List of flaws in Robotech Books 1,2 & 3: Macross

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Ok,

since I got such great responses from my last two threads, I figured I would go to the area where my knowledge is the least: Macross. This will also include information on Book 2 & Book 3. So, on we go....

Lets start off with controversy and get one of the biggest things out of the way. There is NO official organization known as The Robotech Defense Force. The closest we hear is a Narrator line from Blitzkrieg about Rick Hunter being 'the robotech defense forces newest recruit'. The main problem is that time and again, the force structure is referred to as The United Earth Forces, which is the military branch of the United Earth Government. Robotech Defense Forces sounds more like an informal name like the old Soviet Strategic Rocket Forces. So, dispose of RDF, since there is only one RDF and thats a Rapid Deployment Force.

Robotech RPG Main Book

Page 44: There is no Super Veritech per se. It is simply a FAST-Pack Conversion for Outer Space Use on the VF-1. Despite claims in Strike Force, the Valkyrie only has 2 hardpoints. To explain the animation error showing the Valkyrie mounting 3 long range missiles (supposed to be 2 on the outer, 1 on the inner), apparently in space the Valkyrie has the option of magnetically bolting another LRM outside the 2 hardpoints, much like the (All White?/Endo-Space Armament?) can bolt a ton of extra missiles along the fuselage, vertical stabilizers and wingtips.

The Rt.com Infopedia is incorrect in its assertion that there were only 12 VF-1S's before the SDF-01s take-off. The OSM states there were 30 aboard the SDF-01 alone!

Missing VF-1 Armament: Dialogue and animation seems to indicate that there is a particle beam gun pod built using the GU-11 housing (reference Broken Heart and Private Time). This would help to explain how a VF-1R (IIRC) lit the cigarette of a UEF loyal Zentraedi with his gunpod, minus the blowing off of his buddy's face if it were ammo driven.

Missing Entries
- VF-Missiles out the Kazoo (Endo-Space Weapons Modification?/The 'All White' Valkyrie? from Blind Game)
- VEFR-1 Elint/Recon Veritech (from Force of Arms)
- VF-1R Refit (from Broken Heart)
- 'Orgoid' Veritech Armour (from Force of Arms & To the Stars)
- VF-X-4 (Fury?) Technology Demonstrator (from To the Stars)

Page 52: Missiles carried by the FAST-Pack are Short Range (OSM calls them Micro-missiles), not Medium Range, Medium Warhead. FAST-Pack cannot be attached to the VF-1 frame for use inside the Earth's atmosphere. As such, it is NOT used for helping the VF-1 attain orbit.

Page 55: Armoured Veritech's designation is GBP-1 - Grenade Box Protector Armour 1

Page 56: Destroid names. I could personally care less, since both sets are technically referred to in the series, but HG has determined that they want to use the OSM names.

Excaliber = MBR-Tomahawk
Gladiator = MBR-Spartan
MAC II = HWR-Monster
Raider X = ADR-Defender
Spartan = SDR-Phalanx

Palladium DID seem to be on the right track with the Monster and Defender, in that they appear to have different weapons based on the animation and OSM notes. There are points in the animation that clearly support the assertion that the Monster mounts x3 beam cannons in its arms (specifically Bye-Bye Mars and Broken Heart) as well as others that show the OSM x3 missile pods (Force of Arms and bizarrely, Broken Heart). There are also points in the animation that support the Defender having beam cannons (Sweet Sixteen and To the Stars) as well as the OSM 78mm cannons (Force of Arms and, bizarrely again, To the Stars).

Page 57: TZ-III Gun cluster autocannon is 25mm not 32mm. Machineguns are moved to head area, so no reason not to put the listing arights. Shoulder Mounted Missile Pod contains 6 anti-aircraft/surface-to-air missiles, not surface-to-surface.

Page 61: Monster 40cm cannons can only hold a total of 28 rounds, not 40. Arms are supposedly missile launchers (visuals from Bye-Bye Mars might conflict with that). I can see both being used, missile and beam cannon.

Page 66: Interestingly, according to the Macross OSM, the Phalanx's missiles are short range! Taken directly from Egan Loo's The Macross Compendium: ARMAMENT main: 2 x 22-missile Howard SHIN-SHM-10 Derringer short-range high-maneuverability self-guided missile pod

I've checked the dialogue from Force of Arms and I haven't found anything that even remotely indicates that this mecha has long range missiles. High maneuverability, anti-aircraft ones...yes. But not long range. The Robotech.com Infopedia (which is not surprising) is WRONG!

Also, screen captures from Robotech seem to indicate that each bin should contain 2x14 missiles instead of 2x11 (magazine holds 1 set of reloads, for a total of 56 SRMs). This would seem to partially invalidate the OSM notes, which could be based mostly on the DYRL appearance of the Phalanx instead of its SDF Macross one (I guess).

There is also a matter of some of the Phalanxes apparently having alternate head types. I believe one of the models from Force of Arms has a non-standard type head (appears to be something like a dual-barreled top/bottom cannon).

Page 67: Fighter complement different on the Armor-series. It should read: Aircraft: 78 Lockhee SF-3A Lancer II manned space fighters, 270 Northrom QF-3000E Ghost all-regime unmmaned fighter, numerous other craft

Page 68: No such fighter exists. This is in fact the Oberth-class Destroyer. Not only is this clearly stated in the OSM, but size comparisons in screen shots show it to be coequal with the Armor's in length.

Page 69: Lancer II is a manned fighter, not an AI unmanned. Armaments should be x2 beam cannon and missiles (instead of just the x2 plasma-shell cannon).

Shuttle is classed as the SC-27 Stargoose.

Missing Entry: Heavy Lift Launch Vehicle/Booster (which can apparently acts as a booster and cargo ship)

Missing Entry: Space Cargo Freighter

Missing Entry: Deep Space Sensor Buoy

Page 71: The Adventurer II should read: LTV Avenger II Ground Attack plane (its NOT a jet fighter). It carries missiles and/or bombs on its hardpoints, but has a pair of missiles mounted conformally on the fuselage (they're even in the graphic provided in the book!). Also appears to contain an internal bomb bay for additional munitions, Its loadout on the wings would be 40, not 30.

The Falcon II is, in fact, designated F-203 Dragon II. This will help as the Falcon in Robotech is the misnamed Phantom from Southern Cross. It also mounts a pair of gatlings in addition to the missiles. These,again, are clearly shown in the drawing and should read - ARMAMENT: Two 16-mm gatling cannons mounted in left and right wing root. Six hybrid guided self-homing missiles mounted under wing.

Missing Entry: FL-200 Mistral

Page 72: The QF-3000E mounts an additional x2 missile bays

Page 73: The Sea Sergeant's 4 hardpoints should be able to accomodate various short range missiles.

Page 75: The 6x6 Armoured Car (AAR-Recon II) has x2 missile pods mounted on the forward end according to Nanashi's Information Group. Thats the weird hatches on the front that look like the missile pod hatches on a Destroid.

Missing Entries
- Centipede Hostile Environment Truck
- Flatbed Mecha Hauler
- Various Civilian and Military transport vehicles used in Macross City
- MBS Broadcasting Truck

Page 77: 'RDF Machine Pistol' is in fact the CLMP .45 Cal Caseless Machine Pistol. The RRG says its designated the M-9 and uses 9x19mm, but Egan's says .45 cal, so I stuck with Egan. I guess one could split the difference and have 2 separate versions, one .45 and the other 9mm, but why?

Page 79: No such weapons, Light Laser Pistol, Light Laser Rifle and Heavy Laser Rifle exist. The Light Laser Rifle is, in fact, the AR-21 5.56mm Caseless Machine Rifle. The Laser Pistol is a weapon of indeterminate type (which can apparently blow a human-sized panel off the elevetor door of a Zentraedi ship.) It would appear to be a magazine-fed heavy weapon of some type.

Page 82: Simply put, the average Zentraedi (mecha pilot/foot soldier) is NOT 50ft/14m in height. They are aprox. 9-10m on average, otherwise they couldnt get into a Battlepod without a shoehorn and ALOT of grease. The Zentraedi NEVER lost to the Invid. The idea is preposterous to say the least and completely inflates the miniscule and pathetic power of the Invid in comparison with the world shattering Zentraedi.

They also eat regular food like us! How else do you explain Khyron's drinking what looks for all the world to be wine in Blind Game and later in Broken Heart (along with Grel hefting a Zentraedi-sized 'chicken' drumstick of some sort)?

Whats more, the Zentraedi are shown to be quite adept at fixing things (Khyron's men manage to get a Gun Destroyer repaired and running in time to attack the SDF-01 in To the Stars). Sure, they have lost the ability to make a new protoculture matrix (this goes along with what Dolza tells Rico, Konda and Bron in First Contact) and have to depend on the Masters (most likely) for their supplies of protoculture. That does not translate into them being mechanically moronic.

Missing Entry: Force of Arms variant of the Nousjadeul-Ger Powered Armour

Page 90: The Glaug Booster Vehicle doesn't have an energy shield. It also has x24 missiles instead of beam cannons.

Page 93: The Reentry Pod can carry up to 75 Zentraedi mecha. Blind Game shows one of these ships firing. Perhaps there are variants?

The Fighter Pod doesn't have an energy shield

Page 94: The Quel-Quallie (Theatre Scout) can carry several Zentraedi mecha within its bays once the internal machinery is removed. Also, in Blind Game, we see one clearly used as a combat vessel. Max Sterling blows it to kingdom come with the missiles from his Missiles out the Kazoo Modification (All White Valkyrie or whatever the frag its called). These mecha are also referred to as 'Tarantula's' in Blind Game.

Page 109: Mecha complement on the SDF-01 (according to Egan Loo) is as follows:

- Fixed wing aircraft: 120 QF-3000E Ghost.

- Veritechs: 212 VF-1 Valkyrie (120 VF-1A, 12 VF-1D, 50 VF-1J, 30 VF-1S). 300+ VF-1 Super Valkyrie (2010 February 11).

- Destroids: 587 Destroids initially stationed on docked SLV-111 Daedalus, including 2 HWR-00-Mk. II Monster, 85 MBR-07-Mk. II Spartan, and approximately 500 MBR-04 (reduced to 440 subsequently). A third HWR-00-Mk. II Monster, 40 ADR-04-Mk. X Defender, over 20 SDR-04-Mk. XII Phalanx built in onboard factory.

Missing Entry: SDF-02 (Oddysey?). Should probably use an SDF-01 graphic, but with Armor-series platforms instead of CVS/SLVs.

Robotech RPG Book II: RDF Manual

Page 11: Missing illustrations for the GU-12, EP-1 (should be EPR) and AM-1 & 2 'Watchdog' (seen in Book 8: Strike Force IIRC).

AM-1 should be non-UEF mine used mostly by AUL forces and later by various governments to take out the Zentraedi Malcontents.

M-35 Wolverine entry wrong. 7.62mm Slugthrower and its from Southern Cross to boot. No integral grenade launcher, but should be able to accept one like the M-203 for the CAR-15/M-4 & M-16.

Page 12: Missing illustrations for MBT Dark Knight (from Force of Arms) and LCT Tornado (maybe from Boobytrap?)

Page 13: AWACs is the EC-33B Tiger's Eye

Page 14: UF-14 is in fact the MiG-31 Karyovin and is an Anti-Unification League fighter.

Page 15: CVS & SLV ships have Anti-Grav capability as well as being readily useable as Space Vessels. This is not only shown in the animation (at various places) but also in the fact that there is no way the crew of the SDF-01 could have made the 2 ships capable of use in outerspace if they WEREN'T already capable. Not only would they need to be properly sealed against vaccuum, but also properly shielded for reentry as well as environmentally sealed to keep the crews alive. Gloval's comments aside, he may have been speaking without thinking when he said they were not able to be spaceworthy.

Missing Entry - Mine Warfare Vessel/Carrier Escort

Page 24: Timeline wrong in various respects. Missing completely is the Anti-Unification War of the Zeroes. Also, United Earth Government, not Unified World Government. However, RPG correct as launch date of SDF-01 cannot be in February in the Tv series (Rt.com Infopedia WAY wrong in this regard). Characters are clearly shown wearing winter weight clothing, in the South Pacific, which means our Summer months in the Northern Hemisphere. Army of the Southern Cross exists in 2013 in the series (its mentioned in Season's Greetings).

Missing Information on Colonization and Early Pioneer Mission status (we know the UEG has new cruisers built as early as mid-2013 due to footage in Khyron's Revenge).

Missing Information on Mars Base Sara, Moon Base Luna and other early space outposts.

Missing various little bits from the Tv series like robots used on Macross Island/Macross City (robot photographer, 'mobile' phone etc).

Robotech Book III: The Zentraedi

Page 6: There appears to be a difference between the Zentraedi's body armour and armoured spacesuit.

Page 28: The sizes listed for the ships in the Japanimation Sidenotes are in fact the proper sizes. The scale used in the RPG was screwed up mostly in part to the Jack McKinney novels and the whacked out interpretation of having all Zentraedi be 50ft tall.

Page 44: Designation is Picket. Its listed as a patrol ship.

Page 46-48: Heights, of course, wrong on all characters. Whats more, Exedore is not one of the oldest/first Zentraedi. The Zentraedi race is tens of thousands of years old (at the very least), not merely hundreds of years old.

Missing entries
- Various Zentraedi small and heavy arms (from Khyron's Revenge)
- Almost every single ship that appears in Do You Remember, Love? as a Meltrandi vessel appeared first in Force of Arms (many of them painted green and decidedly Zentraedi-looking).
- Regult Transport<?> (again, appears in DYRL, but is apparently found amid the ships in Force of Arms).
- Zentraedi Refueling Tanker (seen briefly at the end of Blind Game and again in First Contact).
- 'Late Model Recon Ship' (ASS-2/Alien Space Ship-2) from Viva Miriya
- Azonia's vessel from Season's Greetings (doesn't appear to be anything I can find so far).
- Zentraedi Gun Destroyer

[glitterboy2098]

just a few comments. mostly bits that RSCF missed.

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Despite claims in Strike Force, the Valkyrie only has 2 hardpoints. To explain the animation error showing the Valkyrie mounting 3 long range missiles (supposed to be 2 on the outer, 1 on the inner),

original OSM has the VF-1 with 2 hardpoints, the outer of which can carry 2 LRM's, the inner only one.

standard missile loads are pylons of 3 MRM's, boxes of 15 SRM's, or the above 1-2 load of LRM's. mixed loads are possible. (most common being one box of 15 SRM on the inner hardpoint, and a pair of LRM's on the outer hardpoint.)

HG has adopted this loadout as well.

much like the All White Endo-Space Armament can bolt a ton of extra missiles along the fuselage, vertical stabilizers and wingtips.

which, in the one 2 second scene it appeared, started as a standard VF-1A colored blue and equipped with normal armaments. given that none of the ships in that scene had color, it's fairly obvious it was a goof on the part of the artists. the extra armaments were probably intended as a joke. (how would one even fire those missiles, since there are no hardpoints there, which include computer links to tell the missile not only where to go, but when to launch?)

given that it never appeared again, and yet the three fighters of that flight (max, ben, rick) did, i think we can safely leave this one out without causing too many problems. it would be easy to do as a house rule anyway.

- 'Jotun' GBP-2 Armoured Veritech (from Force of Arms & To the Stars)

i agree that we need stats for it, but remember it doesn't hve to transform. (in fact, it looks to be a modification of the standard GBP-1 armor add-ons. the design isn't such that transformation would be easy, if even possible.)

Page 56: Destroid names. I could personally care less, since both sets are technically referred to in the series, but HG has determined that they want to use the OSM names:
Excaliber = Tomahawk
Gladiator = Spartan
MAC II = Monster
Raider X = Defender
Spartan = Phalanx

if you go to the OSM names (which HG will insist on), might as well use the MBR, ADR, SDR, and HWR designator codes as well.

Page 61: Monster 40cm cannons can only hold a total of 28 rounds, not 40. Arms are supposedly missile launchers (visuals from Bye-Bye Mars might conflict with that). I can see both being used, missile and beam cannon.

i'd set the missile arms as standard, with laser arms as optional. closer to the OSM.

Page 66: Interestingly, according to the Macross OSM, the Phalanx's missiles are short range! Taken directly from Egan Loo's The Macross Compendium:

ARMAMENT
main: 2 x 22-missile Howard SHIN-SHM-10 Derringer short-range high-maneuverability self-guided missile pod

I've checked the dialogue from Force of Arms and I haven't found anything that even remotely indicates that this mecha has long range missiles. High maneuverability, anti-aircraft ones...yes. But not long range. The Robotech.com Infopedia (which is not surprising) is WRONG!

given that even short range SAM's in RL qualify as at least MRM's with palladium's stats, i see no problem leaving the LRM's.

Page 67: Fighter complement different on the Armor-series.

the ARMD stations were designed to carry VF-1's. all ARMD platforms carried VF-1's. (the RPG claims only Armor-10, but we see another ARMD get hit, and we see a VF in it's bay.)

Page 69: Lancer II is a manned fighter, not an AI unmanned. Armaments should be x2 beam cannon

we do see the lancer's fire a quartet or so of missiles each from side launchers however. probably the same MRM's, given the size and shape similarity to the VF's missiles.

Page 71: The Adventurer II should read: A-12 LTV Avenger II Ground Attack plane (its NOT a jet fighter). It carries missiles and/or bombs on its hardpoints, but has a pair of missiles mounted conformally on the fuselage (they're even in the graphic provided in the book!). Also contains an internal bomb bay for additional munitions, Its loadout on the wings would be 40, not 30.

it is also not a VTOL, apparently. no VTOL ability is shown, or even inferred from the art. it may be STOL however.

there is however a much larger VTOL aircraft of a similar appearance. it appears to be the size of a C-5 galaxy and fills the same role. (seen disgorging a stream of duece and a half trucks to resupply the SDF-1 after landing in the pacific.)

The Falcon II is, in fact, designated F-203 (should really be F-23 IMNSHO) Dragon II. This will help as the Falcon II in Robotech is the misnamed Phantom from Southern Cross. It also mounts a pair of gatlings in addition to the missiles. These, again, are clearly shown in the drawing.

given the placement and size of the gunports, they may not be gatlings. (the bulky 20mm gatlings claimed would block the air intakes). non-gatling 20mm chainguns are possible. the F-203 is also at least STOL, as it has obvious vectored thrust vents below the engines. these are not placed properly for VTOl however.

Page 72: The QF-3000E mounts an additional x2 missile bays

actually does not carry autocannon at all. only the missile bays.

Page 75: The 6x6 Armoured Car (AAR-Recon II) has x2 missile pods mounted on the forward end according to Nanashi's Information Group. Thats the weird hatches on the front that look like the missile pod hatches on a Destroid.

might be a good spot to introduce mini-missiles. those covers look too small to be SRM's.

They also eat regular food like us! How else do you explain Khyron's drinking what looks for all the world to be wine in Blind Game and later in Broken Heart (along with Grel hefting a Zentraedi-sized 'chicken' drumstick of some sort)?

no reason to drop the paste, but a wider selection of zentradi foodstuff's is needed. (the paste might be the zent equivelent to oatmeal, tasty wheat, or gruel).

Page 82: Simply put, the average Zentraedi (mecha pilot/foot soldier) is NOT 50ft/14m in height. They are aprox. 8m on average, otherwise they couldnt get into a Battlepod without a shoehorn and ALOT of grease. The Zentraedi NEVER lost to the Invid. The idea is preposterous to say the least and completely inflates the miniscule and pathetic power of the Invid in comparison with the world shattering Zentraedi.

aside from breetai and Dolza i don't think we ever saw a zent over 40 feet.

Whats more, the Zentraedi are shown to be quite adept at fixing things (Khyron's men manage to get a Monitor-class Gunship repaired and running in time to attack the SDF-1 in To the Stars). Sure, they have lost the ability to make a new protoculture matrix (this goes along with what Dolza tells Rico, Konda and Bron in First Contact) and have to depend on the Masters (most likely) for their supplies of protoculture. That does not translate into them being mechanically moronic.

i'd say more really good repairmen, but poor mechanics. they can maintain the mecha and ships as long as they have parts, but lack the knowledge to manufacture new parts or to invent new devices on their own, normally. rather like how you don't need to know how a computer works or how to make a microchip or circit board to assemble a computer from spare parts. you just need to know what slots where and what not to mess with. thus explaining the poor repair of Dolza's ship, but how they can repair a Monitor to at least partial ability.


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you quote quite a few sources in this, would you mind giving links?

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Egan Loo's Macross Compendium Mecha Section

That has a great deal of information on it. The other one I used was

The Unofficial Robotech Reference Guide

[jedi078]

Whats more, the Zentraedi are shown to be quite adept at fixing things (Khyron's men manage to get a Monitor-class Gunship repaired and running in time to attack the SDF-1 in To the Stars). Sure, they have lost the ability to make a new protoculture matrix (this goes along with what Dolza tells Rico, Konda and Bron in First Contact) and have to depend on the Masters (most likely) for their supplies of protoculture. That does not translate into them being mechanically moronic.

I went ahead and made a Zent. Warship crewman OCC becasue of this.....

Also ask ANY armor crewman, and they will tell you they know how to effect basic repairs on their vehicles. So I would say that zents coudl have the Basic Mechanics and Basic Electronics skills

Page 15: CVS & SLV ships have Anti-Grav capability as well as being readily useable as Space Vessels. This is not only shown in the animation (at various places) but also in the fact that there is no way the crew of the SDF-1 could have made the 2 ships capable of use in outerspace if they WEREN't already capable. Not only would they need to be properly sealed against vaccuum, but also properly shielded for reentry as well as environmentally sealed to keep the crews alive. Gloval's comments aside, he may have been speaking without thinking when he said they were not able to be spaceworthy.

I wouldn't use such an anti graity capability in my games I like the idea thrown out by the uRRG where the ones seen in space were just test beds...

Addendum: I see no reason not to believe that for a short while there was a full production model of the VF-4 Fury. Since The Sentinels doesn't count anymore, why not include this wonderful design as part of the early Pioneer Mission's TO&E?

Some of my PC's are about to get some of these in my online game...

Where did you get the name Fury for the VF-4 Rabid? Make it up?

I KNOW Lightning shouldn't be used since the F-35 might get that name.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

which, in the one 2 second scene it appeared, started as a standard VF-1A colored blue and equipped with normal armaments. given that it never appeared again, and yet the three fighters of that flight (max, ben, rick) did, i think we can safely leave this one out without causing too many problems. it would be easy to do as a house rule anyway.

I just checked that series of scenes, and you're wrong. The Endo-Space Armament DOES appear for more than 2 seconds. The only time its not readily visible (until the munitions are expended) is when Max's Valkyrie is in the background and cannot be readily told how its loaded out. Check it out again, trust me.

Also, Kawamori and the BW crew made it canon anyway. File it under the same thing as the VF-1R.

i agree that we need stats for it, but remember it doesn't hve to transform

I know. Thats why I think adding the Grenade Box Protector designation fits. Its basically another version of the Armoured Veritech modifications. Its basically a VF-1A in extra armour. The only place where its hinted it transforms is in Macross Perfect Memory, but its not quite the same mecha (it shows it with a single NB-01 FAST-Pack).

if you go to the OSM names (which HG will insist on), might as well use the MBR, ADR, SDR, and HWR designator codes as well

Hehe, that was implied. Sorry I wasn't clearer.

i'd set the missile arms as standard, with laser arms as optional. closer to the OSM

Basically. The problem is the Robotech.com Infopedia doesn't cover the possibility for the Bye-Bye Mars footage.

given that even short range SAM's in RL qualify as at least MRM's with palladium's stats, i see no problem leaving the LRM's

I'm mostly concerned with people not thinking the Phalanx's missiles can travel hundreds of miles. I think the basic chart from Palladium needs to be scrapped altogether. It certainly needs to be updated to reflect current thinking in terms of missile technology.

the RPG claims only Armor-10, but we see another ARMD get hit, and we see a VF in it's bay

Gah, I meant to expand on that. According to Egan Loo's Macross Compendium: Aircraft: 78 Lockhee SF-3A Lancer II manned space fighters, 270 Northrom QF-3000E Ghost all-regime unmmaned fighter, numerous other craft

We do see the lancer's fire a quartet or so of missiles each from side launchers however. probably the same MRM's, given the size and shape similarity to the VF's missiles.

Sorry, sorry. I know. I just had a conversation earlier with Chris Meadows about this very thing while I was typing this up. I KNEW I'd goof somewhere. I corrected it in the main post, but I'll say again, that should be x2 beam cannons (instead of the x2 cannons with 120 plasma shells) and x6 missiles (probably Medium Range). I mostly don't see it being able to carry all those shells, plus the 6 missiles AND reaction mass enough to maneuver etc.

it is also not a VTOL, apparently. no VTOL ability is shown, or even inferred from the art. it may be STOL however

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply VTOL status. I know that Palladium did. Again, I screwed up on this. There is even an arrestor hook on the tail to facilitate landing on a carrier.

given the placement and size of the gunports, they may not be gatlings

Just checked Egan Loo's (forgot to earlier): ARMAMENT: Two 16-mm gatling cannons mounted in left and right wing root. Six hybrid guided self-homing missiles mounted under wing.

actually does not carry autocannon at all. only the missile bays

Again, the Macross Compendium: ARMAMENT: Six large-bore cannons mounted in left and right side of main fuselage. Eight missile launch bays with hatches mounted in left and right side of main fuselage.

might be a good spot to introduce mini-missiles. those covers look too small to be SRM's

I know that I asked Nanashi about them, IIRC, he indicated they are supposed to be the same kind of short-range missiles as those on the Spartan and Tomahawk.

no reason to drop the paste, but a wider selection of zentradi foodstuff's is needed. (the paste might be the zent equivelent to oatmeal, tasty wheat, or gruel).

Hehe, true.....Sorta like some kind of weird survival gruel?

Where did you get the name Fury for the VF-4 Rabid? Make it up?

Name Rtsurfer floated a few years back over at RDF HQ. I just use it to differentiate between the Robotech VF-4 and the more streamlined Macross VF-4.

::shrugs::[/quote]

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

In the very first eppisode is that the CVS & SLV we see in space?

I think you mean the 3rd episode, Space Fold. Yes, those do appear to be CVS and SLV ships in space. Whats more, Stan Bundy pointed out that later in that episode (when the SDF-01 is executing its spacefold) there is an SLV lifting out of the water by about 40-50m (or more) which seems to bear out the Anti-Grav theory.

We see Roy's Veritech enter space after rescuing Rick... or is he just sub-orbital?

Low orbit and/or sub-orbital is what I've been told. Unlike its successor, the VF-7 Sylphide, the Valkyrie cannot achieve Geo-Synchronous orbit (which we hear/see the Sylphide accomplish in Danger Zone).

Is it mentioned anywhere in the series where the masters come from. or is it as the narrator states in SC... they are a band of technovoyages? (I believe that Triol and Fantoma were creations of the Sentinals).

The only thing we know from Robotech is they came from another galaxy. There is a possibility that we see the Master's homeworld in Musica's Flower of Life song in Daydreamer. However, as some speculate, it could in fact be the first Invid homeworld. The Narrator does call them Techno-voyagers, yes.

Eps. #30 Viva Miriya
Narrator: Somewhere, in the recesses of another galaxy, the Robotech Masters.....

In SC, one episode has Emmerson saying that the RM's won't get their hands on the Protoculture Factory, and in a later episode saying that there is nothing left in the SDF-1. This leads me to believe that the SC knows or has said facility in their hands they just moved it.

Sorry, but you are mis-remembering. Emerson states that the Protoculture stockpiles are what the Masters are after. Emerson also didn't know exactly why the Masters were digging at the site of the SDF-01. What he figured out later and tried to use as a bargaining chip with the Masters in Catastrophe is irrelevant in this case. No one on Earth knew what was in the Ruins until it was too late to use.

Eps. #38 False Start
Emerson: We know the protoculture supply was their objective, gentlemen. You may be sure we will see them again.

Eps. #41 Half Moon
Emerson (thinking to himself): The only thing in that old wreck is useless, rotting Robotechnology. Well, one man's junk is another man's protoculture....

They are going to Battaloid, but they can't be AJACS (or can they) as the rear profile looks wrong.

You mean Dana's Story? Marie Crystal's unit is apparently using/testing the Ajax.

[Hystrix]

I would love to see this stuff corrected if PB ever gets the licence back. An expansion on Zentreadi and Robotech Master warships would rock!

[Snuffy]

Wow, Great Work RSCF!

Episode 2: Hunter is in the VF-1D and Minmei is being held in the hand of the Valkerie when the arm is shot off by lasers. It appears the lasers are fired from the missile volley Hunter is trying to dodge. I'm sure this has been discussed before, but please bring this newbie to this website up to speed.

- Veritechs: 212 VF-1 Valkyrie (120 VF-1A, 12 VF-1D, 50 VF-1J, 30 VF-1S). 300+ VF-1 Super Valkyrie (2010 February 11).

Clarification: 300+ VF-1 Super Valkeries, are these 300 Fast-Packs or another version of the Valkerie/Veritech?

I'll start reviewing the Macross saga to add notes.

[Janus]

RSCF's work here is just another reason I told Kevin that he would make a great resource for the new Robotech books when HG decides Palladium is the best place for Robotech. He knows his stuff!

[Jefffar]

Other than the inclusion of a few of the brief images that I suspect are either animation errors or in jokes by the animators, not bad.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Clarification: 300+ VF-1 Super Valkeries, are these 300 Fast-Packs or another version of the Valkerie/Veritech?

Hehe, 300+ FAST Packs, plus a number of GBP-1 & GBP-2 Armoured units. In fact, although I'm not too certain, I don't remember if there is a single unmodified VF-1 seen during Force of Arms. All of them have either gotten FAST-Pack Conversions or Grenade Box Protector Armour.

Palladium, sadly, got it wrong the first time around by stating the Super Veritech is a separate model from the Veritech. Its simply a VF-1 with armour bolted to certain parts, extra weapons packages, more powerful engines and a ton of extra reaction mass.

Of couse, part of the reason for the increased number of Veritechs aboard the SDF-1 is they took delivery of a number (at least its implied) when they came back to Earth as well as recieving the various components for the Super and Armoured modifications. I'm not sure the onboard factory could have produced such a rather large amount of

[glitterboy2098]

which, in the one 2 second scene it appeared, started as a standard VF-1A colored blue and equipped with normal armaments. given that it never appeared again, and yet the three fighters of that flight (max, ben, rick) did, i think we can safely leave this one out without causing too many problems. it would be easy to do as a house rule anyway.

I just checked that series of scenes, and you're wrong. The Endo-Space Armament DOES appear for more than 2 seconds. The only time its not readily visible (until the munitions are expended) is when Max's Valkyrie is in the background and cannot be readily told how its loaded out. Check it out again, trust me.

Also, Kawamori and the BW crew made it canon anyway. File it under the same thing as the VF-1R.

i'll conceed there, but according to the HG tech manual, they don't use it.

according to robotech.com:

Veritech VF-1A

Also known as: Cannon Fodder, "Brownies"
Standard Veritech Fighter





STATISTICS:

Designation: VF-1A
Mecha Class: Veritech fighter, aerospace capable
Crew: 1 pilot
Weight: 13.3 metric tons (dry)

FIGHTER MODE
Length: 14.2 m
Height: 3.8 m
Wingspan: 8.3-14.8 m
Max speed at sea level: Mach 1.4
Max speed at 10,000m: Mach 2.71
Max speed at 30,000m: Mach 3.87

GUARDIAN MODE
Length: 11.0 m
Height: 8.7 m
Wingspan: 8.3-14.8 m
Max speed at all altitudes: 500 kph

BATTLOID MODE
Height: 12.7 m
Depth: 4.0 m
Breadth: 7.3 m
Max speed at all altitudes: 194 kph
Max walking speed: 160 kph

ARMAMENT
1 x 3-barreled 55mm gatling cannon in a gun pod
1 light laser cannon, mounted on the head/turret
2 x light lasers in the nose (upgrade from sensors, only for Veritech fighters aboard the SDF-1)
4 wing hardpoints (2 per wing) each capable of carrying:
- 3 x 300mm medium range missiles, or
- 1 (inner) or 2 (outer) x 533mm long range missiles, or
- 1 x short-range multiple ejection 150mm missile launcher containing 15 missiles

no mention of external missiles out the wazoo.

again though, such an augmented loadout isn't hard to houserule, and given it has only 1 appearance, probably isn't a priority when writing stats.

i agree that we need stats for it, but remember it doesn't hve to transform

I know. Thats why I think adding the Grenade Box Protector designation fits. Its basically another version of the Armoured Veritech modifications. Its basically a VF-1A in extra armour. The only place where its hinted it transforms is in Macross Perfect Memory, but its not quite the same mecha (it shows it with a single NB-01 FAST-Pack).

ah. you see, a lot of fans keep claiming it is transformable based on MPM. i just assumed wrong about what you were claiming. from the orginal appreance, it just looks to be a GBP-1 with the extra missiles removed and additional space manuvering thrusters added, using FAST-pack parts.

given that even short range SAM's in RL qualify as at least MRM's with palladium's stats, i see no problem leaving the LRM's

I'm mostly concerned with people not thinking the Phalanx's missiles can travel hundreds of miles. I think the basic chart from Palladium needs to be scrapped altogether. It certainly needs to be updated to reflect current thinking in terms of missile technology.

the basic chart does need to be fixed, but not too drastically. i'd like to see the missiles all with the same speed and range performance, with just variant warhead and guidance packages. thus a light HE and a heavy HE have the same range, but the light has better than +3 to strike.
alternately, 2-3 standardized ranges/speeds, with light warheads having the longer ranges and heavy warheads with shorter.


upgrading to use some of the more recent tech in regards to vehicles and weapons, as long as it doesn't contradict the show, would be nice. (i usually do it anyway. like my F-14G2 Super Tomcat over in the Chaos earth forum. i used tech we have now to turn PB's CS F-14's from 1980's specs to proposed 21st century versions. it would actually work better in robotech. supercruise capable, sight tracking helmet HUD's with off-axis missile targeting, improved radars..... all the stuff you can easily claim all RT VT's have.)

i'd love to see MDC versions of things like Hellfires, Sidewinders, and the like too. for all those 'less advanced' nations to use.

might be a good spot to introduce mini-missiles. those covers look too small to be SRM's

I know that I asked Nanashi about them, IIRC, he indicated they are supposed to be the same kind of short-range missiles as those on the Spartan and Tomahawk.

that would imply a huge APC though, despite the otherwise regular scaled hatches for the crew.

perhaps just only a few missiles per launcher?

Where did you get the name Fury for the VF-4 Rabid? Make it up?

Name Rtsurfer floated a few years back over at RDF HQ. I just use it to differentiate between the Robotech VF-4 and the more streamlined Macross VF-4.

::shrugs::

i like it. if we stuck to the OSM name we'd have to ignore the existance F-35 Lightning II anyway. (final name announced last week by lockheed.)

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

i'll conceed there, but according to the HG tech manual, they don't use it.

again though, such an augmented loadout isn't hard to houserule, and given it has only 1 appearance, probably isn't a priority when writing stats.

Eh, I blame that more on Steve Yun being a lazy fob than anything else. He's sat on his arse with the Infopedia for quite a while. I had to get Tom Bateman to add the missile hardpoints to the Logan file cause Steve refused to do so, even when shown the drawing that clearly marked where they were. The Infopedia is incredibly incomplete and basically a joke.

from the orginal appreance, it just looks to be a GBP-1 with the extra missiles removed and additional space manuvering thrusters added, using FAST-pack parts.

Actually, in the animation, all that can be really discerned is the additional armour, the gunpod/armshield and the missile packs on the hips. There may be additional missiles in the other forearm (like the GBP-1) and maybe in the legs. Not sure. It is most certainly missing the NB-01 FAST Pack, making it different (in my mind) than the version shown in Macross Perfect Memory.

the basic chart does need to be fixed, but not too drastically.

I'd rather have missiles based on those shown in the series and/or expounded upon (surprise, surprise) by the novels. Even the RRGs listings would be better (since they use a combination). That way, we can have drawings of each specific missile type (and most of them having been sketched out in the OSM, with a few exceptions, mostly from <i>Southern Cross</i>). I realise it makes Robotech less compatible with Rifts and the rest of Palladium, but I really think thats how it should be.

perhaps just only a few missiles per launcher?

I think it was like x6 for each, maybe only x4. Won't know until Nanashi's webpage comes back. I tried to find the thread on MacrossWorld where I asked him about it, but no luck so far.

i like it. if we stuck to the OSM name we'd have to ignore the existance F-35 Lightning II anyway. (final name announced last week by lockheed.)

I don't know as the VF-X-4 Technology Demonstrator is ever named. I know that Tommy (yea, this comes as no surprise) didn't give the YVF-4 a name either (and got the designation wrong to boot....it cannot be a YF, thats for a conventional fighter). I like it too, and I think Rtsurfer would be tickled pink to know he named it.

[jedi078]

I'd rather have missiles based on those shown in the series and/or expounded upon (surprise, surprise) by the novels. Even the RRGs listings would be better (since they use a combination). That way, we can have drawings of each specific missile type (and most of them having been sketched out in the OSM, with a few exceptions, mostly from <i>Southern Cross</i>). I realise it makes Robotech less compatible with Rifts and the rest of Palladium, but I really think thats how it should be.

I took the missile listing from the uRRG and gave them RPG stats, so now I don't have generic missiles (SRM, MRM LRM etc). The added benefit is that I can include a number of RL missiles if/when the PC's need to scrounge.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

I took the missile listing from the uRRG and gave them RPG stats, so now I don't have generic missiles (SRM, MRM LRM etc). The added benefit is that I can include a number of RL missiles if/when the PC's need to scrounge.

Good idea. Might require some sort of tinkering, though, to get the onboard software suites to recognize one another, wouldn't it? I think the RRG had something similar, because I know the Avenger II and Sea Sergeant files listed the HARM, Sidewinder and Hellfire missiles (IIRC).

[jedi078]

Good idea. Might require some sort of tinkering, though, to get the onboard software suites to recognize one another, wouldn't it?

Yeah and the same would apply if you mounted Zent missiles to RDF mecha.

Even today you can't just slap a Sidewinder onto a SU-27.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

The six anti-ship missiles are a lot of things, but not an "animation error."

Ok, oreillyrel, we've done this dance at Rt.com. I'm going to be courteous and not be rude, but I made this statement for a reason, since you are new to this board. There was an argument earlier where someone pointed out that the animation in several places during Force of Arms shows a noticeable gap between the 3 missiles on each wing. Some wanted to have the Valkyrie as having 3 hardpoints per wing, while I was rather adamant that there were 2, and only 2, hardpoints per wing and that the outer hardpoint could load 2 long range missiles.

These weapons do appear onscreen, but "Endo-Space" is a made-up fan term. (So it "All White.")

I will take your word for that. By the by, is there a designation for this modification?

The name "Jotun" is fan fiction.

Yes, which is why I said perhaps the GBP-2 designation would fit better....

According Robotech.com's Infopedia:
"Despite breathtaking performance due to the latest advances in Robotechnology, its staggering cost and complexity prevented it from entering mass production as the mainstay fighter of the Robotech Expeditionary Force."

And here is where we get into trouble. The Robotech.com Infopedia is not only rife with misinformation (reference the rather ludicrous United Nations of Earth Government), but its is far from complete. Besides, if you noticed what I said, I said 'for a short while there was a full production model', not that it entered mass production. That may be a rather fine distinction (and I will give you the benefit of the doubt), but I'm trying to indicate that perhaps it was adopted in limited means. The Sentinels doesn't count anymore, so why assume that the REF only had the Alpha, Condor and Logan?

(The name "Fury" is fan fiction.)

Ok, I stated that before. No need to do it again......

Off-topic note:
Atmospheric-escape booster pods (not the ones seen in episode 30) can be added to the VF-1 Valkyrie in the Japanese Macross works--they're just not seen in Robotech (just like the VF-4 Lightning III).

Would these differ from the NB-01 pods?

There's no number of missiles listed for this fighter in the original Macross material.

True, but that doesn't mean squat at this point. You have to have a payload capacity listed....

Since the real but cancelled A-12 design has already taken the 12 spot, there is no reason to assume that the Avenger II here is the "A-12."

Perhaps, perhaps not. There is a fine line as to where our history and Robotech's history diverged.

Since the real but cancelled YF-23 design has already taken the 23 spot, there is no reason to assume that the Dragon II here is the "F-23."

Again, the YF-23 is a post-Robotech real world creation. There is a point to where you have to split the time, and there is no reason to have a modern US fighter be designated with a -203 at this time.....

The original Japanese Macross material doesn't say that those objects are missile bay hatches. Nanashi is not the most reliable source for Macross info.

Then I stand corrected....

The United States Army doesn't think it's nonsense

On that I stand corrected, but the simple fact remains its an Assault Rifle, unless you think military procurment dropped back to pre-Vietnam thinking. I would hardly call the weapon Hikaru/Rick is shown carrying as a machinegun/automatic rifle in the same vein as the BAR.

The "RL-1" and "60mm" are fan fiction specifications.

Ok, fine. Care to elaborate on what it is?

This fan fiction missile count is different from the Japanese Macross missile count.

Which is?

There is no official capacity count.

This falls under the same thing I stated before about havin to enumerate. If that means guessing, then that means guessing.

The official material doesn't say anything about carrying several mecha, just an escape capsule.

Don't care. Season's Greetings shows Khyron's Glaug and 2 Regults jumping up into the bay of a Theatre Scout.....

[Gomen_Nagai]

heheheh. I am glad someone finally showed these snobs what was fan fiction and what was not. In short, I'd institute NONE of these fan fiction changes and just make changes so that the Mecha have weapons appropriate to their Listings. ... and at least include all the craft from the show. (or at least include rules and tables for Test mecha and mecha upgrades.).

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

1. "VF-7" is not the official designation of the Sylphide. According to Robotech.com's Infopedia, the 7 spot is taken by the different VF-X-7 test unit.

2. The Syphide is not shown or heard to achieve geo-synchronous orbit, unless there are blue skies with clouds at 36,000 km.

3. In the original Japanese Southern Cross, the Sylphide is an atmospheric fighter for the air force units.

Ok, I'm going to be nice, again.

Point 1: The Infopedia is riddled with misinformation. The simple fact is that Steve Yun is too lazy to clean up the files. That is outdated information.

Point 2: Ah, we're going to go through this again? I'm NOT talking about those scenes in Southern Cross, because the scenes (as shown) in Robotech were purposely darkened. Whats more, the MBS broadcaster states that the Masters vessels are at 36,000km and is further backed up by Col. Rochelle stating that there are still MIA's 'floating somewhere out in space'.

Point 3: Doesn't matter one iota. The Sylphide is referred to as a Veritech not once, but twice. Once by the Narrator and once by a character within the series. The only other time its referred to as anything is in Danger Zone and they are called 'Robotech fighters', which would seem to denote they are NOT conventional weapons platforms.

We see them in this episode, but it isn't said that they're on their home planet.

Never said it was....

and even the nearest known galaxy is 7,700 parsecs away.

Which can be read as seventy-seven HUNDRED parsecs. Nice try.

heheheh. I am glad someone finally showed these snobs what was fan fiction and what was not.

When you actually contribute something, Gomen, I'll consider being nicer to you. Until then, expect my scorn....

[Snuffy]

In either Countdown or Space Fold, we see a VF-1S piloted by Roy Folker firing a burst or pulse from the head lasers towards Zentraedi Battlepods.

Later in ....Force of Arms(?), we see a VF-1J piloted by Rick Hunter firing a single beam laser as a cutting tool to free Lisa Hayes from the Grand Cannon.

RPG referred to all head lasers as a defense and/or cutting tool.

[Kagashi]

Since the real but cancelled A-12 design has already taken the 12 spot, there is no reason to assume that the Avenger II here is the "A-12."

Perhaps, perhaps not. There is a fine line as to where our history and Robotech's history diverged.

Since the real but cancelled YF-23 design has already taken the 23 spot, there is no reason to assume that the Dragon II here is the "F-23."

Again, the YF-23 is a post-Robotech real world creation. There is a point to where you have to split the time, and there is no reason to have a modern US fighter be designated with a -203 at this time..........

Interesting points from many angles. However, I would like to interject one point. I personally do not like the idea of mixing real world stuff with Robotech. Since the story was created in the 80's it is assumed that history in RT was built up as such, but then with the SDF-1 showing up, our two worlds became different.

For example, would the F-22 still be under development/modification today if we really had Veritechs to work with? I dont think so. So trying to fit in the F-22, Su-27, F-35, Eurofighter, and even the MiG-29 would be pointless.

In short, I support Rabid's point of view.

[Jefffar]

There definitely needs to be a break point between reality and robotech. I find 1985 works as good as any.

[jedi078]

If one REALLY wanted to use a break point between reality and Robotech it should be 1999.......

But I will use be using 2009 as a breakpoint....

This includes helmet mounted HUDs, missiles/bombs (JDAM’s etc), aircraft (F-22A, F/A-18E/F, F-35, SU-27, Eurofighter etc.), Armor (Stryker's, AAV's w/Bradley suspensions etc), firearms (M-16A4's, M-468, MP-7's etc).

Besides SOME of the stuff in Robotech is wanting against modern tech, such as stealth technology.

Might as well bring it up to par.......heck I see the ASC using the F-22A and the proposed FB-22 (or FB-23) instead of the crappy planes seen on screen. As well as B-2’s, and F-117’s.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

In short, like the other unseen capabilities being claimed about this unnamed fighter in the animation, we do not "clearly see" that this fighter is capable of reaching 36,000 km. Indeed, the animation and dialogue make a point of it not being at 36,000 km.

That's why:
* The dialogue singles out the lone ship from the "remainder of the massive invasion armada" at 36,000 km.
* This ship is seen in blue skies near clouds. We don't find those at 36,000 km.
* Emerson, the narrator, and the ATAC 15th describe the fighter squadrons' battle with the "ship"--singular not plural.
* The unnamed fighters are clearly seen piloted by Tactical Air Force pilots
* The original Japanese Southern Cross assigns these fighters (known as Sylphide in there) to the air force, not the armored space corps or space corps.

Since I'm leaving for work in a few minutes, I can only address this point at this time.

The series DOES state its in space.....

Eps. #41 Half Moon
Episode #42 Preview
Narrator:.....The United Earth Defense Forces plan to take the battle into space to protect their home world and challenge their alien foes. Using the main bulk of their Tactical Armoured Space Corps, the Robotech Defenders plan to test the mettle of their mysterious enemies.


So, you were saying?

I'm not going to dispute that in the original Southern Cross, yes, the battle in Trouble City takes place well inside Glorie's atmosphere. The simple fact is that it doesn't matter what the original series states as it was changed for Robotech. The OSM force structure doesn't work in Robotech, either, as Marie Crystal is called by Dennis Brown a 'hero of the Air Corps' in The Hunters.

There is also the fact that if you watch the broadcast version of Robotech (as seen in the Legacy set) you will notice that the animation was purposely darkened in some way by Harmony Gold. I have no clue what process they used or how. I'll try and get an official answer (or as close to one as I one can get) just to satisfy your curiosity.

[Jefffar]

If one REALLY wanted to use a break point between reality and Robotech it should be 1999.......

But I will use be using 2009 as a breakpoint....

This includes helmet mounted HUDs, missiles/bombs (JDAM’s etc), aircraft (F-22A, F/A-18E/F, F-35, SU-27, Eurofighter etc.), Armor (Stryker's, AAV's w/Bradley suspensions etc), firearms (M-16A4's, M-468, MP-7's etc).

Besides SOME of the stuff in Robotech is wanting against modern tech, such as stealth technology.

Might as well bring it up to par.......heck I see the ASC using the F-22A and the proposed FB-22 (or FB-23) instead of the crappy planes seen on screen. As well as B-2’s, and F-117’s.

You could break at 1985 and still have those things. They would just be developed under different timelines and circumstances.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Besides SOME of the stuff in Robotech is wanting against modern tech, such as stealth technology.

You could also, as Jeffar pointed out, still have them under a different scenarios. The Raptor, Nighthawk and Spirit were all certainly Cold War-era weapons that survived into the new paradigm. But, in Robotech, the Cold War likely continued and is what ultimately sparked The Global War of the late 90s.

I hate to invoke Voodoo Science (cause thats all it really is, truth be told) but there is the probability that the alien technology uncovered rendered low-observability obselete to the point where it was considered unnecessary to try and make a plane that was 'stealthy'. That would explain why the UEF has the Dragon II and later Falcon II instead of the Raptor or Lightning II.

I know its a dodge, believe me. I also know that its unsatisfying, but thats about the only thing I can think would make any sense.

[jedi078]

I hate to invoke Voodoo Science (cause thats all it really is, truth be told) but there is the probability that the alien technology uncovered rendered low-observability obselete to the point where it was considered unnecessary to try and make a plane that was 'stealthy'. That would explain why the UEF has the Dragon II and later Falcon II instead of the Raptor or Lightning II.

I know its a dodge, believe me. I also know that its unsatisfying, but thats about the only thing I can think would make any sense.

Well Voodoo science, and being dodgy isn’t going to cut it.

Besides Stan Bundy worked in the idea that the F-203 (Dragon II) and A-12 were put into production to replace the losses of varies U.S Combat aircraft during the GCW:

The F-203 program was initiated during the Global Civil War to replace the quickly-depleted F-14 (no longer in production) & F-15 (too dependent on overseas parts) fighters.

The AV-15 is a cheap ground & naval attack aircraft that entered service during the Global War, to provide a cheap, quickly built, means of replacing the quickly depleted forces of attack aircraft (A-6, F/A-18, and A-10).

The following is from my F-4 Phantom write up (you can see where I have inserted Stan ideas) which takes things further:

At the onset of the Global Civil the F-4G Wild Weasel had already been replaced by the F-16CJ/DJ. But as combat losses of F-16CJ/DJ mounted many F-4G’s were reactivated. Also as the war progressed many of the U.S. Navy’s F-14’s and U.S. Air Force’s F-15’s were lost in combat and replacement were desperately needed.

Although the successors to these two aircraft, the F-18E/F Super Hornet and the F-15MTTS “Cheetah” respectively were in the design phase, it would be some time before they could be mass produced. It was then decided that as a stop-gap measure aircraft was needed. That stopgap measure was the F-203 program. Thus the F-203 program was initiated during the Global Civil War to replace the quickly-depleted F-14 (no longer in production) & F-15 (too dependent on overseas parts) fighter. The F-4X program was initiated to because military planners knew it would take some time to start up production of the F-203 (the design phase was complete as the F-203 was intended to be a cheap alternative to the F-15 much like the F-20 was for the F-16). Thus close to 500 mothballed F-4’s, found at the Aerospace Maintenance and Regeneration Center at Davis-Monthan AFB, Arizona, otherwise known as the "bone yard" would be returned to service in the interim until the F-203 could be produced.

Instead of just reactivating the fighters for service as is, the F-4’s received an avionics package that added two feet to the nose of the aircraft. This avionics package was originally intended to be placed in the F-15F “Cheetah” and F-18E Super Hornet. The avionics package gave the aircraft the long range strike edge it would need against Eastern Co-Prosperity Sphere aircraft, which could easily out maneuver an F-4X in short range combat. A pair of Conformal Fuel Tanks located on the back of the fighter (much like the F-16 Block 60 does) gave the F-4X increased range. The result was the F-4X Super Phantom, which saw service with both the U.S. Navy and U.S. Air Force. Due to the wartime conditions separate U.S. Navy and U.S. Air Force versions of the F-4X Super Phantom were not produced and all super phantoms were capable of landing/taking off from allied aircraft carriers, conducting bombing runs like F-15E’s, or intercept cruise missiles like the F-14. F-4X’s were rarely fielded in squadrons composed entirely of F-4X’s but sent to those U.S. Navy and U.S. Air Force squadrons that desperately needed replacement aircraft.

The F-4X proved vastly superior to Eastern Co-Prosperity Sphere in long range combat, but seriously lacked the ability to fight and survive in close quarter aerial combat, this attributed to many F-4X losses, more so then F-14 or F-15 losses.

Those F-4X Super Phantoms and F-4G Wild Weasel’s that did survive the GCW and the subsequent anti-unification movement had upgraded armor added in 2009 when the SDF-1 disappeared. Those that survived the Zentraedi Rain of Death were relegated to reserve squadrons and some even saw action during the Malcontent uprisings (usually because some hothead Veritech pilot wanted to get back up into the air after being shot down and returned to base). It is not known if any F-4’s saw combat during the 2nd Robotech War or Invid Invasion.

Of course this all leads to the F-22 and F-35 being in the design phase (as well as the Eurofighter, SU-27 etc etc etc). when the SDF-1 crashes to Earth.

Sorry about the long somewhat off topic post people.

[ShadowLogan]

I hate to invoke Voodoo Science (cause thats all it really is, truth be told) but there is the probability that the alien technology uncovered rendered low-observability obselete to the point where it was considered unnecessary to try and make a plane that was 'stealthy'. That would explain why the UEF has the Dragon II and later Falcon II instead of the Raptor or Lightning II.

This is not as voodoo as you might think, remember Stealth does not necessarily make you invisible to all radar, it just makes your radar return smaller (more senstive your radar...). Stealth technology is also expensive.

So perhaps Stealth aircraft and such do exist, only in much smaller numbers within a larger conventional force (we just don't see it).

There is also the fact that if you watch the broadcast version of Robotech (as seen in the Legacy set) you will notice that the animation was purposely darkened in some way by Harmony Gold. I have no clue what process they used or how. I'll try and get an official answer (or as close to one as I one can get) just to satisfy your curiosity.

Which does not necessarily prove that it was at 36,000km. The Sky begins to darken long before that at high altidue.

If you watch the shuttle launches, and I mean watch them from NASA TV or streaming from their website and not news networks, this does become apparant that the sky does darken before the shuttle reaches orbital height.

IINM the 36000km statement is also a description of the RM flagship. Now was it THE flagship or just A flagship? We know that the Masters have superiors (Elders). Could THE flagship of the fleet be the Elders and the Masters ship just A flagship directing a specific theatre of operations? I know the Masters did not want the Elders to join them right away, we also do not know what happened to them. Audio suggests they might have joined them off screen.

The 36,000km is from a MBS news commentator correct? What if he made an error and the ship he was refering to was 36,000 meters (not kilometers)? (W0hich works out to roughly 100,000+ ft). Does anyone else use the stated altitude? The 36,000km could also be in reference to the bulk of the fleet to.

I think you mean the 3rd episode, Space Fold. Yes, those do appear to be CVS and SLV ships in space. Whats more, Stan Bundy pointed out that later in that episode (when the SDF-01 is executing its spacefold) there is an SLV lifting out of the water by about 40-50m (or more) which seems to bear out the Anti-Grav theory.

There is also shot(s) of vessels over the city.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

The 36,000km is from a MBS news commentator correct? What if he made an error and the ship he was refering to was 36,000 meters (not kilometers)?

The 36,000 kilometer mark appears to be correct simply because in False Start, the same thing is stated, that an invasion force parked itself in orbit at 36,000km (this happens right as they switch scenes to introduce Captain Komodo). Since it happens more than once, it should be assumed that its correct.

As for the how far up the battle takes place, as I stated, the Narrator says it takes place in space. Since all directions point to 36,000km, I would wager that the MBS broadcaster erred on that side as opposed to the heighth side. As for the 'clouds', again, the scenes were purposely darkened, so come up with a rational explanation: a weird borealis affect.....

[glitterboy2098]

or a Mothership from the fleet was in the process of entering the atmosphere, and the fighters were stratospheric at the time.

was the 36,000km number describing the battle itself, or are you assuming 36,000km because that number appears several times elsewhere and the battle was supposed to take place in space?

could the broadcaster have been saying the mothership had returned to 36,000km orbit?

You could also, as Jeffar pointed out, still have them under a different scenarios. The Raptor, Nighthawk and Spirit were all certainly Cold War-era weapons that survived into the new paradigm. But, in Robotech, the Cold War likely continued and is what ultimately sparked The Global War of the late 90s.

I hate to invoke Voodoo Science (cause thats all it really is, truth be told) but there is the probability that the alien technology uncovered rendered low-observability obselete to the point where it was considered unnecessary to try and make a plane that was 'stealthy'. That would explain why the UEF has the Dragon II and later Falcon II instead of the Raptor or Lightning II.

I know its a dodge, believe me. I also know that its unsatisfying, but thats about the only thing I can think would make any sense.

well, they were fighting a world war. superior planes later might not have been as important as any planes now. the F-22, F-35, ect might have been developed, and might have been deployed, in limited numbers. but one F-22 would cost quite a bit more than a non-stealth equivelent, so building large #'s of F-22's might not have been a priority.

instead of the new standard, it would become the new Silver bullet.

[Sgt Anjay]

The animation was created specifically for Super Dimensional Cavalry:Southern Cross. It was used to make Robotech, and is important as such, but if the dialogue of Robotech contradicts it deliberately, then the animation taken literally is OSM, *NOT* Robotech. OSM does not trump dialogue from the series, or we're not discussing Robotech, we're discussing SDF:Macross, SDC:Southern Cross, and GC Mospeada.
Now, the point that this ship keeps being referred to individually as opposed to part of a larger formation is a strong point. Except, of course, that it doesnt mean anything about the ship's elevation unless you already want it to. The Masters were both blockading the entire planet, as well as searching it for signs of the protoculture matrix and sources of significant protoculture. That certain ships, especially one as independent and powerful as a city ship, should be seperated enough to be singled out for attack is no great surprise since the Masters only had so many ships to go around. There's plenty of reason for it to have been independent without a need for creating a change in altitude, an altitude that the dialogue keeps coming back to again and again.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Regardless of the often contradicted narrator (in a "next episode" preview, no less), the part of the battle we see with the unnamed fighters (called Sylphide in Southern Cross) in the actual episode still takes place in blue skies with clouds--in contrast with the black, unsurprisingly cloudless space scenes we see in other episodes.

Ok, we'll go with your assertion from earlier that the Infopedia is the primary source of information:

Supreme Commander Leonard deploys the bulk of their tactical armored space corps to engage the enemy in space in an attempt to avoid turning the planet surface into a battleground, but his strategy is based on insufficient data. Most of the troops are wiped out while the survivors are left to drift helplessly in space.

Infopedia Episode Guide: Danger Zone

Had enough yet? You're the one engaged in fan fiction at this point, oreillyrel. You're the one claiming 'Oh, but thats not what it means' and/or 'Thats not what we see'. You're the one speculating about things. So, what is correct, the dialogue from the series, the Infopedia or what?

I'm willing to concede that you are right that the 2nd battle does apparently take place inside our atmosphere. I am not willing to concede that the 1st battle takes place inside our atmosphere or that Sylphide is merely a conventional fighter, when not only does the series state its a Veritech, but there sure are alot of parts that LOOK like they should transform on that frame.

[Jefffar]

Rabid, haven't you, in the past, cited the Infopedia as a poor source?


At any rate, perhaps the battle started in space and was pushed back into the atmosphere?

[Jefffar]

Actually, the entire F-16 family is offically named Fighting Falcon. The F-16XL, had it gone into servce, would probably been called something like Strike Falcon seeng as it was going for the same contract that eventually went to the F-15E.

[jedi078]

Some of my PC's are about to get some of these in my online game...

Where did you get the name Fury for the VF-4 Rabid? Make it up?

I KNOW Lightning shouldn't be used since the F-35 might get that name.

Why not just use the Corsair or the Wildcat...since the it seems that they are using existing fighter types as new models (this holds especially true if they go with Lightning for the F-35. Both were particularly tough fighter craft. I would lobby for the name Corsair...it was known to have shot down Mig-15 jet fighters in the Korean War. Not bad for a prop plane. And it was a VERY tough airframe.

Good point!

Funny though one of the RDF Marine Squadrons in my game is the Wildcats.

Also back in high school my playing group was using the name "Viper" for the VF-4's as a homage to the original Battlestar Galactia series.

What about if RDF a theater classification, not an actual title? Since they were fighting forces with the that level of tech.

I like Rapid Deployment Forces better.

I have an additional question...since we're talking about the rapid Deployment Forces, are there Marines?

I wouldn’t go for theater classification of Rapid Deployment Force, since the RDF covers both Earth and the Space surrounding it (i.e. Moon).

As for Marines some people include an RDF Marine Corps in their RPG games (I do) and fan fiction. It woudl come down to GM preference.

Actually, the entire F-16 family is offically named Fighting Falcon. The F-16XL, had it gone into servce, would probably been called something like Strike Falcon seeng as it was going for the same contract that eventually went to the F-15E.

I could see some F-16 derivitives in use by the RDF, such as the Japanese F-2 (it’s a bit bigger the your standard F-16), and the F-16 Block 60 (Israel has them).

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Rabid, haven't you, in the past, cited the Infopedia as a poor source?

Yes I have. I was simply reversing course to show oreillyrel that even the Infopedia disagrees with his assertion, since he refuses to acknowledge the Narrator, which backs up Rochelle's statements about losses AND the battle being in space. Speaking of which, oreillyrel, you DO remember that there was a smash-n-grab performed by the Masters that touched off the first battle in Danger Zone, dont you? Remember those 'non-combatant and ground personnel' casualties?

At any rate, perhaps the battle started in space and was pushed back into the atmosphere?

That I will concede, 1st battle in space, 2nd battle inside the atmosphere.

[Marcantony]

Ok,

since I got such great responses from my last two threads, I figured I would go to the area where my knowledge is the least: Macross. This will also include information on Book 2 & Book 3. So, on we go....

::swings his Scythe of Hardcore Geekdom Doom::

Lets start off with controversy and get one of the biggest things out of the way. There is NO official organization known as The Robotech Defense Force. The closest we hear is a Narrator line from Blitzkrieg about Rick Hunter being 'the robotech defense forces newest recruit'. The main problem is that time and again, the force structure is referred to as The United Earth Forces, which is the military branch of the United Earth Government. Robotech Defense Forces sounds more like an informal name like the old Soviet Strategic Rocket Forces. So, dispose of RDF, since there is only one RDF and thats a Rapid Deployment Force.
------------------------------
What about if RDF a theater classification, not an actual title? Since they were fighting forces with the that level of tech.

I like Rapid Deployment Forces better.

I have an additional question...since we're talking about the rapid Deployment Forces, are there Marines?

That would be copyright of the Twilight 2000 game.

[jedi078]

Some of my PC's are about to get some of these in my online game...

Where did you get the name Fury for the VF-4 Rabid? Make it up?

I KNOW Lightning shouldn't be used since the F-35 might get that name.

Oh we are, are we. MMMmmmmmm. Damnit I'm destroid pilot.

The way your rolls are going you may not BE a living, breathing, Destriod pilot for much longer....

[ShadowLogan]

R.S.C.F

The two sources you sited for Robotech Information in this thread:

"Egan Loo's Macross Compendium Mecha Section" does state that they do not have anything to do with Robotech. So using it as such can be helpful, but does not have to be taken as "gospil"

"The Unofficial Robotech Reference Guide" is Unofficial, even says so in their name. So some of the information they present may not even be accurate (like the VF-4 issue), and they even admit to being picky about what they choose to include ("Centaur" VHT design notes is an example). Some of the stuff they present is also based purely on speculation.

I have not taken the time (honestly) to check your lists against the uRRG to see if anything you included is speculation on their part. Like I said before some of your "flaws" might not be flaws. Do we really know what resources Palladium had at their disposal when they wrote the RPG? Their material may have been much more limited when it was written. Some of which could have possibly been fixed with a Rifter article when PB had the licence. Why it was not I do not know.

On the CVS & SLV class ships I do agree that they have the ability to be configured for Space Flight. Weather that spaceflight configuration has to be done in dock or can be done out in the field I do not know. Gloval's comment could also be taken that those vessels where not in proper configuration, but could be made so. Seeing as Macross Island probably had a Naval Port it does not help clear up the issue if the ships had to go into dock for the modifications or could do them out as sea.

The amount of re-Entry protection is also based on re-entry speed. IIRC the SDF-1 used the Pinpoint barrier (apparently) on both bows of the ship during re-entry. That leads me to suspect that the ship's thermal protection system was not up to the task alone of handling the re-entry speeds the SDF-1 did in that instance.

On the VF-X-4/VF-4 issue, the dropped status of the VF-4 is official in the new comics "From the Stars". So it is not just the Infopedia that makes that claim. Though given Palladium's way of using prototypes- stats might be appropriate. The problem is that to avoid copyrights IINM PB and HG would have to be careful about things wouldn't they? Because you know people are going to want to see what the other modes look like. In the RT.com Infopedia's Mecha Data Base most of the information is "classified", so non-Fighter Mode would have to be different than OSM Macross VF-4 Valkaryie incarnations would they not? Then again Macross purists might complain about RT's take on the VF-4...

On the Slyhpid's reach.

Point 1: The Infopedia is riddled with misinformation. The simple fact is that Steve Yun is too lazy to clean up the files. That is outdated information

I agree it is in need of updating and finishing. Weather it contains misinformation I guess depends on what is being used for source material by HG employees. (I am not trying to defend Steve Yun either here)

There is also the fact that if you watch the broadcast version of Robotech (as seen in the Legacy set) you will notice that the animation was purposely darkened in some way by Harmony Gold. I have no clue what process they used or how. I'll try and get an official answer (or as close to one as I one can get) just to satisfy your curiosity.

Are you sure that it was done purposely? And on my set it only appears in one scene that lasts maybe 5sec otherwise its is blue skies before and after.

Is that darkening also apparant in other versions of Robotech? Does anyone else have a VHS copy from the televised broadcast to independently compare it to?

The 36,000 kilometer mark appears to be correct simply because in False Start, the same thing is stated,

I will not argue over the "False Start" episode, but in "Southern Cross" the next episode in the background of the Operations Meeting the CityShip (on a monitor) is clearly shown in blue skies there and in the battle. I do not recall off the top of my head if any statements are made about that particular ship's altitude, but it does show that the Masters did have atleast one CityShip take up position within Earth's Atmosphere near Monument City for a period of time. So it can be shown that positions did change between episodes.

"Volunteers" IINM has the same CityShip return to a higher orbit.

"Danger Zone" may just be showing the vessel at different altitudes for the same epsiode to. At the start it might have been at 36,000km, but it could have lowered it's altitude before the attack, but after the MBS broadcaster, we just do not see it or are told. There is also the possibility that the First Attack in "DZ" was much more widespread than what was shown on screen. Something that would not contradict what we are shown.

I think you are dismissing the Robotech Elders issue. The Masters do answer to the Elders. The basis for determing the Flagship was based on intercepted communications correct? How can we be sure that off-screen the Masters where not reporting back to the Elders. Who would be in the Flagship of the fleet. The 36,000km statement does not apply to all vessels in the fleet.

As for the 'clouds', again, the scenes were purposely darkened, so come up with a rational explanation: a weird borealis affect.....

Please provide some evidence. Both the purposely darkened and the weired borealis effect. Links if at all possible.

In differences of dialogue versus animation, I tend to go with what we are shown trumping the dialogue. Not the otherway around.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Is that darkening also apparant in other versions of Robotech? Does anyone else have a VHS copy from the televised broadcast to independently compare it to?

I do, and yes, its the same as on the Legacy set. Whats more, every other source agrees its in space. If all of them are wrong, then you might as well state clearly that you are speculating as well.

Please provide some evidence. Both the purposely darkened and the weired borealis effect. Links if at all possible.

I did. The Narrator, Colonel Rochelle AND the Robotech.com Infopedia. Take you pick.

As to the borealis affect, here ya go, the aurora austrailis as seen from outerspace. Here is one of the aurora borealis seen from the Space Shuttle.

Just to speculate, since that is what you are doing, it could be very likely that the Master's city-ship is venting atmosphere, causing that 'weird borealis effect'.

In differences of dialogue versus animation, I tend to go with what we are shown trumping the dialogue. Not the otherway around.

Then you believe when Zor was killed half a million years ago, he was wearing Southern Cross armour instead of a more rational explanation that his psyche was projecting what he saw into his dreams?

[ShadowLogan]

I did. The Narrator, Colonel Rochelle AND the Robotech.com Infopedia. Take you pick

I meant that the darkening was intentionally done by HG to imply it was in space. IINM you mentioned earlier that even you where not sure how it was done (which could mean it was unintentional) and where going to look into it.

"There is also the fact that if you watch the broadcast version of Robotech (as seen in the Legacy set) you will notice that the animation was purposely darkened in some way by Harmony Gold. I have no clue what process they used or how. I'll try and get an official answer (or as close to one as I one can get) just to satisfy your curiosity."-R.S.C.F pg3 of this thread (2nd post on page).

Colonel Rochelle could have been talking about the totals to date. Or the Battle was more widespread than what we see. I would go with the more wide spread. There is also the possibility that some of the attack force had escaped into low orbit (which is 100miles IINM).

The Infopedia Episode Guide is not always accurate either, the mecha writeups I have not seen any indication that they are wrong in comparision to the show (missing something yes, but not wrong in comparision to the show). And the Vxx-# (for what ever mecha) does not count as none of the mecha are described that way in the show. We hear "Alpha", but not "VFA-6" (or VAF-6).

As for the narrator, space starts at 62mile/~100km up (the altitude SpaceShipOne needed to win the X-prize a few years back). And by that point the sky is black.

The "flagship" altitude could be taken a few ways. It does not mean that the ships always sat at that altitude. We know they can move quickly if need be ("Half-Moon" when the CityShip came to the aide of Zor Prime's landing party). "Southern Cross" shows they can take up positions in the atmosphere. Even you concede the DZ-A2 was in the atmosphere. And visually the there is no difference about the environment on screen aside from a short 5sec scene that appears to have been "darkened". There is also no indication (audio or visual) given that the ship has moved between DZ-A1 and DZ-A2. (DZ-A# = "Danger Zone" Ep. - Attack) is there?

Have you considered the "darkening" to be the attack force (or elements there of) passing through the CityShip's shadow? It is 5miles long on one axis, the attack force was approaching it from the ground up. That means depending on the position of the sun some of the craft might pass through the ship's shadow. Which could be conveyed in this manner.

As to the borealis affect, here ya go, the aurora austrailis as seen from outerspace. Here is one of the aurora borealis seen from the Space Shuttle.

The first picture does not help/hinder you. Its a top down view of the globe with a green auroa. (Clouds are white).

The 2nd picture does not help your case either clouds are white, that is a colored stream. The shape is also wrong. Clouds are not distinct shapes, aurora are more "streamer" like. And I used the term "aurora space" at google's image search and went through several pages (12+) and did not see anything like what you are hoping to find.

Then you believe when Zor was killed half a million years ago, he was wearing Southern Cross armour instead of a more rational explanation that his psyche was projecting what he saw into his dreams?

I'm not sure I would buy into the 1/2 million year deal, as we know some Zentraedi records are falsified. Which ones and to what extent is not known. That could effect Gloval's statement of 1/2million years, Exedore could neither confirm nor deny it.

Zor Prime was not wearing SC armour, he was in a fabric uniform. No I do not take that view your suggesting as its shown that we are seeing what is going on inside his head, and at the same time his reactions at the time replaying themselves in his current body.

And I said when audio and visuals where in conflict, there is no conflict that I can see here as there are a vareity of ways to portray just what is going on inside someone's head, especially in animation.

Completely off the topic of the Slyphid, at RobotechResearch under the Technical Diagrams they have an image of the Spartan/Gladiator. Doing a closeup view reveals what was labled a "light firing turret" located just below the chest GunCluster. This is a seperate turret from the top mounted one. I am not sure on the origin of the image though (it uses 32mm for the GunCluster).

[Sgt Anjay]

They took moving drawings which told three seperate stories. They took out the words and music and added in new words and music to tell the story they wanted to tell. This story is Robotech. The moving drawings contradicting the story is no big surprise; it was bound to happen here and there because they had limited control over them; the moving drawing are still telling the three seperate stories they were designed to tell. If the writers of Robotech dont get more say so than the artists who drew Super Dimension Fortress:Macross, Super Dimension Cavalry: Southern Cross, or Genesis Climber Mospeada, then we're not discussing Robotech. Sure, fans can not like this and decide they believe something different, or ignore the meaning and intent of the story. But that makes those views fanfic. Weren't you the one firmly against such being called true?
Interestingly enough, in the original comic books which adapted the series, where they could control the pictures, the SDF-2 is indeed there, and very visible. The intent there isn't up in the air. So you can have your own fanfic Robotech which follows SDF:Macross, in which the SDF-2 isn't there. Or you can follow Robotech's story. Mind you, I'm aware that ignoring the pretty visuals for the actual substance, the story, is distasteful to most. That doesn't make it less valid.

[Sgt Anjay]

That's quite the condescending use of quotation marks around the words meaning and intent. Repeatedly, too. Very nice.

And it's all well and good to call the intent nebulous...but it isn't at all, in any way, shape, or form. The comic was plainly not a show of cannon on my part, it was further evidence proving the intent of Robotech's storytellers. It is blatantly, patently, completely clear in no uncertain terms the SDF-2 is supposed to be there. They couldn't visually put it in there. It was beyond their abilities. Hence all the controversy, since the dialogue conflicts the footage, which showed events as they happened in SDF:Macross. But saying that the writers of Robotech couldn't change the story of Macross solely on the basis of the fact that Macross didn't have it there (and thus it didn't exist in the footage) means you're putting the priority on Macross above Robotech. You can obfuscate using the oscillation of Harmony Gold (like vageries of a corporate entity over the actual writers of Robotech itself would somehow hold more weigth), or say that there's no "Robotech Council" seperating the wheat from the chaff (which is true; but I'm not relying on some fictional Council, I'm using Robotech itself, as deliniated by it's creators). But the heart of it is, that your statement seems to amount to "Macross didn't show it, so Robotech can't have it", and while you're free to propose that viewpoint, it's hardly the hinge upon which Robotech turns.

Maybe if Robotech's considered a mere "rewritting" of Macross et all, as you propogate, then that view might hold more water. But Robotech is more than the sum of three different animes. If it wasn't, it likely would've faded away along with other creations of a similar ilk. Robotech is it's own entity, unique and independent. Hardly perfect, true enough. Frankly, that Robotech's as put together as it is and resonates the way it does despite the horribly limited time and resources at the disposal of the creators is mind boggling. Though it's ties to the OSM can't be denied, but those ties are neither chains nor leash. If Robotech says one thing but Macross, Souther Cross, or Mospeada say something different, then you can just go with the OSM...but then you're definately discussing OSM, not Robotech. You can also, of course, create some new fanfic synthesis of the two to compomise the differences, to ease the mind and/or in the hopes of it being retconned in. This option is almost as old as Robotech fandom itself and I dont think there's anyone who doesn't partake of it here and there. Or....you can just take Robotech as it is for what it is. Not always very popular in the face of Robotech's flaws, since people tend to want to make something they care about the best it can be, but not one to be lightly dismissed.

As to the issue of the location of that battle (series of battles?)....the sum total of my point there, and how it relates to the above, is that SDC:SC footage is not be all, end all evidence if Robotech may say differently.

[Sgt Anjay]

The references to the SDF-2 are no error. The writers' intent can be clearly seen and is indeed what happens. Every piece of evidence shows that the SDF-2 references are there on purpose, and are an intentional change from SDF:Macross. The dialogue describes the events as they happen. It is self-consistant, clear, does not waver back and forth or is an isolated utterance, as errors do/are. The animation does not agree because it cannot; it's SDF:Macross leftover that couldn't be changed, nothing more. If that isn't enough, ok, fine. I brought up one example already (the comic adaptation of the episode, made in the era of the show) which corroborates this; not only is the dialogue analogous to the events of the episode, but the visuals are changed to match. Why would this change happen if not to match what is supposed to happen? Not enough? The RPG describes events happening the same way. The novels also agree as to the events. Robotech Art 1's episode guide describes events that way as well. All these sources came out when Robotech was fresh, and access to the writers and their intent easy and readily available.
Not just that, but all these sources are extremely notorious for their contradictions of each other. Debates have raged between the different versions of Robotech that these sources put forward, their relative status to "official" Robotech, their various merits, lack thereof. People have polarized and factionalized, spewing as much hate and rhetoric as examples from their chosen version because of the contradictions. And yet, here, in this instance, they all agree. Is it possible now, here, in 2006 to go through the episodes scene by scene and say "the writers were thinking this"? Of course not. But this event is as clear as the fact that the animation corresponding to Hikaru represents Rick in Robotech. What the writers wrote is Robotech, not what the SDF:Macross artists drew.
Oh, and as for Harmony Gold.....when have they disavowed the SDF-2? Not in their timeline, and certainly not in the episode guide. The SDF's, as well as Khyron and Azonia, all go down together in New Macross City.

As for rewrites and edits, Robotech has plenty of that. Virtually every anime series shown on American television has that. But it's more than that. Plenty is new and different; not the Americanized version of how things happened but things that are Robotech and nothing else. Voltron was in the vein of what they did to create Robotech, though not nearly the same in scope. The Force Five shows were a step towards what Robotech was, and Captain Harlock and the Queen of a 1000 years was simular as well. Neither Robotech nor Voltron were alone on the 80's airwaves. But there were plenty of shows that were just rewrites and edits, from Star Blazers, to Tranzor Z, to Tekkaman the Space Knight. Robotech was, indeed, more.

As for this particular tangent (gee, a thread going off and away...who woulda thunk? ), it's moot only in that neither side's at all interested in the other's view...just in putting their view out there. A good discussion on the nuts and bolts of this series we're all enamored of is otherwise never out of order, long as it's civil.

[Jefffar]

oreillyrel, you point out several times differences between Fan Fiction and OSM weapon load outs. Could you provide the OSM load outs so we can compare please?

Thanks.

[jedi078]

All of this is a moot point for Robotech, since according to Harmony Gold, the VF-X-4 never went into mass production as a mainstay fighter.

Some people do like to incorporate the VF-4 into their individual games.

Anyhow the reason why HG had to make the statement that the VF-X-4 never went into production is because the production version of the VF-X-4, (the VF-4) is from Macross Flashback 2012 an IP HG does not have.

[ShadowLogan]

Anyhow the reason why HG had to make the statement that the VF-X-4 never went into production is because the production version of the VF-X-4, (the VF-4) is from Macross Flashback 2012 an IP HG does not have.

I would imagine that would only apply if HG wanted to have the RT VF-X-4 resemble the Macross VF-4 outside of Fighter mode (which appears in RT:Macross Saga as a model). They could go and give it's own distinct look for Robotech...

[jedi078]

I would imagine that would only apply if HG wanted to have the RT VF-X-4 resemble the Macross VF-4 outside of Fighter mode (which appears in RT:Macross Saga as a model). They could go and give it's own distinct look for Robotech...

Yes, and I think it would be pretty simple, one obvious change would be to make the battliod mode head and central torso section look much like the VF-1's. Maybe give the VF-4 a VF-1R head styling?

[Gabriel_V]

Re: The VF with missiles out the wazoo in Blind Game

The VF in question is being flown by Max. In a couple of shots, it can be discerned that the Veritech's tailfins have been replaced with a collection of (possible) missile-like cylinders. They are clearly not missiles mounted on hardpoints on the tailfins. If anything, they're like multiple disposable missile tubes mounted in an array instead of the tailfins.

[Hunter Killer]

I agree with oreillyrel on the Danger Zone stuff.

However, having defeated oreillyrel in many debates myself, I feel compelled to note that Rick Hunter was slaughtered by a bunch of drunken civilians.