Solothurn's great "Standard E-clip" debate!

[Zer0 Kay]

Normal fusion block damage.

E-clips are not explosive material, so taping one to a fusion block wouldn't add anything to the explosion.

Now what would shorting two E-clips together do?

[RainOfSteel]

Normal fusion block damage.

E-clips are not explosive material, so taping one to a fusion block wouldn't add anything to the explosion.

Now what would shorting two E-clips together do?

Cause electrocution?

[Zer0 Kay]

Normal fusion block damage.

E-clips are not explosive material, so taping one to a fusion block wouldn't add anything to the explosion.

Now what would shorting two E-clips together do?

Cause electrocution?

Ah now what if the wire was made of MDC material? Have you ever passed current from one terminal to another with a bare wire? What could you cut through with that much power?

[Jefffar]

I figured it could be an equivalent to a fusion block or damage that is reminiscent to how many shots it holds, which by the way, could be even for damaging. How would you go about it?

I would say you just wasted the e-clip. Only an effect which causes the e-clip to overcharge will generate any notable increase in explosive force.

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

I had a player try something like that once, he threw an E-Clip underneath a guy and shot it.

Bob (seriously, his name is Bob): "So, what happens..."

Me: "You ruin a perfectly good E-Clip while wasting a shot at the same time."

~ Josh

[Scooter the Outlaw]

We use exploding e-clips because it's fun and makes interesting improvised grenades, but then, my games have never been known for realism.

[Esckey]

Nope won't work like that in my game, just make for a colorful explosion. Gotta break the case of the eclip first and somehow access the energy with out it flyling out and taking the quickest path to ground(which is likly through whomever is holding the clips) , I'm sure theres some sorta safety seal on the top of it that when you slid it into the gun, it gets punctured or opened some how, giving the gun access to the energy in the clip.

At least thats how it works in my games.

[Joey Jo Jo Jr]

What about a Plasma weapon e-clip? The cartridge would have concentrated plasma fuel.

Not necessarily, Plasma is actually just another state of matter eg liquid, solid, gas, plasma, so the eclip could just be heating existing matter to a plasma state and somehow hurling it out of the gun (I think plasma weapons are funny, the physics of them would be nuts)

[vitae_drinker]

Last time I checked, there is no difference between an E-Clip and a 'plasma' E-Clip. It's just an E-Clip. It provides power to be utilized by whatever the gun is that you put it into, which then generates the shot.

It's just a big battery.

[vitae_drinker]

Last time I checked, there is no difference between an E-Clip and a 'plasma' E-Clip. It's just an E-Clip. It provides power to be utilized by whatever the gun is that you put it into, which then generates the shot.

It's just a big battery.

That's because it is a component to an energy based weapon and therefore is just call an energy clip. That doesn't mean that physics don't apply. That's where this misconception about it just being a big battery comes in. Besides a battery is for storing electrical energy only that doesn't go with the specific types of energy weapons. i.e. ion, plasma, laser(exception), particle, etc...

Um...

Huh?

[vitae_drinker]

Last time I checked, there is no difference between an E-Clip and a 'plasma' E-Clip. It's just an E-Clip. It provides power to be utilized by whatever the gun is that you put it into, which then generates the shot.

It's just a big battery.

That's because it is a component to an energy based weapon and therefore is just call an energy clip. That doesn't mean that physics don't apply. That's where this misconception about it just being a big battery comes in. Besides a battery is for storing electrical energy only that doesn't go with the specific types of energy weapons. i.e. ion, plasma, laser(exception), particle, etc...

Um...

Huh?

Battery = electricity

Tell me how an electricity cell(battery) is going to produce emissions of plasma, particles(particle accelerators), and ions.

E-clips have to be specific
Plasma Rifle = Plasma E-clip
Ion Rifle = Ionic E-clip
Laser Rifle(due to diodes, etc.)=Your 'just a car battery" (electricity)

The term E-clip is just a mixed metaphor.

LOL. You're actually trying to apply real world physics to Rifts?



Thats funny.

[Joey Jo Jo Jr]

Dunno, I could be wrong, but I seem to remember that it says somewhere that eclips are like big batteries, I'll go look see if I can find it.

[vitae_drinker]

Last time I checked, there is no difference between an E-Clip and a 'plasma' E-Clip. It's just an E-Clip. It provides power to be utilized by whatever the gun is that you put it into, which then generates the shot.

It's just a big battery.

That's because it is a component to an energy based weapon and therefore is just call an energy clip. That doesn't mean that physics don't apply. That's where this misconception about it just being a big battery comes in. Besides a battery is for storing electrical energy only that doesn't go with the specific types of energy weapons. i.e. ion, plasma, laser(exception), particle, etc...

Um...

Huh?

Battery = electricity

Tell me how an electricity cell(battery) is going to produce emissions of plasma, particles(particle accelerators), and ions.

E-clips have to be specific
Plasma Rifle = Plasma E-clip
Ion Rifle = Ionic E-clip
Laser Rifle(due to diodes, etc.)=Your 'just a car battery" (electricity)

The term E-clip is just a mixed metaphor.

LOL. You're actually trying to apply real world physics to Rifts?



Thats funny.

There has to be some RL physics involved. Other wise there wouldn't be a combat rule system then would there?

Wha...?

Where exactly do the combat rules integrate real world physics beyond the basics of 'things fall down'? Maybe it's just me, but I really don't consider the Palladium (or any RPG system, for that matter) an accurate protrayal of real world interactions, but merely a system that provides entertainment and gets results, accurate or not.

And actually, your mistaken about the real world physics requiring that E-Clips needing to be different for different weapons. Energy is energy. How the weapon uses the energy to produce a result is all that matters. Otherwise you couldn't have your TV and your microwave hooked up to the same outlet. Also, how do you explain plasma and laser and ion and particle beam weapons all running off the same nuclear power pack in a power armor or a vehicle? And how do you explain all these relatively tiny units carrying a NUCLEAR REACTOR? Where does the 8' SAMAS put the reactor, let alone the coolant tubes and the steam turbine. It's not exactly like you take a chunk of Uranium and pull electrons magically off of it (at least not at realistic levels).

Like I said, real world physics doesn't exactly fit in with Rifts.

[vitae_drinker]

I'd figure that at most, the e-clip would function the same as the Naruni Plasma cartridge, as listed under trap construction.

I wish I had that info. Ofcourse new writers might not of realized that e-clip is a figure of speech and then acted on as if there is this "universal e-clip" with some special gumbo in it that can work in plasma, partical, and ionic weaponry.

Why couldn't they be? If an e-clip is little more than a battery (ie: it holds large amounts of potential energy), why wouldn't they be interchangeable. Between ion, particle, and laser weapons.. the difference isn't in the energy supplied but rather how it is applied to the emitter. For plasma weapons, you'd likely need a gas or other material to supply the actual plasma.. but there's no reason why an 'e-clip' couldn't supply the energy required to transform it into plasma and propel it.

Exactly. And why couldn't the gas that is charged to become the plasma just be atmosphere? Or heck, an atom-thin layer on the inside of the barrel (why would you really need much of a barrel on a plasma weapon anyway?) that is vaporized, supercharged to plasma and ejected towards the enemy. Then, eventually, you need to replace the barrel because you're out of barrel to strip off to shoot.

[Joey Jo Jo Jr]

Dunno, I could be wrong, but I seem to remember that it says somewhere that eclips are like big batteries, I'll go look see if I can find it.

Perhaps. Perhaps it was a figure of speech as well. Notice your simile. "are like".

it was an unintentional one.I should have said "are"

and besides I couldn't find it, the closest I could find was in the RMB about recharging eclips, it refers to them as a cell, which implies a battery cell, and yes I know that is not difinitive.

[vitae_drinker]

I'd figure that at most, the e-clip would function the same as the Naruni Plasma cartridge, as listed under trap construction.

I wish I had that info. Of course new writers might not of realized that e-clip is a figure of speech and then acted on as if there is this "universal e-clip" with some special gumbo in it that can work in plasma, particle, and ionic weaponry.

Why couldn't they be? If an e-clip is little more than a battery (ie: it holds large amounts of potential energy), why wouldn't they be interchangeable. Between ion, particle, and laser weapons.. the difference isn't in the energy supplied but rather how it is applied to the emitter. For plasma weapons, you'd likely need a gas or other material to supply the actual plasma.. but there's no reason why an 'e-clip' couldn't supply the energy required to transform it into plasma and propel it.

Hmm. Well. Ions are not the same as electrons(electricity). Particles in an particle accelerator weapon would be combination of everything and not just electrons. Plasma would need a canister in which would need fuel and since the pics show only a single clip, then one has to surmise that the clip has both in the single unit. See the complexity?

Ions are particles with too many electrons
Accelerated particles are are combinations of sub-particles including electrons.
Plasma would be like Hydrogen with ionization in it.
Those universal clips are pretty complex so I doubt very much that you can have just some universal e-clip that would work with everything. Remember Energy Clip just means energy, and since there are energy specific rifles, then the energy clips are automatically energy specific. Therefore there should be some level of increase of damage if grenades are taped to e-clips. There wouldn't just be a little fizzle.

You know, there probably wouldn't just be a little fizzle, you're right. But what is more dangerous...the burst of electricity or the PLASMA or FUSION grenade going off RIGHT NEXT TO YOU.

Honeslty, if you want to let an E-clip make a super grenade, go ahead. I just don't think it would add all that much. Why not just tape two grenades together?

Oh, and see my explanation for how a plasma, particle weapon, or plasma weapon would work. Just take what's already there, charge it up (add electrons to make an ion blast, strip an collection of atoms down to it's component parts for a particle beam, supercharge atoms for plasma) from the atmosphere or the barrel of the gun.

I think you're just trying to make this overcomplicated.

Edit: Also, using this type of explanation would also cover as to why some types of weapons are just more energy efficient (ie: Plasma take so much more energy to fire because they vaporize a thin layer of metal from the base of the barrel [energy], supercharge it [energy] and then throw it down range [energy]). Same thing for the Ion and PB weapons.

[Joey Jo Jo Jr]

I think you're just trying to make this overcomplicated.

Here here, I agree

[vitae_drinker]

That is a somewhat a way to explain away the universal e-clip, but "e-clip" just means a clip that goes with the "e-rifle" as opposed to rail gun or other solid ammo weapons. The fact that e-clips being energy specific is a whole lot more realistic then saying that rifles can "magically"(not referring to TW) grasp everything else they need just from out of thin air to explain away this misconceived e-clip. Your thinking Im being over complicated? Such hubres. Why would there be nuclear powered robots if all they had to do is take from the air or water around them? If such tech was that widely available then nuclear power would be obselete, but it is not and is widely used. The only exception would be in space where there would be vacuums not to be taken advantaged enough to fuel the bot, so nuclear would be feasible, but not all robots are designed to do that, so that wouldn't be a valid counterpoint.

Seriously.. I think you're either confused, or I am.

Why would nuclear power be not used? The system I described has -nothing- to do with power generation, but everything to do with material collection. It would take power to collect, then process the materials used as well. Hence, the E-clip; a battery of energy designed to power the process and to cause the discharge.

So please, elaborate on your logic..

Yeah, ditto.

Honestly, what's so hard to believe about the weapon using a just energy to do its work, regardless of its type of attack? Maybe a small amount from the e-clip charges a screen that collects slightly charged atoms from the atmosphere (or even uses mutliple atom thin layers that are vaporized by an energy charge in the e-clip to form a gaseous form of the metal held in the magnetic field), then increases the flow to supercharge the atoms to create a ball of plasma from the oxygen atoms held on the screen in a magnetic field in the base of the barrel, and then the magnetic field accelerates the ball of plasma down the barrel at high (oh, lets call it .5 C) velocity towards it's target.

The Naruni, having perfected plasma storage technology which is beyond current or even Golden Age Earth tech, use pre-made plasma cartridges from a factory which are far more efficient than using just an energy clip to operate theier weapons, but have the disadvantage of being 'use and lose'.

[The Beast]

Normal fusion block damage.

E-clips are not explosive material, so taping one to a fusion block wouldn't add anything to the explosion.

Wouldn't it be just normal gernade damage and not fusion block damage?

[vitae_drinker]

That is a somewhat a way to explain away the universal e-clip, but "e-clip" just means a clip that goes with the "e-rifle" as opposed to rail gun or other solid ammo weapons. The fact that e-clips being energy specific is a whole lot more realistic then saying that rifles can "magically"(not referring to TW) grasp everything else they need just from out of thin air to explain away this misconceived e-clip. Your thinking I'm being over complicated? Such hubres. Why would there be nuclear powered robots if all they had to do is take from the air or water around them? If such tech was that widely available then nuclear power would be obsolete, but it is not and is widely used. The only exception would be in space where there would be vacuums not to be taken advantaged enough to fuel the bot, so nuclear would be feasible, but not all robots are designed to do that, so that wouldn't be a valid counterpoint.

Seriously.. I think you're either confused, or I am.

Why would nuclear power be not used? The system I described has -nothing- to do with power generation, but everything to do with material collection. It would take power to collect, then process the materials used as well. Hence, the E-clip; a battery of energy designed to power the process and to cause the discharge.

So please, elaborate on your logic..

Your assuming characteristics about weapons that are not in the books, in which, always implied the need for a clip. Your assumption about the type of tech you stated as the basis of your reasoning about e-clips, would, if in fact if it was official, would make the need for nuclear power, for vehicles lets say, obsolete. Meaning your rationalization isn't based on enough hard evidence to prove that your right when my explanation is clearly right because of the official pics and text in the book that only indicates the use of clips as the source of ammo the weapons use.

Why?

Why would vehicles power plants be obsolete?

So how do you think the guns work? Two of us have posted how (pretty reasonable and complete explanations, at that, IMO) we think they work, so what's your idea?

[vitae_drinker]

That is a somewhat a way to explain away the universal e-clip, but "e-clip" just means a clip that goes with the "e-rifle" as opposed to rail gun or other solid ammo weapons. The fact that e-clips being energy specific is a whole lot more realistic then saying that rifles can "magically"(not referring to TW) grasp everything else they need just from out of thin air to explain away this misconceived e-clip. Your thinking I'm being over complicated? Such hubres. Why would there be nuclear powered robots if all they had to do is take from the air or water around them? If such tech was that widely available then nuclear power would be obsolete, but it is not and is widely used. The only exception would be in space where there would be vacuums not to be taken advantaged enough to fuel the bot, so nuclear would be feasible, but not all robots are designed to do that, so that wouldn't be a valid counterpoint.

Seriously.. I think you're either confused, or I am.

Why would nuclear power be not used? The system I described has -nothing- to do with power generation, but everything to do with material collection. It would take power to collect, then process the materials used as well. Hence, the E-clip; a battery of energy designed to power the process and to cause the discharge.

So please, elaborate on your logic..

Your assuming characteristics about weapons that are not in the books, in which, always implied the need for a clip. Your assumption about the type of tech you stated as the basis of your reasoning about e-clips, would, if in fact if it was official, would make the need for nuclear power, for vehicles lets say, obsolete. Meaning your rationalization isn't based on enough hard evidence to prove that your right when my explanation is clearly right because of the official pics and text in the book that only indicates the use of clips as the source of ammo the weapons use.

And my system -still- says there's a need for a clip: There's power needed to do what I described and the E-clip supplies it.

However, even IF e-clips are the only source of ammo used, you've ignored the fact that energy is mutable and can very easily change from one type to another. There's no need for weapon-specific e-clips.

Mutable yes. Easily mutable no. Besides, one can't take an e-clip from a CS rifle and use universly with NE rifles anyway. This also backs me up.

No it doesn't.

All it means is that Naruni weapons use PROPRIETY cartridges (to keep the customer coming back and digging deeper and deeper into debt).

In fact, throughout the books, E-Clips are just that, generic ammo (energy) carriers that can be used by just about ANY hand held weapons systems, which shoots your theory down. Time and again. In Russia, they use a different verson, the G-Clip, but can use the generic E-Clip by using an adapter.

Honestly, you've failed to YET provide any kind of real-world reason why your system is: a) better, b) more realistic, or c) right, either through application of real world science or through Rifts Canon.

If you run it the way you explained in your game, cool. Go for it.

But it's not canon by any stretch of the imagination.

[vitae_drinker]

That is a somewhat a way to explain away the universal e-clip, but "e-clip" just means a clip that goes with the "e-rifle" as opposed to rail gun or other solid ammo weapons. The fact that e-clips being energy specific is a whole lot more realistic then saying that rifles can "magically"(not referring to TW) grasp everything else they need just from out of thin air to explain away this misconceived e-clip. Your thinking I'm being over complicated? Such hubres. Why would there be nuclear powered robots if all they had to do is take from the air or water around them? If such tech was that widely available then nuclear power would be obsolete, but it is not and is widely used. The only exception would be in space where there would be vacuums not to be taken advantaged enough to fuel the bot, so nuclear would be feasible, but not all robots are designed to do that, so that wouldn't be a valid counterpoint.

Seriously.. I think you're either confused, or I am.

Why would nuclear power be not used? The system I described has -nothing- to do with power generation, but everything to do with material collection. It would take power to collect, then process the materials used as well. Hence, the E-clip; a battery of energy designed to power the process and to cause the discharge.

So please, elaborate on your logic..

Your assuming characteristics about weapons that are not in the books, in which, always implied the need for a clip. Your assumption about the type of tech you stated as the basis of your reasoning about e-clips, would, if in fact if it was official, would make the need for nuclear power, for vehicles lets say, obsolete. Meaning your rationalization isn't based on enough hard evidence to prove that your right when my explanation is clearly right because of the official pics and text in the book that only indicates the use of clips as the source of ammo the weapons use.

And my system -still- says there's a need for a clip: There's power needed to do what I described and the E-clip supplies it.

However, even IF e-clips are the only source of ammo used, you've ignored the fact that energy is mutable and can very easily change from one type to another. There's no need for weapon-specific e-clips.

Mutable yes. Easily mutable no. Besides, one can't take an e-clip from a CS rifle and use universly with NE rifles anyway. This also backs me up.

No it doesn't.

All it means is that Naruni weapons use PROPRIETY cartridges (to keep the customer coming back and digging deeper and deeper into debt).

In fact, throughout the books, E-Clips are just that, generic ammo (energy) carriers that can be used by just about ANY hand held weapons systems, which shoots your theory down. Time and again. In Russia, they use a different verson, the G-Clip, but can use the generic E-Clip by using an adapter.

Honestly, you've failed to YET provide any kind of real-world reason why your system is: a) better, b) more realistic, or c) right, either through application of real world science or through Rifts Canon.

If you run it the way you explained in your game, cool. Go for it.

But it's not canon by any stretch of the imagination.

Can you state the exact qoute that e-clips from one type of weapon can be used in another of different design. Book, page, etc....

RMB, page 223:

E-Clip costs are pretty standard. Generally, a new, fully charged,
standard E-clip (short) will cost 5000 credits. Recharging an E-Clip
costs about 1500 credits. Some rifles can use what is called a "long"
E-clip which usually holds 30 shots. A Long E-Clip will cost 8000
credits new and 2000 to recharge. An energy clip can be recharged
hundreds of times before the storage cell burns out.

It seems to me that E-Clips are pretty generic energy storage devices. Perhaps you could show me the quote (book, page, etc...) where it says that there are specific types? In fact, in the RMB, only the CE-Clip (Coalition Canister Clip) is the ONLY *-Clip that states it CANNOT be used on any other energy weapons, implying that E-Clips CAN be so used (ibid):

The Coalition has introduced a new type of weapon cell called a
canister E-Clip or "CE-Clip." The canister E-Clip can hold more
charges and can be used in conjunction with an E-Clip, providing a
weapon with a greater number of shots. At this time, only the Coalition
uses the canister clip and only a few weapons are designed to use the
new clip. Note: A canister clip will only be used on the two or three
CS weapons designed to use them. They can not be used on any other
energy weapons!

[vitae_drinker]

That is a somewhat a way to explain away the universal e-clip, but "e-clip" just means a clip that goes with the "e-rifle" as opposed to rail gun or other solid ammo weapons. The fact that e-clips being energy specific is a whole lot more realistic then saying that rifles can "magically"(not referring to TW) grasp everything else they need just from out of thin air to explain away this misconceived e-clip. Your thinking I'm being over complicated? Such hubres. Why would there be nuclear powered robots if all they had to do is take from the air or water around them? If such tech was that widely available then nuclear power would be obsolete, but it is not and is widely used. The only exception would be in space where there would be vacuums not to be taken advantaged enough to fuel the bot, so nuclear would be feasible, but not all robots are designed to do that, so that wouldn't be a valid counterpoint.

Seriously.. I think you're either confused, or I am.

Why would nuclear power be not used? The system I described has -nothing- to do with power generation, but everything to do with material collection. It would take power to collect, then process the materials used as well. Hence, the E-clip; a battery of energy designed to power the process and to cause the discharge.

So please, elaborate on your logic..

Your assuming characteristics about weapons that are not in the books, in which, always implied the need for a clip. Your assumption about the type of tech you stated as the basis of your reasoning about e-clips, would, if in fact if it was official, would make the need for nuclear power, for vehicles lets say, obsolete. Meaning your rationalization isn't based on enough hard evidence to prove that your right when my explanation is clearly right because of the official pics and text in the book that only indicates the use of clips as the source of ammo the weapons use.

And my system -still- says there's a need for a clip: There's power needed to do what I described and the E-clip supplies it.

However, even IF e-clips are the only source of ammo used, you've ignored the fact that energy is mutable and can very easily change from one type to another. There's no need for weapon-specific e-clips.

Mutable yes. Easily mutable no. Besides, one can't take an e-clip from a CS rifle and use universly with NE rifles anyway. This also backs me up.

No it doesn't.

All it means is that Naruni weapons use PROPRIETY cartridges (to keep the customer coming back and digging deeper and deeper into debt).

In fact, throughout the books, E-Clips are just that, generic ammo (energy) carriers that can be used by just about ANY hand held weapons systems, which shoots your theory down. Time and again. In Russia, they use a different verson, the G-Clip, but can use the generic E-Clip by using an adapter.

Honestly, you've failed to YET provide any kind of real-world reason why your system is: a) better, b) more realistic, or c) right, either through application of real world science or through Rifts Canon.

If you run it the way you explained in your game, cool. Go for it.

But it's not canon by any stretch of the imagination.

Can you state the exact qoute that e-clips from one type of weapon can be used in another of different design. Book, page, etc....

RMB, page 223:

E-Clip costs are pretty standard. Generally, a new, fully charged,
standard E-clip (short) will cost 5000 credits. Recharging an E-Clip
costs about 1500 credits. Some rifles can use what is called a "long"
E-clip which usually holds 30 shots. A Long E-Clip will cost 8000
credits new and 2000 to recharge. An energy clip can be recharged
hundreds of times before the storage cell burns out.

It seems to me that E-Clips are pretty generic energy storage devices. Perhaps you could show me the quote (book, page, etc...) where it says that there are specific types? In fact, in the RMB, only the CE-Clip (Coalition Canister Clip) is the ONLY *-Clip that states it CANNOT be used on any other energy weapons, implying that E-Clips CAN be so used (ibid):

The Coalition has introduced a new type of weapon cell called a
canister E-Clip or "CE-Clip." The canister E-Clip can hold more
charges and can be used in conjunction with an E-Clip, providing a
weapon with a greater number of shots. At this time, only the Coalition
uses the canister clip and only a few weapons are designed to use the
new clip. Note: A canister clip will only be used on the two or three
CS weapons designed to use them. They can not be used on any other
energy weapons!

That is a standard universally priced ranged rule not a standard universally designed e-clip rule. Also it uses the term e-clip as a generic term to mean it goes to energy weapons. The note for the canister is just to limit those particular canister to thier respective weapons which doesn't auotmatically implies the opposite for e-clips in general.

Whatever. I have a quote that supports my position (pretty well at that). Where's yours? Oh, you don't have one? Perhaps because there isn't one?

Just admit defeat. Heck, don't even admit it. We all know who's right and has logic and canon on his side.

If you want to keep arguing, go ahead. I know I'm right and that you're wrong, even if you won't admit it.

[Drakenred®™©]

Trimed to reduce the posiblity of a quote implosion

.

..

.

.

.

.

The Coalition has introduced a new type of weapon cell called a
canister E-Clip or "CE-Clip." The canister E-Clip can hold more
charges and can be used in conjunction with an E-Clip, providing a
weapon with a greater number of shots. At this time, only the Coalition
uses the canister clip and only a few weapons are designed to use the
new clip. Note: A canister clip will only be used on the two or three
CS weapons designed to use them. They can not be used on any other
energy weapons!

That is a standard universally priced ranged rule not a standard universally designed e-clip rule. Also it uses the term e-clip as a generic term to mean it goes to energy weapons. The note for the canister is just to limit those particular canister to thier respective weapons which doesn't auotmatically implies the opposite for e-clips in general.

Basicaly the Coalition Canister is the odd ball in the game, In RIFTS Japan the Canister is bascialy the equivilant of a short and long clip, and is slighly aquard to use, in the CS the canister is a more expensive long clip that only fits a couple of weapons because of its design because the clip was intended to be a "backup" power supply.

We have switched things a bit so that the canister will act as described in RIFTs Japan, (IE larger payload than a long clip, with a penalty if used in guns that were not specificaly designed to use it)

[vitae_drinker]

As for the CS vs NE. I was just pointing out a specific example to be general. Not specific to be specific to those particular examples.

Whatever. Keep arguing. Find that (nonexistant) quote.

Also:

Also you just put your own foot in your mouth, because you failed to see the using an adapter doesn't necessarily mean that e-clips from an ion rifle can then be used on a laser rifle. It could just mean a e-clip from a plasma rifle to a plasma pistol. Both still being plasma but with different size clip housings.

If you're going to keep adding to your stuff after I shoot it down, then hey, there REALLY is no point to discussing it with you.

Also, the adapter that is mentioned ONLY in the Russian World books (AFAIK) SPECIFICALLY states it is for using the (general use) E-Clip in a G-Clip weapon.

Got a quote to support your argument yet? No?

Gee, I wonder why...

Because you're WRONG.

[Esckey]

Then post the quote.


And in the end remember, most of us aren't going to be swayed by this, I'm sure all of us will still go by "an eclip is an eclip is an eclip" even if KS himself came down here and said "There are laser eclips, plasma eclips, ion eclips, particlebeam eclips, pistol eclips, rifle eclips.." and so on

[vitae_drinker]

Then post the quote.


And in the end remember, most of us aren't going to be swayed by this, I'm sure all of us will still go by "an eclip is an eclip is an eclip" even if KS himself came down here and said "There are laser eclips, plasma eclips, ion eclips, particlebeam eclips, pistol eclips, rifle eclips.." and so on

Then why are you asking me to post a quote! [MODERATED] You guys think that just because the "E-Clip" being a general term, that it means it is universally compatible with any energy weapon. When what it really is saying is that the "E-Clip" is a general term that means it is just a clip that goes to an energy weapon. See the difference? The "E-Clip" just means a clip that goes to an Energy Weapon in general. That's it.
There doesn't have to be a quote saying the e-clips are energy specific because it is already implies that in the specific description of the energy weapon in what type it is. Ergo, Ion, Plasma, laser, etc...

That wasn't very nice...

[Natalya]

Please, no name-calling. Thank you.

[Jefffar]

Last time I checked, there is no difference between an E-Clip and a 'plasma' E-Clip. It's just an E-Clip. It provides power to be utilized by whatever the gun is that you put it into, which then generates the shot.

It's just a big battery.

That's because it is a component to an energy based weapon and therefore is just call an energy clip. That doesn't mean that physics don't apply. That's where this misconception about it just being a big battery comes in. Besides a battery is for storing electrical energy only that doesn't go with the specific types of energy weapons. i.e. ion, plasma, laser(exception), particle, etc...

Unfortunately there is no game differentiation listed in terms of size, shape or price.

Heck, a Northern Gun Plasma Ejector can be hooked to the same power pack as one of their laser rifles or ion pistols without modification. Check Rifts Mercenaries.

Oh, and if you guys can't play nice, we're closing the thread.

[Joey Jo Jo Jr]

...Besides, one can't take an e-clip from a CS rifle and use universly with NE rifles anyway. This also backs me up.

If you re-read Naruni plasma weapons you will notice they do NOT use eclips

[sHaka]

What about a Plasma weapon e-clip? The cartridge would have concentrated plasma fuel.

see the thread on 'Are E-clips general or specific' that might throw a spanner in those works.

[The Beast]

Wouldn't there be different prices for E-Clips if they had to be made for each kind of energy weapon? Look at the missiles and gernades. All the prices for the warheads are different. But with E-Clips it's just one standard price.
Also why would the energy be different in each weapon? The clips aren't generating the burst of energy from the weapon, the weapon is generating it. The E-Clip is just providing the energy needed to do it.

[Drakenred®™©]

Generaly, unless you design something like a plasma-rifle fusion bomb useing an Eclip (which I have allowed btw) just straping a bomb to it will be about as efective as straping a Lithium batery pack to a hand grenaid

[Borast]

What about a Plasma weapon e-clip? The cartridge would have concentrated plasma fuel.

Depending on whether an e-clip is a storage battery or a capacitor cell, you are either going to ruin a perfectly good e-clip, or release an electrical discharge Assuming the latter, you'll not see much real use out of it other than a pretty light show as the electricity arcs madly. Any victims would simply have no to mild to bad electrical burns depending on the level of protection and proximity (since most RIFTS armours are non conductive ceramics and plastics).

As for an e-clip for a plasma weapon...it's the same e-clip you just used in your laser rifle yesterday. The only true plasma weapons in RIFTS are the Naruni Plasma Cartridge weapons and possibly the one used by the Inter-dimensional Merc Company based in South America.


Please Note...after reading most of the posts in this thread, I grabbed my RGMG and turned to the weapons section. No where in the preamble of four pages does it mention that there are different e-clips for different "classes" of weapons. Nor does it say that CS clips can not be used by NG, Wilks, etc; nor vice-versa. Given that most CS soldiers are away from easy resupply, that does make sense. After all, do not most modern military assault rifles use the same rounds, whether NATO or slightly different Warsaw Pact version? The good-old 7.62 rifle round (however, don't put a WP round in a NATO rifle or vice versa...).

Think about it:
Coalition Lieutenant leading a three-man unit: "Soldier, shoot that d-bee!"
Coalition Grunt #1: "Sir, I can not!"
<BLAM>
Coalition Lieutenant, standing over corpse of Grunt #1: "Soldier, shoot that d-bee!"
Coalition Grunt #2: "With what sir?"
Coalition Lieutenant: "With your RIFLE, soldier!"
Coalition Grunt #2: "No e-clip, sir...we used the last shots yesterday to repel that d-bee force!"
Coalition Lieutnenat: "What, and you didn't scavenge extra clips from the bodies?"
Coalition Grunt #2: "No sir, they don't fit!"

Personally, I have YET to see any indication that (with the obvious exceptions such as the CET Cartriges, certain laser tool cells, etc) e-clips are NOT "universal." In fact, while I can not produce the quote (and I'm NOT going to rummage through a dozen or more books), I remember a FAQ or outright statement somewhere that an e-clip IS universal, since it is based on a design common before the "fall," or some similar statement. It may have had to do with the ability for a player to simply take an e-clip from a dead enemy and simply slap it into his or her favourite weapon and be able to USE it! (To prevent someone from whining that "pistol ammo is pistol ammo...what difference does it make if I put .45 shells in my 9mm?" )

Oh, also...an ion is an atom with a charge, whether + or -, and can be created by the addition or subtraction of one or more electrons. It has to do with the number of electrons in the outermost "shell."

[Thinyser]

Last time I checked, there is no difference between an E-Clip and a 'plasma' E-Clip. It's just an E-Clip. It provides power to be utilized by whatever the gun is that you put it into, which then generates the shot.

It's just a big battery.

That's because it is a component to an energy based weapon and therefore is just call an energy clip. That doesn't mean that physics don't apply. That's where this misconception about it just being a big battery comes in. Besides a battery is for storing electrical energy only that doesn't go with the specific types of energy weapons. i.e. ion, plasma, laser(exception), particle, etc...

Um...

Huh?

Battery = electricity

Tell me how an electricity cell(battery) is going to produce emissions of plasma, particles(particle accelerators), and ions.E-clips have to be specific
Plasma Rifle = Plasma E-clip
Ion Rifle = Ionic E-clip
Laser Rifle(due to diodes, etc.)=Your 'just a car battery" (electricity)

The term E-clip is just a mixed metaphor.

sorry but that is so strange of an assumption that it is funny.

Its the electronics in the gun that convert the electricity to whatever other form of energy is emited by the weapon. A battery does not produce music (sonic energy) but you dont have to have a "Music battery" to make a radio work. A battery does not produce light but you dont have to have a "light battery" to make a laser pointer work.

Also the energy clip or e-clip is probably a capacitor not a battery. Batteries use a chemical reaction to produce electricity and are slow to discharge, a capacitor is a device that stores electricity and can rapidly discharge it.

The e-clip is not storing "ion energy" or "plasma energy" or "particle beam energy", or "laser energy" it is storing electricity. This electricity is then conveted by the electronics of the weapon to another form of energy (ion, particle, laser light, or plasma )and projected out the barrel.

How did you even get the notion that a e-clip held "plasma energy" or "ion energy" or "particle beam energy"?

[vitae_drinker]

Some more quotes to show that Solothurn is indeed WRONG.

GMG, pg. 11:

E-Clip: Traditional automatic weapons have an ammo-clip. A cartridge
that holds bullets and is slapped into the weapon to supply its ammunition. An "E-Clip" is the equivalent for energy weapons like laser guns, ion blasters, particle beam rifles, and plasma ejectors, among others. (No differentiation, you shall note.) Instead of feeding the weapon bullets, an E-Clip is effectively a powerful battery that feeds the weapon energy to fire X number of energy blasts. (A Powerful Battery? Really? Isn't that what we said last night?) Typically, the more powerful the blast (i.e. the more damage it inflicts) the fewer shots are available from that weapon.

Also, GMG, pg. 111:

10. Northern Gun (NG) Self-Charging Power Packs. These items are relatively small battery packs that can be worn on the hip or back depending on the size. A cable runs from the pack to what looks like a standard E-Clip. (Standard? But Solothurn said they weren't 'standard') The E-Clip end snaps into the weapon like a normal clip, but provides additional power from the pack. Designed to power heavy ion, plasma and particle beam weapons that require a lot of energy.

And now, from GMG, pg. 137:

Standard Japanese Pistol E-Clips. (But I though E-Clips weren't STANDARD?) All ArmaTech pistol weapons use the same standard hand-loaded energy magazine. H-Brand weapons use the same standard for their pistol clips which are cheap knock-offs of ArmaTech E-Clips. The magazines of both brands are interchangeable, although ArmaTech is of higher quality. They can also be used to power most bionic and cybernetic weapons. It is interesting to note that ArmaTech energy clips and basic weapon designs are fundamentally the same as those used by the Coalition States in distant North America; evidence that the Coalition's technology is based heavily on pre-Rifts technology unearthed from ancient ruins and held secret by the respective governments. Consequently, the weapons and E-Clips of both ArmaTech and H-Brand can be used in many of the weapons produced by the CS, Northern Gun, Bandito Arms and most North American manufacturers.), as well as the New Navy. (Standardized E-Clips? No, no. Couldn't be...)

So, Solothurn is WRONG.

Thank you.

Edit: Bold is added, and italics are my comments.

[Jefffar]

Check out the Northern Gun Power Pack in Rifts Mercenaries.

The same power pack can be used to power a laser rifle, an ion pistol and a plasma ejector.

[Thinyser]

Some more quotes to show that Solothurn is indeed WRONG.

GMG, pg. 11:

E-Clip: Traditional automatic weapons have an ammo-clip. A cartridge
that holds bullets and is slapped into the weapon to supply its ammunition. An "E-Clip" is the equivalent for energy weapons like laser guns, ion blasters, particle beam rifles, and plasma ejectors, among others. (No differentiation, you shall note.) Instead of feeding the weapon bullets, an E-Clip is effectively a powerful battery that feeds the weapon energy to fire X number of energy blasts. (A Powerful Battery? Really? Isn't that what we said last night?) Typically, the more powerful the blast (i.e. the more damage it inflicts) the fewer shots are available from that weapon.

Also, GMG, pg. 111:

10. Northern Gun (NG) Self-Charging Power Packs. These items are relatively small battery packs that can be worn on the hip or back depending on the size. A cable runs from the pack to what looks like a standard E-Clip. (Standard? But Solothurn said they weren't 'standard') The E-Clip end snaps into the weapon like a normal clip, but provides additional power from the pack. Designed to power heavy ion, plasma and particle beam weapons that require a lot of energy.

And now, from GMG, pg. 137:

Standard Japanese Pistol E-Clips. (But I though E-Clips weren't STANDARD?) All ArmaTech pistol weapons use the same standard hand-loaded energy magazine. H-Brand weapons use the same standard for their pistol clips which are cheap knock-offs of ArmaTech E-Clips. The magazines of both brands are interchangeable, although ArmaTech is of higher quality. They can also be used to power most bionic and cybernetic weapons. It is interesting to note that ArmaTech energy clips and basic weapon designs are fundamentally the same as those used by the Coalition States in distant North America; evidence that the Coalition's technology is based heavily on pre-Rifts technology unearthed from ancient ruins and held secret by the respective governments. Consequently, the weapons and E-Clips of both ArmaTech and H-Brand can be used in many of the weapons produced by the CS, Northern Gun, Bandito Arms and most North American manufacturers.), as well as the New Navy. (Standardized E-Clips? No, no. Couldn't be...)

So, Solothurn is WRONG.

Thank you.

Edit: Bold is added, and italics are my comments.

We all (well almost all of us) knew that already but thanks for the quotes!
It always amazes me how easily confused some people are.

[Thinyser]

Check out the Northern Gun Power Pack in Rifts Mercenaries.

The same power pack can be used to power a laser rifle, an ion pistol and a plasma ejector.

Ding ding ding! we have a winner here folks!

Hmmm maybe thats because they all use electricity to power the electronics of the weapons, and the electronics then convert the raw electrical energy (and possibly a bit of matter from the surroundings) into the other specific type (ion, light, plasma, partcle) and emit this from the barrel.

[vitae_drinker]

Check out the Northern Gun Power Pack in Rifts Mercenaries.

The same power pack can be used to power a laser rifle, an ion pistol and a plasma ejector.

Ding ding ding! we have a winner here folks!

Hmmm maybe thats because they all use electricity to power the electronics of the weapons, and the electronics then convert the raw electrical energy (and possibly a bit of matter from the surroundings) into the other specific type (ion, light, plasma, partcle) and emit this from the barrel.

Yep.

That's in the middle quote of my previous post.

<Mr. Rogers Voice>So, children, can we all say Solothurn is WRONG?

I know you can.</Mr. Rogers Voice>

[Thinyser]

Check out the Northern Gun Power Pack in Rifts Mercenaries.

The same power pack can be used to power a laser rifle, an ion pistol and a plasma ejector.

Ding ding ding! we have a winner here folks!

Hmmm maybe thats because they all use electricity to power the electronics of the weapons, and the electronics then convert the raw electrical energy (and possibly a bit of matter from the surroundings) into the other specific type (ion, light, plasma, partcle) and emit this from the barrel.

Yep.

That's in the middle quote of my previous post.

<Mr. Rogers Voice>So, children, can we all say Solothurn is WRONG?

I know you can.</Mr. Rogers Voice>

Show me where it says that energy rifles do that. Then you can have a real Mr. Rogers fantasy.

Um....see the blue part... DUH!

YOU are the only person that seems to not understand how e-clips work. The term e-clip is not a "mixed metaphor" describing a tank of plasma or a ion battery or any of the other things you suggest. It is an electrical (hence the E) storage device that "is effectively a powerful battery".

Now I would contest that it is not really a "battery" but rather a capicitor as the discharge rate is much too high for a battery.

Now naruni plasma cartridge weapons use their propritory ammo (specifically designed plasma cartidges) and these I believe would work for your grenade enhancement but e-clips are "effectively powerful batteries" according to canon, and as such, would have no effect on the size of an explosion.

By continuing this debate you only show that you are too stuborn to admit that you are, in fact, wrong according to canon.

[Thinyser]

Maybe thats because the pack can hold different types of energy ammo. That still doesn't prove me wrong.

LOL
as i said before... By continuing this debate you only show that you are too stuborn to admit that you are, in fact, wrong according to canon.

[Thinyser]

Also a standard energy clip in the quotes don't explain what the specific energy is. Therefore they could just be saying a standard e-clip of a laser rifle can be used in a laser pistol or other laser rifle, and they where just going by the terms standard e-clip for short as a mixed metaphor. That still doesn't dissprove the they can't be used in plasma weapons.

AGAIN...By continuing this debate you only show that you are too stuborn to admit that you are, in fact, wrong according to canon.

If you need more information to convince yourself you ARE wrong read page 111 of the RGMG.

[Thinyser]

Check out the Northern Gun Power Pack in Rifts Mercenaries.

The same power pack can be used to power a laser rifle, an ion pistol and a plasma ejector.

Ding ding ding! we have a winner here folks!

Hmmm maybe thats because they all use electricity to power the electronics of the weapons, and the electronics then convert the raw electrical energy (and possibly a bit of matter from the surroundings) into the other specific type (ion, light, plasma, partcle) and emit this from the barrel.

Yep.

That's in the middle quote of my previous post.

<Mr. Rogers Voice>So, children, can we all say Solothurn is WRONG?

I know you can.</Mr. Rogers Voice>

Show me where it says that energy rifles do that. Then you can have a real Mr. Rogers fantasy.

Um....see the blue part... DUH!

YOU are the only person that seems to not understand how e-clips work. The term e-clip is not a "mixed metaphor" describing a tank of plasma or a ion battery or any of the other things you suggest. It is an electrical (hence the E) storage device that "is effectively a powerful battery".

Now I would contest that it is not really a "battery" but rather a capicitor as the discharge rate is much too high for a battery.

Now naruni plasma cartridge weapons use their propritory ammo (specifically designed plasma cartidges) and these I believe would work for your grenade enhancement but e-clips are "effectively powerful batteries" according to canon, and as such, would have no effect on the size of an explosion.

By continuing this debate you only show that you are too stuborn to admit that you are, in fact, wrong according to canon.

Aren't plasma cartridges also explained away as e-clips?

Not in the books that i can find, that is only one posters supposition, not canon.

[Drakenred®™©]

Nope, all he needs to do is read Page 112-113 of RMO, Specificaly the description of Construction Equipment

[Joey Jo Jo Jr]

Aren't plasma cartridges also explained away as e-clips?

Not at all they are ammo. Plasma cartridge weapons are MECHANICAL.

Phase World p117

"This weapon is an energy rifle that does NOT require an e-clip. Instead it uses thick cartridges that have a small impact primer. When the primer is hit by the MECHANICAL weapon, the cartridge is converted into energy, causing a plasma discharge..." (capitals are my emphasis)

It goes on to say in each plasma cartridge weapon the same cartridges are used.

[Drakenred®™©]

ok let me get this right

in a series of books that will spell out when a shotgun CANT use standard shotgun shells, or has individual weapons that use custom or unique to that manufacturers power supply says not once but REPETEDLY that E-clips are interchangable in any weapon that uses them(to the point that you can use a standard or long e-clip in almost any weapon out their that uses one or the other) your assumption is that they are full of poo and that each and every individual weapon out their needs its own unique custom designed eclip that can only be used in that weapon.

whatever.

[Joey Jo Jo Jr]

To me: Standard E-clip = mixed metaphor
To you: Standard E-clip = an official type of universal design

When they say the energy rifle take standard e-clips, Im thinking standard e-clips that go to the rifle. You are going by a universal standard e-clip that not only goes to that rifle, but of a eclip that happens to go with all other e rifles in general as well.

My intreptretation is correct and realistic based on the type of weapons that come with thier own type of standard e-clip due to the differences of the type of weapon.
You are intrepretating it non-realistically and with too many assumptions in the form of invisible rules of how the tech works, and for the convienence of scavaging.

The wording goes both ways. Its just semantics. BUT my intrepretation is more realistic and is better for more of a gritty way of playing. Not some kiddy version that isn't realistic enough.

No MY way is better, wait, no mine is, no mine, mine, mine, mine...

[Drakenred®™©]

Well in a way it is more realistic, after all when you look at the art you quickly realise that the artist have 1001 diferent ways to draw whats suposedly an object that is as standardised as a brick.

[Jefffar]

Standard Naruni Plasma weapons don't use e-clips. They use clips containing plasma cartridges. Every other hand held plasma weapon uses a batter style e-clip or similar power producign arrangement.

And Again I remind all of you to be civil or be sorry.