Hero points?

[knightgoblin]

Is there any form of hero points or plot manipulation rules for players out there?

[Glistam]

Not that I'm aware of.

[Sentinel]

I don't really know that there need to be.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Is there any form of hero points or plot manipulation rules for players out there?

nope--and the system works well enough without it as well.

[Marcantony]

Yes, on my site.

[Marcantony]

Is there any form of hero points or plot manipulation rules for players out there?

nope--and the system works well enough without it as well.

In your opinion. You and Sentinel should form a club.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Is there any form of hero points or plot manipulation rules for players out there?

nope--and the system works well enough without it as well.

In your opinion. You and Sentinel should form a club.

why? we disagree as much as we agree.

[knightgoblin]

Thank you for your help Marcantony I will have a look at your website.

[Sentinel]

Is there any form of hero points or plot manipulation rules for players out there?

nope--and the system works well enough without it as well.

In your opinion. You and Sentinel should form a club.

why? we disagree as much as we agree.

I don't know about that.

[RockJock]

What? I don't get an invitation?

[Sentinel]

What? I don't get an invitation?

Yours is in the mail.

[acreRake]

Anyone mind explaining what knightgoblin is talking about? (And where it comes from...)

[Overlord Rikonius]

Anyone mind explaining what knightgoblin is talking about? (And where it comes from...)

I've not seen the system it comes from, nor do I know which it is.

But from context, I'm guessing it's some kinda points you can burn off for effects, like "I need to make this shot, lemme use a Hero point for a bonus"

[Sentinel]

The feeling I got initially was that he was referring to was something similar to the Karma of Marvel Superheroes RPG, the Hero Points of DC Heroes, the Fame & Fortune points of Top Secret, and the use of EXP Points in GURPS to affect rolls and outcomes.

Marvel had also introduced a set of powers called "Rules Manipulation" powers, which conferred the ability to affect actual Game System Mechanics (sort of like "bending the game engine"). Things like Award Rearrangement, Attribute Rearrangement, and others.

[knightgoblin]

Yes hero points, manipulation points (what ever you want to call them) are used to add a temporary bonus to your character. Just like often in comics books when a hero is down and out he or she pulls off a last moment miracle. almost every superhero rpg has a form of hero points, some even assist players in being able to manipulate the enviroment; ever wonder how Mac always had what he needed to get out of a sticky sitution. As a gm I find it refreshing that players have that little extra thing to their character, that way I don't always have to lead them by the nose, or they can surprise me with creative ideas, but not run the game, after all a gm aproves or disaproves of a hero point use or what ever you want to call it, super points, miracle points?).

[Sureshot]

I would like to see something to that effect. A fixed set of points that allow you to temporarily to do things you character would not with his abilities/powers. To balance it out it would be something one could not use all the time and only to do really superheroic things like holding a building up long enough so that the person it was going to crush can escape or be rescued in time. Something very similar to the Hero Points in M&M.

It could work and imo would greatly enhance the game.

[The Beast]

Is there any form of hero points or plot manipulation rules for players out there?

Kinda drunk when I read this. I thought it was Doom asking this question.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Eh, I guess i'm one of the few who don't like "hero points"

The way I see it, if you want to do something extra, you should take the time to aquire that extra something permantly.

the "last minute save my ass miricle" to me is sufficently represented in the form of the Natural 20 and 01 (critical sucesses which always work spectacuarlly)

[Sureshot]

I guess on this issue we can agree to disagree Nekira. I see no reason why someone should have to pay to use something that he may or may not use in an adventure session. One should not be penalized for doing something superheroic or trying to emulate the genre.

An example is trying to knock off or remove Juggernauts helmet. That is a perfect example. Once could use a hero point to remove his helmet after all alternatives have been wasted. Or boosting ones telekinetic ability temporarily to fling Juggernaut away. How often does that happen or other similar situations.

[Sentinel]

I find myself on Nekiras' side of the argument here.

Having seen such systems abused, I am just fine without them.

Occasions like Juggernauts' helmet being pulled off at a critical moment are adequately expressed to me as Natural 20s.

[acreRake]

Huh. Definitely not anything i would ever use. Do your players not plan? With backup and contingency plans? That's half the fun. The other half is figuring out what to do when all your plans fail.

And what was that about not paying for things that don't get used??? That confuses the heck out of me. Every game i've ever played had characters with plenty of things/abilities that never got used, but you have to have "just in case"...

[knightgoblin]

If you think about it people use something like hero points in real life all the time. Ever play a sports game and put xtra effort into your next action? Or how about while driving and had to pull a rabbit out of your hat to not crash? Hero point don't always garanty success but they do increase your chances. Just think about how often superheroes pushed them selves in comics beyond their stats. Sometimes it makes a cool sorry line.
What do you think Superman got lucky with his last dieing punching to Doomsday and got a natural 20? Heck no he busted out heroe points or something big time! I find in my experience in games players like to know that they have some control of the enviroment in the game after all it's the players and the gm making the story not just the gm draging players through their imaginary world. Also I would like to note hero points are not a never ending supply.

[Sureshot]

And what was that about not paying for things that don't get used??? That confuses the heck out of me. Every game i've ever played had characters with plenty of things/abilities that never got used, but you have to have "just in case"...

I never said anything about not paying. I should have been more specific. Hero points would allow on to little things like reflect a blast off a mirror like surface or big things like allowing one to fire an energy blast through a villain armor protection. One time things that happen in comics. And like
knightgoblin said they would be a finite supply.

As for the whole natural 20 on the dice rolls. No offence guys but getting alot of them when you need is pretty rare or even one roll. So that is not a solution. More often than not I as a gm would be handwaving it as the odds are against rolling a natural 20 and usually end up a natural 1. I rather let my players enjoy themlseves than be told "sorry your character could not stop Juggernaut because he was not able to roll a natural 20". It also captures the feel of comics that way too.

[Sentinel]

What do you think Superman got lucky with his last dieing punching to Doomsday and got a natural 20? Heck no he busted out heroe points or something big time!

Or, he rolled a series of Critical Successes (from the DC Heroes RPG charts), and scored a massive mighty blow.
Most games build in a way to illustrate the effect (in Marvel, it was the "Red FEAT"; in games with a D20 it is usually a N20 Critical Success).

Playing a Daxamite in DC Heroes, I rolled a series of five Critical successes which moved my strike off the chart, and knocked the villain into next week.
That's what they are there for.
Not for players to Bend The Game Engine and decide that every hit is going to be a Critical Success (until they run out of points).

In that fashion, a player/character may indeed try to put "all they've got into one punch...", yet still miss: In other words, they tried to get an N20 but did not do so.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I guess on this issue we can agree to disagree Nekira. I see no reason why someone should have to pay to use something that he may or may not use in an adventure session. One should not be penalized for doing something superheroic or trying to emulate the genre.

An example is trying to knock off or remove Juggernauts helmet. That is a perfect example. Once could use a hero point to remove his helmet after all alternatives have been wasted. Or boosting ones telekinetic ability temporarily to fling Juggernaut away. How often does that happen or other similar situations.

Or one could just try to remove it anyway

Or just spending more ISP in order to increase the amount of weight you can move.

I'm sorry, Hero Points take too much risk away by increasing the odds whenever you need it.

and how is it penalizing them to say "get it anyway"

if you want something, go get it.

That's not a penalty. that's logic.

[Sureshot]

Or one could just try to remove it anyway

Or just spending more ISP in order to increase the amount of weight you can move.

I'm sorry, Hero Points take too much risk away by increasing the odds whenever you need it.

and how is it penalizing them to say "get it anyway"

if you want something, go get it.

That's not a penalty. that's logic.

The thing is you keep ignoring the fact I wrote that these points would be finite in number. While they maybe used whenever needed they will not last forever and the gm can refuse to allow to use it. Not to be used all the time. Hence the reason they are saved for "emergency situations".

While you make some good points the reason for using the hero points is to increase the odds of removing it. Not BAM it's removed.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Or one could just try to remove it anyway

Or just spending more ISP in order to increase the amount of weight you can move.

I'm sorry, Hero Points take too much risk away by increasing the odds whenever you need it.

and how is it penalizing them to say "get it anyway"

if you want something, go get it.

That's not a penalty. that's logic.

The thing is you keep ignoring the fact I wrote that these points would be finite in number. While they maybe used whenever needed they will not last forever and the gm can refuse to allow to use it. Not to be used all the time. Hence the reason they are saved for "emergency situations".

While you make some good points the reason for using the hero points is to increase the odds of removing it. Not BAM it's removed.

I never said they went "bam it's removed" I said "take away too much

and I never ignored the fact that Hero Points were finite either. dosn't matter as I still don't see how they're necessary.

[Sentinel]

While you make some good points the reason for using the hero points is to increase the odds of removing it.

That's what Bonuses are for.
To increase the odds of success: in combat, when Charming/Impressing, when Saving Vs. Poison or Coma/Death, etc.
You already have bonuses: how many more advantages do you need?

[knightgoblin]

Ok we get it that some of you are not into the hero point idea. Thats fine, but I would like discuss how one could be implemented. I am working on a few right now. So please no more I don't think a hero point system is a good idea, we all get that.
Does any one know if I am allowed to post option rules here?

[Sureshot]

Ok we get it that some of you are not into the hero point idea. Thats fine, but I would like discuss how one could be implemented. I am working on a few right now. So please no more I don't think a hero point system is a good idea, we all get that.
Does any one know if I am allowed to post option rules here?

As long as you do not do conversions of other characters from other game systems I think it should be alright. Then again I am not a mod so you might to send a PM to one of them to be sure.

[Sureshot]

I never said they went "bam it's removed" I said "take away too much

and I never ignored the fact that Hero Points were finite either. dosn't matter as I still don't see how they're necessary.

Fair enough. Let's just end it at that. otherwise we can argue this forever which I am not prepared to do.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I never said they went "bam it's removed" I said "take away too much

and I never ignored the fact that Hero Points were finite either. dosn't matter as I still don't see how they're necessary.

Fair enough. Let's just end it at that. otherwise we can argue this forever which I am not prepared to do.

Allright. I can handle agreeing to disagree.

[Marcantony]

Ok we get it that some of you are not into the hero point idea. Thats fine, but I would like discuss how one could be implemented. I am working on a few right now. So please no more I don't think a hero point system is a good idea, we all get that.
Does any one know if I am allowed to post option rules here?

Just call it BioE points like is already used in the mutant animal section of HU and ATB. Or had everyone forgotten that?

[Sentinel]

Ok we get it that some of you are not into the hero point idea. Thats fine, but I would like discuss how one could be implemented. I am working on a few right now. So please no more I don't think a hero point system is a good idea, we all get that.
Does any one know if I am allowed to post option rules here?

Just call it BioE points like is already used in the mutant animal section of HU and ATB. Or had everyone forgotten that?

BIO-E points really aren't the same sort of thing being discussed here.
BIO-E are only used in character generation: not for modifying situational results in game-play.

[Stattick]

I'm not sure how I feel about the idea of "Hero Points", or if I'd allow them into a game.

However, if I had to invent such a system, I'd try to keep it as simple as possible.

I'd probably either do a flat rate system, or a teired system. Flat rate could be, everyone gets 5 points/session.

Tiered could be: 1st level characters start with 1 point per session. Every odd level after that, they gain another point/session.

Points not used during a game session are lost.

Each point would count as a +1 on a d20, or a 5% bonus on a d100. The player must declare the number of points that they're using on a roll BEFORE they roll. I MIGHT allow a player to turn a fumble into a failure at the cost of 3 or 4 points, or to do automatic maximum damage on one hit for 5 points.

The bonus would count toward a natural crit, so if a character spent 4 points, and rolled a 15 (adding to 19), they could crit if they crit on an 18 or higher.

As a GM, if I allowed this at all, I might allow characters to spend points on "luck" or plot. For instance, a character might spend 5 points, hoping to find (as opposed to buy) parts to repair his SAMAS, or hoping to find a rare item on the black market. GM's discression on when characters could spend points on plot.

[acreRake]

I've been thinking about this topic and i have to admit i have thought about something a bit similar before. For a while my group had discussed using some kind of variation on the "Investments" that the gods in Dragons and Gods use. So you sacrifice HP and SDC to do incredible feats (magnifications of your existing powers). I think what we thought sounded good was multiplying every aspect of your superpower by 2, 3, 4... for each level of investment (using the same rules as for gods)...

Anyway, that rule would explain the lamest-panel-in-comics (death of superman)...

[knightgoblin]

Heres an optional rules idea! I hope for those who wanted a hero point system that you find good use of it and for those who don't believe in a hero point system, well if you liked anything or use anything I wrote here, I will problably die of a heart attack.


Hero Points
Here are some optional hero point rules for Heroes Unlimited 2. Player characters and any important npc’s start off with 1 hero point and +1 for every experience level. For example at first level a character starts off with 2 hero points and at second level the character would have a total of 3 hero points. A fun way to keep track of hero point is by using poker chips, but one can always keep track on a piece of paper, just avoid using food like candy hero points have a tendency to be eaten up fast. At the beginning of every adventure hero points start off at their norm, example next adventure Joes experience level 2 character starts off with 3 hero points not the 5 or 1 hero points he may have had left from the last adventure.

Here is a list of ways that hero points can be used.
· Increase: 1 hero point can buy the use of a 1D6 to add to a die roll, for striking, parrying, dodging, damage, ect. A maximum of 2D6 can be added. The increase in rolling only works one roll at a time and last for that one action. A character can not spent 1 hero point to add 1D6 to strike and damage; the points must be spent for each separate die roll.
· Increase skill: 1 hero point can temporary (one die roll) increases a skills percent. 1 hero point buys a +5% to a skill. Hero points can stack on this roll to increase bonus to a max of +30%. If unskilled in a skill the max increase is +10%. Wow, maybe you can swim!
· Reroll: 1 hero point can be used to reroll a percent roll or a 1D20 roll. The character takes what ever roll is highest or lowest for percent rolls. If both rolls are below 10 on a 1D20 then the character can take 10. For a percent roll the character can take the lowest of the two rolls or take 50 what ever is best.
· Double lifting: Spend 2 hero points and your characters lifting doubles (can use with a lifting power or P.S.). Remember times in comics when your favorite hero was lifting way beyond their norm? Maybe you heard of the stories of mothers lifting cars to get their children out? Double lifting cost 2 hero points, 2 melee actions and last for one melee round. After the melee round the character must make a save roll of 12 or higher. Base the save off of either P.E. or M.E. gm’s call at the time. If the roll fails the character is passed out for 1D4 melee rounds. For a character that doesn’t pass out –5 to all action rolls for 1D4 rounds. After lifting beyond a character normal limits they become very fatigued. A character can not parry or dodge while double lifting.
· Double damage: Maybe you remember when your favorite character pushed their punch or blasting power beyond the norm? Well by spending 5 hero points a character can double their melee strike damage or power damage; but it will come with a cost. After spending 5 hero points, 2 melee actions and making a damage roll the character must make a save roll (base on P.E. or M.E. gm’s call) difficulty 18 or pass out for 3D4 melee rounds. If the save roll is successful the character is at –10 to all action rolls for 3D4 melee rounds. Optional rule if a character rolls natural 1 during save roll roll on the serious damage chart on page 19 of the HU2 book.
· Power Level Increase: For the cost of 4 hero points a character may use their power one level higher. A character may not use their power more then two levels higher. The change last for only 1 action.
· Reduce damage: A character can reduce damage by 1D6 for every 2 hero points spent. (Not intended for the MDC system)
· Plot manipulation: For the right amount of hero points players may alter or change their environment. Small alteration for 1 hero point a character may alter their plot or environment at a small amount. Example: “Wow, here’s a pencil and a piece of paper so I can write down your phone number”. Medium alteration cost 2 hero points. This a medium change to the environment, find a gas station near buy when low on gas, “man I really need to find a phone to call 911, oh cool theirs one across the street” or “Doh the guy next to me has a cell phone” of course you could have always bought a cell phone and don’t need to spend any hero points at all. Large alteration cost 3 hero points; an example of its use would be finding water in a desert or the guy who’s about to blow your brains out gun jams. The near impossible cost 4 hero points; oh cool her comes the cops or thank God Superdude is here to help. The limits to plot or environment change is always up to the gm, and he can say no at any time.

Another option for the game can be hero point awards through out an adventure. A gm could give a hero point to a player that comes up with a good idea, role playing well, made the group laugh, is sticking to the story, or just being super and saving that cat stuck in a tree. Maybe the gm wants their bad guy to get away and be in another adventure, so he gives every player a hero point, amazing how the whining dims down. These hero points do not save over for the next adventure. Gm’s be careful not to give players to many hero points, keep an eye on hero point hording.