Vagabonds and Hand-to-hand

[Kalinda]

There was a HUGE thread on this a couple of months back, lost of arguing back and forth. I'll look for it and post a link.

(edit) here you go.

viewtopic.php?t=26644&highlight=vagabond+hand

[Sentinel]

Each OCC in the Scholars and Adventurers section lists what Hand-to-hand they start with, if any, and what the costs of upgrading are. However, the Vagabond has no listing in regards to Hand-to-hand skills at all. Does this mean I cannot even upgrade to HTH:Basic?

If I can, what are the costs?

I had thought that you were forced to use a skill(OCC Related) in order to get Basic, two skills for Expert, and three for Martial Arts or Assasin, if Evil.

[Kalinda]

I would be happy coughing up a skill for HTH:Basic. I just did not want to assume anything. I have never played a Vagabond, and I have not played Rifts in almost 10 years. I found a local group and have had to get my Palladium books out of storage...

Good luck on the hunt, Kalinda. I used Search and got lost.

I found it pretty easily actually. just a matter of using the right search words.
viewtopic.php?t=26644&highlight=vagabond+hand

[Kalinda]

No problem.

Mind you, I'm not sure anything was resolved by that thread, but there were some good, reasonable ideas about how to handle the issue stuck inbetween the arguing.

That's the way a lot of threads end up actually...

[Sentinel]

There was a HUGE thread on this a couple of months back, lost of arguing back and forth. I'll look for it and post a link.

(edit) here you go.

viewtopic.php?t=26644&highlight=vagabond+hand

Who would have thought it would be so hard to give a Vagabond a HtH skill? Does that make the character so unbalanced? If the Vagabond traded up to three skills for HtH Martial arts, and still can't take wrestiling, gymnastics or acrobatics, then how unbalanced is he?
Good Lord people, I enjoy a good debate, but think about the point of what you're debating.

[Kalinda]

There was a HUGE thread on this a couple of months back, lost of arguing back and forth. I'll look for it and post a link.

(edit) here you go.

viewtopic.php?t=26644&highlight=vagabond+hand

Who would have thought it would be so hard to give a Vagabond a HtH skill? Does that make the character so unbalanced? If the Vagabond traded up to three skills for HtH Martial arts, and still can't take wrestiling, gymnastics or acrobatics, then how unbalanced is he?
Good Lord people, I enjoy a good debate, but think about the point of what you're debating.

I agree. I don't think I posted to that thread at all. too much effort for too little gain.

Just let him take basic for one skill slot, expert for two and martial arts for three and get on with it...

In retrospect, I probably should have just said that rather then posting the link.

[Sentinel]

There was a HUGE thread on this a couple of months back, lost of arguing back and forth. I'll look for it and post a link.

(edit) here you go.

viewtopic.php?t=26644&highlight=vagabond+hand

Who would have thought it would be so hard to give a Vagabond a HtH skill? Does that make the character so unbalanced? If the Vagabond traded up to three skills for HtH Martial arts, and still can't take wrestiling, gymnastics or acrobatics, then how unbalanced is he?
Good Lord people, I enjoy a good debate, but think about the point of what you're debating.

I agree. I don't think I posted to that thread at all. too much effort for too little gain.

Just let him take basic for one skill slot, expert for two and martial arts for three and get on with it...

In retrospect, I probably should have just said that rather then posting the link.

I'm glad you chose to post the link. It was...enlightening. It amazes me the level to which this point, so minor in it's consequence, could be debated on.
I'll really have to read all six pages of the thread.

[Sentinel]

6 pages? There were 19! =)

I'm seeing them now. I had only shown six the first time I looked.
That just makes the point even more strongly.
Good Lord, it's just a Vagabond.


It's really hard to read more than a page or two at a time.

[Killer Cyborg]

I certainly remember that thread...
Let me know if anybody has any questions about it.

[Sentinel]

I certainly remember that thread...
Let me know if anybody has any questions about it.

What was the ultimate resolution? Is it actually an official ruling?

[Killer Cyborg]

I certainly remember that thread...
Let me know if anybody has any questions about it.

What was the ultimate resolution? Is it actually an official ruling?

I don't remember that...
I think I won (they use the same rules as other scholar/adventurer types that start with no HTH skill, but that can buy one), but I don't think it was an official ruling of any sort... (unless we took this to the FAQ section and an answer was accepted... but I don't think that's what happened)

[Kalinda]

Who wants to lay odds that this thread will go to 10+ pages, despite the fact that person who asked the question has gone away happy already?

[Sentinel]

I just can't understand why anyone would argue so vehemently against the Vagabond getting any sort of HtH at all.
(As an aside: Killer Cyborg, I applaud you for your stance on the "Too Many Redundant OCCs" stance. I share your opinion).
I guess I never realized how powerfull the Vagabond could be in combat.
Of course, KC used one to nuke a Mulka, so maybe they are bada$$es.

[Nekira Sudacne]

all hand to Hands are Phisical skills.

vagabonds can have any phisical skill other than acrobatics, gymnastics, and wrestling.

therefor they can.

[Sentinel]

In N&SS, I seem to recall that HtH: Basic was available as a secondary skill.

[Colonel Wolfe]

I've Let Vagabonds get any HtH skill they want for one Skill... onky because the player spent 20 minutes trying to convinve me the allow his Vaagbond to start with Hand to hand Commando... after that I penciled in rule about HTH costs... 1 for basic, 2 for Expert, 3 for MA/As.

I've scene OCC's that make Boxing count as 2 selections, and Paramedic cost 2 as well...but those are few and far between.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I've Let Vagabonds get any HtH skill they want for one Skill... onky because the player spent 20 minutes trying to convinve me the allow his Vaagbond to start with Hand to hand Commando... after that I penciled in rule about HTH costs... 1 for basic, 2 for Expert, 3 for MA/As.

I've scene OCC's that make Boxing count as 2 selections, and Paramedic cost 2 as well...but those are few and far between.

tell me, he DID say how he got it. . .right?

[RoadWarriorFWaNK]

i rolled up a vagabond and for Hand to hand skills i took HtH Ninjutsu and HtH Shaolin Kung Fu and HTH Commando. I mean, since they're just physical skills like any other, I can do that.
And I gave him super-powers too to sufficiently munch him up. I am ready for Role-Playing Game!!

[Colonel Wolfe]

I've Let Vagabonds get any HtH skill they want for one Skill... onky because the player spent 20 minutes trying to convinve me the allow his Vaagbond to start with Hand to hand Commando... after that I penciled in rule about HTH costs... 1 for basic, 2 for Expert, 3 for MA/As.

I've scene OCC's that make Boxing count as 2 selections, and Paramedic cost 2 as well...but those are few and far between.

tell me, he DID say how he got it. . .right?

yeah, all in that 20 minutes he spent trying to convince me he could do it.... it kinda made sense since half the occ's found in new west got it... it was a convuluded story about trying to become a Gun Slinger, but washing out... and then trying to join the CS, but not testing high enough to be a Grunt.. the Fact it was a high powered game helped his situation... and i Turned down his wanting to add HU super powers...

[RoadWarriorFWaNK]

i rolled up a vagabond and for Hand to hand skills i took HtH Ninjutsu and HtH Shaolin Kung Fu and HTH Commando. I mean, since they're just physical skills like any other, I can do that.
And I gave him super-powers too to sufficiently munch him up. I am ready for Role-Playing Game!!

yeah but too bad for you the first thing you fight is a psi leech and the first thing you did was fire your Syncro cannon at it...

I have paired Weapons: Synchro cannons. Since Paired weapons can do that too.

YES! OPEN THE FLOODGATES!!

[Nekira Sudacne]

i rolled up a vagabond and for Hand to hand skills i took HtH Ninjutsu and HtH Shaolin Kung Fu and HTH Commando. I mean, since they're just physical skills like any other, I can do that.
And I gave him super-powers too to sufficiently munch him up. I am ready for Role-Playing Game!!

except that all of hte above strictly state they're limited to certain OCC's.

HtH basic, expert, Martial arts, and assassin do not.

[MADMANMIKE]

..Man, the depths of insanity in that thread.

..My first post on the topic addressed the issue of it never being fixed:

..Hand to Hand is established in the Megaverse as costing 1, 2, 3, and sometimes 4 skill selections. You want to know why it isn't listed in the Vagabond OCC? Because Palladium was still laying out their books with the old cut-and-paste method. Select a font size and print everything then cut and paste it where you want on the page.

..Something like the specifics of how to select hand to hand is so obvious that it could aford to be cut so the OCC would fit on a single page. It doesn't even qualify as a typo, it's just an assumption that nobody would be goofy enough to think the class can't get the skills becuase it doesn't specify that they can.

..Later I went on to further my point:

..To toss another futile log on the fire, I'll point out that every other Palladium game with a 'normal' person class (namely Palladium Fantasy's Vagabond and Beyond The Supernatural's Normal Person) let's the character have a hand to hand skill...

..And still later....

I figured out why they left out the HTH skill costs for Vagabonds.
Look at the page with the Vagabond description.
See any room on it where you could squeeze any more words in?
Nope.

It was more than likely cut because they didn't want to run over onto the next page and they had already printed the rules for buying HTH skills a half dozen times already.

..Vyrkolosovichkisi quoted me quoting myself saying that 12 posts above, and I actually posted it about 12 posts into the thread. Kev put only a few pics of his own into the book and the one he did for the Vagabond took up most of the page. It was a great pic, but at the time they were still doing cut and paste (like with scissors and actual paste), and as such resizing the pic to make room was not a possibility.

-Mike >8]

[Nekira Sudacne]

Granted that tech in 1990 was insufficient. What about now? 15 years and no official statement? Does Palladium not release errata (without it getting lost in yet another book)?

yes it releases errita. in fact, we're still waiting several years later for the space spells promised.

[Nekira Sudacne]

...and there are no official spokepersons that post on these boards either?

nope.

[MADMANMIKE]

Granted that tech in 1990 was insufficient. What about now? 15 years and no official statement? Does Palladium not release errata (without it getting lost in yet another book)?

yes it releases errita. in fact, we're still waiting several years later for the space spells promised.

..Where were they promised? There were some in Aliens Unlimited and AUGG...

-Mike >8]

[Kalinda]

Thank you for your help Kalinda. As this thread requires reference for a person on these boards, it would be a shame if it became inactive, so someone should post on it. If you don't I will... again

Are you referring to the original thread about vagabonds and HTH? I agree that the info should be preserved. I was kind of thinking of doing something similar to what KC did with the teleport thread. start a thread in the Q&A forum and quote the relevant posts from this and the larger thread so it all gets saved.

Want to help?

[MADMANMIKE]

Sure, but why not just bump it?

..Oh, come on Tyciol, 90% of it was you running off at the keyboard, why don't you?

-Mike >8]

[Kalinda]

Sure, but why not just bump it?

So we can preserve the relevant info and not make new players slog through nineteen pages of people arguing about the topic. not that it wasn't interesting to read at the time, but that kind of thing can put a new player off the game for life.

Nineteen year old kid after reading half the thread: 'screw this, I'm gonna go play GTA.'

[Killer Cyborg]

You guys were moving too slow, so I started a FAQ section question on it.

Somebody please post a very thorough answer that condenses the other thread, and we'll all sleep easier at night.