Bullets

[Killer Cyborg]

Are bullets like the Glitter Boy rounds or any other rail gun made out of MD material. I would think yes but reading the Glitter boy thread it seems some people just assume its regular material. I would think any SDC material no matter how fast it was going to would just stop once it hit an MD target.

I'm curious because wouldn't MD bullets be really really expensive? I don't know let me know what you think.

They're SDC metals, probably iron or steel.

As to why they inflict mega-damage, it's because they're travelling very, very, very fast.

[Nekira Sudacne]

take 1 pound of iron.

accelerate it to 80% light speed.


put a glitter boy in the way. what happens?

[Athos]

take 1 pound of iron.

accelerate it to 80% light speed.


put a glitter boy in the way. what happens?

Surely you don't think rail guns shoot projectiles at 80% the speed of light, do you?

[Nekira Sudacne]

take 1 pound of iron.

accelerate it to 80% light speed.


put a glitter boy in the way. what happens?

Surely you don't think rail guns shoot projectiles at 80% the speed of light, do you?

now. i'm demonstarting how the SDC hurting MDC works.

80% light speed would obliterate a glitter boy.

Mach 3 would damage it.

[Mack]

They're SDC metals, probably iron or steel.

Do you have a cannon reference for that?

[Nekira Sudacne]

They're SDC metals, probably iron or steel.

Do you have a cannon reference for that?

I'm pretty sure I read Iron somewhere, I sure as hell can't remember where.

in any case it has to be magnetic, or else the electromagic rail guns wont' work. Iron is simply the cheepest and most common magnetic metal

[Killer Cyborg]

They're SDC metals, probably iron or steel.

Do you have a cannon reference for that?

Since Tinker Dragoon saved me from looking it up...

so is there any Offical standard Railgun ammo anyway?

Yes. According to page 225 of the RMB, most rail guns fire "...metal spikes, balls, or rings..."

It goes on to say that the projectiles are "inexpensive to make and popular throughout the land."

So they're an inexpensive, magnetic metal.
Sounds like iron or steel to me.

[Mack]

So it's inferred, not actually stated. This is an important distinction.

[Killer Cyborg]

So it's inferred, not actually stated. This is an important distinction.

If you can think of an inexpensive, magnetic, MDC metal, you let me know...

If you're sitting there thinking that an SDC metal can't do MD, then keep in mind that Silver and Wooden railgun rounds inflict mega-damage.

[Mack]

So it's inferred, not actually stated. This is an important distinction.

If you can think of an inexpensive, magnetic, MDC metal, you let me know...

If you're sitting there thinking that an SDC metal can't do MD, then keep in mind that Silver and Wooden railgun rounds inflict mega-damage.

Nope, not thinking that at all. Just that it's not an actual, cannon refernce.

[Killer Cyborg]

What if you started using MD slugs instead of inexpensive metals? would that do more damage since its density is more superior already?

Probably not... it would have better penetration, but it wouldn't mushroom out as much.

[Killer Cyborg]

So it's inferred, not actually stated. This is an important distinction.

If you can think of an inexpensive, magnetic, MDC metal, you let me know...

If you're sitting there thinking that an SDC metal can't do MD, then keep in mind that Silver and Wooden railgun rounds inflict mega-damage.

Nope, not thinking that at all. Just that it's not an actual, cannon refernce.

Why's it matter?

[Dr. Doom III]

Why's it matter?

Some people need everything spelled out for them.
You understand that don't you?

*cough*making TW devices*cough*

[Killer Cyborg]

Why's it matter?

Some people need everything spelled out for them.
You understand that don't you?

*cough*making TW devices*cough*

Big difference.
With TW devices, there's no good reason to believe that PCs can invent new devices.
With railgun rounds, there's no good reason to believe that MDC metal would be used.

[Mack]

Why's it matter?

Because some posters (not pointing fingers here) confuse opinion with fact, and may mislead our newer brethern. That's why I always ask for book/page/cannon references.

[Killer Cyborg]

Why's it matter?

Because some posters (not pointing fingers here) confuse opinion with fact, and may mislead our newer brethern. That's why I always ask for book/page/cannon references.

So an answer of "There is no canon information directly spelling it out, but it is most likely the case that railgun rounds are SDC iron or steel" would do it for you?

[Mack]

Why's it matter?

Because some posters (not pointing fingers here) confuse opinion with fact, and may mislead our newer brethern. That's why I always ask for book/page/cannon references.

So an answer of "There is no canon information directly spelling it out, but it is most likely the case that railgun rounds are SDC iron or steel" would do it for you?

Yes, exactly.

Maybe it's a side effect of where I work, but such distinctions are important.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Would an MDC material actually be denser? Isn't the MDC armour the pinnacle of high strength and low weight? Because exceptionally heavy armour is the suck.

MDC alloy actually isn't very dence at all. it just has increadible molecualr bonds on the surface.

[Killer Cyborg]

Would an MDC material actually be denser? Isn't the MDC armour the pinnacle of high strength and low weight? Because exceptionally heavy armour is the suck.

Generally speaking, you're right.
However, certain heavy metals like Uranium might also be considered mega-damage.

[Devari]

I'd expect that boom gun rounds (or other rail gun ammunition) would be made of M.D.C. materials because this would provide the most effective penetration and damage potential. Although S.D.C. materials could inflict M.D. if moving fast enough, M.D.C. rounds would still be much more effective.

[BigLEE]

I'd expect that boom gun rounds (or other rail gun ammunition) would be made of M.D.C. materials because this would provide the most effective penetration and damage potential. Although S.D.C. materials could inflict M.D. if moving fast enough, M.D.C. rounds would still be much more effective.

More to the point, Mach 5 isn't fast enough to propel ordinary materials to do the extrordinary damage the Boom Gun does. Current tank rounds travel at or around Mach 5, have a lot more mass, and don't scatter.

Now if Boom Gun rounds travelled at Mach 15....

[Killer Cyborg]

I'd expect that boom gun rounds (or other rail gun ammunition) would be made of M.D.C. materials because this would provide the most effective penetration and damage potential. Although S.D.C. materials could inflict M.D. if moving fast enough, M.D.C. rounds would still be much more effective.

More to the point, Mach 5 isn't fast enough to propel ordinary materials to do the extrordinary damage the Boom Gun does. Current tank rounds travel at or around Mach 5, have a lot more mass, and don't scatter.

Now if Boom Gun rounds travelled at Mach 15....

The physics of Rifts is way messed up.
Forget that the BG rounds are supposed to go mach 5... or that they used to go mach 2.
The point is that Palladium pictures them as going REALLY fast... fast enough to inflict mega-damage.
But they're not physicists... they just pick a speed that sounds fast to them.

[Mack]

The point is that Palladium pictures them as going REALLY fast... fast enough to inflict mega-damage.
But they're not physicists... they just pick a speed that sounds fast to them.

[Zer0 Kay]

They're SDC metals, probably iron or steel.

Do you have a cannon reference for that?

Since Tinker Dragoon saved me from looking it up...

so is there any Offical standard Railgun ammo anyway?

Yes. According to page 225 of the RMB, most rail guns fire "...metal spikes, balls, or rings..."

It goes on to say that the projectiles are "inexpensive to make and popular throughout the land."

So they're an inexpensive, magnetic metal.
Sounds like iron or steel to me.

Isn't cobalt harder than steel? If it is Cobalt is magnetic.

[Zer0 Kay]

I'd expect that boom gun rounds (or other rail gun ammunition) would be made of M.D.C. materials because this would provide the most effective penetration and damage potential. Although S.D.C. materials could inflict M.D. if moving fast enough, M.D.C. rounds would still be much more effective.

More to the point, Mach 5 isn't fast enough to propel ordinary materials to do the extrordinary damage the Boom Gun does. Current tank rounds travel at or around Mach 5, have a lot more mass, and don't scatter.

Now if Boom Gun rounds travelled at Mach 15....

You mean like the real railguns DARPA is working on.

[Killer Cyborg]

Isn't cobalt harder than steel? If it is Cobalt is magnetic.

So... Cobolt is only magnetic if it's harder than steel...?

[Nekira Sudacne]

They're SDC metals, probably iron or steel.

Do you have a cannon reference for that?

Since Tinker Dragoon saved me from looking it up...

so is there any Offical standard Railgun ammo anyway?

Yes. According to page 225 of the RMB, most rail guns fire "...metal spikes, balls, or rings..."

It goes on to say that the projectiles are "inexpensive to make and popular throughout the land."

So they're an inexpensive, magnetic metal.
Sounds like iron or steel to me.

Isn't cobalt harder than steel? If it is Cobalt is magnetic.

also rarer, harder to get, and sinse it's the speed more than anything not much better. besides, it's not common enough really to see widespread use, not cheep.

[Killer Cyborg]

They're SDC metals, probably iron or steel.

Do you have a cannon reference for that?

Get it? Boom gun? Cannon? Ha!

Good one!

[Devari]

It's likely that M.D.C. railgun ammunition doesn't cost much, since it's just magnetic pieces of M.D.C. metal. In Chaos Earth they mention that pre-Rifts highways were made of M.D.C. concrete, so presumably small pieces of M.D.C. metal would also be inexpensive.

[Mack]

Or rail gun rounds could be made of a SDC metal core (for magnetism) then surrounded by a MDC material (for hardness).

[Killer Cyborg]

It's likely that M.D.C. railgun ammunition doesn't cost much, since it's just magnetic pieces of M.D.C. metal. In Chaos Earth they mention that pre-Rifts highways were made of M.D.C. concrete, so presumably small pieces of M.D.C. metal would also be inexpensive.

In the Golden Age, yes.. MDC metal would be cheap.
In Rifts Earth, I highly doubt that it would be nearly that cheap.
If it was, then everybody and their dog would have MDC armor.

[Devari]

It's likely that M.D.C. railgun ammunition doesn't cost much, since it's just magnetic pieces of M.D.C. metal. In Chaos Earth they mention that pre-Rifts highways were made of M.D.C. concrete, so presumably small pieces of M.D.C. metal would also be inexpensive.

In the Golden Age, yes.. MDC metal would be cheap.
In Rifts Earth, I highly doubt that it would be nearly that cheap.
If it was, then everybody and their dog would have MDC armor.

I think by "cheap" they mean relative to other weapons like mini-missiles and autocannon rounds. A mini-missile is made of M.D.C. materials, plus it also has explosives, electronics, a rocket engine and so on. Even an autocannon round is significantly more complicated than railgun ammo, since it carries explosives and uses some type of chemical propellant. So M.D.C. railgun ammunition would be much less expensive than any other type of ammo even though it would require the production of M.D.C. alloys. Iron Heart Armaments (which is described as having roughly 1960's-era manufacturing capabilities) can produce M.D.C. alloys using a relatively low level of technology, so it should be relatively simple for even basic industrial facilities in Rifts to produce M.D.C. railgun ammo.

[Mack]

If it was, then everybody and their dog would have MDC armor.

Wait a minute, according to everything printed after the RMB, everyone and there dogs do have armor! And their own SAM's! And GlitterBoys!

[Devari]

If it was, then everybody and their dog would have MDC armor.

Wait a minute, according to everything printed after the RMB, everyone and there dogs do have armor! And their own SAM's! And GlitterBoys!

What's worse is that everything that comes out of a rift doesn't even need armour, they're already M.D.C. creatures. I just got a copy of Coalition War Campaign, and even though I have trouble undestanding how the Coalition developed technology as advanced as Triax in the five years leading up to P.A. 105, I still think that M.D.C. equipment is much less of a problem than the O.C.C./R.C.C.s with natural M.D.C. armour.

[Dead Boy]

They're SDC metals, probably iron or steel.

Do you have a cannon reference for that?

Hell, I've got THREE references for ya.
1) As already pointed out by Tinker, Main Book, pg. 225, "A rail gun ... fires metal spikes, balls, or rings ..."

Note the term "metal". Not alloy, or composite materials, or wonder material X. Nope. Just common everyday metal. But there is a better reference that is less based on conjucture and more so on logic and solid reasoning.

2) WB:5 Triax & the NGR, pg. 141-142. Where it goes int how much damage DU-Rounds inflict there is a notation that says, "They typically do 25% more damage than a comparable standard metal cartridge."

Just like with the DU rounds fired from a contemporary tank, they hit harder than normal steel because they are made of a more dense material... that and they go really fast too. But normal rail gun rounds and DU rouds go equally fast, meaning that the only difference is the density of the materials they're made of. By the math and logic of NRG weapon, tey should be 25% harder than the material used to make "Standard Metal" rounds, and that puts them squarely in SDC-land.

3) I don't have my Vampire Kingdoms book handy, (so I can't give an exact page number) but I recall there being anti-vamp rail gun rounds made of silver that did half the noramal mega-damage on impact. There may have even been WOOD rounds (with metal cores) that also did MD when fired from a rail gun. Proof postitive that common SDC substances can inflict Mega Damage given sufficient force.

My best guess is that rail gun rounds are made from a high-carbon steel, possibly with a heavy lead core for added weight. That would enable them to maintain their shape at the hyper-sonic velocities they travel at and make them cheap to mass produce.

Isn't cobalt harder than steel? If it is Cobalt is magnetic.

I think it is. And I'm pretty sure it's also a little on the radioactive side too.

Or rail gun rounds could be made of a SDC metal core (for magnetism) then surrounded by a MDC material (for hardness).

Sure, that's possible too. In fact that's the whole idea of a jacketed round. To give it extra strength so it stand up to the strain of super-fast velocities. So long as the economics work out (i.e. it better be a really cheap MDC jacket), I see no problem with that possibility.

[Zer0 Kay]

So it's inferred, not actually stated. This is an important distinction.

If you can think of an inexpensive, magnetic, MDC metal, you let me know...

If you're sitting there thinking that an SDC metal can't do MD, then keep in mind that Silver and Wooden railgun rounds inflict mega-damage.

HEY EVERYONE!! Rail gun rounds do not need to be magnetic just conductive. They are accelerated between two rails that have a pulse passed through them the pulse creates electromotive force in a single direction... normally out the end of the barrel (but what happens if you reverse the leads or the electricities flow, what will happen?). Now if your talking about a coil gun that weapons rounds would have to be magnetic.

[Zer0 Kay]

Why's it matter?

Some people need everything spelled out for them.
You understand that don't you?

*cough*making TW devices*cough*

Big difference.
With TW devices, there's no good reason to believe that PCs can invent new devices.
With railgun rounds, there's no good reason to believe that MDC metal would be used.

Why use MDC material? For the same effect as a discarding sabot round of an M1 Abrams. The round penetrates one side and sucks everything inside out the other side.

[Zer0 Kay]

It's likely that M.D.C. railgun ammunition doesn't cost much, since it's just magnetic pieces of M.D.C. metal. In Chaos Earth they mention that pre-Rifts highways were made of M.D.C. concrete, so presumably small pieces of M.D.C. metal would also be inexpensive.

rail gun ammunition doesn't have to be magnetic just conductive. Coilgun ammuntion has to be magnetic. Who says that MDC material has to be metal? Maybe the actual concrete is MDC. Maybe the entire highway system was constructed by laying down concrete and nanites to align the molecules into MDC structure.

[Devari]

It's likely that M.D.C. railgun ammunition doesn't cost much, since it's just magnetic pieces of M.D.C. metal. In Chaos Earth they mention that pre-Rifts highways were made of M.D.C. concrete, so presumably small pieces of M.D.C. metal would also be inexpensive.

rail gun ammunition doesn't have to be magnetic just conductive. Coilgun ammuntion has to be magnetic. Who says that MDC material has to be metal? Maybe the actual concrete is MDC. Maybe the entire highway system was constructed by laying down concrete and nanites to align the molecules into MDC structure.

The "railguns" in Rifts are really coilguns. Even if you look at the barrels, they're round, which implies a coilgun design. So the ammunition just needs to be magnetic, it doesn't need to conduct current between rails. Despite the fact that KS decided to call them "railguns", the weapons described in Rifts are actually coilguns.

[Jefffar]

Who says a railgun's barrel can't be round?

[Devari]

Well, since a railgun design consists of two flat metal rails, the weapon barrel should have that same general shape. A coilgun, on the other hand, consists of a series of electromagnetic coils and would be expected to have a round barrel. You could always build a round housing around a railgun's barrel if you wanted to, but based on the appearance of the GB's boomgun and ammunition it seems obvious to me that the weapon is a coilgun. Also, the general description of Rifts "railguns" firing metal balls, spikes or rings tells me that these projectiles aren't designed to make contact with a set of rails and are just being electromagnetically accelerated.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Well, since a railgun design consists of two flat metal rails, the weapon barrel should have that same general shape. A coilgun, on the other hand, consists of a series of electromagnetic coils and would be expected to have a round barrel. You could always build a round housing around a railgun's barrel if you wanted to, but based on the appearance of the GB's boomgun and ammunition it seems obvious to me that the weapon is a coilgun. Also, the general description of Rifts "railguns" firing metal balls, spikes or rings tells me that these projectiles aren't designed to make contact with a set of rails and are just being electromagnetically accelerated.

so in the end it's a distinction without a difference in the final result (MD acceleration).

forgive me if I don't particurally find this mislabel to be a problem.

[Killer Cyborg]

Why's it matter?

Some people need everything spelled out for them.
You understand that don't you?

*cough*making TW devices*cough*

Big difference.
With TW devices, there's no good reason to believe that PCs can invent new devices.
With railgun rounds, there's no good reason to believe that MDC metal would be used.

Why use MDC material? For the same effect as a discarding sabot round of an M1 Abrams. The round penetrates one side and sucks everything inside out the other side.

It's not a question of WHY would somebody use MDC rounds.
It's a question of DO they use them.
And I've seen no evidence that railgun rounds are anything other than normal metal.

[Zer0 Kay]

It's likely that M.D.C. railgun ammunition doesn't cost much, since it's just magnetic pieces of M.D.C. metal. In Chaos Earth they mention that pre-Rifts highways were made of M.D.C. concrete, so presumably small pieces of M.D.C. metal would also be inexpensive.

rail gun ammunition doesn't have to be magnetic just conductive. Coilgun ammuntion has to be magnetic. Who says that MDC material has to be metal? Maybe the actual concrete is MDC. Maybe the entire highway system was constructed by laying down concrete and nanites to align the molecules into MDC structure.

The "railguns" in Rifts are really coilguns. Even if you look at the barrels, they're round, which implies a coilgun design. So the ammunition just needs to be magnetic, it doesn't need to conduct current between rails. Despite the fact that KS decided to call them "railguns", the weapons described in Rifts are actually coilguns.

Gee so why do they refer to it as a railgun which is very different from a coilgun. I'd be able to agree either way if they just called them gauss rifles. Just because the barrel is round doesn't mean it's a coilgun. Show me where the description shows that it's a coil gun. I like how you say that the ammo JUST has to be magnetic and not conductive. There are many conductive elements and only three magnetic elements. So for inexpensive and easy to manufacture ammunition a railgun would be less expensive than a coilgun.

[Devari]

so in the end it's a distinction without a difference in the final result (MD acceleration).

forgive me if I don't particurally find this mislabel to be a problem.

The distinction is relevant with regards to the type of ammo used. The type of ammo you'd use for a railgun needs to conduct electricity, while the type of ammo you'd use for a coilgun needs to be magnetic. I actually perfer the term "railgun" since this term is generally used in science fiction settings to refer to any type of electromagnetic accerlator. It was pointed out to me in another thread that what I tend to call a "railgun" is technically a "coilgun" however, so I've starting making the distiction because the two designs really work on different principles.

[Zer0 Kay]

Who says a railgun's barrel can't be round?

Zubb Zubb

[Devari]

Gee so why do they refer to it as a railgun which is very different from a coilgun. I'd be able to agree either way if they just called them gauss rifles. Just because the barrel is round doesn't mean it's a coilgun. Show me where the description shows that it's a coil gun.

I'm convinced that they're actually coilguns because the projectiles are described as being different shapes (balls, spikes and rings) that wouldn't make good contact with rails, the description of how the Rifts railguns work doesn't mention rails at all, and the term "railgun" is often used to refer to any type of electromagnetic accerlator. There's nothing in the description to directly refute the idea that they're railguns, but their description makes them sound a lot more like coilguns.

[Zer0 Kay]

Well, since a railgun design consists of two flat metal rails, the weapon barrel should have that same general shape. A coilgun, on the other hand, consists of a series of electromagnetic coils and would be expected to have a round barrel. You could always build a round housing around a railgun's barrel if you wanted to, but based on the appearance of the GB's boomgun and ammunition it seems obvious to me that the weapon is a coilgun. Also, the general description of Rifts "railguns" firing metal balls, spikes or rings tells me that these projectiles aren't designed to make contact with a set of rails and are just being electromagnetically accelerated.

You do realise that a rail gun can fire rings , spikes or balls by using an armiture. The Boomgun's rounds are just as unlikely in a coilgun because the flechettes wouldn't be traveling down the center so it wouldn't work in a coilgun. The ring concept is also stupid for a coil gun because they'd have to be fired from a post rail. Try developing a loading system for that.

[Zer0 Kay]

Gee so why do they refer to it as a railgun which is very different from a coilgun. I'd be able to agree either way if they just called them gauss rifles. Just because the barrel is round doesn't mean it's a coilgun. Show me where the description shows that it's a coil gun.

I'm convinced that they're actually coilguns because the projectiles are described as being different shapes (balls, spikes and rings) that wouldn't make good contact with rails, the description of how the Rifts railguns work doesn't mention rails at all, and the term "railgun" is often used to refer to any type of electromagnetic accerlator. There's nothing in the description to directly refute the idea that they're railguns, but their description makes them sound a lot more like coilguns.

And I cover that. It's called an armiture.

[Thinyser]

They're SDC metals, probably iron or steel.

Do you have a cannon reference for that?

I'm pretty sure I read Iron somewhere, I sure as hell can't remember where.

in any case it has to be magnetic, or else the electromagic rail guns wont' work. Iron is simply the cheepest and most common magnetic metal

Wrong on the "railguns need magnetic projectiles" bit there.
In RL aluminum and copper are the most common metals used in the armature (piece of metal that slides between the rails) which is what actually accelerates the projectile.

Though with Rifts tech they would probably have something better... maybe some ceramic-aluminum-tungsten hybred alloy that would be MDC but that would be somewhat pointless because as you said it is the speed at which it moves that causes the damage not the hardness of the substance.

In the movie The Eraser where Gov. Arnold protects some hot scientist lady (was it Vivica Fox) the hand held railgus fired aluminum slugs at some fraction of the speed of light like 1/4 or 1/3 or some such...wicked fast any way you slice it. However I remember thinking to myself that if it were going that fast the air friction alone would vaporize the aluminum as soon as it left the barrel (or maybe even inside the barrel) which would be a good arguement for MDC slugs. They could be shot at higher velocity than normal aluminum without said varporization due to friction..... just some thoughts....