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ok lets try this scenario on for size.

I create a web site for shareing my conversions of the Mass Effect universe in to a popular pen and paper mechanics system (which one does not matter but we can assume it is one of which I am a fan).
I have had the site running for some time.
Now Bioware has decided to shop out the license to RPG game companies.
Bio-ware discovers my site.
Now they (BW) decide that I have violated their TM and will not do business with that company.
I have just cost that company (the RPG Publisher) business.

this is why its not a good idea to mix Marks.

That's a rather arbitrary assumption. On what basis do you predict that Bio Ware would refuse to do business with a partner based on a fan made website created by a third party?

If that actually occurred during a research phase, the worst that would happen is that Bio Ware would attempt a C&D. But to assume that your fansite (or anyone else's) would have any bearing on business decisions of the company is reaching. And that doesn't even address how I was supposedly 'getting mixed up' between Trademark and Copyright.

As someone who has been running a fan site for over a decade, and has defended my OWN trademark regarding my website (The Allspark) -- I do have some experience in how this stuff works.

personal experience with other products and RPGs... and C&Ds do get sent but the site also colors the IP owners decision making process generally not for the best; they tend, (rightly or wrongly) to blame the RPG company for not keeping a tighter reign on their fans.

this I believe was a misunderstanding of what you meant.

I can see where one may think that a company may pull away from a particular publisher based on a Fan Site. But it could go the other way also, and instead of pulling away push a particular company to go with publisher that said fan site had used as their model.

At worst, a C&D letter would arrive to the fan site.

Whether or not a company uses a publisher, would not merit on a fan site. But instead would merit on the publisher and any who have sparked interest in the company's product (very much like how Robotech was picked up by Palladium the first time around.)

or the company could just pull its license all together.
as what happened when Fox decided to shop out the license for an Aliens RPG.
several web sites were discovered showing direct conversions of the iconic Xenomorphs for multiple mechanics systems.
this disturbed Fox executives so much they pulled the licenses off the market.

Corporate executives do not think like normal folks; always assume the worst case it is the most likely response by them.

If you want to live in fear, have fun.

If you want to enforce fear, pick on people without lawyers.

Everyone else, go enjoy Fair Use.

Fan sites, fan fic, fan art, fan whatever isn't new. Trekkies published fan fic in the 1960s. Artists have been selling their take on Disney characters since Snow White came out...even not-for-kiddie artwork. Cartoonists use Fair Use every day for politics, satire and comedy. It's not new.

If you stiffle your most ardent, active and creative fans, they put their creativity toward other companies. Fearmongering and legal strutting bring nothing. It's called "winning the battle and losing the war."

Changing the rules doesn't guarantee to make the game play better.
Changing the rules would still not please everyone, and still people would not be satisfied!
Changing the rules could upset the whole compatibility of all the other palladium games!
is that worth risking money and time just because some people feel the game could run better with more updated system!

Isn't that what house rules are for?

Rpg games is not like what videogames are where your stuck at what the programer decides to configures how the game plays like, YOU are the programer!
YOU the gm is the creator and no one is going to knock on your door to tell you that you can't play your game like that.
If its fun then run with it.

Your game is all yours and that something you can't say about videogames, movies, books, or tv shows
and thats what makes rpg tabletop games superior to all fourm of media!

The Architector.

First off no one is arguing what media is best we if anything debating toward in updated system, it's along time coming. Palladium needs to change old habit's and gear it self toward a new environment.

I stand with you on this one.

If I have to have more then 5 house rules for a system then I mine as well just make up my own homebrew RPG and not play that system. Most people are just saying some of the rules need updating and clarification, of course not everyone is going to be happy. Not everyone was happy with the Robotech in manga format, but they still published it. Not everyone is happy about the new vampire sourcebook coming out, but they are still talking about publishing it. I think that what people are trying to get at is that updating and clarifying SOME of the rules has the potential to bring in more new fans, especially ones that shied away from the system because of those unclear or bogged down rules.

I support change. Everyday is a potential new world and there's bound to be some kind of evolution if there is a goal of survival.

Actually Damian's right. You're allowed to post derivative works based on Palladium's stuff because Palladium lets you, not because derivative works are fair game as long as they're free. Palladium Books are well within their rights when they send out cease and desist letters to folks who cook up derivative works that involve mixing Palladium stuff up with other properties that they don't own.

Whether they actually have to do this to protect their intellectual property is up for debate (fanfic writers and roleplayers across the internet have destroyed a grand total of zero properties by writing crossovers so far ). And whether doing this is a smart move or not is very unlikely, since it shields them from a virtually nonexistent legal threat at the cost of cramping the fanbase's style and making the company look meaner than they'd like to be.

one point I would like to make...
while I have been defending Pally's right to do as they do... it in no way means I agree with it.
I does however mean I understand their side of it. I do not blame Kevin for his course of action; from a legal stance it is the only safe course (no matter how slim we may believe the threat to be there is still a chance.)

Also on a side note:
Kevin has been told since Palladiums inception that every major decision he has made will cause the company to fail. He has repetitively proved those detractors wrong. Is it any wonder he does not take "demands" to "fix" the system or he will fail seriously?

I think there is a big difference between a company that is failing, and a company that is healthy. Palladium is neither. I don't think trying to appeal to a broader consumer base could possibly work against Palladium, but the company seems against trying at this point. They have streamlined a little, but aren't willing or able to put in the effort to rework or reformat the system to make it more accessible and easier to digest. I don't mind it. But it could use better organization.

I would not go so far as to say everything Kevin has done has been benefical to the company. It's not like the company is in tip top shape finance wise and it's not as if their is a massive influx of gamers coming to the system. Has he proven some of his detrators wrong absolutely all of them not by a long shot imo.

the point I am trying to make is the more vehemently the subject of "fix it or die" is pushed the less receptive he may be to the suggestion (especially considering his past experiences).

I don't think that Pallaium needs a rules update. The basic system has been out for 30 years and is still my favorite. My dice feel like tools or weapons in my hands and in many ways it is like having a deck of cards, like many of the card games out there, when rolling them against the GM, an NPC or fellow player ( Now thats Personal!), or just to see if I'm successful at perforoming a skill. It has the " Magic" feel of opposed card games in dice form which I think is wonderful.

I'd also like to point out that palladium is a pen and paper roll playing game. It isn't table top gaming. when you put things on paper and measure, stats have to be accurate. Jumping, running, swimming, just can't be left out of a game of inches. I like the Warhammer stuff and have a copy of it, but I still like the open inturpretation of story telling. I think that story is something that Palladium does well. There is a focus on imagination and story telling and interaction between charracters, not talking about rules and game dynamics.

I like the idea of Consolidation and updating into a series of books. If their are a few rules that have come up as broken, the system isn't broken, just the need to provide a rule to fill in the area. For example jumping and holding one's breath. Or how long a skill takes. A book outlining what strike rolls to use and when during ranged combat, missles, and dodging bonuses and penalties would be great. I think that there are already a set of rules for most of those things that work for most senarios.

For me a rules update would mean a book consolidating all of the current combat and character creation rules, as well as character O.C.C. template and some suggestions on how to fill one out and then some outlines on races and an open template for the races. Seperate books on Magic, Powers and Psionics would also find homes in my palladium books collection. Ofcoarse, I'd love to see examples of how many of these abilities would be used by a few example O.C.C.'s in each book.

I'm hoping that the core of Palladium stays the same. I think that it has lasted 30 years for a reason and THACO has come and gone. It is obvious that things are changing in the gaming world, but Palladium has been around for quite a long time. I hope that palladium is around for a long time to come.

You mean you want a clarified rules book?

THACO ?

I don't think I have heard that term in quite a number of years. In fact, it was this static defense concept that drew me into Palladium games in the first place, the simplicity of D20 vs D20 was great, innovative, dareing and just made sense.

From a legal stance it seems to be no such thing. Very few other companies and writers out there pay such close attention to what's going on with free fan-written works, or feel a need to step in with form letters every time someone dares to write a crossover. And (as I just mentioned), nobody's lost their IP rights because some fan somewhere wrote a crossover and handed out photocopies of it at a convention or put it on a website. Just to use a mind-numbingly terrifying example, George Lucas and Joss Whedon didn't need to have their legal teams spring into action just because someone wrote a slash story involving Xander from the Buffyverse and Jar-Jar Binks.

So yeah, I kinda do blame either Kevin or whoever's giving him legal advice. It's one thing to be cautious, but they're kind of heading into Chicken Little country and protecting themselves from things that are about as unlikely as being hit by lightning.



Nice strawman. Great way to throw up an argument against people who think the Palladium system has problems without actually having to address their points

Possibly yet if some like the fanbase myself never say anything than nothing imo will ever be changed either. Or that Kevin will be made aware that some of his rules need clarifying and changing. It's not like this is a totally new issue that just sprung up overnight in this thread. It's something that has been recurruring for years and nothing gets done about. So as a fan one has two choices. Either not say anything or keep bringing up the subject in the hopes Kevin will listen. For good or bad I chose the second option.

I am not saying do not bring up the issue...
I am saying stop with the "fix it or die" mentality.
It does nothing to further your cause.

I think that "Update or the Fan Base will continue to Shrink" is perfectly applicable.

I just don't want to one day be doing with Palladium as i am now doing with West End Games Star Wars. Playing and trying to get people to play it even though it is a dead and gone edition of the game.

If nothing is done the only gaurantee is that the fanbase will continue to dwindle. It has dwindled for years and all that has been done is catering to those that remain. Dwindle....no change, dwindle.....no change. Eentually there is nothign left to dwindle or it dwindles to so small a nmber that staying in business leads to bankruptcy.

It's not if but when. Many here have families and other econimc issues. Some have already brought that up about how they can only buy onebook a year maybe two in a good year. Things need to change to keep THOSE fans as well not just those who buyevery book. An updates/clarified complete rules book is something ALL of us by the looks of (or at least a large number) would want and very much like to have in our collections. How is this a bad thing to do and not feasible to do?

Kevin spent MONTHS writing Heroes of the Megaverse. nearly 5 all told by the time it went to the priinters. Was this book REALLY neccessary? IMO no it was not. It was a very nice gesture to the fans. In fact it was an EXCELLENT gesture to those fans that bought the print. However the books only REAL selling point is to those peopel that woudl be listed in the book. Will I get it? Probably, though I doubt I'll have any real use for it outside of possible and interesting read on some of the NPC's. COuld that energy have been better placed? I think definitely. ArmUn could be done now since it only needed edits.. VampKing could be done now since it only needed edits and some additions and VampSB could be underway.

This is an exanmple of how Kevin runs things. It IS his sandbox and he can do as he pleases BUT he far from being always right. Negotiating with Nokia for a video game? REALLY? Manga sized books? REALLY? Though in Kevins dfense that could have been mandated by HG can't 100% sure. Another NEW game when others suffer from lack of support? REALLY?

Decisions like these along with the CoT (as much as I hate to bring it up) are what put PB where it is now not just any one reason and I fear if it continues as it always has (see previous examples) will only spell the end and some point. Not if but when.

The fan base has dwindled to the point that MANY of use can drive a couple of hours in anydirection the various local shops and NOT find new PB material because tehy do not carry it. THAT is NOT good. Why is this so? Because teh fanbase has dwindled to the point the storoes not willing to buyproduct that will not sell.

and what would your reaction be if someone told you that something you poured your heart and soul into was wrong and you absolutely had to do it their way or else? I doubt you would be willing to listen to them.
The "my way or the highway" attitude is a combative attitude.
Not the best way to get someone to listen with an open mind.

Oh the irony of that question in regards to Palladium just drips like fresh blood off the blade, I laughed so hard I think I peed a little.

There was no "My way or the Highway" in what I said, and I was far from combative.

The fact that Palladiums share of the market had shrunk drastically as compared to the shrink of their competitors is a fact. And no I'm not gonna cite it, you either believe it or not. Unless they bust the "We don't discuss our numbers because one of our vile competitors might use them against us" routine I'm sure the PTB would confirm it.

But hey, I didn't work for the company or anything.

I'm confused. On one hand your telling me to being up the issues I have with PB and on the other your telling me not to. Which is it? And since my cause keeps gettting ignored so to speak the soultion is to not bring it up. How exactly is that going to advance my cause in any way.



If my company was doing well out of financial trouble and getting new blood to replace those that left I would ignore them. If my company was in financial trouble not getting new fans chances are I would not be doing everything that the would be telling me too yet I would listen to see what I could improve on. PB is in trouble all around. Deny it all you want but it is. It's only a matter of time.

Beyond my old gaming group it's almost impossible to find any new PB players in my area. Out of the 3 remaining game stores only one carries a full range of PB books and even that one is slowly cutting back. Once a particular sourcebook is sold out they no longer carry it unless you request to order it. You go outside of this forum and go to other rpg forums and theior seems to me to be zero interest in PB products. As for being open minded I never go that impression from PB in general. They have done their best to stick to the status quo. I can respect that but it's not going to solve their current problems. They want new players without doing any major changes and it's just not going to happen. Too much competion from other rpgs on the market with more open minded developers. PB wants to have it's cake and eat it too. Unfortunately there may come a time when they cannot even afford to buy cake.

do it this way or else
my way or the highway
citing sales figures then claiming you have the only solution
It still comes across as combative.

your statement: "Update or the Fan Base will continue to Shrink"
My statement: "update and there is a good chance the fan base will see an increase"

which is the more palatable statement?

continue to discuss your side of the debate but choose your words carefully. avoid sweeping do this or else statements. nothing will close a mind faster.

Where in this thread has anyone said "Do this or Die?" I also don't believe Josh said he had the ONLY solution. The majority that are for a compiled and clarified rules books are saying "Hey we fans would love to see this and it wouldn't HURT sales to do something like this." You DM are the one that feels like he's coming off combative to me, telling people exactly how they should word their posts so you don't take what they are saying the wrong way.

[sarcasm]yup thats exactly what I did.[/sarcasm]
presenting an either/or statement is almost always seen as combative in debate; it implies (intended or not) that there are only two options or courses of action and the opposite view is not only wrong but fool hardy. Not exactly the best way to sway some one is it?

I want a mechanics only book as much as everyone else.
I just do not think statements to the effect of do this or else are going to go very far in swaying the PTB at Palladium.

What side are you on you waffle more then Bret Favre? Honestly you are the biggest person in this thread telling folks it this way or the highway, and you are the one that just told people to word their post carefully, I mean come on your not even making sound argument anymore, your against fan sites yet you support the fans. You asked Josh Hilden how he'd feel if he worked on something and someone told him to "Do it their way or the highway" which happened to him! You told sureshot he need to word his post right, why don't you? Ever post from you has been either like what pally does or leave and play another system, that's a great way to help the dwindling fan base. Honestly the most combative person in this thread has been you, every ideal that would involve change for palladium has been an issue you have stood against then later stated you are all for or agree with. I'm sorry but your arguments anymore are fail.

You did tell people to chose their words carefully so that is telling people how to word their posts. People are just stating in THEIR OWN OPINION what they would like to see, and it's their right to think Pally is being silly for not doing it. All the people that are saying they want to see this are fans and don't want to see Pally go out of business. Is Pally going to go out of business if this isn't done who knows, you don't know no one does, but it's not a bad thing for fans to worry about the future of a company they love.

Its funny that people would cry for a rules update, and a company such as D&D would change their system to adopt the d20 vs d20 system that already exists in Palladium books! Saying that the rules need to be updates is one thing, but creating a new rules set is another thing entirely. Concidering that D&D and Path finder now use a simular system to Palladium, and have met with great success, I don't believe that a rules change is the answer to Palladiums problems ( Don't ask me for the answer to this problem either). I just happened to notice this fact during a conversation with my wife this morning. We are both Palladium fans and love the game system. Its not like Palladium can go to a THAC0 one sided armour class sytem like D&D used to be. It seems that Palladiums rules set was trend setting from the very start.

The thing is one of the reasons D&D became so popular again with 3E is that they addressed many of the problems with their rules. It brought myself and others back into the fold because they fixed not all but some of the problems the game had. I saw that Wotc was willing to take a risk and I can respect that. PB want to reverse ther trends of them losing market share yet not alter anything. It unforuntaerly does not work like that.

As for wording my posts differently as my sig says Palladium can't be given a free pass for criticism because people have a lot of emotion invested in it. I stand by that.

Damian's opinion has been the same all along and kudos to him for keeping a level head and sticking by his beliefs. The Cabal of 24 constantly complains about this and that. Is the system perfect? No, but none are. You can nit pick any any system to the same extent the 24 has and expose flaws in every gaming system. You know there are game system I don't like and in those game systems rules i think are wrong, but I don't go to those "fan forums" to tell them what a crappy system they are playing. Oh your system is so bad that I can't even get my gamers to play it. BTW people are leaving the system in droves and I just happen to know this because I can't get my four other gamers to play it. Yep I know better than the owners of the company. Geez why can't they see it

The 24 can't even keep on the topic of just discussing rules. Instead they complain about Palladiums business practices and business decisions. You're not happy with the way Palladium does things? REALLY? Not happy with the decision that are made at the top? REALLY? Well I'm glad you have all the answers. Thanks for sharing your wisdom. To bad that wisdom is pretty much armchair quarterbacking and you don't have any facts to back up your wisdom. Are you entitled to your opinions, absolutely, but so are the rest of us.

Last comment referring to the section in blue above. Criticism and changes should be expected by every writer. This helps writers grow. If you become complacent and think they know it all then you got another thing coming. Furthermore making a book into a commercially viable product is something Kevin and crew know how to do. To think any of the freelancers (former and current, yes me included) knows better is laughable. Groan and complain all you want, but here is where customers can voice their complaints. The forums are for fans thanks for making it a fun place for us

My apologies to anyone offended. My opinions are my own and not that of Palladium Books. Feel free to voice your complaints about my post directly to the Palladium staff if you wish. While you're doing that you can tell them everything else they're doing wrong. I'm sure they'd love to hear it.

Really Carl are you seriously trying to say Ninjabunny isn't a fan? Just because you think something is wrong with a system or that there should be updates does not mean you are not a fan. Pally is the only thing NB plays. How does saying what you think is wrong with something, and suggestions on what could help something make you not a fan. Most of us are not saying Pally is losing customers in droves because we have friends that won't play it. We say that because in the years that we have been playing it has become increasingly harder for us to find Palladiums products in our local game stores. When I first started playing I could find at least 5-6 books and several rifters in my local game store. Two years ago there was maybe 1-2 books and rifters, I was told that I would have to special order any pally books since they didn't sell and he gave me a discount on rifters. Now I have to either buy from Pally directly or order them from any of the game stores in town. None of the game stores in my town actively carry Pally books anymore. The owners have a few on the shelves that have been there for years, and only order something if a customer asks. This is the kind of stuff that leads some of us to believe that Pally is losing some of its fanbase.

Hasn't Palladium itself talked about sales not being what they used to be? Hell wouldn't that follow if they're having to lay people off now when before they could afford to keep them?


Daniel Stoker

Laying people off now? Like who? Nobody's being laid off.

The wild speculations about sales means that we didn't ship boxes of the Rifter to our distributors last Friday or to subscribers or to those who pre-ordered that individual issue. Times are tough right now across the board. I spoke with our buyer at our largest distributor just last week and the economy is affecting sales for everyone. We also have distributors in Canada, Germany, England and Australia. For those who don't live in those countries and who only see what's going on in their neck of the woods in the United States, it's a limited view.



Alex Marciniszyn

So you didn't lay off Jason Marker or Wayne last year? And Kevin says in every update and murmur that sales aren't what they use to be.

You didn't read what I was responding to, did you? "...lay people off now..." The key word was "now." Not last year.

And sales are down for everybody.







Alex Marciniszyn

Sales are down sounds like it's time to start rethinking your marketing, and I don't think the original poster meant right this second.

Now meant recently, I'm sorry I wasn't specific enough with my time frame for you Alex. And no not a word that I said meant that you didn't ship boxes of Rifters to your distributors, congrats on that, that has no bearing on your overall sales which even you seem to admit later on in your post are down, but that so what everyone's are down. But from everything we've heard about how tough things are they've been down for a while now. Now if they're not and you've been doing great, then good, but that's certainly not the impression we've gotten for a good while here.


Daniel Stoker

What some people do not understand is that since the start of the current Recession, sales have been down for everyone. Context is very important. There is good information out there about the "real" book trade and I can tell you that pre-orders for new books are down as well.

All I'm reading in the local papers is that businesses are still reluctant to hire right now. Hopefully, in a few months, that will change. So even looking outside of the publishing industry, people are reluctant to spend a lot right now, but will still spend for some things. iPads and iPhones did quite well. A recent article shows Apple beating Microsoft in market value. Looking across the broader entertainment market spectrum, things are still difficult.

A careful reading of Kevin's murmurs over the last several months shows weeks with strong, weak and mixed sales. That squares with other businesses that we know of in diverse categories.



Alex Marciniszyn

Well some people have pretty much said that if you don't like the product as-is then you're a bad fan and a bad player. I think that's the closest anyone on this thread has come to drawing a line in the sand and declaring that everyone who disagrees is wrong.

Apparently those people are on the committee of who is and isn't a fan.

So according to these people the fact that I think there should be an update and clarification of rules makes me a bad fan? So I own every Rifts book, the majority of Rifters, several T-shirts, I exclusively play Pally, have been to all but one of the Open Houses, participated in the costume contest, spent time and money making baked goods for the freelancers and even got married because of Palladium but I'm not actually a fan because I think they need to update and clarify some rules. Wow what a way for the company to make me feel like maybe I should stop Role Playing.

Yep. According to Damian if you think the rules are have problems it's probably because you haven't read them properly and don't fully understand them (ie you're an idiot who can't read). And according to Carl, if you've got concerns about the rules then you're doing it wrong because good players don't worry about that stuff (ie you're an idiot who can't roleplay)

I have said it more than once. The company as a whole really does not want any negative feedback of any kind. Constructive or otherwise. We know nothing as fans they know everything so all that is required is for us to nod and smile and keep buying PB products. Then they wonder why they keep losing fans and market share. A company that wants the glory dayss of the 80s and 90s while doing their damn best not to alter or change anything and wonder why their fanbase keeps shrinking. Sometimes I feel like just doing like some posters in this thread have hinted at. Take the highway and not look back. God knows their are more easier, clear comprehensive rpgs on the market. Except when I go and leave I do so on my own terms and when I'm ready. Shinitenshi my advice to you is to keep playing rpgs from this company while branching out into others. Send me a PM if you want some links to other rpgs.

This company like many other companies loves their fans when they need something from them. After that is done they take us for granted. Maybe I'm wrong yet I will be blunt your public relations with fans who have a disseting opinions sucks. Chances are you may have lost Shinitenshi as a fan along with others. I don't blame him if he decided to no longer play, buy or use PB products. The impression I get is that were considered disposible commidites. Used when needed tossed aside when they are not. In the end it hurts PB. Causing a shrinking fanbase to just shrink faster

Haven't sales been an issue for a while now even before that though?


Daniel Stoker