Bleaaaaarrghfphb. Trans: (I have questions.)

[Splugorth]

Heya all, used to play RIFTS quite a bit and was thinking of revising the system for use in a new campaign, but then I was reading over the system, and I had a few questions for ya'll about what you think of RIFTS. I just figured I'd list the common complaints my players had with the system, and I was curious how you all handled them if you had these issue at all.

1 - Combat takes forever. Barring the use of personal artillery weapons, obscenely powerful magical artifacts, or the like... it takes an absolutely ludicrous amount of time to finish a single battle. 3d6 pistols take a heck of a long time to chip away things that have 100'ish MDC. Doesn't seem to fit with the "stories" in the books where a single blast can really hurt someone.

Also leads to the "I put my particle cannon next to my head and pull the trigger to show them how tuff I am." incidents.

2 - Magic: Not For Combat. Ok, so I read the long article in one of the books describing how magic can be useful in utilitarian ways, but has anyone really found a use for magic as directly offensive attacks? Going a step further, a lot of the psionic powers seem to be woefully underpowered. Ok, so you can catch someone with their (MDC) pants down using them, but still. It just seems like no matter what kind of character you play, everyone has to whip out a shoulder-mounted multi MD missile launcher if they want to do any damage.

3 - Dice rolls are too variable. With a single low roll you can permanently gimp your Ley Line Walker to having utter crud for PPE. You can have a Dragon Hatchling that's essentially 4x as tough as the Dragon Hatchling of another player. Etc.

And those are just a few. I could get into the "why do vehicle-mounted and robot-sized weapons suck so hard?", "how can Tolk fight the CS when mages in the books are so crappy in combat?", and other discussions we have now and again, but those are some of the main ones. Do most of you just completely rework the entire system with tons of house rules, or does anyone really play with it as-is?

Don't get me wrong, we all feel that the setting is awesome and has a ton of flavor and potential... but are we the only ones who kinda think the system itself needs a ton of house ruling to be viable at all? We were kinda disappointed when we learned that the "new" RIFTS will be mostly intact with a few "GM suggestions" added in.

Just curious.

Sorry if this is in the wrong forum.

Blearrghghgburblblle...

[grandmaster z0b]

Hi, welcome to the boards.
Yes, Rifts is confusing and the rules can at times, suck.
The thing about 3d6 pistols/4d6 rifles and vehicle weapons being soooo poor is one of my pet peeves, I don't want to play a game where it takes 5 shots or more to take out one guy in crappy armour. Allowing all weapons to burst helps this a lot, even if you use the flawed burst rules from the Rifts Main Book (of course any mention of upping the damage of weapons causes some to yell "Munchkin!").
As far as house rules go there are a lot of threads here, the most recent is: viewtopic.php?t=39083
If you search for "house rules" I'm sure you'll find all you need and more.
Good Luck!

[Dustin Fireblade]

Welcome to the forums. We all have the same questions.

On combat, I've used a number of house rules that make it go faster. Now as for the particle beam toughness test, well I would do a instant kill to the dummy that tried that test.

On magic see if you can get hold of Rifter #21 (its out of print) with its 'PPE Channeling' rules. That helps a lot.

On the dice rolls yeah that can present a problem, never really found a great way around it myself mechanics-wise, but has made for some good role-playing.

[glitterboy2098]

1 - Combat takes forever. Barring the use of personal artillery weapons, obscenely powerful magical artifacts, or the like... it takes an absolutely ludicrous amount of time to finish a single battle. 3d6 pistols take a heck of a long time to chip away things that have 100'ish MDC. Doesn't seem to fit with the "stories" in the books where a single blast can really hurt someone.

as posted above, burst weapons are a good use. also, you could rule "bleed through" damage, where things like the kinetic energy or thermal energy of a hit can transfer through to do SDC damage to the target. this would make that MDC armor more like a modern kevlar vest. if you do that though, i reccomend a 1:1 transfer, every 1 MD the armor gets the wearer gets 1 SD. (and remember, this would go both ways, the players can die of this as easily as everyone else.)

Also leads to the "I put my particle cannon next to my head and pull the trigger to show them how tuff I am." incidents.

generally, i'd apply the "pointblank" damage modifiers to stuff like that. (intended for grenades/explosives, but also works for stupidity. basically, it does 4x damage. , and i'd rule it blasts a hole into the helmet, so good by head.

2 - Magic: Not For Combat. Ok, so I read the long article in one of the books describing how magic can be useful in utilitarian ways, but has anyone really found a use for magic as directly offensive attacks? Going a step further, a lot of the psionic powers seem to be woefully underpowered. Ok, so you can catch someone with their (MDC) pants down using them, but still. It just seems like no matter what kind of character you play, everyone has to whip out a shoulder-mounted multi MD missile launcher if they want to do any damage.

PPE Channelling. balances the mage in combat nicely. Rifter #21.

3 - Dice rolls are too variable. With a single low roll you can permanently gimp your Ley Line Walker to having utter crud for PPE. You can have a Dragon Hatchling that's essentially 4x as tough as the Dragon Hatchling of another player. Etc.

part of me wants to say this isn't a bad thing, its realistic. but for game balance, a house rule where the players just roll for additions to a base pool for things like PPE/ISP might work, but you'd have to determain what works for you.

[ghost2020]

Of course the weapons are burst capable. It even said so in the first conversion book...before it was changed.

I never understood where the munchkinism creeped in. Rifts was always a deadly game...especially with burst rules. 150 mdc armor wasn't much against a few 1d4x10 or 1d6x10 or standard burst weapons. Dodging is a good thing, and it was with bonuses, not -10 and it cost an attack. The rules have always been quite playable from the main book even with the newer armors, the burst rules are the great equalizer.

I always give my players the option...you're being shot at...dodge or 'take it'. They choose to dodge more often than not, because they simply can't wager that the guy shooting is doing a single shot or a med burst, nor has some nasty pulse weapon.



The best burst home rules I've seen here , and that I use are, plus it's easier to use power packs with these rules than the % burst rules:

Short Burst:3 rounds, damage= one round x2, +1 to hit
Medium Burst:6 rounds, damage= one round x4, +2 to hit
Long Burst:9 rounds, damage= one round x6, +3 to hit- (2 attacks)

**Pistols, Plasma Ejectors and Borg weapons (forearm guns, rods, etc.) can do short bursts.**

[Killer Cyborg]

Heya all, used to play RIFTS quite a bit and was thinking of revising the system for use in a new campaign, but then I was reading over the system, and I had a few questions for ya'll about what you think of RIFTS. I just figured I'd list the common complaints my players had with the system, and I was curious how you all handled them if you had these issue at all.

1 - Combat takes forever. Barring the use of personal artillery weapons, obscenely powerful magical artifacts, or the like... it takes an absolutely ludicrous amount of time to finish a single battle. 3d6 pistols take a heck of a long time to chip away things that have 100'ish MDC. Doesn't seem to fit with the "stories" in the books where a single blast can really hurt someone.

Use the original burst/spray rules on p. 34 of the main book (and modified in CB1).
Any weapon with ROF: Standard that doesn't have a pre-set burst setting (like a pulse rifle or a railgun) can, if necessary, rip off a full clip at a foe for x7 damage.

So a Wilk's 320 pistol can do 1d6x7 MD in a pinch.

Also leads to the "I put my particle cannon next to my head and pull the trigger to show them how tuff I am." incidents.

The "Using Common Sense with SDC" rules now apply to MDC creatures as well. So any MDC creature doing this is pretty much dead.
Let them do it.

This isn't the same with MDC armor or power armor; the armor itself absorbs the damage.
Still, let them do it.
Then have the NPCs respond with called shots to the guy's now-damaged helmet.

2 - Magic: Not For Combat. Ok, so I read the long article in one of the books describing how magic can be useful in utilitarian ways, but has anyone really found a use for magic as directly offensive attacks?

Find out about the PPE-Channeling rules, or make some other houserule to compensate for the slow casting speed.

Going a step further, a lot of the psionic powers seem to be woefully underpowered. Ok, so you can catch someone with their (MDC) pants down using them, but still. It just seems like no matter what kind of character you play, everyone has to whip out a shoulder-mounted multi MD missile launcher if they want to do any damage.

It's not always about doing massive damage.
Or rather, it shouldn't alway be about that.

3 - Dice rolls are too variable. With a single low roll you can permanently gimp your Ley Line Walker to having utter crud for PPE. You can have a Dragon Hatchling that's essentially 4x as tough as the Dragon Hatchling of another player. Etc.

Life sucks, get a helmet.

Or just give everybody the option of either taking their chances with the dice or automatically taking the average:
2.5 on a D4
3.5 on a D6
and so on.

And those are just a few. I could get into the "why do vehicle-mounted and robot-sized weapons suck so hard?",

Because the writers stupidly want to keep ultra-powerful vehicles from getting instant kills against PCs.

My house rule is that any vehicle-mounted energy weapon (except for certain energy cannons can fire bursts/sprays as per the rules on p. 34 of the main book.

Also, I allow railguns to do the same thing.

"how can Tolk fight the CS when mages in the books are so crappy in combat?",

Because a mage with proper preparation is far more powerful than any grunt. They can use armor and guns like anybody else, but they can also (if they have prep time) fly, have Armor of Ithan, be Impervious to Energy, etc. etc.

and other discussions we have now and again, but those are some of the main ones. Do most of you just completely rework the entire system with tons of house rules, or does anyone really play with it as-is?

There are too many inconsistancies and gaps for it to be possible to play exactly as-is.

[ghost2020]

Mr. Killer Cyborg and myself seem to be on the same page for the robot/vehicle weapons. Oh yeah...they burst fire. That's my home rule too. Makes that guy running that piddly 4d6 anti-personnel weapon a real threat.

[Levi]

Well Splugorth, you may want to check out Rifter #30. Slag and I wrote an article called A Cut Above (I know, shameless plug) that has several optional rules to make M.D.C. combat in Rifts more gritty and dangerous. The rules include an extensive list of modifiers for combat situations, slightly modified burst rules, rules for cover, and armor damage pass threw. When used together combat becomes very dangerous. And there are also some new skills in the article for modifying magic as a spell is cast increasing damage, range, or casting speed. This can also help mages in combat.

I agree, without burst weapons combat is a little slow and cumbersome.

As for magic and psionics, there are several more potent combat spells in WB 16: Federation of Magic (and reprinted in the Rifts: Guide to Magic), and there are many new psionics in Psyscape (reprinted in the Rifts: Game Masters Guide) and in Rifter #25: Enthralled (another shameless plug, as this is also an article I wrote). Alot of the new spells and psionics help with bonuses and a few do pretty good damage.

Oh, and welcome back to Rifts. I hope you have fun with it.

[Warwolf]

Order of authority: GM -> KS -> books ->Doom III (sorry, couldn't resist) -> players -> JoJo the clown -> Spot.

You forgot rules lawyers (nevermind, now I see Doom ) and floopers.

Oh, and the GM's girlfriend/wife generally ranks either just below or just above him. (So it isn't a politically correct statement, so what?)

[Nekira Sudacne]

Heya all, used to play RIFTS quite a bit and was thinking of revising the system for use in a new campaign, but then I was reading over the system, and I had a few questions for ya'll about what you think of RIFTS. I just figured I'd list the common complaints my players had with the system, and I was curious how you all handled them if you had these issue at all.

1 - Combat takes forever. Barring the use of personal artillery weapons, obscenely powerful magical artifacts, or the like... it takes an absolutely ludicrous amount of time to finish a single battle. 3d6 pistols take a heck of a long time to chip away things that have 100'ish MDC. Doesn't seem to fit with the "stories" in the books where a single blast can really hurt someone.

I have "standard" mean "full auto" for burst purposes. sure, you blow though ammo but I make recharges easy.

also, try using the heaver guns. there are handguns that do 5d6 MD to 1d4*10 MD. Rifles go as high as 1d6x10+10 MD

Also leads to the "I put my particle cannon next to my head and pull the trigger to show them how tuff I am." incidents.

headshots automatically do double damage direct to HP.

2 - Magic: Not For Combat. Ok, so I read the long article in one of the books describing how magic can be useful in utilitarian ways, but has anyone really found a use for magic as directly offensive attacks? Going a step further, a lot of the psionic powers seem to be woefully underpowered. Ok, so you can catch someone with their (MDC) pants down using them, but still. It just seems like no matter what kind of character you play, everyone has to whip out a shoulder-mounted multi MD missile launcher if they want to do any damage.

all non-ritual magic takes 1 melee action and required PPE. same as psionics. watch as all problems with mages fade away

3 - Dice rolls are too variable. With a single low roll you can permanently gimp your Ley Line Walker to having utter crud for PPE. You can have a Dragon Hatchling that's essentially 4x as tough as the Dragon Hatchling of another player. Etc.

variable is part of the fun of the game. sometimes you start with a handicap. the thing is, don't let that hold you down.

you could have the dragon find an alchmist that's got an experimental (but sucessful) magic that will permantly increase his MDC. or the ley line walkers PPE. don't make it easy, but if hte player starts with a handicap like that, put something in teh game that can later fix it. if one's not in the book, make one up

And those are just a few. I could get into the "why do vehicle-mounted and robot-sized weapons suck so hard?",

because Palladium dosn't like one hit kills. why? beats me.

"how can Tolk fight the CS when mages in the books are so crappy in combat?", and other discussions we have now and again, but those are some of the main ones. Do most of you just completely rework the entire system with tons of house rules, or does anyone really play with it as-is?

Don't get me wrong, we all feel that the setting is awesome and has a ton of flavor and potential... but are we the only ones who kinda think the system itself needs a ton of house ruling to be viable at all? We were kinda disappointed when we learned that the "new" RIFTS will be mostly intact with a few "GM suggestions" added in.

Just curious.

Sorry if this is in the wrong forum.

Blearrghghgburblblle...

yea, I dont' mind house rules though.

[Splugorth]

Well... let me clarify.

We don't have any trouble coming up with house rules that work. We're not dumb. However, with this many house rules, you aren't playing RIFTS at all. We finally broke down how often we used house rules in a given night, and it was pretty much on every single roll or action taken. At that point, you're playing... well, your own homebrew system with the RIFTS setting.

I have Federation of Magic, and there are a few more powerful spells in there... but they're still completely gimpy compared to weapons (with the exception of a couple like Sphere of Annihilation or whatever it's called, which most mages can't even cast even if they learn it.) What makes it worse is that they completely drain a mage in short order for less damage than they'd get out of just firing a gun in the first place. And that doesn't even touch the fact that a human magician in RIFTS can't even cast the really good spells even once because of PPE limits. Mass-applying burst and full auto to ranged weapons wholesale as a band-aid seems a little... off, but I guess it could work.

Anyway, the point wasn't to gripe about the system exactly.

It was more to ask a question about people who play RIFTS.

The common answer to the questions on this thread was something like "but the GM could change the rules so that it would be sensible...", which is basically what I expected. It really is a shame that a setting like RIFTS has a system that's basically thrown out the window universally by every player that's invested any real portion of time in the game.

Does -anyone- play RIFTS "by the book"? (Yes, I'm aware that just about every GM/DM/Ref/etc uses a few house rules here and there for any system around, but it's the difference between dipping your slice of pizza in a tiny bit of ranch sauce and just throwing the whole pizza in a vat of Thousand Islands.)

That said, what keeps people playing RIFTS?

It obviously isn't the system.

So what do you all like that keeps your group focused on RIFTS in particular?

(For us, it was the overall freedom of the setting.)

[Killer Cyborg]

Well... let me clarify.

We don't have any trouble coming up with house rules that work. We're not dumb. However, with this many house rules, you aren't playing RIFTS at all. We finally broke down how often we used house rules in a given night, and it was pretty much on every single roll or action taken. At that point, you're playing... well, your own homebrew system with the RIFTS setting.

I ran into the same problem; it became simpler to write my own system than to fix Palladium's.

I have Federation of Magic, and there are a few more powerful spells in there... but they're still completely gimpy compared to weapons. What makes it worse is that they completely drain a mage in short order for less damage than they'd get out of just firing a gun in the first place. And that doesn't even touch the fact that a human magician in RIFTS can't even cast the really good spells even once because of PPE limits.

The Sub-Particle Accelleration spell does more damage than an NG-P7 Particle Beam Rifle.
And the spells that knock out tech devices are obscene.
Not to mention that the FoM spells up the power level for low level characters... no more waiting until 4th or 5th level to cast a decent damage spell.

Mass-applying burst and full auto to ranged weapons wholesale as a band-aid seems a little... off, but I guess it could work.

Any weapon with ROF of "Aimed, Burst, Wild" or "Standard" is officially supposed to be burst capable.
Unless the weapon has ROF: Standard, but has a specific burst setting already or is a single shot weapon.

Applying them to vehicles is just a common sense house rule.

Anyway, the point wasn't to gripe about the system exactly.

It was more to ask a question about people who play RIFTS.

The common answer to the questions on this thread was something like "but the GM could change the rules so that it would be sensible...", which is basically what I expected. It really is a shame that a setting like RIFTS has a system that's basically thrown out the window universally by every player that's invested any real portion of time in the game.

Yes.
Yes it is.

Does -anyone- play RIFTS "by the book"? (Yes, I'm aware that just about every GM/DM/Ref/etc uses a few house rules here and there for any system around, but it's the difference between dipping your slice of pizza in a tiny bit of ranch sauce and just throwing the whole pizza in a vat of Thousand Islands.)

No.
Nobody does; there are too many conflicts, gaps, inconsistancies, and vague wordings for anybody to actually play "By The Book."
Even Kevin Siembieda doesn't play by the official rules.

That said, what keeps people playing RIFTS?

Personally, I can't play Rifts.
All the stuff Palladium has done to mess up the setting and the rules has given me a Clockwork Orange-style aversion to playing it.

It obviously isn't the system.

It's the setting.
It's a brilliant setting, at least originally. It was original, yet it could include absolutely anything that your mind could come up with.

[Mack]

I have Federation of Magic, and there are a few more powerful spells in there... but they're still completely gimpy compared to weapons (with the exception of a couple like Sphere of Annihilation or whatever it's called, which most mages can't even cast even if they learn it.) What makes it worse is that they completely drain a mage in short order for less damage than they'd get out of just firing a gun in the first place. And that doesn't even touch the fact that a human magician in RIFTS can't even cast the really good spells even once because of PPE limits. Mass-applying burst and full auto to ranged weapons wholesale as a band-aid seems a little... off, but I guess it could work.

Mages aren't supposed to be warriors.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I actually have surprisingly few houserules.

[DhAkael]

Heya all, used to play RIFTS quite a bit and was thinking of revising the system for use in a new campaign, but then I was reading over the system, and I had a few questions for ya'll about what you think of RIFTS. I just figured I'd list the common complaints my players had with the system, and I was curious how you all handled them if you had these issue at all.

1 - Combat takes forever. Barring the use of personal artillery weapons, obscenely powerful magical artifacts, or the like... it takes an absolutely ludicrous amount of time to finish a single battle. 3d6 pistols take a heck of a long time to chip away things that have 100'ish MDC. Doesn't seem to fit with the "stories" in the books where a single blast can really hurt someone.

Also leads to the "I put my particle cannon next to my head and pull the trigger to show them how tuff I am." incidents.

2 - Magic: Not For Combat. Ok, so I read the long article in one of the books describing how magic can be useful in utilitarian ways, but has anyone really found a use for magic as directly offensive attacks? Going a step further, a lot of the psionic powers seem to be woefully underpowered. Ok, so you can catch someone with their (MDC) pants down using them, but still. It just seems like no matter what kind of character you play, everyone has to whip out a shoulder-mounted multi MD missile launcher if they want to do any damage.

3 - Dice rolls are too variable. With a single low roll you can permanently gimp your Ley Line Walker to having utter crud for PPE. You can have a Dragon Hatchling that's essentially 4x as tough as the Dragon Hatchling of another player. Etc.

And those are just a few. I could get into the "why do vehicle-mounted and robot-sized weapons suck so hard?", "how can Tolk fight the CS when mages in the books are so crappy in combat?", and other discussions we have now and again, but those are some of the main ones. Do most of you just completely rework the entire system with tons of house rules, or does anyone really play with it as-is?

Don't get me wrong, we all feel that the setting is awesome and has a ton of flavor and potential... but are we the only ones who kinda think the system itself needs a ton of house ruling to be viable at all? We were kinda disappointed when we learned that the "new" RIFTS will be mostly intact with a few "GM suggestions" added in.

Just curious.

Sorry if this is in the wrong forum.

Blearrghghgburblblle...

Hiya there...
In spite of a number of gimps in these here boards (who will remain nameless) who tend to be complete dip-stiks if you take a disenting view to "THE WORD" of Kevin Siembiada, I have no problems lambasting the discrepencises that are rife through the entire game line.
Don't get me wrong, I love the setting and 'the infinite possibilites' that the main theme allows, but yeah....I take about 90% of what is written in the books and just chuck it into the garbage as "useless dren".
And yes, this means house-rules a-plenty in my games. I know purist bean-counter rules lawyers hate that sort of thing but tough nutz to them.
If something is broke, throw it away or fix it...so I do both
It's worked for me and everyone who has stayed on with my game crew for over 10 years, so I must be doing something right.
Hate to break it to you, but sadly Rifts (and the Palladium system) will never be completely fixed; it's up to the individual game masters and player groups to fix and fiddle until it is workable.

[DhAkael]

Rifts (n) A game where players must discard a set of illogical or difficult rules and implement their own set lest they go mad debating them all day and night in forums

What he said

[grandmaster z0b]

Mages aren't supposed to be warriors.

I actually think this is a bit simplistic, what about the Battle Magus? They are obviously warriors who use magic, and most techno-wizard devices are weapons. Also if they aren't supposed to be warriors why even have spells like call lightning?

I see magic and technology as just being different souces of power, you could play a warrior who uses technology or one who uses magic.

The problem is that why would a mage bother to use "call lightning" if he/she can just pull out a rifle that does over 1d6x10? You would have to be over 10th level to do that kind of damage and by the traditional rules it would still take half of their attacks and therefore would leave them open to attack and being distrupted.

I think the spells from FoM did improve the situation greatly, especially when combined with PPE channeling or some other system to speed spell casting.

A warrior always would have the advantage of being better in combat, and granted a mage shouldn't be the greatest warrior, but it shouldn't totally resign them to a support role either. Just as the mage is the master of magic, not combat, so is the operator the master of technology without being the greatest soldier.

[Killer Cyborg]

Personally, I can't play Rifts.
All the stuff Palladium has done to mess up the setting and the rules has given me a Clockwork Orange-style aversion to playing it.

It obviously isn't the system.

Wait, KC... do you play any PB games? Or you just used to play?

I haven't had much chance to play much of anything lately, but I haven't played Palladium in probably a couple years now.
My old gaming group split up... some moved away and the rest have just wandered into different social groups..
I got into a new group that played AD&D 3rd Edition, but now some of them have moved off and the rest of us can't seem to get together on any regular basis.
I really tried to run a Rifts game for this group, but I just couldn't force myself to do it... just the thought of trying to teach them the messed up system makes me cringe.

And on the note of rules: I don't use the PB system anymore. Or, I'm trying new ones. I'm in the process of converting to a new ruleset... but the setting is just too awesome. You can do anything, the freedom is awesome.

I've tried converting Rifts to other systems, but every change in the rules means a huge change in the game. Mega-damage alone is something that's impossible to recreate in other systems... something is always a bit weird about translating it.