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Unread postPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:15 am
  

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I found the below link today on Chaosium's website and I immediately started thinking about the death of the Rifter and how this method of self-publishing could not only replace it, but how this could be a vast improvement on it in terms of distributing fan-made material. No more having to wait an eternity for supplement books to be published in order to get new material to fuel your games and imaginations. Fans get the new stuff they want, writers get 50% revenue, and Palladium gets 20% revenue plus something even more valuable... ALL of their games that people complain are old and stagnant get reinvigorated and reenergized. All the while, they'll still be able to publish books written by their own staff and freelancers. Talk about a win/win/win. I challenge Palladium to pursue this method and take things to the next level!

Self-publishing guidelines: https://support.drivethrurpg.com/hc/en- ... -Chaosium-

All of this is self-published fan stuff!: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/browse/pub ... Repository

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Unread postPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:04 am
  

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Comment: "Setting the Stage" - Rifter 79
"Hitting the Streets" - Rifter 81
"Hitting the Gym" - Rifter 82
Oh this'd be kewl, I'm for it!

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Unread postPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 10:18 am
  

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I would love to see an OGL where the players/Gms could publish material. So that we may finally see books on Lazlo and the Cs even if third party. I don't think it will happen though.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 11:59 am
  

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Yes this would be very good.
It would grow the game awareness and bring fresh ideas to the game table every where.

One can only hope...

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:56 am
  

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Tick wrote:
Yes this would be very good.
It would grow the game awareness and bring fresh ideas to the game table every where.

One can only hope...


Seconded. Heaven knows the company and its rpgs deserve to get more exposure. It is up to them to create their version of an OGL.

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If it's stupid and it works. It's not stupid

Palladium can't be given a free pass for criticism because people have a lot of emotion invested in it.

Pathfinder is good. It is not the second coming of D&D.

Surshot is absolutely right. (Kevin Seimbeda)

Enlightened Grognard

When I step out of line the mods do their jobs. I don't benefit from some sort of special protection.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:20 pm
  

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Jack Burton wrote:
I found the below link today on Chaosium's website and I immediately started thinking about the death of the Rifter and how this method of self-publishing could not only replace it, but how this could be a vast improvement on it in terms of distributing fan-made material. No more having to wait an eternity for supplement books to be published in order to get new material to fuel your games and imaginations. Fans get the new stuff they want, writers get 50% revenue, and Palladium gets 20% revenue plus something even more valuable... ALL of their games that people complain are old and stagnant get reinvigorated and reenergized. All the while, they'll still be able to publish books written by their own staff and freelancers. Talk about a win/win/win. I challenge Palladium to pursue this method and take things to the next level!

Realistically, this poses a lot of potential legal problems for Palladium Books... or any publisher.

The last thing a publisher wants is independent writers creating new material for its settings without its oversight and creative control. It raises awkward questions of intellectual property ownership for that self-published material, since it'd be using Palladium Books's IP but the author could claim a copyright on the original contributions added to it unless they specifically ceded the rights to all of their new material to Palladium. A lot of fans and freelance writers are going to balk at the idea of having to give up all rights to their work like that, as has been demonstrated by other companies. There's almost no way for them to police the self-published content like that either. Some fans might have the ability to produce work that meets or exceeds Palladium's professional standards, but there are equally many fans who can't or wouldn't bother, which could drive down the perceived quality of the brand. Then, of course, there's the elephant in the room... Palladium fans LOVE to convert stuff to Palladium's system, and at least one of their popular titles which is now an expired license is also a legal minefield. If Palladium is profiting from that self-published material, they're legally liable if the self-published author commits copyright infringement by unlawfully converting something from another game or story Palladium doesn't have the rights to to the Palladium system. That was why they banned conversions in the Robotech and Macross II forum... because the owners of those two properties don't get on, and fans of Palladium's Robotech game love to convert mecha or stories from properties Palladium doesn't have a license to.

Semi-official self-published material sounds like a great idea until you look at it from a business perspective... then it's an absolute nightmare.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:54 pm
  

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:18 am
  

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Seto Kaiba wrote:
Jack Burton wrote:
I found the below link today on Chaosium's website and I immediately started thinking about the death of the Rifter and how this method of self-publishing could not only replace it, but how this could be a vast improvement on it in terms of distributing fan-made material. No more having to wait an eternity for supplement books to be published in order to get new material to fuel your games and imaginations. Fans get the new stuff they want, writers get 50% revenue, and Palladium gets 20% revenue plus something even more valuable... ALL of their games that people complain are old and stagnant get reinvigorated and reenergized. All the while, they'll still be able to publish books written by their own staff and freelancers. Talk about a win/win/win. I challenge Palladium to pursue this method and take things to the next level!

Realistically, this poses a lot of potential legal problems for Palladium Books... or any publisher.

The last thing a publisher wants is independent writers creating new material for its settings without its oversight and creative control. It raises awkward questions of intellectual property ownership for that self-published material, since it'd be using Palladium Books's IP but the author could claim a copyright on the original contributions added to it unless they specifically ceded the rights to all of their new material to Palladium. A lot of fans and freelance writers are going to balk at the idea of having to give up all rights to their work like that, as has been demonstrated by other companies. There's almost no way for them to police the self-published content like that either. Some fans might have the ability to produce work that meets or exceeds Palladium's professional standards, but there are equally many fans who can't or wouldn't bother, which could drive down the perceived quality of the brand. Then, of course, there's the elephant in the room... Palladium fans LOVE to convert stuff to Palladium's system, and at least one of their popular titles which is now an expired license is also a legal minefield. If Palladium is profiting from that self-published material, they're legally liable if the self-published author commits copyright infringement by unlawfully converting something from another game or story Palladium doesn't have the rights to to the Palladium system. That was why they banned conversions in the Robotech and Macross II forum... because the owners of those two properties don't get on, and fans of Palladium's Robotech game love to convert mecha or stories from properties Palladium doesn't have a license to.

Semi-official self-published material sounds like a great idea until you look at it from a business perspective... then it's an absolute nightmare.


You are correct sir.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:36 am
  

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Reagren Wright wrote:
Seto Kaiba wrote:
Jack Burton wrote:
I found the below link today on Chaosium's website and I immediately started thinking about the death of the Rifter and how this method of self-publishing could not only replace it, but how this could be a vast improvement on it in terms of distributing fan-made material. No more having to wait an eternity for supplement books to be published in order to get new material to fuel your games and imaginations. Fans get the new stuff they want, writers get 50% revenue, and Palladium gets 20% revenue plus something even more valuable... ALL of their games that people complain are old and stagnant get reinvigorated and reenergized. All the while, they'll still be able to publish books written by their own staff and freelancers. Talk about a win/win/win. I challenge Palladium to pursue this method and take things to the next level!

Realistically, this poses a lot of potential legal problems for Palladium Books... or any publisher.

The last thing a publisher wants is independent writers creating new material for its settings without its oversight and creative control. It raises awkward questions of intellectual property ownership for that self-published material, since it'd be using Palladium Books's IP but the author could claim a copyright on the original contributions added to it unless they specifically ceded the rights to all of their new material to Palladium. A lot of fans and freelance writers are going to balk at the idea of having to give up all rights to their work like that, as has been demonstrated by other companies. There's almost no way for them to police the self-published content like that either. Some fans might have the ability to produce work that meets or exceeds Palladium's professional standards, but there are equally many fans who can't or wouldn't bother, which could drive down the perceived quality of the brand. Then, of course, there's the elephant in the room... Palladium fans LOVE to convert stuff to Palladium's system, and at least one of their popular titles which is now an expired license is also a legal minefield. If Palladium is profiting from that self-published material, they're legally liable if the self-published author commits copyright infringement by unlawfully converting something from another game or story Palladium doesn't have the rights to to the Palladium system. That was why they banned conversions in the Robotech and Macross II forum... because the owners of those two properties don't get on, and fans of Palladium's Robotech game love to convert mecha or stories from properties Palladium doesn't have a license to.

Semi-official self-published material sounds like a great idea until you look at it from a business perspective... then it's an absolute nightmare.


You are correct sir.

The concept has to work on some level, though, don't you think? If Chaosium does it and Pinnacle has a version of that here (https://www.peginc.com/licensing/), then I would think there's something to it. I just keep thinking about the updated weapons compendium I produced for HU and how it's dead, even after I came up with a substitute to using copyrighted pictures (with zerombr's help). At this point, the only option to get it into people's hands is to put it on Dropbox, post a link to it on the forum, and tell people to have at it. (I shudder to think what commotion that would cause at Palladium, which is why I won't do that)

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:58 am
  

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A simple fix if anyone wants to publish PB third party material they pay PB a yearly fee to do so. The person publishing the material gets to create and make money off their works and PB gets paid for their use of their IP. A win-win for me.

Jack Burton wrote:
The concept has to work on some level, though, don't you think? If Chaosium does it and Pinnacle has a version of that here (https://www.peginc.com/licensing/), then I would think there's something to it. I just keep thinking about the updated weapons compendium I produced for HU and how it's dead, even after I came up with a substitute to using copyrighted pictures (with zerombr's help). At this point, the only option to get it into people's hands is to put it on Dropbox, post a link to it on the forum, and tell people to have at it. (I shudder to think what commotion that would cause at Palladium, which is why I won't do that)


Not surprised at the usual defeatist attitude on the part of some of the fans. It has worked for other rpg companies with no legal issues yet somehow it simply won't work for PB. Trying anything new=bad yet somehow without trying anything new their will be a miraculous turnaround for the company any day now..any day. I could understand if their was an rpg company say like Pinnacle who had issues with other companies and their allowing third party publishing. Paizo has a ton of 3PP material for it and they were doing pretty well with their official content side by side. We have seen and heard nothing of those issues. Instead of having the ability to publish more and give exposure to PB and their rpgs the automatic assumption is that it will fail. We have no proof of that and rpg companies that do allow it have had no issues. Yet somehow it will fail for PB without even having been tried.

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Palladium can't be given a free pass for criticism because people have a lot of emotion invested in it.

Pathfinder is good. It is not the second coming of D&D.

Surshot is absolutely right. (Kevin Seimbeda)

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When I step out of line the mods do their jobs. I don't benefit from some sort of special protection.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:12 am
  

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Jack Burton wrote:
The concept has to work on some level, though, don't you think?

Not really, no... it's a legal nightmare. No sane business would want to indulge in that, because it would make it increasingly difficult to defend their IP from infringement, dilute their trademarks, and generally put them in content-policing liability hell.

It would only work in an environment like Japan, where copyright law is more loosely enforced and self-published material based on copyrighted works is tolerated as long as it's sold in small quantities only.



Jack Burton wrote:
If Chaosium does it and Pinnacle has a version of that here (https://www.peginc.com/licensing/), then I would think there's something to it.

You didn't actually read any of that, did you? Or if you did, I'm guessing you either skimmed it or didn't understand it... because it's NOTHING like what you're talking about.

Pinnacle Entertainment Group offers three (actually two) options, neither of which allows you to self-publish derivative works for profit. The first two are essentially just Fair Use permission to create new content for their existing game lines and share that new content with your fellow fans at no cost... either on your own, or in their private little "SWAG" sandbox. The third - the "Savage Worlds Aces" - is nothing more than buying a commercial license to develop your own all-original game using their system. It explicitly prohibits the "Aces" from using any Pinnacle IP in that for-profit work apart from the Savage Worlds game system, and also bars them from using any material from IPs licensed by Pinnacle (e.g. Rifts, Flash Gordon, etc.).

It is literally the polar opposite of what you're talking about.



Jack Burton wrote:
I just keep thinking about the updated weapons compendium I produced for HU and how it's dead, even after I came up with a substitute to using copyrighted pictures (with zerombr's help). At this point, the only option to get it into people's hands is to put it on Dropbox, post a link to it on the forum, and tell people to have at it. (I shudder to think what commotion that would cause at Palladium, which is why I won't do that)

You're SOL then, eh?

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:14 am
  

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Sureshot wrote:
A simple fix if anyone wants to publish PB third party material they pay PB a yearly fee to do so. The person publishing the material gets to create and make money off their works and PB gets paid for their use of their IP. A win-win for me.

That's called buying a commercial license to an IP... which is generally more expensive than Joe Average can afford, and the company issuing the license also usually exercises editorial authority over what the licensee is publishing (as HG did with Palladium for RT2E).

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Zer0 Kay wrote:
Damn you for anticipating my question. I've really got to unfoe you, your information is far more valuable than my sanity when dealing with your blunt callousness. :)


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:42 am
  

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Seto Kaiba wrote:
Jack Burton wrote:
The concept has to work on some level, though, don't you think?

Not really, no... it's a legal nightmare. No sane business would want to indulge in that, because it would make it increasingly difficult to defend their IP from infringement, dilute their trademarks, and generally put them in content-policing liability hell.

It would only work in an environment like Japan, where copyright law is more loosely enforced and self-published material based on copyrighted works is tolerated as long as it's sold in small quantities only.



Jack Burton wrote:
If Chaosium does it and Pinnacle has a version of that here (https://www.peginc.com/licensing/), then I would think there's something to it.

You didn't actually read any of that, did you? Or if you did, I'm guessing you either skimmed it or didn't understand it... because it's NOTHING like what you're talking about.

Pinnacle Entertainment Group offers three (actually two) options, neither of which allows you to self-publish derivative works for profit. The first two are essentially just Fair Use permission to create new content for their existing game lines and share that new content with your fellow fans at no cost... either on your own, or in their private little "SWAG" sandbox. The third - the "Savage Worlds Aces" - is nothing more than buying a commercial license to develop your own all-original game using their system. It explicitly prohibits the "Aces" from using any Pinnacle IP in that for-profit work apart from the Savage Worlds game system, and also bars them from using any material from IPs licensed by Pinnacle (e.g. Rifts, Flash Gordon, etc.).

It is literally the polar opposite of what you're talking about.



Jack Burton wrote:
I just keep thinking about the updated weapons compendium I produced for HU and how it's dead, even after I came up with a substitute to using copyrighted pictures (with zerombr's help). At this point, the only option to get it into people's hands is to put it on Dropbox, post a link to it on the forum, and tell people to have at it. (I shudder to think what commotion that would cause at Palladium, which is why I won't do that)

You're SOL then, eh?

I don't care about getting paid, so I'm not SOL. Anyone playing in an SDC setting who wants to use a submachinegun newer than a 1950's Uzi or 1960's MP5 would be SOL. Because of that, the option Pinnacle offers for fan-based content to be distributed at no cost would be fine for me. I didn't skim what I read. Forgive me for trying to get new content into your hands.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:20 pm
  

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Knight

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Jack Burton wrote:
I don't care about getting paid, so I'm not SOL. Anyone playing in an SDC setting who wants to use a submachinegun newer than a 1950's Uzi or 1960's MP5 would be SOL.

Why? I don't see anything in the rules here on the forums that prohibits you from posting your own all-original stats, classes, etc.... just stuff converted from - or to - other game systems or IPs.

As long as you aren't posting stuff copied chapter and verse from books published by Palladium as part of it, there doesn't appear to be anything to stop you from posting stats for newer guns right here on the boards.



Jack Burton wrote:
Because of that, the option Pinnacle offers for fan-based content to be distributed at no cost would be fine for me. I didn't skim what I read. Forgive me for trying to get new content into your hands.

You cited it as an example of for-profit fan-made derivative works... so this feels a tad like moving goalposts, but whatever.

I don't really have a stake in this fight, I was just pointing out why no company would do the kind of thing you were suggesting in the topic post.

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Damn you for anticipating my question. I've really got to unfoe you, your information is far more valuable than my sanity when dealing with your blunt callousness. :)


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Unread postPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 1:54 am
  

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It would be awesome, if Palladium ever were to do it. I highly doubt that it will ever happen, but it would be cool, none the less. :)

Chaosium isn't the only one doing it, either. Wizard of the Coast allows for the publishing and selling of material set in the Forgotten Realms 5e setting, via their own DrivethruRPG storefront Dungeon Master's Guild. The pay structure for content creators is similar to Chaosium's.

WotC's announcement from 2016.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:21 pm
  

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Sureshot wrote:
Tick wrote:
Yes this would be very good.
It would grow the game awareness and bring fresh ideas to the game table every where.

One can only hope...


Seconded. Heaven knows the company and its rpgs deserve to get more exposure. It is up to them to create their version of an OGL.


Wizards of the Coast is somehow able to make it work but we have a forum lawyer here telling us why it’s a bad business decision when Palladium’s biggest problem is that they cannot get content out fast enough to actually earn revenue.

I would love something to allow folks to have access to a platform like the DNDGuild or other platforms for Palladium, ideally if we ever get a revision to the rules to make them simpler, better organized, and cleaner.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 6:11 pm
  

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Ulairi wrote:
Seconded. Heaven knows the company and its rpgs deserve to get more exposure. It is up to them to create their version of an OGL.


Wizards of the Coast is somehow able to make it work but we have a forum lawyer here telling us why it’s a bad business decision [...][/quote]
Because what the OP is describing and what these larger publishers are doing with respect to self-publication are two very different things, legally speaking.

The Rifter published supplemental material for the existing Palladium Books game lines that used and/or was built on the existing intellectual property of those game lines. Fan submissions worked for a publication like The Rifter because Palladium Books had complete control over the publication process. They had the luxury of time to review the content of fan-generated materials and reject anything that was offensive, not up to standards, or that might violate copyright prior to publication. Also, since submissions to The Rifter became the property of the publisher, they didn't have to worry about any copyright issues springing up should they decide to run with an idea a fan came up with later on. It's derivative work, but it's owned, published, and controlled by Palladium, so there was not all that much that they didn't permit. (Even then, there were certain titles that were off the table entirely when it came to fan submissions for The Rifter, like Robotech.)

Letting fans self-publish material like what was being done in The Rifter has unique risks associated with it, since that's allowing fans to self-publish material using their intellectual property. Not just using the game system, but using their copyright-able and trademark-able settings, characters, factions, and so on. That can make issues about who owns what parts of a derivative work like that difficult and time-consuming to sort out. You either have to force the fans/freelancers to surrender all rights to their work or run the risk of them suing you for infringement of their copyright on parts of the work they created down the road if you're not very very careful. It also doesn't give Palladium the opportunity to vet fan creations for content or copyright compliance prior to publishing. It can also expose them to legal action should the self-published fan infringe on copyrights. (For an example of this at work, look at how Netflix is now on the hook for the alleged copyright infringement committed by CBS in the Star Trek: Discovery series... they didn't have a role in content creation, but because they profited from it the creator whose work was allegedly infringed upon can sue them as well, and is.)

These limited licenses to self-publish that companies like Chaosium, Pinnacle, and WotC have try to work around most of those legal obstacles by barring licensees who self-publish (for profit or otherwise) from using any of the copyright-able or trademark-able material from their settings except for the game system itself. They don't let you write your own new content using their existing characters, stories, and settings, they just give you permission to use their ruleset to define your own content. They all contain provisos barring the licensee from using materials from various game lines or books, and they all contain attempts to indemnify themselves should you infringe upon any copyrights or trademarks, or do something else dumb like defaming real people or corporations. They also have fairly straightforward warnings that if you DO do something that gets them involved in a lawsuit, they'll promptly revoke your license and sue you breach of its terms. In short, they let you create derivative works based on their game system but not their other intellectual property like game settings, characters, etc. unless those exist in the public domain like large chunks of the Cthulhu mythos do or are sufficiently generic as to not be protected IP. The larger publishers like WotC also have large legal departments to police this stuff and protect the interests of the company.

It sounds like the same thing if you talk about it at a very simple level, but it is completely different... but what do I know, I only deal deal intellectual property law on a regular basis at my day job. :-P



Ulairi wrote:
[...] when Palladium’s biggest problem is that they cannot get content out fast enough to actually earn revenue.

As I understand it, that's more an editorial/managerial process problem than an actual issue with the pace of content creation... eminently fixable, if TPTB could be persuaded to follow some fairly basic process improvement steps. It's just that they have to want to change.

Mind you, I would characterize the massive public relations damage, loss of a key license, losses incurred by stocking unsellable inventory a bigger problem than books being consistently delayed... they'll be reeling from that one for years, possibly for the remainder of the company's existence.



Ulairi wrote:
I would love something to allow folks to have access to a platform like the DNDGuild or other platforms for Palladium, ideally if we ever get a revision to the rules to make them simpler, better organized, and cleaner.

Again, there's nothing really stopping Palladium fans from publishing their own all-original material right here on the boards. They're just death on conversions or anything that could stir up copyright trouble.

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Zer0 Kay wrote:
Damn you for anticipating my question. I've really got to unfoe you, your information is far more valuable than my sanity when dealing with your blunt callousness. :)


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Unread postPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 10:11 pm
  

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Seto Kaiba wrote:
They don't let you write your own new content using their existing characters, stories, and settings, they just give you permission to use their ruleset to define your own content.


The original poster is not talking about an OGL, which is what you are talking about. They are talking about a program similar to WotC's Dungeon Master Guild, which is a distinct, and separate, thing. You can read the full explanation of differences here, but I've cut and pasted the first several paragraphs.

Quote:
The Open Game License and the Dungeon Masters Guild are two distinct and separate things.

Under the DMs Guild program, you can publish D&D material that has no setting or uses the Forgotten Realms, Ravenloft, Eberron or Ravnica settings.

Under the Open Game License, you can typically publish material that has no setting or uses your own original setting.

When you publish material that has no setting, then publishing under the DMs Guild program allows you to use the entire D&D 5th edition rules, not just the subset found in the SRD. It also allows you to sell the material here on the DMsGuild.com marketplace.


EDIT: And here is a list of the rules and setting material you can use under Chaosium's program (from the link the OP provided)

Quote:
What rules can I use in my product for Call of Cthulhu: Miskatonic Repository?

Your work can use any rules and setting materials from the following 7th Edition books and materials published by Chaosium

  • Call of Cthulhu Keeper Rulebook
  • Call of Cthulhu Investigator Handbook
  • Keeper Screen Pack
  • Pulp Cthulhu

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Unread postPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:13 pm
  

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palladiumjunkie wrote:
Seto Kaiba wrote:
They don't let you write your own new content using their existing characters, stories, and settings, they just give you permission to use their ruleset to define your own content.


The original poster is not talking about an OGL, which is what you are talking about. They are talking about a program similar to WotC's Dungeon Master Guild, which is a distinct, and separate, thing. You can read the full explanation of differences here, but I've cut and pasted the first several paragraphs.

As already touched-on once previously, the examples the OP posted aren't like that... the ones which weren't simply reminders that you have fair use permissions under the law still prohibited the use of IP from any of the company's game lines (incl. licensed properties), making them far more like the aforementioned OGL than the WotC DM Guild. Wizards of the Coast stands apart in that they at least permit users of their heavily-policed digital sandbox to use material from a small selection of neglected or underdeveloped WotC IPs,

WotC can pull that off because they're the metaphorical 800lb gorilla thanks to Magic: the Gathering, D&D, and the Pokemon TCG. They have enough of a following that they can afford the cost of policing that sandbox and offset those operating expenses through sales.

I'm not saying that it's flat-out impossible for Palladium to do something along these lines. I'm just saying that the legal issues involved make it an unattractive option for many publishers... especially smaller, cost-conscious ones like Palladium. Lawyers are expensive, and setting up a system like that isn't cheap either in terms of the time, the money, and the manpower needed to create a program like that, to police it, to determine what content their users ought to be allowed to use, to build the resource libraries of art and rules for self-publishers to draw on, to pay for hosting costs, and so on. I'm sure none of us would argue Palladium is short on all three of those fronts already... and they're kind of technophobic if we're being honest.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 7:13 pm
  

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Seto Kaiba wrote:
Jack Burton wrote:
I don't care about getting paid, so I'm not SOL. Anyone playing in an SDC setting who wants to use a submachinegun newer than a 1950's Uzi or 1960's MP5 would be SOL.

Why? I don't see anything in the rules here on the forums that prohibits you from posting your own all-original stats, classes, etc.... just stuff converted from - or to - other game systems or IPs.

As long as you aren't posting stuff copied chapter and verse from books published by Palladium as part of it, there doesn't appear to be anything to stop you from posting stats for newer guns right here on the boards.

Well, you all may see a new small arms weapons compendium posted here then. I just need to edit it so that it doesn't contain the material that I intended to be incorporated into Palladium canon, such as new rules for optics, red dot sights, digital targeting, slings, etc. It'll simply contain photos of the new small arms (well over 300) and each weapon's corresponding stats.

When we spoke at the last Open House, Kevin pointed out that I had used copyrighted photos for each weapon. Of course he was right to have misgivings about publishing those. Palladium can't publish someone else's copyrighted photo. But he said he didn't want to draw new weapons. That's understandable. I then offered to use a piece of software called GIMP that allows me to basically add a layer on top of an existing photo of a weapon and trace it on the computer. Once I'm done, the layer containing the photo is discarded and what I'm left with is my tracing. In other words, a completely new and original piece of art is left over. Not one bit of it would've been a remnant of the copyrighted photo. I offered this solution, but Kevin never responded to my multiple emails with a yes or no. I'm going to take that as him not being interested. No hard feelings... I get that Palladium has other priorities. It would've just been nice to get an answer.

Here's a sample of what's to come. The top is obviously the photo and the bottom is the original art I created. Like I said, I'll end up distributing it with the photos. It's free fan content, so why go to all the trouble of making those drawings when it'll never be published and sold? Unless I'm missing something...

https://www.dropbox.com/s/60n8ft26fztaj ... n.jpg?dl=0

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Unread postPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 9:53 pm
  

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Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Sat Jan 31, 2015 9:02 pm
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Jack Burton wrote:
Seto Kaiba wrote:
Jack Burton wrote:
I don't care about getting paid, so I'm not SOL. Anyone playing in an SDC setting who wants to use a submachinegun newer than a 1950's Uzi or 1960's MP5 would be SOL.

Why? I don't see anything in the rules here on the forums that prohibits you from posting your own all-original stats, classes, etc.... just stuff converted from - or to - other game systems or IPs.

As long as you aren't posting stuff copied chapter and verse from books published by Palladium as part of it, there doesn't appear to be anything to stop you from posting stats for newer guns right here on the boards.

Well, you all may see a new small arms weapons compendium posted here then. I just need to edit it so that it doesn't contain the material that I intended to be incorporated into Palladium canon, such as new rules for optics, red dot sights, digital targeting, slings, etc. It'll simply contain photos of the new small arms (well over 300) and each weapon's corresponding stats.

When we spoke at the last Open House, Kevin pointed out that I had used copyrighted photos for each weapon. Of course he was right to have misgivings about publishing those. Palladium can't publish someone else's copyrighted photo. But he said he didn't want to draw new weapons. That's understandable. I then offered to use a piece of software called GIMP that allows me to basically add a layer on top of an existing photo of a weapon and trace it on the computer. Once I'm done, the layer containing the photo is discarded and what I'm left with is my tracing. In other words, a completely new and original piece of art is left over. Not one bit of it would've been a remnant of the copyrighted photo. I offered this solution, but Kevin never responded to my multiple emails with a yes or no. I'm going to take that as him not being interested. No hard feelings... I get that Palladium has other priorities. It would've just been nice to get an answer.

Here's a sample of what's to come. The top is obviously the photo and the bottom is the original art I created. Like I said, I'll end up distributing it with the photos. It's free fan content, so why go to all the trouble of making those drawings when it'll never be published and sold? Unless I'm missing something...

https://www.dropbox.com/s/60n8ft26fztaj ... n.jpg?dl=0


Dang, I gotta say, it might be a lot of work to do but that line art recreation really adds a flavor that spices it up for me personally. If this sample is a taste of what we might see I would love to see it finished.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 7:52 am
  

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:43 am
  

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Knight

Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 2:01 am
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I'm not an expert, but tracing has its limits when you are trying to stay legal. My read is ok for a fan book, but probably not ok for anything with a profit. Just my 2 cents.

A good explanation of tracing, and how it relates to protected images and fair use.
https://theartistsjd.com/trace-source-imagery/

and a quick excerpt:

"When tracing probably isn’t legit
Exactly duplicating source imagery probably isn’t legit. (For example, making a photorealistic drawing of a photograph without making any changes.) This would be misappropriation. And likely isn’t fair use even if it was for non-commercial use because there’s no transformation and you remove the possibility of the photographer licensing his photograph for that purpose."

For what it is worth I would love to see an official update to the Modern Weapons book. As it is now I lean on certain websites, and make up my own stats when needed.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:41 am
  

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RockJock wrote:
I'm not an expert, but tracing has its limits when you are trying to stay legal. My read is ok for a fan book, but probably not ok for anything with a profit. Just my 2 cents.

A good explanation of tracing, and how it relates to protected images and fair use.
https://theartistsjd.com/trace-source-imagery/

and a quick excerpt:

"When tracing probably isn’t legit
Exactly duplicating source imagery probably isn’t legit. (For example, making a photorealistic drawing of a photograph without making any changes.) This would be misappropriation. And likely isn’t fair use even if it was for non-commercial use because there’s no transformation and you remove the possibility of the photographer licensing his photograph for that purpose."

For what it is worth I would love to see an official update to the Modern Weapons book. As it is now I lean on certain websites, and make up my own stats when needed.

I don't know... I read that and it still didn't definitively answer the underlying question. I believe it would be fine because it's such a rudimentary depiction of the actual photograph. Honestly though, my opinion is meaningless. It's a moot point since after a flurry of communication about this, all of the sudden I can't even get a simple email telling me that Palladium isn't interested, which if that's the case, is perfectly fine. I sincerely appreciate you sharing that, RockJock. Give me some time and I'll share what I have so far. It's a decent source.

Sort of related side note:
At my place of employment, I've had the displeasure of having to call the "company" attorney on several occasions to get clarification or guidance on various issues before being able to move forward. Whenever I did, I either regretted it (if making the call was my idea) or cursed my boss (if making the call was his idea). Why? Because the answer was ALWAYS a non-answer. :frust:

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:25 pm
  

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Knight

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Legalese at it's finest is no answer lol.

See, I read it as your GIMP tracing being basically the photorealistic drawing, and you remove the chance for the photog to sell his photo, so you are "profiting".

I love PB, and my dealings with the TPTB has been positive I have heard similar issues to you from various sources over the years. I hope you can work out a way to share with the community even if your work doesn't make it into official print.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:29 pm
  

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RockJock wrote:
Legalese at it's finest is no answer lol.

See, I read it as your GIMP tracing being basically the photorealistic drawing, and you remove the chance for the photog to sell his photo, so you are "profiting".

I love PB, and my dealings with the TPTB has been positive I have heard similar issues to you from various sources over the years. I hope you can work out a way to share with the community even if your work doesn't make it into official print.

I'm actually at the table right now working on it... adding kilograms, centimeters and meters for our metric friends!

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 1:08 am
  

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Seto Kaiba wrote:
Jack Burton wrote:
Because of that, the option Pinnacle offers for fan-based content to be distributed at no cost would be fine for me. I didn't skim what I read. Forgive me for trying to get new content into your hands.

You cited it as an example of for-profit fan-made derivative works... so this feels a tad like moving goalposts, but whatever.

I don't really have a stake in this fight, I was just pointing out why no company would do the kind of thing you were suggesting in the topic post.

No he didn't Sureshot brought up making money off of it.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 1:21 am
  

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Monk

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RockJock wrote:
I'm not an expert, but tracing has its limits when you are trying to stay legal. My read is ok for a fan book, but probably not ok for anything with a profit. Just my 2 cents.

A good explanation of tracing, and how it relates to protected images and fair use.
https://theartistsjd.com/trace-source-imagery/

and a quick excerpt:

"When tracing probably isn’t legit
Exactly duplicating source imagery probably isn’t legit. (For example, making a photorealistic drawing of a photograph without making any changes.) This would be misappropriation. And likely isn’t fair use even if it was for non-commercial use because there’s no transformation and you remove the possibility of the photographer licensing his photograph for that purpose."

For what it is worth I would love to see an official update to the Modern Weapons book. As it is now I lean on certain websites, and make up my own stats when needed.


Tracing is not producing a photorealistic anything and as long as he doesn't include trademarks in the image then the image can't be trademarked as a weapon isn't trademarked on it's shape as recognizable as it may be. That is how video games, airsoft and paintball are able to get by producing unlicensed replicas. One thing JB may want to be wary of though is using the names H&K is trade marked as are some of the firearm names; military designators however, are not so while he shouldn't use Armalite AR-15 (btw IIRC AR-15 can be used because the courts deemed it too ubiquitous) he is totally free to use U.S. M-16.

Also it may be argued that it is fair use as statting it compares it to others and therefore could be considered a commentary.

Also one of the rules for copyright and trademark when determining if it is infringement is if the reproduction takes profit from the owner of the original work. Most of JB's pieces are from the arms manufacturer as such proliferating the image adds to the company's profit as they are not in the business of selling weapon portraits but their weapons and popular weapons sell.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:22 am
  

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:27 am
  

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In regards to your "tracing"?

While the method is a trace almost anyone could potentially hand draw the same image and it would look near identical to what you did.

While the individual photo itself may be copyrighted it is HIGHLY unlikely general imagery of the weapon in such a side image manner would be considered copyright infringement.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 12:28 am
  

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Knight

Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 2:01 am
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My point with my posts was I can see why PB decided that the tracing solution wasn't going to work for them. It would have been nice to have gotten a yes/no for TPTB.

Zero, I wasn't talking trademarks, just copy.

I have only seen one single example of the original artwork, and have no clue where it came from originally. Assuming it was from H&K in this case there are plenty of reasons why a gun manufacturer doesn't want their photos(assuming they were originally from their catalog or whatever) being reproduced outside their control. It is the gun company's call as the owner, or the photographer's, depending on the type of contract made for the original pictures. I agree that most companies aren't going to go after a game publisher for copying images, but they would have the right to sue based on derivative work.

Assume I took the original photos of 100 guns, and you are converting them to Gimps and using in a book you publish. You are making a choice not to license/buy the use of my images, and are using your own "free" copy which saves you money, and drops the price of the book. That is taking money away from me as the image owner is it not?

If the original photo was public domain you are fire using the GIMP tracing or using the picture, but being available doesn't mean it is public domain.

If you are doing this as a free product your chances of having no problems are much higher. If it is a free product it will most likely fall under fair use. Selling it as saying I used this photo, didn't want to pay for it so I traced it is a different story. You can always get permission from the owners as well and remove any of the issues.

Heck, go to a gun show and ask booths if you can take photos yourself.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 5:59 am
  

Palladin

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fair use doesn't say anything about free stuff last i checked. it talks about purposes that you can use it for, and nowhere is there a listing of creating derivative works that are distributed but not sold.

criticism and parody are examples of fair use. in most countries that have it, fair use extends to research and education purposes within limits as well.

so for example, you might be OK to use those pictures if you were teaching a photography class as examples if they display a certain technique. or potentially if you were some sort of gun critic reviewing the gun.

what really protects most fan-based use is scale. it's unlikely to come to the attention of the copyright owner, and even if it does, so long as they can plausibly say they didn't they'll probably ignore it because they're not gonna realistically make any money out of it and a something a handful of people will ever see is unlikely to meaningfully erode their copyright claim. and not only is it unlikely to earn them money, it will probably earn them enemies to go after someone. but just to be clear, that's not protection under the law. it's kinda like jaywalking. it isn't legal, but if you do it on when there's no traffic, you're not likely to get into trouble because there are more important things for the police to do than go after someone for jaywalking. it isn't that you *can't* be prosecuted for using copyrighted images when making that book, it's that H&K isn't about to send their legal team to track down randomdude mcinternetguy about that PDF he distributed to 50 people without some compelling reason, even if by some random chance they actually do manage to come across that PDF.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:15 pm
  

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Monk

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RockJock wrote:
My point with my posts was I can see why PB decided that the tracing solution wasn't going to work for them. It would have been nice to have gotten a yes/no for TPTB.

Zero, I wasn't talking trademarks, just copy.


I have only seen one single example of the original artwork, and have no clue where it came from originally. Assuming it was from H&K in this case there are plenty of reasons why a gun manufacturer doesn't want their photos(assuming they were originally from their catalog or whatever) being reproduced outside their control. It is the gun company's call as the owner, or the photographer's, depending on the type of contract made for the original pictures. I agree that most companies aren't going to go after a game publisher for copying images, but they would have the right to sue based on derivative work.

Assume I took the original photos of 100 guns, and you are converting them to Gimps and using in a book you publish. You are making a choice not to license/buy the use of my images, and are using your own "free" copy which saves you money, and drops the price of the book. That is taking money away from me as the image owner is it not?

If the original photo was public domain you are fire using the GIMP tracing or using the picture, but being available doesn't mean it is public domain.

If you are doing this as a free product your chances of having no problems are much higher. If it is a free product it will most likely fall under fair use. Selling it as saying I used this photo, didn't want to pay for it so I traced it is a different story. You can always get permission from the owners as well and remove any of the issues.

Heck, go to a gun show and ask booths if you can take photos yourself.


The originals are not public domain. Most arms companies either have internal photographers making the pictures theirs or purchase the rights from the photographer. Can you name one reason an arms company wouldn't want their photo distributed if 1. it is good press and 2. doesn't hurt their bottom line since they aren't in the business of selling pictures? Fair use isn't fair use if it hurts the companies bottom line. Getting permission from the owners would take more time than tracing the photos. A trace on its own and maybe reversing the image would be the "three changes" medium, style, image design (design as flipping the image suddenly turns a weapon with an ejection port on the right to one on the left which may not exist.)

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Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:42 pm
  

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Knight

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I would just suggest talking to a lawyer before you use somebody else's creation as the basis of your published. I'm done. I hope you figure out a way to share with the community.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:28 pm
  

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And attitudes like that are why there are so few palladium fan sites left.


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