A.R. Penetration

[UR Leader Hobbes]

Hi all. I've been playing PF for about ten years now and one of my players brought up a question to me recently. I was wondering if you include bonuses to strike when deciding if a strike overcomes A.R.? Or do you go strictly off the natural die roll itself.

You use the natural roll of the die. If the natural roll is above the AR then you do damage to the creature or person wearing the armor. If it's below then the damage is done to the armor itself. In the case of creatures with natural armors it means their thick skin is unharmed by the blow.

I have always included the strike bonuses because I figured that the more naturally dexterous and experienced the character, the better they would be at aiming for the weak points in the armor (joints, underarms, etc.).

Any and all feedback would be welcome. Thanks.

Strike bonuses are used to defeat a defense. (IE out bonus the enemy) to get a successful hit. But it really boils down to the natural roll of the die.

[Damian Magecraft]

Hi all. I've been playing PF for about ten years now and one of my players brought up a question to me recently. I was wondering if you include bonuses to strike when deciding if a strike overcomes A.R.? Or do you go strictly off the natural die roll itself.

You use the natural roll of the die. If the natural roll is above the AR then you do damage to the creature or person wearing the armor. If it's below then the damage is done to the armor itself. In the case of creatures with natural armors it means their thick skin is unharmed by the blow.

I have always included the strike bonuses because I figured that the more naturally dexterous and experienced the character, the better they would be at aiming for the weak points in the armor (joints, underarms, etc.).

Any and all feedback would be welcome. Thanks.

Strike bonuses are used to defeat a defense. (IE out bonus the enemy) to get a successful hit. But it really boils down to the natural roll of the die.

canon rules is bonuses count towards penatration...any thing else is a house rule.

[Giddoen]

Another good house rule is to make a skill that increases armor AR for the wearer on attacks they see coming. Make it a WP type where they get +2 AR to start and something like +1 every 3 additional levels. It helps offset high strike bonuses, but isn't too silly, IMHO.

Zylo not sure if that is your own creation??? But consider it stolen!!! Great new skill and it should be made official as far as I am concerned and will be cannon in all me games from now on!

Giddoen

[Lukterran]

These are the house rules I go by for Armor Rating:

ARMOR
·An unmodified roll that successfully hits above the characters A.R. inflicts full damage. A modified roll to hit above the characters A.R. inflicts one half damage to the armor and one half to the character. The exception to this rule is a successful called shot to a specific unarmored portion of opponents anatomy.

This works pretty well for me and my group. The only thing is now the armor absorbs alot more damage, which is fine. But it always leaves the group running back to town to get their armor repaired and replaced.

[Goliath Strongarm]

Damien is right. Canon is that bonuses apply. Well, more specifically, canon is NOT that bonuses DONT apply. Yet more of PB's wonderful editing and clear rules.

As a HOUSE rule, the way I do it is this:

Bonuses apply vs dodge parries, etc. But, they don't apply vs AR. So, basically, a bonus makes you more likely to hit the target, but not really any more likely to get through his armor.

NATURAL roll is what is used for the AR. High roll wins, tie goes to defender (even though, if Im in a hurry to get past that point, and it's not an important fight, I'll just give it to the PCs to hurry things along).

I mean, if you allow bonuses to add against armor, platemail is pointless if you're fighting anyone beyond like level 5.

But, again, that's all just a house rule.

--
GS

"You mean you're sending me into the aftermath of a huricane, where some of the BEST fishing is going to be done... and you're telling me to NOT take my rod and reel? You're joking, right?"-me, to my First Sergeant... he didn't laugh.. *sigh*

PS: Yes, Im still taking my rod and reel. I can't pass up the chance!

[Guest]

Why not lower bonuses across the board? That's what I did. I started bonuses a bit lower but made them ramp up more slowly. Having someone with a +10 to strike is crazy anyways. This way skill still plays a part but you don't have people with crazy high bonuses running around all over the place.

You could always keep the same bonuses but switch to percentile for combat rolls. Then those +14 to Parry (or what have you) bonuses aren't as unbalancing.

That's why armor is so useless. I also use a house rule that has armor taking 10% dmg rolled unless it it specifically targeted. THis works great and allows armor to last longer than 1/2 an encounter.

Mantis

Bonuses are only part of why armor is so useless. The key problem is really AR covering both the resistance of the armor and the coverage of the armor.

[Guest]

You could always keep the same bonuses but switch to percentile for combat rolls. Then those +14 to Parry (or what have you) bonuses aren't as unbalancing.

That's a possibility but then you'd be changing the system pretty drastically for possibly not much gain. I like the palladium system for the most part, aside from the confusing and sometimes contradictory rules, it is pretty decent for a pure SDC setting (don't get me started about MDC).

I didn't say you should, I just said you could. I haven't done it in my games because I LIKE rolling a D20 for combat.

Bonuses are only part of why armor is so useless. The key problem is really AR covering both the resistance of the armor and the coverage of the armor.

But for every increase in realism comes with an increase in complexity. Even the chop/cut/thrust resistance factors of the compendium of ancient weapons is a bit too much IMO. I mean I like the idea of it but to carry it out (to me at least) seems like a lot of work for not that much gain.

Hence the never ending quest to find the balance between simple playability and utilitarian playability.

I'm not saying I have all the answers but for my group lowering the power level across the board made it a lot more fun.

Mantis

I'm still playing around with several options myself.

See Making Armor Useful for many, many options that have been bandied about.

[Lukterran]

Sounds good to me This is how I would abuse your rule.

Take a suit of Full Plate (AR: 17 SDC: 160), get it Dwarven made the highest quality and constructed of Black Metal(Northern Hinterlands Book)
Superior Armor with increased SDC (from pg. 272) plus 50 SDC =210
Black Metal: Armor made from black metal will have double the normal SDC, as well as an AR of +1 higher than normal. Also taking only half damge from normal fire. So now the Full Plate(AR:18 SDC: 420)
Superior Armor per the new rule = AR:18 divided by 4 = 4.5 rounded down = +4 to AR = 22

Now it is time to magically enchant the suit of armor.
Maximum of 4 enchantments:
-Armor Rating Enhancement (+1= AR: 23)
-Magic SDC (+200 = SDC: 620)
-Burst into Flames (Western Empires pg. 158) = x3 daily increase SDC by 100 and AR by +2 (Raising the AR: to a maximum of 25) also the extra damage from attacks.
-Then maybe Regenerating Armor so it will never need to be fixed.

Not that it would ever happen or that the player characters would ever have the money or all right circumstances to get an "Master" dwarvens weapons smith and alchemist that could do all the enchantments all together in one place to work on such a great suit of armor, and with a large enough supply of black metal.

But if I was dreaming and had a unlimited budget and resources, thats what I think I would make for my character. "Now I am a walking Tank"

I like the rule...really. Just wanted to see how much I could munchkin it out.

[GA]

If you want the armor and combat to matter use natural rolls to pierce the armor. This will allow your mid and higher level characters with high strike rolls to hit but still have to deal with the opponents armor and vice versa. The only possible problem is with armor with an AR above 17 and supernatural armor. For anything over 17 probably you would have to have the strike bonuses count i would think, its just too hard to roll a natural 18 or above.

[Guest]

I didn't say you should, I just said you could. I haven't done it in my games because I LIKE rolling a D20 for combat.

So do I but why post it unless its something you've tried and felt like it was a good viable solution? A person could also switch to playing D&D3e as well but that isn't really a realistic alternative.

Mantis

I didn't say it wasn't a good viable solution, I said I prefer not to use it. In effect all it does is divide the bonuses by 5, really only usable on a D20 for every +5 in bonuses the character has, so that character with the +14 to parry is effectively getting only a +2.8, with the .8 being effectively null.

[Rimmer]

These are the house rules I go by for Armor Rating:

ARMOR
·An unmodified roll that successfully hits above the characters A.R. inflicts full damage. A modified roll to hit above the characters A.R. inflicts one half damage to the armor and one half to the character. The exception to this rule is a successful called shot to a specific unarmored portion of opponents anatomy.

This works pretty well for me and my group. The only thing is now the armor absorbs alot more damage, which is fine. But it always leaves the group running back to town to get their armor repaired and replaced.

This is pretty much what i use as well, has worked for me for about 10 years now, so have no intention of changing

[Borast]

If you want the armor and combat to matter use natural rolls to pierce the armor. This will allow your mid and higher level characters with high strike rolls to hit but still have to deal with the opponents armor and vice versa. The only possible problem is with armor with an AR above 17 and supernatural armor. For anything over 17 probably you would have to have the strike bonuses count i would think, its just too hard to roll a natural 18 or above.

That was another thing that I forgot about. If you AR is over 20 (which could happen, then they would never be affected by any strikes

Actually...You can still strike someone wearing a suit with an A.R. over 20.

If your modified roll exceeds the AR, you strike the person wearing it. The drawback is that you might be taking quite a few more critical hits to yourself.

[Borast]

I think it works really well and no one has had any issues with it. Its one of those things that you just look at it and think, "man, that just seems a bit off..."

I like the palladium system by and large, certain aspects of it could use some reworking but that's why I come to the boards, I like to see what others have done and then why they chose that route as opposed to some other way.

I use my play group as guinea pigs to test out various house rules, etc. and they all seem to enjoy it so I guess that's a good thing.

Mantis

I agree.

As for the guinea pig stuff...don't forget to obtain signatures on the appropriate forms BEFORE you start with the experimental medical procedures...

[Borast]

Assuming they actually could be "convinced" to give them up!

[Kelorin]

Whew, haven't been over to the Palladium Fantasy forum for awhile.

In the other 'I hate Armor' thread, there is an idea I really like the sound of. Using A.R. as D.R. or Damage Reduction. Thus any hit that gets past the armor rating is still reduced in effect by a portion. So, if an armor had an A.R. of 13, any successful hit, bypassing the armor would still be reduced by 13 HP or SDC.

Alternatively, the amount of damage the armor actually absorbs, may be different than the difficulty of hitting the armor.

Just a couple of quick thoughts before I leave work. I'll try to post something more detailed later, after I have a chance to read the rest of the thread.

[J. Lionheart]

For those who dislike the armor system as presented, I've always been a fan of the simple solution of having A.R. check against the natural roll, and just using bonuses to determine if you hit the person or not.

It's simple, it restores the usefulness of armor, it doesn't eliminate the advantage of bonuses, and it is easy as all heck to figure out. Everybody who RP's understands the idea of using natural numbers.

Here are examples of the three possible outcomes.
In the examples, Alan has +5 to strike. Bob has +6 to parry and is in full plate armor, A.R. 17.

Example 1:

Alan attacks Bob, rolling a natural 18 to strike, giving a total of 23. Bob rolls a 13, for a total of 19, failing to parry. The natural stike roll was higher than the A.R. of 17. Bob is injured.

Example 2:

Alan attacks Bob, rolling a natural 15 to strike, giving a total of 20. Bob rolls a 5, for a total of 11, failing to parry. The natural roll was lower than the A.R. of 17. Bob's armor takes the blow.

Example 3:

Alan attacks Bob, rolling a natural 18 to strike, giving a total of 23. Bob rolls a 19 to parry, giving a total of 25. Bob parries Alan.