/PF that it would not apply on the Astral Plane, so you'd have to go by the 'months of study' rules when moving there to take advantage of the slower time flow.

The main consideration though is: would you be able to focus on studying in the Astral Plane? Unless you found a friendly place where you wouldn't be attacked, the Astral Plane can be a pretty dangerous place, so it might be hard to relax and focus on research there.

Probably a good strategy (and a good explanations for why there would be teacher/student relationships, or magical covens) is to have someone on 'guard duty' who looks out for astral predators while others study. This could go in shifts, and the more people who simultaneously Astral Project and visit the Astral Plane together, the fewer shifts you would have to take and the more you could get done.

A spell like Mystic Alarm would be very useful to use if you could find non-living objects in the astral plane to anchor them to which would be disturbed by someone sneaking up on you, like if it were a door or a window. Although a year (52 weeks) per level in the astral plane only ends up being 52 minutes per level in the real world, and I don't know how PPE regeneration works in the astral plane. Also very useful in the real world to protect your body if you lock yourself in a room. A spell like 'seal' could also be useful, although it only lasts 40% as long as astral projection so you'd need to cut your session short or have a higher-level mage cast it for you. Energy Field has a similar duration problem but could be useful in protecting multiple astral proectors' bodies during the minutes they are spending months studying a spell.

I guess a similar exploit could also be used to gain skills at a very rapid rate if you were a Mystic Study or a psychic with the Astral Projection Sensitive power.

In other games like Rifts, Astral Projection is a spell rather than an OCC ability, but that doesn't seem to be the case here, can't find it on the spell list so I don't think it would be open to a Mystic Bestowed or a Magic Weapon / Mystic Object.

And how can you 'study'?
There are no spell books in the astral plane, they cant write notes, spell casting 'experiments' are problematic....
It doesn't say 'go meditate for months in a void' it says 'study' you cant do that this way.
This is not just some 'spend x time grinding and presto you get a power up' MMO thing. Its actual study or classes or research. All stuff that this power cant do.

[Axelmania]

Notes are not mandatory for studying. Nothing preventing magical experimentation in the astral plane.

The "translation" (option 4, spending 8 months per spell, self taught) does require studying physical scrolls/text which could not be done unless you had some friendly Astral Lord do "astral sensitive" on that stuff.

So this is basically just a strategy for options 2 and 3, when you are taught by your mentor or a supernatural being.

[eliakon]

Notes are not mandatory for studying.

I will beg to differ on that.....you can't 'study' if you don't have anything to 'study'

Nothing preventing magical experimentation in the astral plane.

Like I said its more difficult (and you don't have any equipment, just spells)

The "translation" (option 4, spending 8 months per spell, self taught) does require studying physical scrolls/text which could not be done unless you had some friendly Astral Lord do "astral sensitive" on that stuff.

If we bring in nightbane for the Astral Lords and their rules on the astral it opens the door to why your not using their spell creation rules....

So this is basically just a strategy for options 2 and 3, when you are taught by your mentor or a supernatural being.

Yes, I will admit it is a way to have classes that do not take as much time in the normal world.

[Library Ogre]

You know, with Total Recall and a willingness to experiment, I can see you do a lot of study in the Astral plane.

Go to the astral, throw out lots of experimental magics, and remember the results. Make changes to your variables, remember the results.

[barna10]

You know, with Total Recall and a willingness to experiment, I can see you do a lot of study in the Astral plane.

Go to the astral, throw out lots of experimental magics, and remember the results. Make changes to your variables, remember the results.

Are you saying you ignore the written only restriction of Total Recall like I do?

[eliakon]

You know, with Total Recall and a willingness to experiment, I can see you do a lot of study in the Astral plane.

Go to the astral, throw out lots of experimental magics, and remember the results. Make changes to your variables, remember the results.

Sure, just get a GM to house rule away the rules on Total Recall and your set....
...of course if the GM is rewriting the rules why not just change the spell acquisition rules themselves instead of changing rules to work around that rule?

[barna10]

You know, with Total Recall and a willingness to experiment, I can see you do a lot of study in the Astral plane.

Go to the astral, throw out lots of experimental magics, and remember the results. Make changes to your variables, remember the results.

Sure, just get a GM to house rule away the rules on Total Recall and your set....
...of course if the GM is rewriting the rules why not just change the spell acquisition rules themselves instead of changing rules to work around that rule?

These has always seemed like a legitimate one to me. There is no psionic power of true "Total Recall", seems like an oversight. Changing this power to be true "Total Recall" doesn't break anything.

[eliakon]

You know, with Total Recall and a willingness to experiment, I can see you do a lot of study in the Astral plane.

Go to the astral, throw out lots of experimental magics, and remember the results. Make changes to your variables, remember the results.

Sure, just get a GM to house rule away the rules on Total Recall and your set....
...of course if the GM is rewriting the rules why not just change the spell acquisition rules themselves instead of changing rules to work around that rule?

These has always seemed like a legitimate one to me. There is no psionic power of true "Total Recall", seems like an oversight. Changing this power to be true "Total Recall" doesn't break anything.

Not saying its not....
...but if we are changing the rules to make stuff do things that they can't do in RAW .... *shrugs*
Of course it also needs then to be totally rewritten to cover how much you can recall....how many seconds/minutes/whatever's are a 'block of memory' and all that

[Axelmania]

you can't 'study' if you don't have anything to 'study'

Unless it's the magic being demonstrated by your tutor, which teaches you at a far faster rate than studying tomes anyway.

Can't see why equipment would be needed for this. It's not like we're talking about learning Diabolism.

[barna10]

you can't 'study' if you don't have anything to 'study'

Unless it's the magic being demonstrated by your tutor, which teaches you at a far faster rate than studying tomes anyway.

Can't see why equipment would be needed for this. It's not like we're talking about learning Diabolism.

Also, people learned magic before there was writing.

[eliakon]

you can't 'study' if you don't have anything to 'study'

Unless it's the magic being demonstrated by your tutor, which teaches you at a far faster rate than studying tomes anyway.

Can't see why equipment would be needed for this. It's not like we're talking about learning Diabolism.

Also, people learned magic before there was writing.

Interesting. You have a book citation for the claim that there were sorcerers/wizards/other scholastic mages that can learn spells by study before writing?

I mean if you have something you can point to that says that you can 'study' with out actually having anything to study......
(it doesn't say meditate, it doesn't say contemplate, it says study)

[barna10]

you can't 'study' if you don't have anything to 'study'

Unless it's the magic being demonstrated by your tutor, which teaches you at a far faster rate than studying tomes anyway.

Can't see why equipment would be needed for this. It's not like we're talking about learning Diabolism.

Also, people learned magic before there was writing.

Interesting. You have a book citation for the claim that there were sorcerers/wizards/other scholastic mages that can learn spells by study before writing?

I mean if you have something you can point to that says that you can 'study' with out actually having anything to study......
(it doesn't say meditate, it doesn't say contemplate, it says study)

How about a quote where a Palladium text says that learning magic, being a Wizard/Ley Line Walker/etc. requires literacy? How about one where it describes learning spells as requiring a text? I just combed through HU2, PF2, RIFTS, and RUE. and there are ZERO references to mages needing to be able to read, requiring texts, or anything like that. So, unless you can find a single reference stating studying requires written materials (or even the ability to read), it is a matter of opinion, nothing more.

[barna10]

LOL, Ley Line Walkers (in original book and RUE) don't start with literacy, neither do Ley Line Rifters....think that's pretty indicative of NOT needing to be able to read to learn spells...

[eliakon]

LOL, Ley Line Walkers (in original book and RUE) don't start with literacy, neither do Ley Line Rifters....think that's pretty indicative of NOT needing to be able to read to learn spells...

It doesn't say that their magic was pre-writing though....there are people today that drive cars that are illiterate...doesn't mean they can build a car.
Nor does it say that they can learn magic by simply studying. RMB/RUE mages can learn new spells by
1) figuring out a set number of spells as they level up
2) being taught a spell by another mage
3) literate mages can try to convert a scroll
I do not see "spend months in study" in either book



The form of learning magic that is being used here (study for months) is only available in Nightbane and HU. Both of which automatically provide literacy to the mages in question, and Nightbane even says that research libraries are needed.

[Library Ogre]

You know, with Total Recall and a willingness to experiment, I can see you do a lot of study in the Astral plane.

Go to the astral, throw out lots of experimental magics, and remember the results. Make changes to your variables, remember the results.

Sure, just get a GM to house rule away the rules on Total Recall and your set....
...of course if the GM is rewriting the rules why not just change the spell acquisition rules themselves instead of changing rules to work around that rule?

Because Total Recall hasn't always applied to only written things. Seriously, Palladium has a 30 year history... there's a lot of stuff out there, and not everyone is on the "The most recent version is the only true one" bandwagon.

[eliakon]

You know, with Total Recall and a willingness to experiment, I can see you do a lot of study in the Astral plane.

Go to the astral, throw out lots of experimental magics, and remember the results. Make changes to your variables, remember the results.

Sure, just get a GM to house rule away the rules on Total Recall and your set....
...of course if the GM is rewriting the rules why not just change the spell acquisition rules themselves instead of changing rules to work around that rule?

Because Total Recall hasn't always applied to only written things. Seriously, Palladium has a 30 year history... there's a lot of stuff out there, and not everyone is on the "The most recent version is the only true one" bandwagon.

Okay I will bite.
Where is a non-every word he reads" version?
The first instance of the power I can find in any of my books is BTS1 1st ed where it was already reading based, which is where it was cut/pasted for virtually every other book.
So where is a version that doesn't do that?

And the reason people do the 'most recent' thing is that generally one assumes that a game company changes the rules in its game, that it actually changed the rules. I mean sure, you can go back and use 1st edition rules for something, or claim that juicers don't get auto dodge bonuses or what have you, but it is sort of the normal assumption that the current rule is the actual rule, not something printed before that got changed. Since that is the point of changes.

[Library Ogre]

Okay I will bite.
Where is a non-every word he reads" version?
The first instance of the power I can find in any of my books is BTS1 1st ed where it was already reading based, which is where it was cut/pasted for virtually every other book.
So where is a version that doesn't do that?

And the reason people do the 'most recent' thing is that generally one assumes that a game company changes the rules in its game, that it actually changed the rules. I mean sure, you can go back and use 1st edition rules for something, or claim that juicers don't get auto dodge bonuses or what have you, but it is sort of the normal assumption that the current rule is the actual rule, not something printed before that got changed. Since that is the point of changes.

Palladium Fantasy, 2nd Edition, page 172.

The character remembers every word he reads or hears, or everything he sees.

Given your insistence that psi-mystics can't change class based on the text, I'd have expected you to realize the difference held sway from 1996 to the publishing of the RUE...

[barna10]

Okay I will bite.
Where is a non-every word he reads" version?
The first instance of the power I can find in any of my books is BTS1 1st ed where it was already reading based, which is where it was cut/pasted for virtually every other book.
So where is a version that doesn't do that?

And the reason people do the 'most recent' thing is that generally one assumes that a game company changes the rules in its game, that it actually changed the rules. I mean sure, you can go back and use 1st edition rules for something, or claim that juicers don't get auto dodge bonuses or what have you, but it is sort of the normal assumption that the current rule is the actual rule, not something printed before that got changed. Since that is the point of changes.

Palladium Fantasy, 2nd Edition, page 172.

The character remembers every word he reads or hears, or everything he sees.

Given your insistence that psi-mystics can't change class based on the text, I'd have expected you to realize the difference held sway from 1996 to the publishing of the RUE...

Thanks again Mark.

This serves as a lesson that there isn't truly an absolute 'canon'. What's 'canon' is what YOU choose to use as 'canon'. Some people hang on text which may very well be a typo or a cut'n'paste remnant as the true 'canon', which is fine. It means they like the error more than what was intended, and many times the error is better than what was intended...

[drewkitty ~..~]

snip...

I would rule that since the 2days/level rule is specific to Rifts/PF that it would not apply on the Astral Plane, so you'd have to go by the 'months of study' rules when moving there to take advantage of the slower time flow.

...snip

Just wanted to point out something...
The time differential between the physical world and the outer layer of the astral plane (see NB:BTS for full details of the astral plane) means that the time in the astral plane is moving faster then the time in the physical world.

[drewkitty ~..~]

snip...

Given your insistence that psi-mystics can't change class based on the text, I'd have expected you to realize the difference held sway from 1996 to the publishing of the RUE...

I do believe it is my instance that ALL PCC's (even those mislabeled as OCC's and RCC's in Rifts, due to that RUE says to use the PF2 changing class rules.) can not change their class is due to that all PCCs are forbidden from changing class by directs text statements to that effect within the PF2 canon.
~And there is the point that currently the only changing class rules in Current Published Canon are the ones in the PF2 setting books.

While I do acknowledge there are posted changing class texts in the cutting room floor both are pre-high seas and pre RUE, and are not published canon.
The changing class rules in RT 1st ed are even more out of date then the one in the cutting room floor and since the new licensing of RT are not applicable to the rest of the PB megaverse.

EDIT: I had not realized you were referring to another topic altogether Mark, which is why I posted this as I did before seeing what you were referencing in the other topic. However, I've been pointing this out for years so I'm not going to edit this except for adding this bit.

[eliakon]

Okay I will bite.
Where is a non-every word he reads" version?
The first instance of the power I can find in any of my books is BTS1 1st ed where it was already reading based, which is where it was cut/pasted for virtually every other book.
So where is a version that doesn't do that?

And the reason people do the 'most recent' thing is that generally one assumes that a game company changes the rules in its game, that it actually changed the rules. I mean sure, you can go back and use 1st edition rules for something, or claim that juicers don't get auto dodge bonuses or what have you, but it is sort of the normal assumption that the current rule is the actual rule, not something printed before that got changed. Since that is the point of changes.

Palladium Fantasy, 2nd Edition, page 172.

The character remembers every word he reads or hears, or everything he sees.

Given your insistence that psi-mystics can't change class based on the text, I'd have expected you to realize the difference held sway from 1996 to the publishing of the RUE...

Interesting. It would seem that indeed PF2 and HU2 use a different version of Total Recall than the other games do.
I had not noticed the change.

[eliakon]

Okay I will bite.
Where is a non-every word he reads" version?
The first instance of the power I can find in any of my books is BTS1 1st ed where it was already reading based, which is where it was cut/pasted for virtually every other book.
So where is a version that doesn't do that?

And the reason people do the 'most recent' thing is that generally one assumes that a game company changes the rules in its game, that it actually changed the rules. I mean sure, you can go back and use 1st edition rules for something, or claim that juicers don't get auto dodge bonuses or what have you, but it is sort of the normal assumption that the current rule is the actual rule, not something printed before that got changed. Since that is the point of changes.

Palladium Fantasy, 2nd Edition, page 172.

The character remembers every word he reads or hears, or everything he sees.

Given your insistence that psi-mystics can't change class based on the text, I'd have expected you to realize the difference held sway from 1996 to the publishing of the RUE...

Thanks again Mark.

This serves as a lesson that there isn't truly an absolute 'canon'. What's 'canon' is what YOU choose to use as 'canon'. Some people hang on text which may very well be a typo or a cut'n'paste remnant as the true 'canon', which is fine. It means they like the error more than what was intended, and many times the error is better than what was intended...

Canon is easy.
What is actually printed in the books is canon.
In this particular case it would appear that HU2 canon and PF2 canon is different than the canon for all the other games (Rifts, BTS1, BTS2, TMNT, ATB, HU1, PF1, and NB)

[Axelmania]

snip...

I would rule that since the 2days/level rule is specific to Rifts/PF that it would not apply on the Astral Plane, so you'd have to go by the 'months of study' rules when moving there to take advantage of the slower time flow.

...snip

Just wanted to point out something...
The time differential between the physical world and the outer layer of the astral plane (see NB:BTS for full details of the astral plane) means that the time in the astral plane is moving faster then the time in the physical world.

This is sometimes I can't really make up my mind on. If I experience 1 week in an alien dimension while only a minute has passed in my home dimension... actually yeah I see your point there.

[Lukterran]

Can't believe no body mentioned the Knowledge — Power Circle. This is the easiest way to steal magic spell knowledge from a wizard. Cut out his tongue and burn it.

Anyone in the Circle can gain the knowledge from that wizard for as long as they remain in the circle. The knowledge fades after you leave the circle but nobody said you can't write the incantation down while you remain inside the active circle. Then study and learn it the proper way. Total Recall would also help. Also having a Tome of Images is great for just such uses.