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Unread postPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 6:53 pm
  

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jaymz wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:

With the movie rights, the agreement for Savage Rifts and the settlement for when Trion tried stealing his IP he may not be able to allow this.

I hope he allows it if he can but ultimately a fanzine is going to be more hit or miss than the Rifter ever was so not sure how big an audience it will get. I mean all the complaints above would have to apply to the fanzine and if you make it to your liking it will annoy people who liked the Rifter.


Let us get one thing straight Trion never stole his IP. It was a question of similarity in name (their game was just called Rift) much like the ridiculousness that was McFarlane threatening to sue over the name of Nightspawn. Trion threw a token sum of money for Kevin to go away. They never really changed the name of their game after the "settlement". In fact if anything the slightly tweaked name (Rift: Planes of Telara) played up the "multidimensional" aspect to a higher degree.

I should have been more specific and said stolen his copyright not his IP but my statement stands. For several years after that came out I would always have a few gamers at each con who would come to my games expecting a pen and paper version of the video game. Brand confusion is a big problem for an IP especially for ones in niche markets. If Trion had been successful in their legal strategy PB would have lost the Copyright or trademark (I forget which applies outright and that would have been it for Rifts. The problem is if you have a lot money you can protect these easily and if you don't you can't. If it really is no big deal why don't you come out with a new sci fi setting called Star War, just drop the S like Trion did and see what happens.

jaymz wrote:
I won't get into how those licenses are highly unlikely to be garnering as much money as some seem to think.

I never said they made any money. Kevin let slip to a few of us at the 3rd POH what the movie rights were bringing in so I know that's not much and I have met Sean and the rest of the Savage Worlds people at 2 different cons now so I am almost certain that isn't too lucrative. What I said is we do not know the restrictions on these deals. The Rifts License isn't going to be worth anything to SW if they can turn around and allow everyone to create their own version of Rifts.

On the other hand these are both small companies in a small market so maybe there are no restrictions at all. What I said is we don't know. The example of the Star Frontiers fanzine that was closed down by WotC (I only have this secondhand so not for what it's worth) because they were trying to do a licensing agreement and the fanzine was problem.

jaymz wrote:
Lastly, those above are not wrong in saying fan material can and is protected under "fair use" as long as Palladium's own internet policy is followed and no official published copyrighted material is used.

Agreed, like I said there are already tons of sites already that they don't care about so can't imagine it is an issue. I still think it would be a good idea to reach out to PB if you want to do a proper fanzine instead of just a website.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:11 pm
  

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jaymz wrote:
Lastly, those above are not wrong in saying fan material can and is protected under "fair use" as long as Palladium's own internet policy is followed and no official published copyrighted material is used.

Greetings and Salutations. While I quote Jaymz a couple of times, this is not directed solely at him and mostly a coincidence. For those curious, here is a link to Palladium's Internet Policy:

http://www.palladiumbooks.com/index.php ... ssion-info

I can see one potential issue with such a fan-zine:

Quote:
In addition, Palladium grants you a revocable, non-exclusive "limited license" to create and use works which are derivative of Palladium copyrighted text, so long as the resulting "derivative works" are used only on the Internet and other online services, for personal fun and limited use, and NOT for mass distribution or financial gain in any way (including the sale of downloadable material, subscriptions to the website, sale of turns in turn-based games, online advertising, play-by-mail, and so on).

What does Palladium consider "mass distribution"? This is separate from financial gain. I'm genuinely not sure how this applies to an internet policy, but if the fan-zine is being designed with (effectively) distributing it to the fans, this could come up.

Setting that aside, one thing I'd like to state is that if such a fan-zine does happen, that the name "Rifter" should be avoided. While using that title may seem natural to some, using that title (or derivative of) I'd suspect would greatly raise the chances of resistance by Palladium. Which will bring me to ...

jaymz wrote:
So the question remains....magazine or website where articles are listed, with all proper web policy items covered, and articles as individual pdfs?

The website would probably be the smoothest, in my opinion. This would (in my opinion) have the least resistance from Palladium, could allow anyone to have their submissions posted and let the readers judge the quality or worth. Some type of system for top voted articles to be placed towards the top (or in its own section) would be nice for those who don't want to sift through everything. Editors would likely still be needed for purposes of profanity (or otherwise inappropriate content), not allowing conversions, etc.

Just my thoughts on that matter. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

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Rifter #45; Of Bows & Arrows (Archery; expanding rules and abilities)
Rifter #52; From Ruins to Runes (Living Rune Weapons; playable characters and NPC)
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Official PDF versions of Rifter #45, #52, and #55 can be found at DriveThruRPG.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:33 pm
  

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Boiled down, if you don't make money from it derivative work is perfectly legal.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 8:04 pm
  

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Warshield73 wrote:
jaymz wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:

With the movie rights, the agreement for Savage Rifts and the settlement for when Trion tried stealing his IP he may not be able to allow this.

I hope he allows it if he can but ultimately a fanzine is going to be more hit or miss than the Rifter ever was so not sure how big an audience it will get. I mean all the complaints above would have to apply to the fanzine and if you make it to your liking it will annoy people who liked the Rifter.


Let us get one thing straight Trion never stole his IP. It was a question of similarity in name (their game was just called Rift) much like the ridiculousness that was McFarlane threatening to sue over the name of Nightspawn. Trion threw a token sum of money for Kevin to go away. They never really changed the name of their game after the "settlement". In fact if anything the slightly tweaked name (Rift: Planes of Telara) played up the "multidimensional" aspect to a higher degree.

I should have been more specific and said stolen his copyright not his IP but my statement stands. For several years after that came out I would always have a few gamers at each con who would come to my games expecting a pen and paper version of the video game. Brand confusion is a big problem for an IP especially for ones in niche markets. If Trion had been successful in their legal strategy PB would have lost the Copyright or trademark (I forget which applies outright and that would have been it for Rifts. The problem is if you have a lot money you can protect these easily and if you don't you can't. If it really is no big deal why don't you come out with a new sci fi setting called Star War, just drop the S like Trion did and see what happens.

jaymz wrote:
I won't get into how those licenses are highly unlikely to be garnering as much money as some seem to think.

I never said they made any money. Kevin let slip to a few of us at the 3rd POH what the movie rights were bringing in so I know that's not much and I have met Sean and the rest of the Savage Worlds people at 2 different cons now so I am almost certain that isn't too lucrative. What I said is we do not know the restrictions on these deals. The Rifts License isn't going to be worth anything to SW if they can turn around and allow everyone to create their own version of Rifts.

On the other hand these are both small companies in a small market so maybe there are no restrictions at all. What I said is we don't know. The example of the Star Frontiers fanzine that was closed down by WotC (I only have this secondhand so not for what it's worth) because they were trying to do a licensing agreement and the fanzine was problem.

jaymz wrote:
Lastly, those above are not wrong in saying fan material can and is protected under "fair use" as long as Palladium's own internet policy is followed and no official published copyrighted material is used.

Agreed, like I said there are already tons of sites already that they don't care about so can't imagine it is an issue. I still think it would be a good idea to reach out to PB if you want to do a proper fanzine instead of just a website.



1 - Trion did-not-steal-anything. Not IP. Not Copyright. Hell not even trademark which is what Palladium was arguing. Settlement was a small sum to shut Kevin up because it was the easiest and most expedient way to get rid of the law suit. Thus they did not even change the name in any real way going so far as to double down on the the multi layered world aspect of the game in the slightly altered title.

2 - Considering your statement was directed in response to the being sued it can very much be taken as insinuating that those three items mean they have resources to go after people. if that is not what you are insinuating then it is on you to be more clear.

3 - I posed a number of questions that would be potential hurdles or an act of good faith (reaching to PB directly) and was almost immediately responded with essentially "eh none of that really matters so it'l be fine" *shrug*

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Unread postPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 11:49 am
  

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jaymz wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
jaymz wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:

With the movie rights, the agreement for Savage Rifts and the settlement for when Trion tried stealing his IP he may not be able to allow this.

I hope he allows it if he can but ultimately a fanzine is going to be more hit or miss than the Rifter ever was so not sure how big an audience it will get. I mean all the complaints above would have to apply to the fanzine and if you make it to your liking it will annoy people who liked the Rifter.


Let us get one thing straight Trion never stole his IP. It was a question of similarity in name (their game was just called Rift) much like the ridiculousness that was McFarlane threatening to sue over the name of Nightspawn. Trion threw a token sum of money for Kevin to go away. They never really changed the name of their game after the "settlement". In fact if anything the slightly tweaked name (Rift: Planes of Telara) played up the "multidimensional" aspect to a higher degree.

I should have been more specific and said stolen his copyright not his IP but my statement stands. For several years after that came out I would always have a few gamers at each con who would come to my games expecting a pen and paper version of the video game. Brand confusion is a big problem for an IP especially for ones in niche markets. If Trion had been successful in their legal strategy PB would have lost the Copyright or trademark (I forget which applies outright and that would have been it for Rifts. The problem is if you have a lot money you can protect these easily and if you don't you can't. If it really is no big deal why don't you come out with a new sci fi setting called Star War, just drop the S like Trion did and see what happens.

jaymz wrote:
I won't get into how those licenses are highly unlikely to be garnering as much money as some seem to think.

I never said they made any money. Kevin let slip to a few of us at the 3rd POH what the movie rights were bringing in so I know that's not much and I have met Sean and the rest of the Savage Worlds people at 2 different cons now so I am almost certain that isn't too lucrative. What I said is we do not know the restrictions on these deals. The Rifts License isn't going to be worth anything to SW if they can turn around and allow everyone to create their own version of Rifts.

On the other hand these are both small companies in a small market so maybe there are no restrictions at all. What I said is we don't know. The example of the Star Frontiers fanzine that was closed down by WotC (I only have this secondhand so not for what it's worth) because they were trying to do a licensing agreement and the fanzine was problem.

jaymz wrote:
Lastly, those above are not wrong in saying fan material can and is protected under "fair use" as long as Palladium's own internet policy is followed and no official published copyrighted material is used.

Agreed, like I said there are already tons of sites already that they don't care about so can't imagine it is an issue. I still think it would be a good idea to reach out to PB if you want to do a proper fanzine instead of just a website.



1 - Trion did-not-steal-anything. Not IP. Not Copyright. Hell not even trademark which is what Palladium was arguing. Settlement was a small sum to shut Kevin up because it was the easiest and most expedient way to get rid of the law suit. Thus they did not even change the name in any real way going so far as to double down on the the multi layered world aspect of the game in the slightly altered title.

2 - Considering your statement was directed in response to the being sued it can very much be taken as insinuating that those three items mean they have resources to go after people. if that is not what you are insinuating then it is on you to be more clear.

3 - I posed a number of questions that would be potential hurdles or an act of good faith (reaching to PB directly) and was almost immediately responded with essentially "eh none of that really matters so it'l be fine" *shrug*



I'm with Jaymz Trion did not take steal anything. The whole lawsuit which I considered and still consider frivolous on the part of PB essentially boiled down to PB calling their fanbase dumb because we would be too dumb. To recognize the difference between PB Rifts and Trion version. Which quite frankly is insulting. They are lucky Trion were good people because anyone else could have bankrupted the company. So they lucked out. Many people don't like being taken to court and want to retaliate in some way no matter how petty it makes them look like.

As for Trion "stealing" anything the Cyberknights in Rifts look much like a popular franchise of good guys wielding laser swords. Should he know come after PB for borrowing something from his movies.

Take a look at this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhAobPugvsk should the creator of the cartoon now go after PB.

Beyond maybe 2-3 players I have never run into any major group of gamers new or older who suffered from brand confusion. Most gamers do their researc

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Unread postPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 6:16 pm
  

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Don't get me started one a number of pieces Kevin Long did that were "inspired" by a couple of anime from the late 80s.....

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Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 10:25 am
  

D-Bee

Joined: Fri May 04, 2018 8:39 pm
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First off, I would like to say that I by no means intended to start a right proper donnybrook with my legality question. I apologise for that.
Secondly, I am with you Sureshot. I love Thundarr and can see a lot if Rifts in there. So much so that I am in the beginning stages of making it into an SDC setting for Rifts.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 3:01 am
  

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Sureshot wrote:
I'm with Jaymz Trion did not take steal anything. The whole lawsuit which I considered and still consider frivolous on the part of PB essentially boiled down to PB calling their fanbase dumb because we would be too dumb. To recognize the difference between PB Rifts and Trion version. Which quite frankly is insulting. They are lucky Trion were good people because anyone else could have bankrupted the company. So they lucked out. Many people don't like being taken to court and want to retaliate in some way no matter how petty it makes them look like.

This is ridiculous on every level. There is no company that wants to stay in existence that wouldn't sue over the violation of there trademarks or copyrights.

First, you are not calling your fan base dumb by wanting to avoid brand confusion, everybody does this. That is actually the entire point of Trademarks. Again if it is no big deal create a new sci fi franchise called Star War, drop the 's' I'm sure it will be just fine.

Second you are kind of proving my point from earlier. Trion did this because they new PB could not defend themselves for lack of resources/money. They would never have done this to a major company which could match them dollar for dollar.

Sureshot wrote:
As for Trion "stealing" anything the Cyberknights in Rifts look much like a popular franchise of good guys wielding laser swords. Should he know come after PB for borrowing something from his movies.

Take a look at this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhAobPugvsk should the creator of the cartoon now go after PB.

Given the number of movies that the creator of that popular franchise admitted to barrowing from, and some of which he paid, that would have been interesting. Besides not only would he have your Thundarr example but don't forget Starchaser . That was an almost direct rip off and neither of those, as far as I know, where ever sued because they avoided all copyright and trademarks.

This popular franchise also sued over the use of the word Droid I will remind you so if they thought it was worth it to sue over Cyber-Knights, you can bet they would have.

Just to clarify, I was also OK with McFarlane making PB change the Nightbspawn to Nightbane. Not only was the name too close but the genre was just close enough.

Sureshot wrote:
Beyond maybe 2-3 players I have never run into any major group of gamers new or older who suffered from brand confusion. Most gamers do their researc

Before they play a game sure but at conventions most players just sign up based on titles. Now like I said I only encountered this problem in the first year or two after the lawsuit but I only run at maybe two cons a year so you have to figure it happened more. Also, there were people on the Kickstarter page that thought PB was getting money from this game so the brand confusion was there.

The simple fact is this does reduce the value of PB's IP. If someone created an outstanding Rifts video game now that everyone wanted to carry would they want to call it Rifts? How about a movie? I don't know but I know it would be a lot easier if Trion had just used another name.

DM Jimbo wrote:
First off, I would like to say that I by no means intended to start a right proper donnybrook with my legality question. I apologise for that.
Secondly, I am with you Sureshot. I love Thundarr and can see a lot if Rifts in there. So much so that I am in the beginning stages of making it into an SDC setting for Rifts.


First this is my fault not yours, I clearly triggered some people with my blunt language.

Second I loved Thundarr as a kid but I never saw the comparison to Rifts myself. I saw Thundarr in other games I played but with half my players in power armor or Giant Robots and only two ever on horses I just never saw the comparison.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 3:19 am
  

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Forgot this. If KS and PB were suing over the concept of rifts i.e. portals in space and time, which since they never sued Dragon Age for theirs and some of them looked like they were right out of the RMB, then I would be right there with you. It was having a game with a similar premise and giving it the exact same title.

If KS every tried suing something like Dragon Age I would totally be with you and saying it is frivolous and ridiculous.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:17 am
  

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Knight

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Comment: They Saved Sureshot's Brain!
Warshield73 wrote:
Forgot this. If KS and PB were suing over the concept of rifts i.e. portals in space and time, which since they never sued Dragon Age for theirs and some of them looked like they were right out of the RMB, then I would be right there with you. It was having a game with a similar premise and giving it the exact same title.

If KS every tried suing something like Dragon Age I would totally be with you and saying it is frivolous and ridiculous.


We had a disagreement and I'm not sure if either of us will see eye to eye on the subject and that is okay. People don't have to agree with each other all the time during a discussion and it makes it interesting as well.

I do not think they will sue anyone else unless they have too imo. It takes money and the company the go to court with may try to bury them out of retaliation.

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Palladium can't be given a free pass for criticism because people have a lot of emotion invested in it.

Pathfinder is good. It is not the second coming of D&D.

Surshot is absolutely right. (Kevin Seimbeda)

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:02 am
  

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D-Bee

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Financial and legal discussions aside for one moment...as someone who was pretty gutted to hear of the hiatus but understood it from a business perspective I'm kind torn. I am a Beyond the Supernatural addict...so decade long delayed books seeing the light of day makes me super-duper happy...but the quality of the last few Rifters really felt like a stride was being hit.

Anyhoo...one tuppence I'd love to add to the discussions of a fan-run, editorialised and slick Not-Rifter (even executively endorsed versions) would be print-on-demand option...I'm sure this is a topic elsewhere and is probably absolute anathema to Palladium's model but I ran something similar for some niche publications in the last few years and they proved reasonably successful. They plugged an editorial and fan engagement role that small creative and publishing teams just could not achieve. There are myriad pitfalls obviously, as you've all dioscussed, but just thought I'd throw it into the mix should things move in that direction.

Personally I'll miss the Rifter, simple as that.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 3:34 pm
  

Wanderer

Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:33 am
Posts: 55
To comment on a few comments made regarding fair use.

While the area is gray, and usually each case is tested on its own merits,
In general, so far fan content is not considered to be covered by fair use, and likely won’t be(although one never knows what may change in the future).

And no, the fact that money is not being gained is not a defense to fair use.

All the fan stuff out there is by the good graces of the copyright holders of the source material...and it is not likely worth their time to chase it all down.

This is not meant to dissuade anyone from working on fan content and a rifter type fanzine. Just be aware that it is in the good graces of palladium as the copyright holder to allow it to be published.

And by publish I really mean distribute. Email...blog post, forum post, lulu.


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