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Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:54 pm
  

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So, a fun thought I want to share with people, so someone can use it:

Necromancer, with a T-Man's hide (be it a vest, or scraps of skin, or whatever), who uses his magic to activate the tattoos inscribed on the skin.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:57 pm
  

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A scrap of skin that they slap onto their body, bond with, and then activate.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 7:51 pm
  

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Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:43 am
  

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For more fun...
by the rules it would seem that you should be able to use a T-mans skull for this trick!
T-men become supernatural beings after all.
And the tattoos are explicitly defined as their magic. The only magic they can use in point of fact.
And if you wear a supernatural creatures skull you get their magic at half their level...

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Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:09 am
  

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eliakon wrote:
For more fun...
by the rules it would seem that you should be able to use a T-mans skull for this trick!
T-men become supernatural beings after all.
And the tattoos are explicitly defined as their magic. The only magic they can use in point of fact.
And if you wear a supernatural creatures skull you get their magic at half their level...


I like the idea of an ogre-skull helm, with the ogre's skin carefully flensed from the rest of the corpse, trailing like a cloak...

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Whiskerbutt (n): homemade RPG materials found in secondhand RPG materials.
[T]he Republicans [are] unique relics of the past. - Sourcebook 1 (revised, p. 6)

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Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:27 pm
  

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Mark Hall wrote:
eliakon wrote:
For more fun...
by the rules it would seem that you should be able to use a T-mans skull for this trick!
T-men become supernatural beings after all.
And the tattoos are explicitly defined as their magic. The only magic they can use in point of fact.
And if you wear a supernatural creatures skull you get their magic at half their level...


I like the idea of an ogre-skull helm, with the ogre's skin carefully flensed from the rest of the corpse, trailing like a cloak...

I like this enough that I am going to make it an official item in my games!

Crown of Xipe Totec
This horrific necromatic creation is the flayed and preserved of a Tattooed person that has been sewn into a cloak and is attached to a helm formed out of the victims skull!
PPE to merge: 100
The necromancer gains 20 MDC+1 per tattoo on the skin, the ability to speak the T-mans languages... and most horrifically they can use the tattoos as if they were their own! Level of the tattoo is one half that of the victim.

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Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


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Unread postPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2019 1:20 am
  

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That is dark and evil, but I love it.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2019 1:09 pm
  

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Mark Hall wrote:
So, a fun thought I want to share with people, so someone can use it:

Necromancer, with a T-Man's hide (be it a vest, or scraps of skin, or whatever), who uses his magic to activate the tattoos inscribed on the skin.

Not to be a downer, but would this even work? The magic itself isn't connected to the skin, but rather the subject's PPE (WB21 pg107, WB2 pg85). The only one who can activate the tattoos is the actual recipient (a possessing entity can not activate new tattoos, WB2 pg 86/88/90).

This all leads me to think that even if the tattoo retains its magic (doubtful), the necromancer wouldn't be able to activate them and would likely be considered a possessing entity.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2019 3:41 pm
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:
So, a fun thought I want to share with people, so someone can use it:

Necromancer, with a T-Man's hide (be it a vest, or scraps of skin, or whatever), who uses his magic to activate the tattoos inscribed on the skin.

Not to be a downer, but would this even work? The magic itself isn't connected to the skin, but rather the subject's PPE (WB21 pg107, WB2 pg85). The only one who can activate the tattoos is the actual recipient (a possessing entity can not activate new tattoos, WB2 pg 86/88/90).

This all leads me to think that even if the tattoo retains its magic (doubtful), the necromancer wouldn't be able to activate them and would likely be considered a possessing entity.

The same way that a necromancer can cast the spells that a person knew.
Or gain their languages.
Or use their skills.
Or access their memories.
Because necromancy lets you access bits of their soul/PPE.
When you merge with the dead, while the merge is active, it is in some ways as if the thing is alive again in a limited fashion... and a part of you.
There are reasons that most people find Necromancers to be horribly squicky individuals and that the art is considered foul and dark. And this sort of thing is one of the reasons why. The core premise of the art involves tampering with souls and life forces.

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Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


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Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:29 am
  

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Given Statements in WB2 and WB21 though I find it unlikely this would work.
pg.85-WB2 "... can NEVER remove the tattoos and regain his powers unless the actual limb with the tattoos is removed." and bit later "Removing layers of skin does not work as the tattoos are linked to the potential psyhic energy and essence of the individual and only reappear."

This to me reads like, a necromancer could take the skin/limb off, but the magic tattoos do not go with them as the link is severed.

The Necromancer's link comes across as "possession", which is called out numerous times to be a blocked off. So even if the link wasn't severed, which is unlikely IMHO, it couldn't be activated.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 5:41 pm
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
Given Statements in WB2 and WB21 though I find it unlikely this would work.
pg.85-WB2 "... can NEVER remove the tattoos and regain his powers unless the actual limb with the tattoos is removed." and bit later "Removing layers of skin does not work as the tattoos are linked to the potential psyhic energy and essence of the individual and only reappear."

This to me reads like, a necromancer could take the skin/limb off, but the magic tattoos do not go with them as the link is severed.

The Necromancer's link comes across as "possession", which is called out numerous times to be a blocked off. So even if the link wasn't severed, which is unlikely IMHO, it couldn't be activated.

Two points. "the whole section of skin" is not "layers of skin" but more to the point...

When you kill the guy and take their entire skin and skull. At that point you are not taking just a swatch of skin your taking their entire skin and their essence.

I agree that just taking a bit of skin like the first idea wouldn't work. But that is why the idea ended up with a full skin cloak + Skull combo. Unless there is something elsewhere that says that Tattoo magic is some how special and that it some how is exempt from the usual rules of necromancy?
Because if you have the full skin + skull you have their essence and access to their entire magic... aka you have their tattoos.
Technically you don't even need their skin. Rules As Written just bonding the skull will cause the tattoos to appear on your skin for your use for the duration of the bond, that whole "the tattoos will reappear" thing.
But that isn't nearly as creepy thus I added the skull for added squick.

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Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


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Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:44 am
  

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eliakon
All you've shown is that the necromancer can get the tattoos. There is nothing to indicate that any one other than the T-Man it was intend for can activate/use them. You can't mentally possess a T-Man and use their tattoos, even if you know about Tattoo Magic (ex. Splugorth). The Necromancer might gain the knowledge from liking with the T-Man's skull, but still can't use them.

The Necromancer Link examples in Africa (WB4) don't list what happens with the skull of T-man or anything on the level of a T-Man (I see Dragon and powerful supernatural monster, with examples of PSN which does not include T-man). A T-Man is not in the realm of Gods, Demon Lords, greater Demons, or Dragons.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:14 pm
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
eliakon
All you've shown is that the necromancer can get the tattoos. There is nothing to indicate that any one other than the T-Man it was intend for can activate/use them. You can't mentally possess a T-Man and use their tattoos, even if you know about Tattoo Magic (ex. Splugorth). The Necromancer might gain the knowledge from liking with the T-Man's skull, but still can't use them.

The Necromancer Link examples in Africa (WB4) don't list what happens with the skull of T-man or anything on the level of a T-Man (I see Dragon and powerful supernatural monster, with examples of PSN which does not include T-man). A T-Man is not in the realm of Gods, Demon Lords, greater Demons, or Dragons.


It would depend mostly on if T-Men are considered greater or lesser supernatural beings to be honest.
If they are lesser beings then no, it won't work. It also means that they can be summoned with the level 13 spell "summon lesser being", can not cross Protection Circles and can not even be with in sight of Greater Protection Ciricles and all the other trials and tribulations that come with being a lesser supernatural being.
If they are greater beings, they are less hampered... but now their skulls are that of a greater being and can be used by necromancers.
:bandit:
As I see it... heads dark wizards win, tails Atlantians lose. :twisted:
The unholy sound you hear is the Splugorth Laughing by the way. :lol:

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The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


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Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:49 pm
  

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eliakon wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:
eliakon wrote:
For more fun...
by the rules it would seem that you should be able to use a T-mans skull for this trick!
T-men become supernatural beings after all.
And the tattoos are explicitly defined as their magic. The only magic they can use in point of fact.
And if you wear a supernatural creatures skull you get their magic at half their level...


I like the idea of an ogre-skull helm, with the ogre's skin carefully flensed from the rest of the corpse, trailing like a cloak...

I like this enough that I am going to make it an official item in my games!

Crown of Xipe Totec
This horrific necromatic creation is the flayed and preserved of a Tattooed person that has been sewn into a cloak and is attached to a helm formed out of the victims skull!
PPE to merge: 100
The necromancer gains 20 MDC+1 per tattoo on the skin, the ability to speak the T-mans languages... and most horrifically they can use the tattoos as if they were their own! Level of the tattoo is one half that of the victim.


A Necro-Tech could make this item usable by others?

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Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:57 am
  

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eliakon wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:
eliakon
All you've shown is that the necromancer can get the tattoos. There is nothing to indicate that any one other than the T-Man it was intend for can activate/use them. You can't mentally possess a T-Man and use their tattoos, even if you know about Tattoo Magic (ex. Splugorth). The Necromancer might gain the knowledge from liking with the T-Man's skull, but still can't use them.

The Necromancer Link examples in Africa (WB4) don't list what happens with the skull of T-man or anything on the level of a T-Man (I see Dragon and powerful supernatural monster, with examples of PSN which does not include T-man). A T-Man is not in the realm of Gods, Demon Lords, greater Demons, or Dragons.


It would depend mostly on if T-Men are considered greater or lesser supernatural beings to be honest.
If they are lesser beings then no, it won't work. It also means that they can be summoned with the level 13 spell "summon lesser being", can not cross Protection Circles and can not even be with in sight of Greater Protection Ciricles and all the other trials and tribulations that come with being a lesser supernatural being.
If they are greater beings, they are less hampered... but now their skulls are that of a greater being and can be used by necromancers.
:bandit:
As I see it... heads dark wizards win, tails Atlantians lose. :twisted:
The unholy sound you hear is the Splugorth Laughing by the way. :lol:

I don't think it will matter if they are lesser or greater SN. The only person who can use Tattoo magic is the person for whom it was intended (WB2 states this is 3 different places alone, a possessing entity can not activate/cancel T-magic, and there are examples in WB12 of symbiotic links with limitations on who can access what). The death of the T-man will also destroy the link connecting their potential psychic energy and essence with the tattoo themselves since the T-man's PPE would be released upon death.

Use of Tattoo magic will also incur some other issues. Does the Necromancer pay x2 the PPE cost for being a non-T-man? Is Tattoo Magic even compatible with the Necromancer abilities (for 7 or more tattoos would cancel out necromancer abilities, but without those abilities the necromancer can't use T-magic creating a paradox)? Just how many Magic Tattoos would appear? (all or limited to the sections taken from the T-man). T-magic can only be used by certain races, what if the Necromancer them-self is not a member of that small selection of races? (and if they are how does bonding with limbs from other races impact how the magic sees them, do they still retain human status for example if they also bonded to a Tiger's paw?)

There are a lot of thorny areas and the easiest explanation is that a Necromancer can't access T-magic, even if they bond with appropriate body parts.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:02 pm
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
eliakon wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:
eliakon
All you've shown is that the necromancer can get the tattoos. There is nothing to indicate that any one other than the T-Man it was intend for can activate/use them. You can't mentally possess a T-Man and use their tattoos, even if you know about Tattoo Magic (ex. Splugorth). The Necromancer might gain the knowledge from liking with the T-Man's skull, but still can't use them.

The Necromancer Link examples in Africa (WB4) don't list what happens with the skull of T-man or anything on the level of a T-Man (I see Dragon and powerful supernatural monster, with examples of PSN which does not include T-man). A T-Man is not in the realm of Gods, Demon Lords, greater Demons, or Dragons.


It would depend mostly on if T-Men are considered greater or lesser supernatural beings to be honest.
If they are lesser beings then no, it won't work. It also means that they can be summoned with the level 13 spell "summon lesser being", can not cross Protection Circles and can not even be with in sight of Greater Protection Ciricles and all the other trials and tribulations that come with being a lesser supernatural being.
If they are greater beings, they are less hampered... but now their skulls are that of a greater being and can be used by necromancers.
:bandit:
As I see it... heads dark wizards win, tails Atlantians lose. :twisted:
The unholy sound you hear is the Splugorth Laughing by the way. :lol:

I don't think it will matter if they are lesser or greater SN. The only person who can use Tattoo magic is the person for whom it was intended (WB2 states this is 3 different places alone, a possessing entity can not activate/cancel T-magic, and there are examples in WB12 of symbiotic links with limitations on who can access what). The death of the T-man will also destroy the link connecting their potential psychic energy and essence with the tattoo themselves since the T-man's PPE would be released upon death.

Oh my yes in deed, it will matter vastly if they are lesser or greater.
If they are greater then they are just that... Greater Beings. Just like greater demons! In fact they become identical in every way that matters... and thus their skulls work just the same... including allowing the use of their magic in every way, shape and form.

And once again, this is not possession, nor is this symbiosis nor any other non-equivalent example.
Possessing entities and symbionts and other non-similar things do not gain access to, and the full use of, use of the hosts full magic powers.
Necromancers do.
Full Stop.
When the text says "all magical powers" that means "all magical power"
Again, Full Stop
This includes tattoos... unless we are to argue that tattoos are not a magical power of the T-Man. :lol:

ShadowLogan wrote:
Use of Tattoo magic will also incur some other issues. Does the Necromancer pay x2 the PPE cost for being a non-T-man?

For the duration of the merge who ever the skull is bonded to would effectively *be* a T-man would be the way I would run it (since
other wise they would have Tattoo magic and their other magic, and I think that is a no-no.
I say this because the definition of T-man is "has seven or more tattoos". No more no less. There is no "training period" or any other sort of qualifier. T-man status is a binary state with a threshold status. If Tattoo Less than 7 then Not T-Man. If Tattoo equal to 7 or more, then T-Man.
And if they now have 7 or more tattoos (which they have to because they are using the skull) that means that for the duration by the rules they are a T-man.

ShadowLogan wrote:
Is Tattoo Magic even compatible with the Necromancer abilities (for 7 or more tattoos would cancel out necromancer abilities, but without those abilities the necromancer can't use T-magic creating a paradox)?

That isn't a paradox in the slightest. It doesn't say that it cancels spells that the mage has running if they get another tattoo... the idea that this would happen is absurd.
Thus it simply means that if the Necromancer uses it on themselves, for the duration of the meld they are a T-man and can't use other powers.

ShadowLogan wrote:
Just how many Magic Tattoos would appear? (all or limited to the sections taken from the T-man).

All of them. The wording of the power is explicit "all magic possessed by the victim at half their level"
All means all.

ShadowLogan wrote:
T-magic can only be used by certain races, what if the Necromancer them-self is not a member of that small selection of races? (and if they are how does bonding with limbs from other races impact how the magic sees them, do they still retain human status for example if they also bonded to a Tiger's paw?)

That will be a GM call on a case by case.
There are two interpretations for the GM to choose from.
1) that the skull provides the magic that the T-man used... as seen from the point of the T-man. Thus if you use the skull of an Elf you get the weaker versions that the elf had and all that. And that thus you are using the soul/life force of the T-man via the skull as your interface and they work for whom ever it is bonded to. This has extensive president actually since the skulls allow the use of other restricted magic such as warlock spells, racial spells, clerical spells, and all other magic powers of the victim with no limitations or restrictions provided which is a pretty big deal when your talking about greater supernatural creatures and gods.
Or
2) That the skull provides the magic that the T-man used... but it is up to you to be able to 'interface' with it properly. Thus the skulls are only of use to the appropriate races (there is no canon support for this, but a GM who wishes to limit necromancers can go with this). This of course will then result in most of the best skulls getting nerffed as the GM just house-ruled away access to warlock magic, clerical magic, and all the other rare highly limited specialized and restricted magical powers that are often sought out.

ShadowLogan wrote:
There are a lot of thorny areas and the easiest explanation is that a Necromancer can't access T-magic, even if they bond with appropriate body parts.

The idea that "well, this looks complicated... so I am just going to ignore part of your class powers because it is simpler" is one of the worst possible reasons to assume that a power doesn't work. Especially in Palladium where everything is complicated already.
And especially since all the 'thorny areas' you presented aren't thorny at all and are, in fact, less of an issue that the basic power that is being used itself!

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Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


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Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:05 pm
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:
So, a fun thought I want to share with people, so someone can use it:

Necromancer, with a T-Man's hide (be it a vest, or scraps of skin, or whatever), who uses his magic to activate the tattoos inscribed on the skin.

Not to be a downer, but would this even work? The magic itself isn't connected to the skin, but rather the subject's PPE (WB21 pg107, WB2 pg85). The only one who can activate the tattoos is the actual recipient (a possessing entity can not activate new tattoos, WB2 pg 86/88/90).

This all leads me to think that even if the tattoo retains its magic (doubtful), the necromancer wouldn't be able to activate them and would likely be considered a possessing entity.


It works because it connects with the underlying technology of all things Palladium: it's cool.

Logical sense is greatly over-rated in dealing with Palladium magic. "It's really cool" is a far better guiding principal.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:48 am
  

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Mark Hall wrote:
It works because it connects with the underlying technology of all things Palladium: it's cool.

Logical sense is greatly over-rated in dealing with Palladium magic. "It's really cool" is a far better guiding principal.


Can't argue with the rule of cool directly, but have you considered some of other variables involved?

eliakon wrote:
That will be a GM call on a case by case.

Actually this will be the case with a lot of aspects for this:
-what level of SN creature does a T-Man represent (lesser, greater, some other unknown categorization level), Chiang-Ku Dragon is already covered by "Dragon Skull" (but the rest is still a GM call)
-PPE Cost (pay at T-man rate or non-T-man rate)
-Magical Compatibility
-number of tattoos to appear
-racial issue
-does the link between the tattoos and the T-man's essence/PPE remain after death (obviously resurrection restores it, but the Necromancer ability isn't really resurrection)
-can they even activate the Tattoos (sure they might know how to use them, but they may still not be able to activate them as each magic tattoo is essentially biometricly locked)
-would the necromancer take damage for receiving each magic tattoo this way (WB2 pg84)? If they take damage (along with recovery/sideeffects, even if the tattoos don't last) and all tattoos appear just a regular T-man would inflict over 36d6 to SDC/HP (36-216 points minimum, 126 average), T-monster, Maxi-men, Undead Slayer classes will be more).

Given the level of GMs call in this matter...

eliakon wrote:
There is no "training period" or any other sort of qualifier.

WB2 pg 93 "... trained in the use of the tattoos..." (Tattoo Man OCC)

eliakon wrote:
That isn't a paradox in the slightest. It doesn't say that it cancels spells that the mage has running if they get another tattoo... the idea that this would happen is absurd.

It is a paradox. It is a GMs call if it cancels other active magic or not.

And how many mages would have spells running when they get a Tattoo (by normal means, they can get a few and not be T-men)? The books don't say how long it takes to get the magic tattoo (AFAIK), but it can't be fast.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:17 pm
  

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
ShadowLogan wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:
It works because it connects with the underlying technology of all things Palladium: it's cool.

Logical sense is greatly over-rated in dealing with Palladium magic. "It's really cool" is a far better guiding principal.


Can't argue with the rule of cool directly, but have you considered some of other variables involved?

eliakon wrote:
That will be a GM call on a case by case.

Actually this will be the case with a lot of aspects for this:
-what level of SN creature does a T-Man represent (lesser, greater, some other unknown categorization level)

This is a binary status.
Lesser or Greater pick one. There is no other category (barring house rules).
And I already pointed out the results of both choices. GMs can pick which one they want in their game and do that.

ShadowLogan wrote:
Chiang-Ku Dragon is already covered by "Dragon Skull" (but the rest is still a GM call)

They are indeed!
Which right there means that this works.
Since canon already states that we can get tattoos via skull ritual. So there is no longer any question of "if". It is already canon that it works.
So that right there removes all the "if" questions.
The only question then is what happens once you do it.

ShadowLogan wrote:
-PPE Cost (pay at T-man rate or non-T-man rate)

There is nothing to decide.
They are T-men.
Full stop.
The entire definition of T-man is "has 7 or more tattoos". While this is in effect the subject has 7+ tattoos. Ergo they are T-men. It isn't hard.

ShadowLogan wrote:
-Magical Compatibility

There is no compatibility issue.
None.
The Power is pretty cut and dried. Mystic Russia page 89.
Gains all the magical powers of the creature.
That is pretty clear cut.
There is no "if compatible"
there is no "Unless the magic is Tattoos"
There is no "except for certain cases"
It is a blanket universal all statement. All means all.

ShadowLogan wrote:
-number of tattoos to appear

Again Mystic Russia page 89
All of them. That isn't up for debate. The text says you get "all the creatures magical powers" that means you get all their magical powers. All of them.
All means all.

ShadowLogan wrote:
-racial issue

There is no racial issue. Unless of course you are going to try and argue that necromancers should also be held to racial issues and class issues for all the other magic that they steal...
...and which point the entire point of the power is nullified.
Seriously. Because, once again Mystic Russia page 89. The power gives you "all that creatures magical powers". If you do not actually get all of the creatures magical powers, then that is a house rule changing the written text.
Full Stop.
This isn't hard.

ShadowLogan wrote:
-does the link between the tattoos and the T-man's essence/PPE remain after death (obviously resurrection restores it, but the Necromancer ability isn't really resurrection)

Again, not a question
The link between the tattoos and the skull exists.
Full stop.
We know this because the necromancer can, explicitly, access your magic via your skull.
Again full stop.
Thus there is a link to your magic (symbolicly at least) via your skull that a necromancer can use as a link to connect to and use your magic.
The power is pretty explicit. How do we know? Yet again we turn to Mystic Russia page 89. You gain "all the magical abilities of the creature"
Checklist time.
Are tattoos magical abilities? Yes
Were they a magical ability of the skull donor? yes
then there is a link that provides them.
Just like there is a link that provides Warlock spells. Or Biomancy Spells. Or Shaman Spells. Or Priest Spells. Or Soulmancy spells. Or Witch spells. Or Mystic Bestowed Super Abilities. Or any other form of magic abilities you care to name.

ShadowLogan wrote:
-can they even activate the Tattoos (sure they might know how to use them, but they may still not be able to activate them as each magic tattoo is essentially biometricly locked)

Again, No question.
The text is explicit that the necromancer has full access to the magic.
Not "the magic is there but can not be used"

ShadowLogan wrote:
-would the necromancer take damage for receiving each magic tattoo this way (WB2 pg84)? If they take damage (along with recovery/sideeffects, even if the tattoos don't last) and all tattoos appear just a regular T-man would inflict over 36d6 to SDC/HP (36-216 points minimum, 126 average), T-monster, Maxi-men, Undead Slayer classes will be more).

No of course not.
They are not 'getting them' they are borrowing them.
They would no more take the damage then they would need to meditate on ley lines to gain the spells of a mystic. Or pay the gaining costs of any other class.
The T-man paid the price of the magic already, the Necromancer is just tapping into their soul to steal it.
More to the point. The Necromancer is gaining the magical powers, not the tattoos themselves.
The tattoos are not bonding to the Necromancers soul.

ShadowLogan wrote:
Given the level of GMs call in this matter...

Is there some reason that you are opposed to this?
I ask because you keep trying to come up with reasons why this won't work.
Reasons that require that we ignore the written text of how the necromancer abilities work and assume that they do not actually work as written.
Or reasons that require the GM to make up a house rule to even exist in the first place!
Reasons that even when they are refuted you continue to restate instead of attempting to address the refutation.
Is there some reason that you are opposed to necromancers getting access to more tattoo magic since they already canonically can from Chaing-Ku skulls with absolutely no problems what so ever, so this would just expand the options, assuming that the Gm rules T-men are greater supernatural beings so as to avoid the limitations imposed on lesser beings.

ShadowLogan wrote:
eliakon wrote:
There is no "training period" or any other sort of qualifier.

WB2 pg 93 "... trained in the use of the tattoos..." (Tattoo Man OCC)

Sadly that is not the only qualifier.
The cost break applies to anyone who has 7+ tattoos. Ergo having 7+ tattoos gets you the cost break.
Especially since, by canon, getting the 7th tattoo instantly turns a person into a T-man. On the spot. Instantly. No training period needed.

ShadowLogan wrote:
eliakon wrote:
That isn't a paradox in the slightest. It doesn't say that it cancels spells that the mage has running if they get another tattoo... the idea that this would happen is absurd.

It is a paradox. It is a GMs call if it cancels other active magic or not.

Only if the GM is making up a house rule to change the written text.
Seriously. There is nothing in Tattoo magic that says it negates ongoing spells. Nothing.
I challenge you to provide a text citation that says it negates a non-maintained spell. Please note that as there are some pretty long lasting spells out there, some of which are designed to be curses that are almost impossible to remove with out the caster lifting it... I find it unlikely that there is a free, unmentioned loophole that gets people out of these curses... but is not even written into the text!
Especially since the only canon way to end spells is for the caster to end it (they no longer can) or use negation magic (this is not negation magic this is blocking the caster)

ShadowLogan wrote:
And how many mages would have spells running when they get a Tattoo (by normal means, they can get a few and not be T-men)? The books don't say how long it takes to get the magic tattoo (AFAIK), but it can't be fast.

Considering that there are dozens of spells out there with durations of years, decades, or even "life of the caster unless canceled" I would say that yes it would be a pretty relevant issue.
The fact that the canon says nothing about adding this totally unstated (and very powerful and frankly unique) feature to tattoo magic speaks volumes.
If there were an ability to cancel all spells that the mage had ever cast in their lifetime, such as familiar link, sanctums, long duration curses, transformations, clones, various summoning spells, living spells, friends in the head, soul jars, created undead, et multiple cetera... one would think that such a vastly powerful ability (seriously! some of the spells that this would negate include curses that are tricky for gods to lift!) would get at least a passing mention in at least one of the books that have talked about tattoo magic over the years.
But as it is, not a peep.
We have, in fact, gotten the opposite. We have a specific list of what the explicit side effects of tattoos are. Which tells us that side effects that are not on the list are not things that happen.

_________________
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


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Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:06 pm
  

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Wanderer

Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:07 am
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Comment: If I could go back in time, I would join the cast of "The Thrilling Adventure Hour"
There is a certain reverence I have noticed among players for Tattoo Magic. The idea that it is sacrosanct and cannot be perverted. I think this has arisen, at least in part, due to how it is presented in the books. The limits on race, the super secret nature of knowledge about how to create the tattoos, etc. Because of this, I'm not at all surprised that there is vehement opposition to this idea. Personally, while I wouldn't want a player to have it (I prefer Necromancy to be a tool of NPC villains), I do like the idea and find it to be clever and cool. I would definitely consider outfitting a villain with such an item. As a player, I think I would be terrified to encounter such a monster.

_________________
taalismn wrote:
Hey, you came up with a novel, attention-getting idea, you did the legwork, you worked it through, you made it fit the setting, even though initial thought might be 'nah, it can't work, it's too silly/stupid/lame', and you posted something that only required a little adjustment, yet can be added to, without diluting its original concept. How can we not give you due support and credit?


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Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:29 am
  

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Knight

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elaikon wrote:
This is a binary status.
Lesser or Greater pick one. There is no other category (barring house rules).
And I already pointed out the results of both choices. GMs can pick which one they want in their game and do that.

I agree it is binary state, but PB does at times avoid clarifying which category they fall under which could suggest a third state (or its supposed to be obvious which one, but if it was obvious the SN category for a T-man wouldn't be indoubt).

eliakon wrote:
They are indeed!
Which right there means that this works.
Since canon already states that we can get tattoos via skull ritual. So there is no longer any question of "if". It is already canon that it works.
So that right there removes all the "if" questions.
The only question then is what happens once you do it.

Except these Dragons are thought to be extinct (they aren't). So a Necromancer finding a skull of one is unlikely. I don't think that canon states they get tattoos, they get the knowledge yes, but not the tattoos themselves (see below).

eliakon wrote:
Is there some reason that you are opposed to this?
I ask because you keep trying to come up with reasons why this won't work.

The text makes it clear this stuff is permanent unless the limb is removed. If as you say ALL tattoos appear, then they would appear on non-borrowed parts to and by extension be there permanently. If the tattoos aren't really there, then the Necromancer can't actually touch them to activate. Remember it takes a 7th level Tattoo man to activate without touch. Using a Chiang-ku Dragon Skull they can't (fixed at 5th level), SN Skull would require the T-man to have been Level 14 or 15 since the Necromancer casts at 1/2 their proficiency (so level 13/2=6.5) making it very unlikely. And we don't even know if the T-man skull qualifies as powerful enough (WB4 equates the power level to gods/godlings/greater demon/demon-lord as examples, which IMHO the T-man is not on this level).

The spontaneous appearance of the tattoos is also in question given:
-appearing on other parts of the body (not from the T-man) would be unique for the necromatic ability. A Dragon Skull doesn't cause you to sprout wings, claws, tail, etc from that race. Or any identifying marks from the creature. So if all you have is the literal skull (or even just the head w/o tattoos) it doesn't look like they would appear (per text a dead limb still looks like a dead limb). If the T-Man's hide is also included it would have to be attached to the skull, as I don't see a section for hides in WB4 (horns, claws, limbs yes, hide/skin no).
-if a T-man loses a limb, they obviously lose the tattoos. Text makes it clear that a Bio-System Cyber Limb replacement doesn't cause new tattoos to appear since this is one option to get rid of tattoos for a normal spell caster. Bio-Systems don't interfere with T-man's abilities (T-man OCC can get Bio-System cybernetics that don't interfere with casting, unlike mechanical ones). Further supporting the idea that the tattoos would not just appear due to the link/borrow/possession.

Then there is the question if they can actually activate the T-Man's tattoos. A possessing entity can't "borrow" a T-Man's body and activate Tattoo magic because it is keyed to the specific person it was given to, allowing Necromancy to circumvent this ("borrowing" body parts) has other ramifications in dealing with magic keyed to specific individuals. Is a Necromancer who bonds with a Dragon Skull (for example) able to give commands to any Golem/Zombie/Mummie that Dragon created as if they are that person? What if the Dragon had a Sealed Circle that only he/she could enter? What if the Dragon was a Diabolist, is the Necromancer now immune to the dragon's Wards to? I'm sure there are other examples out there.

eliakon wrote:
Sadly that is not the only qualifier.
The cost break applies to anyone who has 7+ tattoos. Ergo having 7+ tattoos gets you the cost break.
Especially since, by canon, getting the 7th tattoo instantly turns a person into a T-man. On the spot. Instantly. No training period needed.

Going by the text in WB2 though this implies there is a training period even if you have less than 7. You couldn't give a Cyber-Knight a magic tattoo (just one) and expect them to instantly be able to use it, they do have to be trained. This is supported by the TA RCC/Race writeup in WB2 (pg16) "All Atlanteans are thought how to use their tattoos.", since all/common TAs have their marks of heritage pair...


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Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:16 pm
  

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Monk

Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2003 7:22 pm
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Location: 2nd Degree Black Belt of Post Fu
Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
Mark Hall wrote:
A scrap of skin that they slap onto their body, bond with, and then activate.

The problem is Necromancers don't "Slap it onto their body", their power actually bonds with it and makes it a part of their own body, hence why it's called "Union with the dead" and not "draw power from dead body parts". Which means that once they Unify with it, they'd get slapped with the same no-magic-after-7-tattoos rule, which would either cause the Union with the dead to shut off and the attached body parts fall off, or make them stuck with it unless they physically remove it again.

Don't get me wrong, it's a clever idea! but based on re-reading the actual Union with the dead power, and how it specifically becomes physically and mystically part of the Necromancer i'd say not that you couldn't bond with a T-man's limbs, but that it wouldn't work as a workaround. it's just a way to get a bunch of tattoos quickly and you still loose Necromancer magic until you probablly physically cut off the T-man body part in question.

Unless the body part has 6 or less, in which case, clever thinking!

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Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:04 pm
  

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Palladin

Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
ShadowLogan wrote:
elaikon wrote:
This is a binary status.
Lesser or Greater pick one. There is no other category (barring house rules).
And I already pointed out the results of both choices. GMs can pick which one they want in their game and do that.

I agree it is binary state, but PB does at times avoid clarifying which category they fall under which could suggest a third state (or its supposed to be obvious which one, but if it was obvious the SN category for a T-man wouldn't be indoubt).

Not really.
Most supernatural beings are not clarified.
Seriously let me restate that. The majority of supernatural beings are not stated if they are greater or lesser.
Not even all demons are clearly marked.
Thus the idea that the lack of a label on this one supernatural being means that they are outside the normal rules is absurd.

ShadowLogan wrote:
eliakon wrote:
They are indeed!
Which right there means that this works.
Since canon already states that we can get tattoos via skull ritual. So there is no longer any question of "if". It is already canon that it works.
So that right there removes all the "if" questions.
The only question then is what happens once you do it.

Except these Dragons are thought to be extinct (they aren't). So a Necromancer finding a skull of one is unlikely. I don't think that canon states they get tattoos, they get the knowledge yes, but not the tattoos themselves (see below).

The whole "thought to be extinct" thing appears to have been retconned away (sort of like how for a 'dying races' there sure seem to be a lot of Atlantians... :P)
Seriously. That didn't last past WB3
It also doesn't rule out finding the skulls.

ShadowLogan wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Is there some reason that you are opposed to this?
I ask because you keep trying to come up with reasons why this won't work.

The text makes it clear this stuff is permanent unless the limb is removed. If as you say ALL tattoos appear, then they would appear on non-borrowed parts to and by extension be there permanently.

Sigh
Again, you are changing the power.
This is not applying Tattoos to the person.
It is stealing the power of someone else's Tattoos.
You keep conflating the two
Thus they are not permanent (unless you are claiming that using this skull will instantly and permanently turn people into T-men. In which case level 8 Necromancers are going to be churning out T-men left and right..)

ShadowLogan wrote:
If the tattoos aren't really there, then the Necromancer can't actually touch them to activate.

Again you seem to be going out of your way to invent ways to prevent something from working. Ways that require that we ignore the listed power.
yes, for the duration the tattoos are there. And then they go away.
This is what it means to 'have the power'
We know that the tattoos can magically appear on flesh and disappear. Thus guess what? They magically appear while the power is active and disappear when it deactivates.

ShadowLogan wrote:
Remember it takes a 7th level Tattoo man to activate without touch. Using a Chiang-ku Dragon Skull they can't (fixed at 5th level), SN Skull would require the T-man to have been Level 14 or 15 since the Necromancer casts at 1/2 their proficiency (so level 13/2=6.5) making it very unlikely. And we don't even know if the T-man skull qualifies as powerful enough (WB4 equates the power level to gods/godlings/greater demon/demon-lord as examples, which IMHO the T-man is not on this level).

Again you are making up limitations that are not part of the system to address a problem that does not exist.
It does not matter what their level is. They can simply touch their tattoos that will be right there on the skin.
The tattoos will no more not be there than they will be missing from a T-man put in a new clone body.

ShadowLogan wrote:
The spontaneous appearance of the tattoos is also in question given:
-appearing on other parts of the body (not from the T-man) would be unique for the necromatic ability. A Dragon Skull doesn't cause you to sprout wings, claws, tail, etc from that race. Or any identifying marks from the creature. So if all you have is the literal skull (or even just the head w/o tattoos) it doesn't look like they would appear (per text a dead limb still looks like a dead limb). If the T-Man's hide is also included it would have to be attached to the skull, as I don't see a section for hides in WB4 (horns, claws, limbs yes, hide/skin no).

It grants you the magic.
Full stop.
Seriously. It grants you the magic.
The tattoos are the magic.
Ergo it grants you the magic tattoos (temporarily).
Again full stop.
This isn't hard.
Claws are not magic. Wings are not magic. Thus they are not granted.
Things which are not part of the power are not granted as part of the power. Things that are part of the power, always are. That is quite literally how the rules work. Magic is granted, non-magic is not granted.

Again you seem to be insisting that things that are not part of the power are reasons why the power doesn't work.

ShadowLogan wrote:
-if a T-man loses a limb, they obviously lose the tattoos. Text makes it clear that a Bio-System Cyber Limb replacement doesn't cause new tattoos to appear since this is one option to get rid of tattoos for a normal spell caster. Bio-Systems don't interfere with T-man's abilities (T-man OCC can get Bio-System cybernetics that don't interfere with casting, unlike mechanical ones). Further supporting the idea that the tattoos would not just appear due to the link/borrow/possession.

Again this has nothing to do with the Necromancer though and is thus irrelevant.
Apples to kumquats.
Seriously, this is totally completely and utterly irrelevant. (and yet again of another example of what I was talking about)
The tattoo comes back if the arm does. Which means that it is still there 'in potentiality' which means that when you snag that sweet sweet skull and us it... then that the skull 'knows' what magic was available, even if the arm was not present at the time of death the tattoo is still 'inscribed on the soul' so to speak.

ShadowLogan wrote:
Then there is the question if they can actually activate the T-Man's tattoos. A possessing entity can't "borrow" a T-Man's body and activate Tattoo magic because it is keyed to the specific person it was given to, allowing Necromancy to circumvent this ("borrowing" body parts) has other ramifications in dealing with magic keyed to specific individuals. Is a Necromancer who bonds with a Dragon Skull (for example) able to give commands to any Golem/Zombie/Mummie that Dragon created as if they are that person? What if the Dragon had a Sealed Circle that only he/she could enter? What if the Dragon was a Diabolist, is the Necromancer now immune to the dragon's Wards to? I'm sure there are other examples out there.

And yet again you are conflating two different things here.
This is use of the magic of a person (their tattoo magic).
Your continued insistence that this is some how prevented because possessing entities can't use tattoos is absurd. Possessing entities can't cast your spells either and yet with the skull you can this means that flat out this is not at all remotely like possession and thus the limits of possession do not apply in any way, shape or form. Possessing Entities have as much relevance here as the inability of full conversion cyborg Minotaur to get Tattoos. Which is none, so could you please stop bringing them up? They are a red herring and/or straw man and simply make your arguments weaker not stronger.

The reason for this is because the magic is tied to the persons essence, not the body. And the skull gives you that magic what ever it was that the person had as 'their magic' you have it now. Regardless if it was spells, or witchery powers, or granted super abilities... or tattoos. as long as it was a magic power it's fair game. Necromancers are the ultimate "What ever is yours is mine" type people.

It is not like the golems, because it is not keyed the same way. Seriously it is not. It is an enhancement that provides the caster magic powers and not the creation of a separate magic item. It is in many ways no different than an initiation ritual, a witch pact, or one of the several power granting rituals in the game...
Seriously this isn't hard at all, not really.
Where are Tattoos described and what are they described as? Are they listed as magic items or under magic powers?
If they are magic items that are uniquely locked to an individual this would attach. If they are listed as magic powers then this doesn't.
I'll wait while you find an example of Tattoos listed as magic items and not magic powers. :lol:

Spoiler:
They are magic powers granted via a magic ritual.


ShadowLogan wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Sadly that is not the only qualifier.
The cost break applies to anyone who has 7+ tattoos. Ergo having 7+ tattoos gets you the cost break.
Especially since, by canon, getting the 7th tattoo instantly turns a person into a T-man. On the spot. Instantly. No training period needed.

Going by the text in WB2 though this implies there is a training period even if you have less than 7. You couldn't give a Cyber-Knight a magic tattoo (just one) and expect them to instantly be able to use it, they do have to be trained. This is supported by the TA RCC/Race writeup in WB2 (pg16) "All Atlanteans are thought how to use their tattoos.", since all/common TAs have their marks of heritage pair...

Again your arguing with canon.
I get that you may have a house rule here, it may even be a common one... but the canon states that get 7-tattoos, you class change to T-man. There is no canon material about training periods. No canon material about how long it takes to learn to use your tattoos, or even that you have to be taught and that it is not intuitive...
...now if you can provide a canon citation that says otherwise great! Otherwise the canon statement that simply getting 7 tattoos instantly and permanently changes your class on the spot is well sort of, no it is exactly the canon!
And I am sorry... but in a battle over how the RAW work a canon citation vs a house rule the canon citation wins every time.

As for being taught to use their tattoos. It seems to be like psi powers.
You get 'taught' to use those too... but you can also use them if you just get them too... no waiting period needed (at least officially). Likely they may be taught the most effective way to use them... which I will grant. But the idea that they have to be taught how to use them... no canon support and 100% a fanon house rule.

_________________
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


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Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:11 pm
  

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Palladin

Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Posts: 11048
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:
A scrap of skin that they slap onto their body, bond with, and then activate.

The problem is Necromancers don't "Slap it onto their body", their power actually bonds with it and makes it a part of their own body, hence why it's called "Union with the dead" and not "draw power from dead body parts". Which means that once they Unify with it, they'd get slapped with the same no-magic-after-7-tattoos rule, which would either cause the Union with the dead to shut off and the attached body parts fall off, or make them stuck with it unless they physically remove it again.

Don't get me wrong, it's a clever idea! but based on re-reading the actual Union with the dead power, and how it specifically becomes physically and mystically part of the Necromancer i'd say not that you couldn't bond with a T-man's limbs, but that it wouldn't work as a workaround. it's just a way to get a bunch of tattoos quickly and you still loose Necromancer magic until you probablly physically cut off the T-man body part in question.

Unless the body part has 6 or less, in which case, clever thinking!

Why does everyone keep asuming that these tattoos are going to shut off the Union with the Dead?
It Is A Spell with a duration and everything. Tattoos do not do squat to spells and would do nothing to the Union power. It would simply mean that you can't use any other necromancer powers (assuming you use this on yourself and not another) while you have 7+ tattoos.
Now this would raise questions of if you can use the tattoos. I would suspect that this variation of the trick will only work on Humans/Ogres/Elves...
But still. Instant pseudo T-man could be handy in a pinch. And could make for some interesting (if horrific) arena fodder.

Adds keeping T-man limbs around to the icky things about Necromancers in Atlantis
...and yet another horrific abomination for the Re-Animator to be using.

_________________
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


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Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:45 pm
  

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Monk

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Location: 2nd Degree Black Belt of Post Fu
Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
eliakon wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:
A scrap of skin that they slap onto their body, bond with, and then activate.

The problem is Necromancers don't "Slap it onto their body", their power actually bonds with it and makes it a part of their own body, hence why it's called "Union with the dead" and not "draw power from dead body parts". Which means that once they Unify with it, they'd get slapped with the same no-magic-after-7-tattoos rule, which would either cause the Union with the dead to shut off and the attached body parts fall off, or make them stuck with it unless they physically remove it again.

Don't get me wrong, it's a clever idea! but based on re-reading the actual Union with the dead power, and how it specifically becomes physically and mystically part of the Necromancer i'd say not that you couldn't bond with a T-man's limbs, but that it wouldn't work as a workaround. it's just a way to get a bunch of tattoos quickly and you still loose Necromancer magic until you probablly physically cut off the T-man body part in question.

Unless the body part has 6 or less, in which case, clever thinking!

Why does everyone keep asuming that these tattoos are going to shut off the Union with the Dead?
It Is A Spell with a duration and everything. Tattoos do not do squat to spells and would do nothing to the Union power. It would simply mean that you can't use any other necromancer powers (assuming you use this on yourself and not another) while you have 7+ tattoos.
Now this would raise questions of if you can use the tattoos. I would suspect that this variation of the trick will only work on Humans/Ogres/Elves...
But still. Instant pseudo T-man could be handy in a pinch. And could make for some interesting (if horrific) arena fodder.

Adds keeping T-man limbs around to the icky things about Necromancers in Atlantis
...and yet another horrific abomination for the Re-Animator to be using.


I missed the duration, that just means that the appendage will fall off on it's own after the time instead of having to physically remove it. which is good!
I didn't say it'd shut off Union with the dead. I said It'd work. I was just under the mistaken impression it was permanent so the limbs would be permanent unless removed.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2019 12:08 am
  

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Supreme Being

Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2000 2:01 am
Posts: 9940
Location: Communing with the Keepers of the Desert
Comment: This space for rent.
eliakon wrote:
Adds keeping T-man limbs around to the icky things about Necromancers in Atlantis
...and yet another horrific abomination for the Re-Animator to be using.


Now I'm thinking of this:

Necro: I'd like to buy your T-man slave's arm.
Sploogie: Ah, you need a strong warrior for something, eh? I'm sure we can...
Necro: No, not all of him. Just his arm.
Sploogie: Just the arm? Hmm... what will it cost me to grow him another...
T-man: (sigh) Not again.

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It's Rifts. It doesn't have to make sense.
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Unread postPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2019 3:36 pm
  

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Wanderer

Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:07 am
Posts: 66
Location: Varies
Comment: If I could go back in time, I would join the cast of "The Thrilling Adventure Hour"
Mack wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Adds keeping T-man limbs around to the icky things about Necromancers in Atlantis
...and yet another horrific abomination for the Re-Animator to be using.


Now I'm thinking of this:

Necro: I'd like to buy your T-man slave's arm.
Sploogie: Ah, you need a strong warrior for something, eh? I'm sure we can...
Necro: No, not all of him. Just his arm.
Sploogie: Just the arm? Hmm... what will it cost me to grow him another...
T-man: (sigh) Not again.


And a new market is born.

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taalismn wrote:
Hey, you came up with a novel, attention-getting idea, you did the legwork, you worked it through, you made it fit the setting, even though initial thought might be 'nah, it can't work, it's too silly/stupid/lame', and you posted something that only required a little adjustment, yet can be added to, without diluting its original concept. How can we not give you due support and credit?


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