Recharging E-clips.

[Kalinda]

Of course the simple answer here is that KS pulled a number out of his um, back pocket, basing it more on game balance then real world economics.

This is why I'd like to see a bit in ultimate rifts about E-clips and how they are recharged, so we can tell if he put any real thought into it.

Based on the fact that he still hasn't published prices for railgun ammo, I'm betting he didn't.

Not exactly a detail man our KS...

[glitterboy2098]

Yes.
But it's STILL not $1,000 a bottle.

nope, just sold at a thousand + times what its worth.......

Big difference though.
The only reason why it can charge that high of a percentage is because it's still affordable for people.
You'll note that more expensive items, like cars, computers, toasters, and houses generally don't charge 1000x the production cost.

Define affordable.

Cheap enough that people can afford to pay for it (regardless of how overpriced it is).
Most people CAN afford $5 (or whatever the current price is) for a bottle of water; they just don't.
But 1500-2000 Credits is one heck of a lot of money... even people who want their E-clips recharged might not have that kind of cash.
It's a high enough price that if it weren't necessary, then other operators would undercut it just for the substantial boost in business that the lower prices would bring.

remember barter and bargining is alive and well in rifts.

Operator: "that'll be 2000 creds to recharge that thar clip..."
Headhunter: "500."
OP: "1500"
HH: "1000, and 2 cans of NG condensed milk"
OP: "deal"

[Devari]

So what do I actually do in your game, if I want to play for challenge?

Keep in mind that a character will likely only carry 4 to 6 E-clips for their weapon, and if they are firing bursts they could run out of ammo very quickly. They can't exactly run back to another character's power armour or robot and get a 4 hour E-clip recharge in the middle of combat, so they still have to worry about ammo consumption in battles. And ammo is generally a secondary consideration in most games, so the highlight of the gaming session shouldn't be getting your E-clip recharged.

Your running off a chain of game world logic which supports a different style of play, where how the game works, is what excites the players. Valid style. As is one where the players seek to beat challenges in the game world. Got any help with the latter, rather than the former?

It seems to me that the most obvious reason for high E-clip recahrge costs is the high cost of nuclear power supplies. If you want E-clip charging to remain expensive even when the characters have access to a nuclear power supply, you can always keep it that way. But enforcing arbitrary restrictions without any rationale doesn't necessarily make for a fun game if the players see the giant robot firing away with its own lasers all day and can't afford a recharge on their Wilk's laser pistol. I'd personally recommend thinking of different challenges that the players can overcome that a fully charged E-clip won't help them deal with (such as energy resistant enemies for example).

Not all PA and robots HAVE built-in energy weapons.

But the ones that do can fire them indefinately. So by simply installing an energy weapon and connecting it to the vehicle's power supply, the character effectively has unlimited ammo for their energy weapon. I don't see how allowing E-clip charging unbalances things, especially if it requires 4 hours to fully charge the E-clip.

Because it makes them appreciate the robot/vehicle/PA more, for one thing.

If they rely on it for fire support and E-clip recharging, they'll have more than one reason to protect it.

You really haven't noticed that energy pistols and rifles are usually more powerful than vehicle/robot energy weapons...?
Or maybe in your game you have house rules to adjust things, but those are just your own house rules.

Well, you can argue that the basic rules allow you to fire bursts from power armor or robot energy weapons (the Macross II rules state this directly, so I assume Rifts robots can also fire bursts). So even though they don't inflict more damage per single blast, robot energy weapons can fire continously on burst settings that will drain an infantry weapon in one or two bursts. When you factor in continuous burst fire, robot energy weapons are considerably more effective than infantry ones.

And, for that matter, even if you DO have vehicle/bot/PA weapons that are more powerful than the hand weapons, it's STILL a good idea to limit things. Not every fight is going to occur someplace where the party will have access to their tank... at least, not when I run things.

The main thing is this:
The books have really steep prices for recharging E-clips.
This implies that there is something difficult, dangerous, or expensive about the process itself.
You can say that the Operators are just price-gouging the customers, but that's like charging 6,000 credits for a glass of water... only the complete scumbags are going to do it if water isn't a limited resource
It's simple supply and demand; if recharging is easy to do, and there's an unlimited supply of it, then there's NO reason why the prices would be so high.
But the prices ARE high, ergo there must be some limiting factors on things.

I'm convinced that the high prices are due to the cost of nulcear power supplies. If a nuclear power supply for a 25 million credit robot costs 15-20 million credits on its own, this tells me that nuclear power supplies are much more expensive than M.D.C. weapons, amour, and even robotic electronics and could easily explain the high E-clip recharge costs. But ultimately it is up to the GM to decide how they want to handle this, since unfortuantely the main rules don't provide any details.

[grandmaster z0b]

That's a good point, if a large nuclear generator costs hundreds of thousands of credits then it would make sense if it costs about 2000 credits to recharge a clip. Especially if you take into consideration the operators' wages, maintenance and any fuel for the generator (let's not start with whether a rifts nuclear engine needs uranium or not).

Still the cost of things are dictated by supply and demand, if it was easy to recharge an e-clip with the reactor in a PA or Robot then the supply goes up and the demand goes down. Either will push the price down. So either not that many mercaneries and adventurers have access to nuclear reactors, or there is some other advantage that the e-clip recharger has. Either the recharge time is significantly superior (5 mins versus 1 hour) or possibly recharging from a generator not designed for the job will reduce the lifespan of the e-clip.

[Killer Cyborg]

Not all PA and robots HAVE built-in energy weapons.

But the ones that do can fire them indefinately. So by simply installing an energy weapon and connecting it to the vehicle's power supply, the character effectively has unlimited ammo for their energy weapon. I don't see how allowing E-clip charging unbalances things, especially if it requires 4 hours to fully charge the E-clip.

Because it makes them appreciate the robot/vehicle/PA more, for one thing.

If they rely on it for fire support and E-clip recharging, they'll have more than one reason to protect it.

You really haven't noticed that energy pistols and rifles are usually more powerful than vehicle/robot energy weapons...?
Or maybe in your game you have house rules to adjust things, but those are just your own house rules.

Well, you can argue that the basic rules allow you to fire bursts from power armor or robot energy weapons (the Macross II rules state this directly, so I assume Rifts robots can also fire bursts). So even though they don't inflict more damage per single blast, robot energy weapons can fire continously on burst settings that will drain an infantry weapon in one or two bursts. When you factor in continuous burst fire, robot energy weapons are considerably more effective than infantry ones.

Officially, weapons with an ROF of "Equal to the combined number of melee attacks" can't use the burst/spray rules from the main book.

And, for that matter, even if you DO have vehicle/bot/PA weapons that are more powerful than the hand weapons, it's STILL a good idea to limit things. Not every fight is going to occur someplace where the party will have access to their tank... at least, not when I run things.

The main thing is this:
The books have really steep prices for recharging E-clips.
This implies that there is something difficult, dangerous, or expensive about the process itself.
You can say that the Operators are just price-gouging the customers, but that's like charging 6,000 credits for a glass of water... only the complete scumbags are going to do it if water isn't a limited resource
It's simple supply and demand; if recharging is easy to do, and there's an unlimited supply of it, then there's NO reason why the prices would be so high.
But the prices ARE high, ergo there must be some limiting factors on things.

I'm convinced that the high prices are due to the cost of nulcear power supplies. If a nuclear power supply for a 25 million credit robot costs 15-20 million credits on its own, this tells me that nuclear power supplies are much more expensive than M.D.C. weapons, amour, and even robotic electronics and could easily explain the high E-clip recharge costs. But ultimately it is up to the GM to decide how they want to handle this, since unfortuantely the main rules don't provide any details.

Nuclear power supplies are as cheap as 1 million credits and as high as 15 million credits.
Or, stupidly enough, you could just buy something that has a nuclear power source already installed inside it.
For example, a suit of Terrain Hopper costs only CR 500,000, and it comes with a fully charged nuclear power source that's good for 10 years.
Not to mention the number of OCCs that can start with a nuclear powered vehicle or suit of PA.

[Devari]

Officially, weapons with an ROF of "Equal to the combined number of melee attacks" can't use the burst/spray rules from the main book.

There is so much confusion and contradiction regarding weapon rate of fire rules that I wouldn't be surprized if robot energy weapons officially couldn't fire bursts. But only allowing infantry energy weapons to fire bursts is totally retarded, regardless of whether it happens to be official. If robot energy weapons were actually that inferior to infantry weapons, people would just start mounting Wilk's laser rifles on their robot vehicles and connecting them to the robot's nuclear power supply. Actually, the Chipwell Assault Suit has a modified Wilk's laser rifle built into the suit (which actually has slightly increased damaged), so if Chipwell can do it I'd assume Triax and everyone else can too. So either robot energy weapons can't fire bursts and no one except Chipwell has tried to mount infantry weapons on power armour suits to overcome this limitation, or the current official rules are retarded and common sense needs to be used.

Nuclear power supplies are as cheap as 1 million credits and as high as 15 million credits.
Or, stupidly enough, you could just buy something that has a nuclear power source already installed inside it.
For example, a suit of Terrain Hopper costs only CR 500,000, and it comes with a fully charged nuclear power source that's good for 10 years.
Not to mention the number of OCCs that can start with a nuclear powered vehicle or suit of PA.

True, you could buy a small nuclear power supply for 1 million credits or less, but it would have a much lower power output than a robot's nuclear power supply. So the GM would probably assign certain limitations when charging E-clips off a power armour supply in comparison to a robot's power supply (for example, maybe recharging an E-clip from a power armour supply takes 12 hours while regarging from a robot supply takes 4 hours). The point is that a nuclear power supply is the most expensive item a Rifts character will own (the power armour or robot itself will only cost about 20% of the total cost with the nuclear supply being around 80%). The fact that the characters have a nuclear power supply in the first place puts them in an extremely rare situation compared to the vast majority of people on Rifts earth, and I think that having them recharge their E-clips from their nuclear power supply is a very reasonable use that doesn't unbalance the game at all.

And even if they bought a 1 million credit nuclear power supply to charge their E-clips, how many E-clip recharges would they need to break even? If it costs 2000 per recharge, they'd need to use it 500 times just to recover the cost of purchasing the nuclear power supply, which means that the characters aren't going to be making a profit anytime soon. They'd be better off paying the normal recharge price in a city rather than trying to buy a nuclear power supply just for charging E-clips.

[Killer Cyborg]

Officially, weapons with an ROF of "Equal to the combined number of melee attacks" can't use the burst/spray rules from the main book.

There is so much confusion and contradiction regarding weapon rate of fire rules that I wouldn't be surprized if robot energy weapons officially couldn't fire bursts. But only allowing infantry energy weapons to fire bursts is totally retarded, regardless of whether it happens to be official. If robot energy weapons were actually that inferior to infantry weapons, people would just start mounting Wilk's laser rifles on their robot vehicles and connecting them to the robot's nuclear power supply. Actually, the Chipwell Assault Suit has a modified Wilk's laser rifle built into the suit (which actually has slightly increased damaged), so if Chipwell can do it I'd assume Triax and everyone else can too. So either robot energy weapons can't fire bursts and no one except Chipwell has tried to mount infantry weapons on power armour suits to overcome this limitation, or the current official rules are retarded and common sense needs to be used.

You have a firm grasp on the situation.
Personally, I house-rule that all vehicle mounted energy weapons can burst fire.

Nuclear power supplies are as cheap as 1 million credits and as high as 15 million credits.
Or, stupidly enough, you could just buy something that has a nuclear power source already installed inside it.
For example, a suit of Terrain Hopper costs only CR 500,000, and it comes with a fully charged nuclear power source that's good for 10 years.
Not to mention the number of OCCs that can start with a nuclear powered vehicle or suit of PA.

True, you could buy a small nuclear power supply for 1 million credits or less, but it would have a much lower power output than a robot's nuclear power supply.

Nah, it's from the list in SB1 for Robot Power Supplies.
The downside is that the 1 million CR one only lasts a year.

So the GM would probably assign certain limitations when charging E-clips off a power armour supply in comparison to a robot's power supply (for example, maybe recharging an E-clip from a power armour supply takes 12 hours while regarging from a robot supply takes 4 hours). The point is that a nuclear power supply is the most expensive item a Rifts character will own (the power armour or robot itself will only cost about 20% of the total cost with the nuclear supply being around 80%). The fact that the characters have a nuclear power supply in the first place puts them in an extremely rare situation compared to the vast majority of people on Rifts earth, and I think that having them recharge their E-clips from their nuclear power supply is a very reasonable use that doesn't unbalance the game at all.

And even if they bought a 1 million credit nuclear power supply to charge their E-clips, how many E-clip recharges would they need to break even? If it costs 2000 per recharge, they'd need to use it 500 times just to recover the cost of purchasing the nuclear power supply, which means that the characters aren't going to be making a profit anytime soon. They'd be better off paying the normal recharge price in a city rather than trying to buy a nuclear power supply just for charging E-clips.

IF they only bought the nuclear power supply for the purpose of recharging weapons, you'd be right.
But most nuclear power supplies are hooked into something that is well worth the cost in its own right, and that can make back its money without the owner recharging a single E-Clip from the power source.
The E-clip money would be gravy.

[Devari]

You have a firm grasp on the situation.
Personally, I house-rule that all vehicle mounted energy weapons can burst fire.

I do the same thing, since this makes vehicle energy weapons much more effective. I use the burst rules from Conversion Book One (long burst inflicts 3x damage, full burst inflicts 7x damage) since these values help keep energy weapon burst damage from getting too powerful.

Nah, it's from the list in SB1 for Robot Power Supplies.
The downside is that the 1 million CR one only lasts a year.

I was thinking of a typical power armour suit that would have a 1 million credit nuclear supply built into it, I didn't notice the nuclear power supply prices for robots in Sourcebook One.

IF they only bought the nuclear power supply for the purpose of recharging weapons, you'd be right.
But most nuclear power supplies are hooked into something that is well worth the cost in its own right, and that can make back its money without the owner recharging a single E-Clip from the power source.
The E-clip money would be gravy.

Actually, nuclear powered vehicles are often very inefficient in terms of cost because you could buy several fuel or electric powered vehicles for the same price. A nuclear powered vehicle can have a really hard time making back its cost because a 25 million credit robot can't take on six 4 million credit Iron Hammer battle tanks (one or two Iron Hammer tanks can destroy most robots). The convenience of the nulcear power supply is worth the cost to most characters, and in the case of robots they require nuclear supplies since you can't run them off fuel or electric engines, but they are still very expensive. So I think that E-clip recharging is a relatively minor advantage considering how expensive nuclear powered vehicles are in comparison to fuel or electric powered vehicles.

[Killer Cyborg]

nuclear powered vehicles are often very inefficient in terms of cost because you could buy several fuel or electric powered vehicles for the same price. A nuclear powered vehicle can have a really hard time making back its cost because a 25 million credit robot can't take on six 4 million credit Iron Hammer battle tanks (one or two Iron Hammer tanks can destroy most robots). The convenience of the nulcear power supply is worth the cost to most characters, and in the case of robots they require nuclear supplies since you can't run them off fuel or electric engines, but they are still very expensive. So I think that E-clip recharging is a relatively minor advantage considering how expensive nuclear powered vehicles are in comparison to fuel or electric powered vehicles.

You seem to be thinking about a large scale military operation, but that's not what most people in Rifts deal with.
The advantages of Nuclear powered vehicles is that you never have to buy fuel for them (not for years, anyway). This means not only do you save fuel costs, but it also means that you never have to worry about running out of gas or electricity in the middle of the wilderness. And Rifts Earth is FULL of wilderness.

And you don't need to take on multiple tanks in order to make money with a vehicle or suit of power armor.... in fact, only a fool would even try such a scenario unless things were absolutely desperate.
Power armor takes 8000 credits for every 10 MDC of repairs, and robot vehicles take 40,000 credits per 10 MDC.
Unless you're getting paid one heck of a lot of cash, this will not be worth it for you financially, even if you do win.

[Devari]

You seem to be thinking about a large scale military operation, but that's not what most people in Rifts deal with.
The advantages of Nuclear powered vehicles is that you never have to buy fuel for them (not for years, anyway). This means not only do you save fuel costs, but it also means that you never have to worry about running out of gas or electricity in the middle of the wilderness. And Rifts Earth is FULL of wilderness.

And you don't need to take on multiple tanks in order to make money with a vehicle or suit of power armor.... in fact, only a fool would even try such a scenario unless things were absolutely desperate.
Power armor takes 8000 credits for every 10 MDC of repairs, and robot vehicles take 40,000 credits per 10 MDC.
Unless you're getting paid one heck of a lot of cash, this will not be worth it for you financially, even if you do win.

My point is that a nuclear powered vehicle isn't very economical at all, the only reason you'd use one is if you need to travel long distances or require the mobility of power armour or a robot vehicle. Since they're expensive to maintain and repair a robot pilot isn't going to make as much profit as someone who is using fuel or electric powered vehicles.

Another thing to consider is that if a character is using a nuclear powered vehicle because they are travelling long distances and don't have easy access to fuel, then they probably don't have easy access to E-clip recharging either. Requiring characters to charge their E-clips in a city makes having a nuclear powered robot less of an advantage. If the characters run out of charged E-clips and have to return to a civilized area to recharge them, they might as well be using fuel or electric powered vehicles because they will probably need fuel as frequently as they need E-clip recharges.

[Killer Cyborg]

You seem to be thinking about a large scale military operation, but that's not what most people in Rifts deal with.
The advantages of Nuclear powered vehicles is that you never have to buy fuel for them (not for years, anyway). This means not only do you save fuel costs, but it also means that you never have to worry about running out of gas or electricity in the middle of the wilderness. And Rifts Earth is FULL of wilderness.

And you don't need to take on multiple tanks in order to make money with a vehicle or suit of power armor.... in fact, only a fool would even try such a scenario unless things were absolutely desperate.
Power armor takes 8000 credits for every 10 MDC of repairs, and robot vehicles take 40,000 credits per 10 MDC.
Unless you're getting paid one heck of a lot of cash, this will not be worth it for you financially, even if you do win.

My point is that a nuclear powered vehicle isn't very economical at all, the only reason you'd use one is if you need to travel long distances or require the mobility of power armour or a robot vehicle. Since they're expensive to maintain and repair a robot pilot isn't going to make as much profit as someone who is using fuel or electric powered vehicles.

I don't see MDC vehicles like robots and PA as needing much in the way of maintainance. Repair only needs to be done if the vehicle takes damage from a battle.

[Devari]

I don't see MDC vehicles like robots and PA as needing much in the way of maintainance. Repair only needs to be done if the vehicle takes damage from a battle.

The game is primarily combat based, so I assumed we're talking about characters who are likely to find themselves in combat. After all, if there aren't any threats around, they wouldn't need to worry about E-clip recharging in the first place since they wouldn't have anything to shoot at.

[Killer Cyborg]

I don't see MDC vehicles like robots and PA as needing much in the way of maintainance. Repair only needs to be done if the vehicle takes damage from a battle.

The game is primarily combat based, so I assumed we're talking about characters who are likely to find themselves in combat. After all, if there aren't any threats around, they wouldn't need to worry about E-clip recharging in the first place since they wouldn't have anything to shoot at.

The game is primarily combat based if you run it that way.
There are plenty of people who only have one or two combats per adventure (or even less).

But yes, characters are likely to get into combat.. but nuclear vehicles aren't more expensive to repair than other types of equivilant vehicles, so electric and gas would get in the same amount of trouble.

[Devari]

The game is primarily combat based if you run it that way.
There are plenty of people who only have one or two combats per adventure (or even less).

But yes, characters are likely to get into combat.. but nuclear vehicles aren't more expensive to repair than other types of equivilant vehicles, so electric and gas would get in the same amount of trouble.

Well, robots generally have very high repair costs, which I assume is due to the costs of repairing the associated robotic systems. There's no way 10 M.D.C. of armour would cost 40,000 credits just because it is mounted on a robot, the costs must reflect repairing damage to the robot's systems as well.

My point about E-clip recharging is that it makes a lot of sense considering that robots are designed to operate without refuelling for several years and recharging E-clips would ensure the pilot wouldn't run out of ammo either.

[Killer Cyborg]

My point about E-clip recharging is that it makes a lot of sense considering that robots are designed to operate without refuelling for several years and recharging E-clips would ensure the pilot wouldn't run out of ammo either.

Oh, and that's true...
But that doesn't mean that things work that way. Just because people have a good motivation doesn't mean that they have the technology to do it.

[Devari]

Oh, and that's true...
But that doesn't mean that things work that way. Just because people have a good motivation doesn't mean that they have the technology to do it.

The rules don't seem to give any indication either way. Maybe ultimate rifts will include rules for recharging E-clips from nuclear power supplies.

[Killer Cyborg]

Oh, and that's true...
But that doesn't mean that things work that way. Just because people have a good motivation doesn't mean that they have the technology to do it.

The rules don't seem to give any indication either way. Maybe ultimate rifts will include rules for recharging E-clips from nuclear power supplies.

That would be nice.

[Noon]

Keep in mind that a character will likely only carry 4 to 6 E-clips for their weapon, and if they are firing bursts they could run out of ammo very quickly. They can't exactly run back to another character's power armour or robot and get a 4 hour E-clip recharge in the middle of combat, so they still have to worry about ammo consumption in battles.

They'll own more than 6 e-clips, because every time they kill somebody who uses a laser, they get another e-clip. So they'll continually have e-clips in the recharger, waiting for them.

When the operator has to baby sit the recharge process, they can't just do that.

And ammo is generally a secondary consideration in most games, so the highlight of the gaming session shouldn't be getting your E-clip recharged.

Sorry, what?
No, it's secondary in your game. In mine its presents a challenge for the players. Something they can say they overcome at the end of the night.

But enforcing arbitrary restrictions without any rationale doesn't necessarily make for a fun game

I don't think you quite get the idea of playing for challenge.

Imagine a roleplay book with rules that make perfect sense. And someone reads it through and throws it over their shoulder. Because the perfect sense involved meant there were no obstacles for him to overcome in the game*.

I think you'll go nuts over the idea of this, so I'll pause and watch the fireworks as you probably say something like whats the point of roleplaying if your not interested in watching the game world work properly. I'm gunna say something like 'Cause I don't just want to watch', but whatever.

I'd personally recommend thinking of different challenges that the players can overcome that a fully charged E-clip won't help them deal with (such as energy resistant enemies for example).

So rather than putting a speed hump in the way of getting ammo, you'd block its use with a tank trap? Your really not used to providing challenge for the play type I'm thinking of.

* And I mean, IN the game. If your making up stuff without the assistance of the book, then you could effectively throw the book over your shoulder and it wouldn't make any difference. Say, like making up energy resistant foes, when they aren't really part of the books main focus.

[Devari]

They'll own more than 6 e-clips, because every time they kill somebody who uses a laser, they get another e-clip. So they'll continually have e-clips in the recharger, waiting for them.

When the operator has to baby sit the recharge process, they can't just do that.

But why should the operator need to do this? Deciding they can't recharge E-clips themselves because you want to keep charging E-clips challenging is still an arbirtrary restriction.

Sorry, what?
No, it's secondary in your game. In mine its presents a challenge for the players. Something they can say they overcome at the end of the night.

A squad of Dead Boys can still be a challenge because they are a threat to the characters. Just because the characters have fully charged E-clips doesn't take the challenge out of the game, it just shifts their focus to other concerns.

I don't think you quite get the idea of playing for challenge.

Imagine a roleplay book with rules that make perfect sense. And someone reads it through and throws it over their shoulder. Because the perfect sense involved meant there were no obstacles for him to overcome in the game*.

* And I mean, IN the game. If your making up stuff without the assistance of the book, then you could effectively throw the book over your shoulder and it wouldn't make any difference. Say, like making up energy resistant foes, when they aren't really part of the books main focus.

Again, I don't see why recharging E-clips is essential for providing challenge. Combat, magic, traps, ambushes and countless other tactics can be used by the GM to create challenges for the players regarless of how many E-clips they carry.

And who ever said you have to "make up" energy resistant foes? Ever heard of the spell Impervious to Energy? Or a Glitter Boy's laser resistant armour? Or Cosmo Knights?

I think you'll go nuts over the idea of this, so I'll pause and watch the fireworks as you probably say something like whats the point of roleplaying if your not interested in watching the game world work properly. I'm gunna say something like 'Cause I don't just want to watch', but whatever.

As a GM I'd rather give my players restrictions that make sense, such as requiring a nulcear power supply and making the charging take 4 to 12 hours. If finding ammo is a major highlight of your game then you can say they can't recharge E-clips for any reason at all. But one of the best things about an RPG is that the characters can try things that make sense even if there aren't any rules for what they want to do. The GM has to decide how to handle the situtation in a reasonable way rather than just saying "you can't do that because I don't want you to".

[Noon]

But why should the operator need to do this? Deciding they can't recharge E-clips themselves because you want to keep charging E-clips challenging is still an arbirtrary restriction.

You've got your focus the wrong way around for this. Okay, this is a different style of play to what your used to.

For this style of play, I don't need to justify why the operator would have to do this. I only have to justify why the player has to put up with this obstacle.

The reason he has to put up with this obstacle, is because the group wont be impressed in real life with his playing performance unless he has an obstacle to overcome. There will be no real life test of playing skill, for the player, without obstacles. If there's no test of his playing skill, the group can't appraise that skill.

So the obstacle stays regardless of how much, for your play style, you prefer to explain it away. Fact is I can think of a few ways of explaining why the obstacle remains, which make perfect sense. But the problem is, you wouldn't be interested in creating convincing arguements that support such an obstacle, you just want to find the arguement that seems most convincing. That's a nice play style and all...but if I want to test the players skill and you just agued away the obstacle, then your arguement is no good to me.

Again, I don't see why recharging E-clips is essential for providing challenge. Combat, magic, traps, ambushes and countless other tactics can be used by the GM to create challenges for the players regarless of how many E-clips they carry.

The way Rifts presented itself to me and still mostly does, is that getting ammo is some sort of difficulty in life. The price tag for recharges compels me to think this is one of the challenges to be had in this game.

And who ever said you have to "make up" energy resistant foes? Ever heard of the spell Impervious to Energy? Or a Glitter Boy's laser resistant armour? Or Cosmo Knights?

Ever heard the old advice about when the wizard gets fireball, don't send foes who are all fire resistant at him?

If atleast for the reason that the game world doesn't revolve around fire resistant foes. And Rifts earth doesn't have that spell, a GB or a CK on every corner.

I mean, I'm not really into simulationism myself, but it really annoys me when the game world seems to revolve around my PC's strengths. Ie, I have fireball and suddenly there seems to be only fire resistant creatures in the world. Or I have unlimmited e-clip charges, and suddenly the world is only full of energy resistant guys.

As a GM I'd rather give my players restrictions that make sense, such as requiring a nulcear power supply and making the charging take 4 to 12 hours.

Dude, it makes sense to me that a creature with supernatural endurance could operate a pedal generator to recharge a clip eventually. I think your nuke requirement is bogus.

If I wanted to play purely for what makes the most sense, what makes the most sense to you wouldn't be the first thing I stop at.

But I don't. I want to maintain an obstacle. Obstacle comes first, then reasons for it, eg the operator has to baby sit the recharge process (obstacle) because microcells in the e-clip often burn out as they recharge and need to be expertly replaced for recharge to continue (reason).

The way you like it is reason comes first and then obstacles come from that, eg it make sense that you could recharge from a nuke supply (reason). So that means you need to get a nuke supply first (obstacle).

I find the latter incredibly unsatisfying. Either you'll have a nuke supply straight away, or you'll get one when the GM sees fit to give one to you. Neither is an obstacle. You just said yourself "you can't do that because I don't want you to" is a bad thing. Your line of reasoning leads exactly to that point, where the players either have a supply or don't have it (because you don't want them to have it). My suggestion where a power supply plus a skilled individual is needed, throws them an obstacle. Instead of me deciding whether they can have the clips or not, they themselves are in charge, since they can engage this obstacle and beat it.

It might seem arbitrary, but it puts a hell of a lot more power in the players hands than if I just decided that full e-clips are easy to come by.

[Killer Cyborg]

You can run the game the way you want Noon, but the rifts books in no way say ammo is rare. What it does say is that few people know how to run and maintain the equipment. Like I'm a welder on a pro level. Not a skill every one has, so I can charge a lot for the skill even if it does not cost me that much to do the welds. Same thing with plumbers. Your paying for the skill and the equipment they have, not the cost of maintaining it. So if one of your players is a operator then he should be one those that can make a charger. I mean is it really fare to your player who is a 10lvl operator that he pay a level 2 operator to do a job he should be able to do. If you say it is I'm surprised you have a group.

While we're focusing on what the book says, which skill lets you recharge an E-Clip?

[Devari]

For this style of play, I don't need to justify why the operator would have to do this. I only have to justify why the player has to put up with this obstacle.

The reason he has to put up with this obstacle, is because the group wont be impressed in real life with his playing performance unless he has an obstacle to overcome. There will be no real life test of playing skill, for the player, without obstacles. If there's no test of his playing skill, the group can't appraise that skill.

So the obstacle stays regardless of how much, for your play style, you prefer to explain it away. Fact is I can think of a few ways of explaining why the obstacle remains, which make perfect sense. But the problem is, you wouldn't be interested in creating convincing arguements that support such an obstacle, you just want to find the arguement that seems most convincing. That's a nice play style and all...but if I want to test the players skill and you just agued away the obstacle, then your arguement is no good to me.

I have no idea why you think you need to focus on something like E-clip recharging. I'd find those types of obstacles very boring as a player if they were the focus of the game. A GM should give the players challenges appropriate for their abilities. If they're all vagabonds who are lucky to own a single M.D. weapon, then I suppose E-clip recharging might be an appropriate obstacle. If they're Juicers, RPA pilots, or Mindmelters I'm sure you can find a better obstacle for them then recharging their ammo clips.

The way Rifts presented itself to me and still mostly does, is that getting ammo is some sort of difficulty in life. The price tag for recharges compels me to think this is one of the challenges to be had in this game.

The price tag for most robot vehicles is around 20 to 25 million credits. But several characters start out with such a vehicle. So acquiring a nuclear powered robot vehicle isn't meant to be difficult, it's meant to be something that the characters already have at the start of the game. According to the main book, Rifts characters are assumed to have skills, abilities, and equipment that puts them far above the average person struggling to survive.

Ever heard the old advice about when the wizard gets fireball, don't send foes who are all fire resistant at him?

If atleast for the reason that the game world doesn't revolve around fire resistant foes. And Rifts earth doesn't have that spell, a GB or a CK on every corner.

The game doesn't exactly revolve around recharging E-clips either.

I mean, I'm not really into simulationism myself, but it really annoys me when the game world seems to revolve around my PC's strengths. Ie, I have fireball and suddenly there seems to be only fire resistant creatures in the world. Or I have unlimmited e-clip charges, and suddenly the world is only full of energy resistant guys.

That's not what I'm suggesting. I'm saying that a good GM will be able to challenge the players regardless of whether or not they happen to have ammunition. And since many powers and abilities are natural or regenerative (powered by P.P.E. or I.S.P.), restricting E-clips really only penalizes the characters who rely on technology. It does't do anything to stop a Cyber Knight from using his psi-sword, or a mage from casting M.D. fireballs. So I don't see what the point is in focuing on making life difficult only for the charcters who rely on technology, since it puts them at a significant disadvantage for no good reason.

Dude, it makes sense to me that a creature with supernatural endurance could operate a pedal generator to recharge a clip eventually. I think your nuke requirement is bogus.

If I wanted to play purely for what makes the most sense, what makes the most sense to you wouldn't be the first thing I stop at.

But I don't. I want to maintain an obstacle. Obstacle comes first, then reasons for it, eg the operator has to baby sit the recharge process (obstacle) because microcells in the e-clip often burn out as they recharge and need to be expertly replaced for recharge to continue (reason).

If the game doesn't make sense overall there's not much point in playing it simply to overcome fabricated "obstacles" that the GM wants to invent. As I mentioned earlier, the challenge in playing an RPG is that the players can come up with creative solutions to the challenges the GM includes in the game. This means that they should be able to use logic and common sense to think of better ways to do things, whether they're sneaking into a facility or charging an E-clip.

The way you like it is reason comes first and then obstacles come from that, eg it make sense that you could recharge from a nuke supply (reason). So that means you need to get a nuke supply first (obstacle).

I find the latter incredibly unsatisfying. Either you'll have a nuke supply straight away, or you'll get one when the GM sees fit to give one to you. Neither is an obstacle. You just said yourself "you can't do that because I don't want you to" is a bad thing. Your line of reasoning leads exactly to that point, where the players either have a supply or don't have it (because you don't want them to have it). My suggestion where a power supply plus a skilled individual is needed, throws them an obstacle. Instead of me deciding whether they can have the clips or not, they themselves are in charge, since they can engage this obstacle and beat it.

It might seem arbitrary, but it puts a hell of a lot more power in the players hands than if I just decided that full e-clips are easy to come by.

I don't get what you're saying here. You'd rather use unrealistic obstacles than realistic ones? I'm saying if you're going to include an obstacle, make it realistic so the players get some consistent idea of how the Rifts setting works. Don't just make up obstacles because KS printed high costs for E-clip recharging in the main book.

[Killer Cyborg]

You can run the game the way you want Noon, but the rifts books in no way say ammo is rare. What it does say is that few people know how to run and maintain the equipment. Like I'm a welder on a pro level. Not a skill every one has, so I can charge a lot for the skill even if it does not cost me that much to do the welds. Same thing with plumbers. Your paying for the skill and the equipment they have, not the cost of maintaining it. So if one of your players is a operator then he should be one those that can make a charger. I mean is it really fare to your player who is a 10lvl operator that he pay a level 2 operator to do a job he should be able to do. If you say it is I'm surprised you have a group.

While we're focusing on what the book says, which skill lets you recharge an E-Clip?

I would say it would take no skills. To recharge it would be no differed then recharging a battery. I don't care how advance it is it would most likely only requires you to plug it in. After all a E-clip is just a big battery. But building and maintaining a charger I would say requires basic electronics and mechanics engineer.

Or the fact that there aren't specific rules for recharging an E-Clip, combined with the fact that they cost so much to recharge, shows that it's not that easy to do.

[Killer Cyborg]

Isn't there a skill that covers recharging E-Clips?

Yes, actually.

The Field Armorer skill says:
"A competent armorer character can maintain, fix, modify, mount, reload/charge ammunition, and figure out most small arms."
And
"The armorer can... recharge E-Clips..."

The Weapons Engineer skill says:
"He can repair an assault rifle and recharge E-clips and E-Packs as well as repair and install a missile system into a vehicle."

The Elecricity Generation skill says:
"He can even install small nuclear energy systems like those used in power armor and vehicles, as well as hook up a means to 'recharge' E-Clips and E-Packs from generators."

So really, there are three skills that let you do it but that don't tell you what exactly is involved.
I think it is interesting to note that a character with the Electricity Generation skill can install a nuclear power supply (and is therefore fully familiar with their capabilities), but the only mention of recharging E-Clips/E-Packs for them is by using generators.

[Killer Cyborg]

You can run the game the way you want Noon, but the rifts books in no way say ammo is rare. What it does say is that few people know how to run and maintain the equipment. Like I'm a welder on a pro level. Not a skill every one has, so I can charge a lot for the skill even if it does not cost me that much to do the welds. Same thing with plumbers. Your paying for the skill and the equipment they have, not the cost of maintaining it. So if one of your players is a operator then he should be one those that can make a charger. I mean is it really fare to your player who is a 10lvl operator that he pay a level 2 operator to do a job he should be able to do. If you say it is I'm surprised you have a group.

While we're focusing on what the book says, which skill lets you recharge an E-Clip?

I would say it would take no skills. To recharge it would be no differed then recharging a battery. I don't care how advance it is it would most likely only requires you to plug it in. After all a E-clip is just a big battery. But building and maintaining a charger I would say requires basic electronics and mechanics engineer.

Or the fact that there aren't specific rules for recharging an E-Clip, combined with the fact that they cost so much to recharge, shows that it's not that easy to do.

Then it would not be a simple as plugging a E-clip in to your gun. The same hook up that is needed to shoot it would be the same way you rechage it, but in revers. Do you know how to make a battery? I'm sure you don't, and neither do I. I sure do know how to use one, and recharge one. Like I pionted out eralier you are paying a lot because the person has a skill and equment you don't have.

Right.
Meaning that it takes specific skills and special equipment.

[R Ditto]

I have a few more opinions and thoughts on this subject.

I always thought recharging an e-clip was about as hard as plugging a battery charger into a wall socket and putting batteries into the recharger and wait for the little "recharging" light to go off, indicating the battery was fully charged and the charger had ceased charging it any further

I also figure, that like many electronic products, an e-clip would have some small label indicating things like max voltage/watts/amps the e-clip can handle, max storage capacity and so on, so someone used to recharging long e-clips doesn't accidentally fry a short e-clip, or undercharge larger e-clip when using a recharger that has to be set/programmed for the max capacity of an e-clip.

For types of rechargers, I feel the following would be the most common types.
1: Cheap manual type, have to baby sit it and keep an eye on the power gauge and fiddle with dials and such so you don't get back to see a nice jet of sparks and flame shooting out of the top of a half slagged e-clip.
2: Moderately priced "pre-set" type, test the e-clip for its charge, and then set the charger for the right power flow/amount (based on e-clip charge and max capacity), also having a 'feedback' sensors that turns off the charger should it detect the e-clip getting over charged.
3: Expensive plug and forget type, just stick in an e-clip, hit a button, and leave. Come back later to have e-clip properly and fully, or have a display giving an accurate estimate as to how much longer it will take based on available power and detected charge and capacity of e-clip.

As for e-clip recharge costs...
In a big city or someplace where power is plentiful, I can see prices being much cheaper, perhaps as low as 500, or even 100 if it is a high tech city with more power than they might know what to do with.
When you're in the middle of a wilderness and you come across some small town where e-clips can be charged, and no other towns for a good bit of time away, you have two choices.
1: Pay the insane price to recharge the e-clip, since you will likely need as many charged e-clips as possible.
2: Not pay the insane price and hope you find someplace cheaper sooner or later and pray you don't run into something really nasty that results in a corpse in the wilderness with empty e-clips and a few thousand extra credits.

It's about supply and demand... and greed, can't forget about greed, and selfishness, and the desire to make a lot of money now rather than making even more money later.

[Noon]

So if one of your players is a operator then he should be one those that can make a charger. *snip* If you say it is I'm surprised you have a group.

Read back please. For myself I've already said the operator can make a charger, BUT he has to sit there with the e-clip(s) as they charge. That's time he can't spend doing something else. I might set it up so failed skill rolls make the charging take even longer. I've stopped arguing about making a charger...that's just not that interesting an obstacle. I prefer the time the operator has to give up in his life, as some sort of obstacle.

[Noon]

I have no idea why you think you need to focus on something like E-clip recharging. I'd find those types of obstacles very boring as a player if they were the focus of the game.

I would too. Why are you putting words into my mouth? That hasn't been suggested.

Do your games revolve around where the characters are going to sleep? No? But they still need to sleep somewhere during a game, usually. Here the player has to have the skills, a power supply and the time to monitor charging. It's going to end up the focus of the game as much as setting up camp. Unless you want to keep trying to put words in my mouth as to what I mean? Then you can imply I'm saying this is THE game focus, all you want.

Ever heard the old advice about when the wizard gets fireball, don't send foes who are all fire resistant at him?

If atleast for the reason that the game world doesn't revolve around fire resistant foes. And Rifts earth doesn't have that spell, a GB or a CK on every corner.

The game doesn't exactly revolve around recharging E-clips either.

Again, I'm not suggested something that becomes the focus of the game, like sprinkling GB's, CK's and semi rare spells into the game would.

That's not what I'm suggesting. I'm saying that a good GM will be able to challenge the players regardless of whether or not they happen to have ammunition.

So what you'd do is if they have ammo, you present one challenge type that gets around that. If they don't have ammo, you present another challenge type.

What's the point of the players collecting a resource like ammo, if their having it causes you to bring in challenges where it can't be used? What's the point of getting fireball if that changes challenges to fire resistant types?

And since many powers and abilities are natural or regenerative (powered by P.P.E. or I.S.P.), restricting E-clips really only penalizes the characters who rely on technology.

Yes.

If the game doesn't make sense overall there's not much point in playing it simply to overcome fabricated "obstacles" that the GM wants to invent. As I mentioned earlier, the challenge in playing an RPG is that the players can come up with creative solutions to the challenges the GM includes in the game. This means that they should be able to use logic and common sense to think of better ways to do things, whether they're sneaking into a facility or charging an E-clip.

No. You want to come up with creative solutions once. Now that you've come up with it, you don't have to worry about it again.

For my suggestion, the operator has to keep fitting in the recharge time into his adventuring time somehow, because he can't just set them to recharge and walk off.

By your prefered reasoning, the recharging is now a non issue. While in my game it's another challenge to manage in every game. This makes sure it remains part of the long term challenge of the game. Your method undermines that challenge (which is fine if you want to play in a different style).

I don't get what you're saying here. You'd rather use unrealistic obstacles than realistic ones? I'm saying if you're going to include an obstacle, make it realistic so the players get some consistent idea of how the Rifts setting works. Don't just make up obstacles because KS printed high costs for E-clip recharging in the main book.

Make it realistic? By who's standards?

Look at it this way...your incredibly biased on the matter. Getting free recharges is great...having to pay for them with large chunks of PC time is not so great. Or do you think your incredibly unbiased, and when you refute any reason why the operator would have to stay with and monitor the clip, it's purely for realism reasons?

Really, it's like you've got five bucks on the table, and the rules are that if I can convince you of something, you loose that five bucks. But I can't really force you to to believe something...you can just refute it forever. Are you sure your actually open to hearing the game world reasons for this obstacle, or are you just clutching onto what you have at stake?


Frankly this is how it's going
Me: "Okay, here are some tyres, a wall and a swing rope. Now see how quickly you can get to the other side!"
You: "Okay" You precede to run around the side of the obstacles, bypassing them.
Me: "WAIT! You can't do that!"
You: "Why? It's realistic? I'll just walk around the side! That's what clever players do!"
Me: "Well, perhaps imagine there's fire on each side!?"
You: "Oh, there wouldn't be fire, that'd be unrealistic! You can't just put unrealistic stuff because you want to!" You then run to the end.

Another player then runs through the course. I give him a cheer when he gets to the end.
You: "Hey, how come you didn't cheer me when I got to the end??"
Me: *Sigh*

[Devari]

You still aren't getting my point Noon. As a GM I'm looking for realistic challenges for the players. If something needs to be done a certain way, there should be a good reason for it. Requiring an Operator to monitor E-clip recharging doesn't make any sense to me at all. The Operator would have to build or purchase the charger and connect it to a nuclear power supply (which would require their mechanical skills), but they shouldn't have to watch it charge all day long. Most Rifts technology is easy to maintain and I don't see why something as simple as an E-clip should be any different.

[Killer Cyborg]

Right.
Meaning that it takes specific skills and special equipment.

Yes to build one. You don't need to know how to build a item to use it. Do most charters know how to build a gun no, but they sure can use them.

Then why are there certain skills that specifically mention that the skill allows you to recharge E-Clips...?

[Thinyser]

I agree with chalenges but the cost of recharging an e-clip is rediclous.

Our group modified our vehicle to recharge up to 4 e-clips per hour but for each slot that was being used the speed of the vehicle was reduced by 25% of the orrigional speed so if all 4 slots were filled and charging the vehicle didn't move...sure we could recharge 96 e-clips in 24 hours working in shifts to make use of all 24 hours but then we were not going anywhere...usually we ended up having 2 on the charger and running at 50% speed as we usually couldnt go faster than that anyhow due to terrain limitation.

Also after about a dozen charges the e-clips would start to degrade and the GM would roll percentiles to see how much of a charge it would hold then estimat the number of shots you would get....of course you wouldnt know that the damn thing wasnt "full" untill after the "X"th shot it wont work.
Once the characters figured out the problem we started keeping track of the number of charges and usually selling them around the 10th charge so that the other dude would get a couple of good charges then start to notice that they were loosing shots....after we had moved on

[Noon]

You still aren't getting my point Noon. As a GM I'm looking for realistic challenges for the players. If something needs to be done a certain way, there should be a good reason for it. Requiring an Operator to monitor E-clip recharging doesn't make any sense to me at all.

Okay, so currently you see e-clips as recharging this way.

But could you imagine it another way? Say I wrote an RPG and it had energy clips as well, and I specifically write in it that the mechanic has to monitor them through the charge (with a home made charger). It gives some fluff as to why.

Would you accept that as part of the game world of my RPG?

Would you accept it, or assume that you know better about the game world than myself, and know better than me how an energy clip of that world works than myself, the author of the hypothetical RPG? For the following I'll assume you would accept how I write it. Because if your not going to accept the authors depiction, your not about to accept anyones (and in that case, why should anyone listen to you when you wouldn't listen to anyone else?).

Now, assuming you'd have accepted it before, say I'm not writing a whole new world. Say I'm rewriting part of an existing world. Say I'm rewriting how e-clips work on Rifts earth. Now, with that hypothetical game before, I'm assuming that if you sat down to play, you'd take my word (as the author) as to how it works. If you sat down to play Rifts with me as GM, how are you going to treat my rewrite of e-clips. Are you going to treat it any differently?

Not that you couldn't argue all you like with me before play happens. That's fine. But if you actually sit down to play (rather than do something else), are you going to accept it? Like you'd accept how e-clips worked in the hypothetical RPG?

Or would you argue about the realism of it? Not ask about, but argue? Because if you would, it just shows your not interested in anyones elses perception but your own. You'd accept the hypothetical book I wrote, but you would argue what I write for the Rifts game world? THAT is why your urge for realism is pointless. Because it's not the quest for realism, it's just being interested soley in your own perception. Otherwise you could take on the idea as if the other person had written a whole game world with that in it. I don't see you doing that here at all.

Personally I can easily accept the game world/e-clips working the way you see it, just like you'd written a whole book on it. But it just doesn't meet my challenge needs, which would make me less likely to sit down and play (with that in the game). At the same time, I can see the game world working in the way I suggest as well. But every time I suggested that, stating its to serve my challenge needs, you keep saying the equivalent of "I'm not interested in how anyone else would write a game world, or how they'd write part of a game world". When you demand it to be realistic, your really just deciding to ignore something.

I'm pretty certain you've have accepted various game worlds and how things work in them like magic and such before. Which makes it pretty clear when you do decide to ignore someones write up of the game world, it's just ignoring them. There is no noble pursuit of realism involved here, your just closing off your mind. That's fine to do if you don't want to play with them, but in terms of forum discussion its pointless.

That's why it's pretty much pointless for me to try and give a 'realistic' reason to you.

[Jesterzzn]

You still aren't getting my point Noon. As a GM I'm looking for realistic challenges for the players. If something needs to be done a certain way, there should be a good reason for it. Requiring an Operator to monitor E-clip recharging doesn't make any sense to me at all.

Okay, so currently you see e-clips as recharging this way.

*SNIP*

That's why it's pretty much pointless for me to try and give a 'realistic' reason to you.

I thought you were supposed to give the opposing side a chance to respond on their own. You just argued 3 or 4 points and answered FOR the other person THEN refuted the point that you said that the other guy would have said. Jeeez, no wonder debating is so hard for me, I didn't know you could answer for the other person. Thanks.

[Devari]

Personally I can easily accept the game world/e-clips working the way you see it, just like you'd written a whole book on it. But it just doesn't meet my challenge needs, which would make me less likely to sit down and play (with that in the game). At the same time, I can see the game world working in the way I suggest as well. But every time I suggested that, stating its to serve my challenge needs, you keep saying the equivalent of "I'm not interested in how anyone else would write a game world, or how they'd write part of a game world". When you demand it to be realistic, your really just deciding to ignore something.

Making up arbitrary challenges up that don't have any basis in the setting doesn't add anything to the game. If you can offer a reasonable justification of why an Operator should have to spend time contstantly monitoring an E-clip, then great. If you're just saying "well, I thought this would be a challenge" then you're missing the point. I can decide my characters have to spend an hour starting up a robot vehicle for a "challenge", but it wouldn't fit the Rifts setting at all and wouldn't add anything to the game.

I'm pretty certain you've have accepted various game worlds and how things work in them like magic and such before. Which makes it pretty clear when you do decide to ignore someones write up of the game world, it's just ignoring them. There is no noble pursuit of realism involved here, your just closing off your mind. That's fine to do if you don't want to play with them, but in terms of forum discussion its pointless.

That's why it's pretty much pointless for me to try and give a 'realistic' reason to you.

You haven't even tried to provide any reason other than "it's a challenge for the players". If you have a good reason why an E-clip is such a complicated piece of technology that it should require an Operator's constant attention, then please tell me what it is. Otherwise, you haven't provided anything to accept or reject, you've just stated something without any basis or explanation.

[teulisch]

I dont think this is a question about e-clips. its a question of limited resources.

How limited your resources are will set the feel of the game. On the one hand we have a few guys in light armor that wont survive a firefight, and a few small arms with limmited ammuntion, and enough foor for a week. On the other hand we have a mechanized unit, fully supplied with easy access to resupply. While the first group focuses on Survival, the second dosent have to worry about survival as much, and can focus on more interesting things like Saving the World (or just making a lot of cash).

Both are equaly valid types of games. But the Survival game very much requires everyone to be on the same level, and would be very imbalanced with just one well off player. Survival-focus makes reuseable resources (Magic, psionics, TW) more important than technology (which is expensive), and can be viewed as basicly screwing over the high-tech guys and borgs.

Ofhand, i would say the rechargeing eclips skill is more about being able to hook directly into a random power supply, and not electrocute yourself or explode the clip. the high cost is for those without acess to a power supply.

removing acess to eclips increases importance of magic/psi (and posibly the full conversion borg, who has his own nuclear power supply). increasing acess to eclips lets the mages conserve energy for more important things that technology cant do (carpet of adhesion, ect).

[Noon]

Also after about a dozen charges the e-clips would start to degrade and the GM would roll percentiles to see how much of a charge it would hold then estimat the number of shots you would get....of course you wouldnt know that the damn thing wasnt "full" untill after the "X"th shot it wont work.

How did you keep track of the number of shots? If the GM was doing it secretly, wasn't that a lot of work for him? Or did he have some trick to doing it?

[Noon]

You haven't even tried to provide any reason other than "it's a challenge for the players". If you have a good reason why an E-clip is such a complicated piece of technology that it should require an Operator's constant attention, then please tell me what it is. Otherwise, you haven't provided anything to accept or reject, you've just stated something without any basis or explanation.

Thats right. I'm not presenting 'it's a challenge' as a reason for this to happen in the game world. I'm presenting 'it's a challenge' as to why I'd play in such a game world. Very different.

I'm getting the feeling causality is king here. Ie, you'd say giant robots are in Rifts, not because KS wanted them there, but because it had to happen given the technology previously stated to exist. I'm getting the feeling it's very alien to you to think "Hey, I want an RPG with giant robots in it...oh, so I'd better put some high tech society in there to support that idea". And in much in the same way "Hey, I want getting ammo to be an time issue...oh, so I'd better write down that it has complicated minaturisation circuitry that requires maintainance as its recharged" is.

Have you ever wanted something in a game (like say a mysterious castle), then invented reasons why it would be there (like some aliens from a rift built it)? Or do you normally work the other way around (like stone mason aliens come from a Rifts...so what comes next is that they are likely to build something here).

If that's your preference, I can probably cook up some hugely causality based reason for you.

Jesterzzn: Did you catch the word 'assuming' or did you assume yourself, that I was answering for the other person?

[Jesterzzn]

Jesterzzn: Did you catch the word 'assuming' or did you assume yourself, that I was answering for the other person?

I assumed that you were ranting, and in so doing you lost sight of the overall argument you were trying to make. I had to read your post three times to understand what you were trying to say, and my post was making fun. When you set up such ridiculously complex hypothetical situations, you cease to argue with anyone but yourself, especially when you assume what other persons responses are going to be. Your hypothetical situation had around 4 layers of complex assumption, it was ludicrous, and so I poked fun.

[Devari]

Thats right. I'm not presenting 'it's a challenge' as a reason for this to happen in the game world. I'm presenting 'it's a challenge' as to why I'd play in such a game world. Very different.

You're totally not understaning the purpose of this thread. I'm asking people about using a nuclear power supply to recharge E-clips because the main book has no rules for this. My original question was whether other books provide any rules, but aside from some limited references there don't seem to be any official rules. Several people have posted ideas about what they think should be required to recharge E-clips and if they think it should be a common feature or if it should require extra work. This has nothing to do with wanting to play in a challenging game or not, it has to do with determining what should be required for a character to recharge an E-clip.

[Thinyser]

Also after about a dozen charges the e-clips would start to degrade and the GM would roll percentiles to see how much of a charge it would hold then estimat the number of shots you would get....of course you wouldnt know that the damn thing wasnt "full" untill after the "X"th shot it wont work.

How did you keep track of the number of shots? If the GM was doing it secretly, wasn't that a lot of work for him? Or did he have some trick to doing it?

Yep GM did it in secret for a while but the characters cought on pretty quick and then as I said started selling the things before the started to go bad. For the short time he actually had to keep track he used note cards one for each character and had the eclips in our possesion listed on them when we slapped a new one in our gun he would mark it on the sheet and then he kept track of our ammo and would say when the weapon failed to fire.... then we would grab a new clip.

like i said we cought on fast (in character) after only two or three battles and some testing while not in combat...as our weapons were our livleyhood and when your life depends on your equipment so heavily you do what you can to cover your ass.

[Thinyser]

This has nothing to do with wanting to play in a challenging game or not, it has to do with determining what should be required for a character to recharge an E-clip.

Which is exactly about challenge.

Do you want it to be easy for the characters to charge them or hard...
expensive or cheap...
time consuming or quick....

It IS all about the challenge... how you define the challenge is up to you.
As far as canon rules none that I know of but like others have said any operator with half a brain should be able to rig up something (in my opinion as i think the credit cost is too high)

[Killer Cyborg]

Right.
Meaning that it takes specific skills and special equipment.

Yes to build one. You don't need to know how to build a item to use it. Do most charters know how to build a gun no, but they sure can use them.

Then why are there certain skills that specifically mention that the skill allows you to recharge E-Clips...?

I've never seen these skills.

Then you missed it when I posted them earlier.
Look in the following skills in the GMG
-Field Armorer
-Weapons Engineer
-Electricity Generation

In fact why would there be more then one?

Because there's more than one way to skin a cat.

Did the skill say you have to have this skill to recharge E-clips. Unless there is a skill that is called recharge E-clip or state you need this skill to do it, it just can't be that hard. The same way energy goes out the E-clip would be the way it comes in. Like others have said it all depends on the equipment how hard it will be.

The fact that these skills state specifically that they allow people to recharge E-clips shows that not just anybody can do it.

[Devari]

Which is exactly about challenge.

Do you want it to be easy for the characters to charge them or hard...
expensive or cheap...
time consuming or quick....

It IS all about the challenge... how you define the challenge is up to you.
As far as canon rules none that I know of but like others have said any operator with half a brain should be able to rig up something (in my opinion as i think the credit cost is too high)

I agree that ultimately any rules question is relevant to the challenge the game provides, but my question is based on trying to determine how things should work in the Rifts setting. Many of the Rifts rules don't really have any balance to them to begin with (the O.C.C. classes from the main book have very different power levels for example), so the GM has to ensure that the group has appropriate challenges which can vary widely depending on the characters invovled. Since challenges and game balance are entirely up to the GM I'm not worried at all about how E-clip recharging affects the game, I just want to ensure that it is done in a reasonable and consistent manner.

[Noon]

Thats right. I'm not presenting 'it's a challenge' as a reason for this to happen in the game world. I'm presenting 'it's a challenge' as to why I'd play in such a game world. Very different.

You're totally not understaning the purpose of this thread. I'm asking people about using a nuclear power supply to recharge E-clips because the main book has no rules for this.

I originally gave a suggestion, mostly talking to some other people when I wrote it, and you wrote a post disagreeing.

My original question was whether other books provide any rules, but aside from some limited references there don't seem to be any official rules. Several people have posted ideas about what they think should be required to recharge E-clips and if they think it should be a common feature or if it should require extra work. This has nothing to do with wanting to play in a challenging game or not, it has to do with determining what should be required for a character to recharge an E-clip.

Well, you said yourself that "I have no idea why you think you need to focus on something like E-clip recharging. I'd find those types of obstacles very boring as a player if they were the focus of the game."

If you were interested in determining exactly what is required for a character to recharge, and that turned out to be boring and made itself the focus of the game, you'd be okay with that? I doubt it.

Wanting to avoid boredom by having a challenging game is just as valid a reason as your own desire to avoid boredom.

[Noon]

I assumed that you were ranting, and in so doing you...

Woops, I lost track of your line of arguement there...it went on for a bit and I couldn't keep up. Sorry about that, must be annoying for you!

[Devari]

I originally gave a suggestion, mostly talking to some other people when I wrote it, and you wrote a post disagreeing.

Well, you said yourself that "I have no idea why you think you need to focus on something like E-clip recharging. I'd find those types of obstacles very boring as a player if they were the focus of the game."

You (and others) have mentioned that high recharge costs may be because an Operator needs to monitor E-clip charging, but no one provided any plausble reason why an Operator should need to do this. You insisted that an Operator should have to monitor E-clips continously only because of the "challenge" it provides, as if a random obstacle somehow justifies itself even if it has no rational basis. This type of circular argument makes no sense to me because it has nothing to do with E-clips, it's just making the characters do something without a valid reason. There is nothing in the books suggesting that E-clip charging is so difficult that it requires constant attention. It is simply an expensive process, most likely due to the high cost of nuclear power supplies.

If you were interested in determining exactly what is required for a character to recharge, and that turned out to be boring and made itself the focus of the game, you'd be okay with that? I doubt it.

If there was a good reason why characters couldn't recharge their E-clips and it fit the Rifts setting, I'd incorporate it into my game.

Wanting to avoid boredom by having a challenging game is just as valid a reason as your own desire to avoid boredom.

I'm not even sure what you're trying to say here. Having a character monintor E-clip recharging constantly somehow avoids boredom in your games?

[Noon]

If you were interested in determining exactly what is required for a character to recharge, and that turned out to be boring and made itself the focus of the game, you'd be okay with that? I doubt it.

If there was a good reason why characters couldn't recharge their E-clips and it fit the Rifts setting, I'd incorporate it into my game.

You've avoided the question. I didn't ask if you'd accept a good reason, I asked if you'd accept a good reason that lead to boring play?

Or do you always add something to the game with an eye for exactly how it would work (no matter how boring), rather than ever changing things slightly so they are more exciting than that?

[Devari]

If there was a good reason why characters couldn't recharge their E-clips and it fit the Rifts setting, I'd incorporate it into my game.

You've avoided the question. I didn't ask if you'd accept a good reason, I asked if you'd accept a good reason that lead to boring play?

Or do you always add something to the game with an eye for exactly how it would work (no matter how boring), rather than ever changing things slightly so they are more exciting than that?

I said that I'd incorporate an appropriate method for recharging E-clips as long as it fits the setting. How was that not clear? Obviously if the appropriate method happens to be boring or time-conusming then that's just a consequence of how that technology works. I wouldn't have any problem with it because it would be part of the setting. I wouldn't arbitrarily add a boring or time-conusming aspect to the game without a good reason though.

[Jesterzzn]

I assumed that you were ranting, and in so doing you...

Woops, I lost track of your line of arguement there...it went on for a bit and I couldn't keep up. Sorry about that, must be annoying for you!

No problem, but at least you can admit it.

[Toc Rat]

I have no idea if this has been mentioned already, I skipped ahead after reading thru page 3. I believe this will help shed some light on the subject using cannon means.

On page 101 of the Rifts Mercenaries book it says under the description of the NG-EX10 Exo-skeleton:
It uses a rechargeable battery. The battery can be recharged by any vehicle or facility with a nuclear power plant or other generator

It further goes on to say
The Gladius cannot use weapons that draw power from the suit(it would drain the battery in minutes)

It makes no mention of any special equipment needed to recharge the suit. Therfore there must be some kind of universal power socket inside most vehicles made in North America. I say North America but like today, I expect that the european models use a different style electrical socket. Since the armor is of NG manufacture and thus North American, I expect it to be able to plug in to most any nuclear vehicle made in the Americas.

The suit itself must have a cord that plugs in to the socket but that is not the point here. The point is that Northern Gun made and marketed this suit to be able to recharge itself with most nuclear or other generators Since your average mercenary is not going to be a Electrical engineer it must mean it is a "plug n play" feature.

Thus, based on this suit and its cannon capabilities, it would almost have to make use of existing power outlets common to most nuclear vehicles and generators.

Now just in case the importance of that has somehow not been understood, I will explain further.

That means that a simple plug in device, made to work with the pre-existing power outlets found on most nuclear power supplies/generators, would be able to re-charge E-clips quickly and easyily.

This should not be un-expected. Think of you car, it has cigarette lighter(s). Many items are made to plug right in and make use of that, not just the lighter. Power invertors are available at nearly any parts store. They plug in to the light socket and then you can plug in your laptop, TV, DVD player, etc.

In the US Army our vehicles are equiped with standard power couplings. A variety of things can be pluged in to them. This only makes sense as why would we want to have to grab a special adaptor just to jump start a tank, APC, Humvee? They are also convienent for other uses.

I hope I have am not repeating an example someone else has already posted. I also hope this helps with the recharging an E-clip question.