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The thing is one of the reasons D&D became so popular again with 3E is that they addressed many of the problems with their rules. It brought myself and others back into the fold because they fixed not all but some of the problems the game had. I saw that Wotc was willing to take a risk and I can respect that. PB want to reverse ther trends of them losing market share yet not alter anything. It unforuntaerly does not work like that.

As for wording my posts differently as my sig says Palladium can't be given a free pass for criticism because people have a lot of emotion invested in it. I stand by that.

Damian's opinion has been the same all along and kudos to him for keeping a level head and sticking by his beliefs. The Cabal of 24 constantly complains about this and that. Is the system perfect? No, but none are. You can nit pick any any system to the same extent the 24 has and expose flaws in every gaming system. You know there are game system I don't like and in those game systems rules i think are wrong, but I don't go to those "fan forums" to tell them what a crappy system they are playing. Oh your system is so bad that I can't even get my gamers to play it. BTW people are leaving the system in droves and I just happen to know this because I can't get my four other gamers to play it. Yep I know better than the owners of the company. Geez why can't they see it

The 24 can't even keep on the topic of just discussing rules. Instead they complain about Palladiums business practices and business decisions. You're not happy with the way Palladium does things? REALLY? Not happy with the decision that are made at the top? REALLY? Well I'm glad you have all the answers. Thanks for sharing your wisdom. To bad that wisdom is pretty much armchair quarterbacking and you don't have any facts to back up your wisdom. Are you entitled to your opinions, absolutely, but so are the rest of us.

Last comment referring to the section in blue above. Criticism and changes should be expected by every writer. This helps writers grow. If you become complacent and think they know it all then you got another thing coming. Furthermore making a book into a commercially viable product is something Kevin and crew know how to do. To think any of the freelancers (former and current, yes me included) knows better is laughable. Groan and complain all you want, but here is where customers can voice their complaints. The forums are for fans thanks for making it a fun place for us

My apologies to anyone offended. My opinions are my own and not that of Palladium Books. Feel free to voice your complaints about my post directly to the Palladium staff if you wish. While you're doing that you can tell them everything else they're doing wrong. I'm sure they'd love to hear it.

Hasn't Palladium itself talked about sales not being what they used to be? Hell wouldn't that follow if they're having to lay people off now when before they could afford to keep them?


Daniel Stoker

Laying people off now? Like who? Nobody's being laid off.

The wild speculations about sales means that we didn't ship boxes of the Rifter to our distributors last Friday or to subscribers or to those who pre-ordered that individual issue. Times are tough right now across the board. I spoke with our buyer at our largest distributor just last week and the economy is affecting sales for everyone. We also have distributors in Canada, Germany, England and Australia. For those who don't live in those countries and who only see what's going on in their neck of the woods in the United States, it's a limited view.



Alex Marciniszyn

You didn't read what I was responding to, did you? "...lay people off now..." The key word was "now." Not last year.

And sales are down for everybody.







Alex Marciniszyn

Now meant recently, I'm sorry I wasn't specific enough with my time frame for you Alex. And no not a word that I said meant that you didn't ship boxes of Rifters to your distributors, congrats on that, that has no bearing on your overall sales which even you seem to admit later on in your post are down, but that so what everyone's are down. But from everything we've heard about how tough things are they've been down for a while now. Now if they're not and you've been doing great, then good, but that's certainly not the impression we've gotten for a good while here.


Daniel Stoker

What some people do not understand is that since the start of the current Recession, sales have been down for everyone. Context is very important. There is good information out there about the "real" book trade and I can tell you that pre-orders for new books are down as well.

All I'm reading in the local papers is that businesses are still reluctant to hire right now. Hopefully, in a few months, that will change. So even looking outside of the publishing industry, people are reluctant to spend a lot right now, but will still spend for some things. iPads and iPhones did quite well. A recent article shows Apple beating Microsoft in market value. Looking across the broader entertainment market spectrum, things are still difficult.

A careful reading of Kevin's murmurs over the last several months shows weeks with strong, weak and mixed sales. That squares with other businesses that we know of in diverse categories.



Alex Marciniszyn

Well some people have pretty much said that if you don't like the product as-is then you're a bad fan and a bad player. I think that's the closest anyone on this thread has come to drawing a line in the sand and declaring that everyone who disagrees is wrong.

Yep. According to Damian if you think the rules are have problems it's probably because you haven't read them properly and don't fully understand them (ie you're an idiot who can't read). And according to Carl, if you've got concerns about the rules then you're doing it wrong because good players don't worry about that stuff (ie you're an idiot who can't roleplay)

I have said it more than once. The company as a whole really does not want any negative feedback of any kind. Constructive or otherwise. We know nothing as fans they know everything so all that is required is for us to nod and smile and keep buying PB products. Then they wonder why they keep losing fans and market share. A company that wants the glory dayss of the 80s and 90s while doing their damn best not to alter or change anything and wonder why their fanbase keeps shrinking. Sometimes I feel like just doing like some posters in this thread have hinted at. Take the highway and not look back. God knows their are more easier, clear comprehensive rpgs on the market. Except when I go and leave I do so on my own terms and when I'm ready. Shinitenshi my advice to you is to keep playing rpgs from this company while branching out into others. Send me a PM if you want some links to other rpgs.

This company like many other companies loves their fans when they need something from them. After that is done they take us for granted. Maybe I'm wrong yet I will be blunt your public relations with fans who have a disseting opinions sucks. Chances are you may have lost Shinitenshi as a fan along with others. I don't blame him if he decided to no longer play, buy or use PB products. The impression I get is that were considered disposible commidites. Used when needed tossed aside when they are not. In the end it hurts PB. Causing a shrinking fanbase to just shrink faster

Haven't sales been an issue for a while now even before that though?


Daniel Stoker

Im sorry but you all are right, now let me explain, the side that says palladium needs a rules change yes they do, they need to take a look at the rules as have been presented and mesh them into a cohesive rules set. Now for the people who say that fans who complain are not true palladium fans, you are right as well to a point, if the poster is doing nothing but bashing the palladium product and name and has never lent a positive view point of the company then yes they are not a fan but a detracting effect. Look at this thread for example. The authour had some damn good ideas and it started great. then people started complaining about what was not in the threads purpose and we end up here, a jumbled pile of complainants and loyalist who will never see eye to eye on the companies ideas.

Now if you check my posting history you will find I am a purist who enjoys my palladium with no rules changes but I can see where certain rules could use a polish or update, does that mean I am going to scream every time some says the system is broken and should be burned, NO but I will if that is all they are doing, But I willI look at the persons idea and I try and see where the truth in the madness is, Now for those who start quoting numbers I would like to quote some thing to you " If I wanted to rely on numbers to give me facts I would have joined the IRS" Warren Buffet once said that to news week when ask how he thought the stock market crash from the dot com's was going to turn out. Now numbers will tell us a lot but it will not tell us the true heart of a company now I have met played and spoke to Kevin on a couple of occasions and for those of you who have you will know that this company will be run out of a garage before he sees it go under, But I for one am sure in my heart that Palladium will be here for a while. How do you say well simple and for those people who say there local store does not carry Palladium, listen in. " I make demand, I run newbie only games at my local game store, yes I strike out, but like every thing you love it will happen. I also run at every convention and I run pick up games in the free game area while between games. it is a simple formula if there is demand there is Supply, Palladium has all the supply your game store needs, you only have to show them there is a demand, you say he has a bunch of old copies of books, heck snag them at a discount and use them as swag, for a game, or quit letting the gaming group hog the reference library over at your house have them buy it, once the store owner sees the demand he will supply it is only good business. no that leads me to the people who say Kevin needs to run his business smarter not harder to be nice, Could Palladium use a little stream lining yes, but with the staff he has Kevin is going to find a hard time doing that, Plus it is his baby, even I would like to see a streamlined editing and review process put in place as my twenty plus years of playing this game has shown it is this process that holds books up. I am not saying Kevin give it up heck no, but some of the other stuff like layout and so forth give to our illustrious Rifter teams, he does a damn great job as it is.

But I believe I have ranted and tried to show every one they are correct but the give and take in this argument is so hair thin that unless one or the other on the sides is going to understand the other they have to open there minds a little more than, they are showing.

To be fair, its not the company, but other fans. That's an important distinction.

Alex M is quite right. The Great Recession that began in 2007 *may* have ended for Wall Street, but certainly not for Main Street. Many economist believe we now exist a "New Normal" economy that may not see "recovery" for a decade or longer.

It's a dangerous and difficult time for every company. On one hand, we have "innovate or die" and other the other we have "serve your core customers" and both are 100% true. The recession means that one serious stumble in a business plan can easily close even a major company.

As always, I wish Palladium great and wondrous success. I deeply hope their best days are ahead. I would love to see their past decade of tribulations washed away with many triumphs.

However, I am not blind to realities and changes in the RPG marketplace nor does my business acumen vanish when I go online as a fan.

The recession (and changing trends in entertainment) explain why the RPG market has been shrinking of late. They don't explain why Palladium's share of that market has been shrinking, or why it's been shrinking since before the recession started.

Let's be honest here folks, these are not the glory days of the early 90s when Rifts was one of the hot new things among RPGs and Palladium could routinely claim (depending on that quarter's sales figures) that it was second only to TSR/WotC in market share. It ain't the good old days when you could walk into a game store and see Palladium Books getting a huge slab of shelf space to rival what White Wolf and Steve Jackson Games were getting. And Palladium's declining shelf space isn't the fault of a recession that hadn't even started until long after Palladium stopped being one of those companies that warranted a huge slab of space in every game store.

While I agree that the recession maybe a factor in PB losing profit the loss of market share was happening even before the recession. So imo it cannot be the only factor for that loss. To me its a mix pof both internal and external factors. Sometimes as a company one has to say maybe the way we do things is just not working and we need to take responsiability for it. It can't always be something or someone else causing it.

There is no published information that shows market share for all companies in the RPG business.







Alex Marciniszyn

30 years ago yes, now after so many add ons its cracks are getting far to big to ignore. Just to clarify my position. I have no problem with PB D20 vs D20 core system, its how its been handled all of these years to whats its become now.

PS: I thought DnD could be considered a D20 vs DN (Diff Number) with D20 Saves ?

You may be 100% correct, but that has not been my experience on the PB forums.

Not for all companies, but from the site you referenced earlier in the topic, here are the top five RPGs for 1st quarter this year.

-Chris

And from this past quarter.

Wow, I can't say I'm to surprised but good to see the Dresden Files doing so well.


Daniel Stoker

Rankings do not indicate market share and can vary from month to month.

The November 2005 issue of Comics & Games Retailer shows Rifts at number 7 with a green triangle showing upward movement for sales reported for August. We ranked number 5 in market share. There was also a nice graph showing sales over a four year period. Too bad Comics & Games Retailer is no longer around.





Alex Marciniszyn

Let me put it this way. It does not tell people how many copies sold.







Alex Marciniszyn

But what do they indicate?


Daniel Stoker

Everyone needs to chill out and put their feelings in check.

All I'm trying to do is address the concept of market share. That's all.


Out of a list of 5 top selling products, how much of the pie does each company own? It will fluctuate but it generally goes like this.


Company

A) 40-50%
B) 20%
C) 10%
D) 5%
E) 3%


These aren't real numbers for the RPG industry, but if they were, you could tell which company had the bigger piece of the market. The only way to know if a company is gaining or losing market share is to know all of the actual percentages of the company you're interested in and the numbers for its competitors, over say, at least a two year period. I'm just trying to add some clarity here about what market share means.

Is the RPG Industry as big as it was 10 years ago? It appears not, but you can't say that for certain without knowing what people were actually printing and selling from the year 2000 to date.





Alex Marciniszyn

Really? You say that ranking can vary from 'month to month' then cite a source from half a decade ago?

Did I call you out? No. I said "Everyone".

Agreed. Not sure what he is trying to get at. I would rather see more current facts.

I think he was citing an example of a source that actually showed over all market share and then lamented that unfortunately that source is no longer available.

That was certainly how I read it.

You can sort of get a rough guide by seeing how much shelf space game stores are dedicating to any given RPG though, especially if you ask around (after all, it'd be silly for someone to take the friendly local gaming store as the be all and end all of the industry). And I don't think I've ever heard of anyone anywhere who claims that Palladium Books is getting nearly as big a share of shelf space in any store they've been to as it did back in the good old days. Every gamer who was around in the 90s is able to remember a time when Palladium Books got a big ol' slab of space in any game store they went into. But every gamer who talks about buying Palladium's stuff today talks about finding stuff in bargain bins and having to get their store to order stuff in.

And while saying "There's no published figures" is an easy way to dismiss pessimistic talk, I notice that nobody's stepping up and denying that Palladium has lost a lot of ground when it comes to market share.

A lack of denial does not mean its true either.

No but statements by several people from different parts of the country (and myself here in the highest populated area of Canada) certainly seem to indicate as such. At least in those areas of the country and Canada.

In my area it used to be you could find PB proudcts all over the place 10 years ago. Now only one store carries the full range of products and even they are cutting back on that. For them it just does not do as well and they cannot affors to waste shelf space on product that does not maove. Until Kevin or Alex come out and say that the company has regained their market share I will assumethe company has not. Nothing in the gaming stores and gernally lack of players interested in playing or running a PB tell me otherwise.

It'll be totally anecdotal but how about people start taking pictures of the shelves where they buy games to show what's being sold and what's not? I know in my area there are no real game stores and I've been left to buy online or checking the local comic book store, but it might be interesting to see.


Daniel Stoker

And in my area The Guardtower (oldest running game store in Columbus OH.) dedicates space for every in print book for every single system currently available. The second oldest game store in Columbus has only been in business 10 years and has changed ownership as many times (and caters to mostly minis.) All other LGS barely last more than 3 years before closing up shop. (most do not make it a year.) Its has been this way for over 20 years.
Hardly a good judge of market share is it?

I've got one, great gaming/comic/minis store within a 100 mile radius of where I live (NE Tenn) and it carries a ton of gaming material with the thrust of its stuff being D&D (of course), White Wolf, Palladium, Star Wars and a smattering of other titles, usually in small numbers. The RPG "darlings" ie small press/indy stuff - has no presence in this store or any other within a 100 miles.

Of course, this store is also the only one within a 100 miles that carries any significant amount of Palladium titles. Other stores may have 1 to 5 titles at best.

I love The Guardtower. Great store.

As for local gaming store anecdotal evidence: The game store I use, only buys 3 copies of brand new PB product. Just because he knows he will sell it. Everything else is special ordered. He also sells used RPG's at huge discounts. On his shelf right now is about 15 Palladium Books - Mainly Rifts, but some Heroes Unlimited. After talking to him, he see's the used section explode and decline on a cycle. About every year and a half.

Some of this is almost funny. I regularly call our largest distributor to get an idea of how the RPG market is doing. Bottom line: everything is down everywhere. People losing their jobs and their homes, and some people moving in the hope of finding work in another state. The last two years have been hell for people in general. And stores, all stores, are offering discounts around here. Heck, I got a discount coupon from eBay.

All this speculation does is fuel a very narrow perception of what's going on. I got calls from people opening new stores this year looking for our products. The population has moved around.

We're going on 30 years of doing this and I know some people just can't figure out how this happened. On another forum, for years, all I read was: "I don't know anyone who plays their games." It became an inside joke here whenever we shipped out a new book. "You know, nobody actually plays our games." "Yeah, so who's buying 'em?"

I understand everyone's concern but we are doing the best we can, and will continue to do so. I'm looking forward to 2011.




Alex Marciniszyn

So am I, Al. With so many good books in the line up for the upcoming months, I know where my fun money is going.

On a side, how many non-Rifter books did we see this year?


Daniel Stoker

4

Dead Reign SB2: Dark Places Shipped 12/01/09
Dimensional Outbreak Shipped 3/09/10
Triax Two Shipped 04/27/10
Heroes of the Megaverse Shipped 09/15/10

Many gamers refuse to buy any PB product because of the rules. They will not touch your games if you gave them a free 10 ft pole. True a new edition may or may not bring those gamers back yet your not getting enough new or old blood returning to the fold. How long before the fanbase is unable to support the company. The impression I get is that as a whole the company does not want to change anything and that any day now things will change. Any day now.

I am kind of dreading and looking forward to 2011. Forward because new material will come out and dreading it because every start of a new year we get a overly optimistic release schedule that we only get to see a fraction of. No matter how many times we ask for a realistic release schedule.

I would bet that less people would complain about theim being closed mouthed than those who complain about them never being able to hit a deadline.

I would take that bet... but my Gammy told me to never steal money.

Past experiences on other BBSs (as well as this one) has shown that roughly one half of those that currently complain about a companies practices will be the first to complain should the company choose to alter said practices.

Kevin could hand out free bags of money with every book. People would complain about the color of the bag.

Back in the old days of the PML it was more common to complain about the lack of information. I lean more towards saying what quarter your aiming for.


Due to transportation problems, I have not been to my local game store since the start of the year. He still had a shelf for Palladium Books and it was a strong seller for him. New releases tended to sell out very quickly.

More likely the color of the money... Some people just don't like Green!