Rise of the Munchkins or A More Sensible System?

[grandmaster z0b]

So between the threads about making Tanks, Robots and Power Armour more powerful, and the threads about making magic more powerful, are we seeing popular support for a beefed up system or simply the rise of the true munchkin within?

I'm obviously being a little extreme here, I think most people would at least look at the change if it were logical, balanced and well play tested.

I believe we need an overall adjustment rather than just boosting either tech or magic.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I think magic and tech is balanced in general.

the people who want higher tanks are the kind who don't like cinematic "i'm the hero who does impossible things" and wants "the tank rolls over and kills any non-tank like structure even if the character can't do it"

the people who want more powerful magic are the kind that want their mage to walk around in Rifts in robes but still be more powerful than most armed and armored squads.

it's not muchkin, it's the game not living up to their pre-concived notions of how things should be.

[Sentinel]

I'm voting for 'overhaul', but not so much for more power, but just to clean up inconsistent language in the books, fix mistakes, and get things back on the track of magic and tecnology being on equal footing.
I truly prefer cinematic excitement, balanced with some realism (or, prehaps a better word would be "plausability"). I like martial artists who can do Bruce Lee/Jet Li things in combat, dodge like in the Matrix, etc. Comic book style heroes who face seemingly insurmountable odds and triumph, etc.
But the rules need to be cleaned up, statistics need to be re-examined, and things will get a lot less muddy with less meta-plot driving the game. SoT as a story may have been okay, but as a game module series, all it did was muddy up the water more than ever. First, there's the Coalition War Campaign, but now with more tech-based improvements, we gotta beef up the mages, so here's Federation of Magic. Now, they're gonna fight, so here's SoT, and the outcome is...largely disappointing, judging from the posts here.

[Scooter the Outlaw]

I think magic and tech is balanced in general.

the people who want higher tanks are the kind who don't like cinematic "i'm the hero who does impossible things" and wants "the tank rolls over and kills any non-tank like structure even if the character can't do it"

the people who want more powerful magic are the kind that want their mage to walk around in Rifts in robes but still be more powerful than most armed and armored squads.

it's not muchkin, it's the game not living up to their pre-concived notions of how things should be.

Agreed with pretty much in full. I just don't like the term 'munchkin'. What's the deragority slang for RPG purist prude?

Anyway, on topic, what kind of 'overall adjustment' are we looking at here? I believe most people agree that the books need to be overhauled into a sensical, professional and accurate compilation of the rules, etc. But gameplay wise, what kind of changes are needed? Personally, my major gripe with the system at this point is level advancement, but I doubt PB will change that anytime soon.

I'd just like to know what people want changed, how they want it changed, and if they think what they want is honestly what the majority wants. Because I already know most people don't care or want the changes I do.

[Borast]

Without heading in the direction of a certain WWII board game based on squad level battles...

The weapons/armours especially need a massive overhaul.

The magic system could probably use some tweaking too, but not as much.

After all, the way the rules stand right now, you can sink a battleship with a .22 rifle!

[Dr. Doom III]

All together now!

We're off to see the wizard

[Killer Cyborg]

So between the threads about making Tanks, Robots and Power Armour more powerful, and the threads about making magic more powerful, are we seeing popular support for a beefed up system or simply the rise of the true munchkin within?

Making tanks powerful enough to kill ground troops isn't munchkin.
Wanting individual soldiers to be powerful enough to kill tanks is munchkin.

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

Again, those who don't see a problem with the vehicles, railguns, power armor and robot's damage and mdc values... Well, I just don't know what to say.

I'll just sum it up "Why use the guns on the vehicle, when I can lean my head out the window and use my pistol, which does just as much damage".

It's absurd.

Magic is relatively fine, unless they fixed the above.

Why isn't it munchkin when you're playing a modern game and you throw in a Helicopter that has a 30mm Cannon on it that's doing 3d6 MDC with a 20 round burst, somehow that's munchin? Or when the player face down a main Battle Tank and get hit with the 120mm main cannon for 2d6 MDC, it's munchkin?

Oh, the PC's can't take that on with their Mp5s, so I need to reduce the damage for that 30mm to 5d6 and oh, that cannon could kill their corvette in one shot, I better nerf it down to 2d4x10.

That's fair right? No, it's semi realistic that hey, when your PC gets hit with an weapon that's designed to break open a tank: you die.

Hence the reason why (and Kev has written this a billion times) you use common sense when you game. If a grenade blows up in your lap, chances are: you're dead.

As for this thread, I find it hilarious that most people here (the forums in general) cry "Power creep" but also complain about things being under powered. Like the thread a while back about Dragons being underpowered.

[grandmaster z0b]

It is interesting that although the results of this poll are even, the Poll on the "Of Tanks, Vehicles, Railguns and... Rifles?" thread is 32 to 6 in favour of increasing the power of vehicle weapons.

[Jesterzzn]

It is interesting that although the results of this poll are even, the Poll on the "Of Tanks, Vehicles, Railguns and... Rifles?" thread is 32 to 6 in favour of increasing the power of vehicle weapons.

The whole system is in desperate need of a rebalance. GMs should not have to balance the damage, that should be done by playtesting before the books are released. I think its becoming increasingly obvious to me that little or no playtesting takes place at palladium these days.

[grandmaster z0b]

Thought I'd just point out that the Poll on the "House Rules: Pumping Spells" thread indicated 13 to 4 thought that it would be a good idea. Essentially endorsing the idea that there need to be some rules to allow mages, dragons, demons etc. to pump up the damage or effect of spells a the cost of more PPE. The specifics are still being worked out but it does show that many people are at least unhappy with the current situation.

[Jesterzzn]

Thought I'd just point out that the Poll on the "House Rules: Pumping Spells" thread indicated 13 to 4 thought that it would be a good idea. Essentially endorsing the idea that there need to be some rules to allow mages, dragons, demons etc. to pump up the damage or effect of spells a the cost of more PPE. The specifics are still being worked out but it does show that many people are at least unhappy with the current situation.

And the reason for that is magic damage has stayed more or less unchanged, while tech and small arms are increasingly more powerfull.

[Sureshot]

It is interesting that although the results of this poll are even, the Poll on the "Of Tanks, Vehicles, Railguns and... Rifles?" thread is 32 to 6 in favour of increasing the power of vehicle weapons.

The whole system is in desperate need of a rebalance. GMs should not have to balance the damage, that should be done by playtesting before the books are released. I think its becoming increasingly obvious to me that little or no playtesting takes place at palladium these days.

Totally agree. It seems like that to me also. Finally I have enough to do as a GM and prefer NOT DOING ANY HOUSE RULING. Or at the very least to a minimum. Any potential balance problems should be filtered out by the games creator first. The GM second.

[Jesterzzn]

It is interesting that although the results of this poll are even, the Poll on the "Of Tanks, Vehicles, Railguns and... Rifles?" thread is 32 to 6 in favour of increasing the power of vehicle weapons.

The whole system is in desperate need of a rebalance. GMs should not have to balance the damage, that should be done by playtesting before the books are released. I think its becoming increasingly obvious to me that little or no playtesting takes place at palladium these days.

Totally agree. It seems like that to me also. Finally I have enough to do as a GM and prefer NOT DOING ANY HOUSE RULING. Or at the very least to a minimum. Any potential balance problems should be filtered out by the games creator first. The GM second.

I love it when a player digs up some weapon from one of the recent books and thusts it into the action.


PC Okay, I am going to fire my pistol at him. Oh yea, and make it a burst.

GM Okay, you hit him, now what's the damage on that pistol?

PC 4d6 MD

GM Shut up, what's the real damage?

PC Dude, I'm serious, look for yourself.

GM

PC Soooo thats what? *rolls* Hmmm...seventeen times three...

GM Fine...

[Shin Kenshiro]

I think magic and tech is balanced in general.

the people who want higher tanks are the kind who don't like cinematic "i'm the hero who does impossible things" and wants "the tank rolls over and kills any non-tank like structure even if the character can't do it"

the people who want more powerful magic are the kind that want their mage to walk around in Rifts in robes but still be more powerful than most armed and armored squads.

it's not muchkin, it's the game not living up to their pre-concived notions of how things should be.

Here's the way things go. Tech and Magic ARE balanced. Their application is incredibly UNBALANCED.

A low level soldier in MDC body armor with his standard equipment vs a low level mage is actually a somewhat balanced fight.

HOWEVER, while the initial human sized tech & magic is balanced, the growth of both is seriously screwed. The idea that a tank, an incredibly heavy war weapon can get the everloving snot beaten out of it by standard small arms fire is completely rediculous. This isn't power creep to make a tank a feared weapon. Look at it this way...

SUPER SAMAS POWER ARMOR
Height - 10 ft
Weight - 2.4 tons
Main Body MDC - 425
Cost - 5 million credits

LINE BACKER HEAVY ASSAULT TANK
Height - 14 ft
Length - 20 ft
Weight - 40 tons
Main Body MDC - 790
Cost - 32 Million Credits

So, the tank weighs almost a full 20x more than the Super SAMAS, yet doesn't even get twice the armor protection? Both weights listed are unloaded btw, and people are incapable of seeing a problem here? Since when did a tank become a simple battering ram? Really that's all it's good for.

A single Super SAMAS can dual fire it's plasma cannons for 2d6x10 at a target...the Line Backer is not allowed to dual fire its main guns at a target. Each gun must fire seperately.

Now here is the ultimate example of those who want stronger tanks & tank guns NOT being munchkin. Look at a little toy in the main book...I'll let you guess what it is.

Height - 10 ft 5in
Weight - 1.2 tons!!!
Main Body MDC - 770
Cost - 25 million for brand new w/gun

Seeking balance has become tantamount to munchkinism since people want Joe Average to engage in hand to hand combat with a tank & win. THAT is munchkin...not a 40 ton tank blowing away an armored humanoid in 1 shot.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I think magic and tech is balanced in general.

the people who want higher tanks are the kind who don't like cinematic "i'm the hero who does impossible things" and wants "the tank rolls over and kills any non-tank like structure even if the character can't do it"

the people who want more powerful magic are the kind that want their mage to walk around in Rifts in robes but still be more powerful than most armed and armored squads.

it's not muchkin, it's the game not living up to their pre-concived notions of how things should be.

Here's the way things go. Tech and Magic ARE balanced. Their application is incredibly UNBALANCED.

A low level soldier in MDC body armor with his standard equipment vs a low level mage is actually a somewhat balanced fight.

HOWEVER, while the initial human sized tech & magic is balanced, the growth of both is seriously screwed. The idea that a tank, an incredibly heavy war weapon can get the everloving snot beaten out of it by standard small arms fire is completely rediculous. This isn't power creep to make a tank a feared weapon. Look at it this way...

SUPER SAMAS POWER ARMOR
Height - 10 ft
Weight - 2.4 tons
Main Body MDC - 425
Cost - 5 million credits

LINE BACKER HEAVY ASSAULT TANK
Height - 14 ft
Length - 20 ft
Weight - 40 tons
Main Body MDC - 790
Cost - 32 Million Credits

So, the tank weighs almost a full 20x more than the Super SAMAS, yet doesn't even get twice the armor protection? Both weights listed are unloaded btw, and people are incapable of seeing a problem here? Since when did a tank become a simple battering ram? Really that's all it's good for.

A single Super SAMAS can dual fire it's plasma cannons for 2d6x10 at a target...the Line Backer is not allowed to dual fire its main guns at a target. Each gun must fire seperately.

Now here is the ultimate example of those who want stronger tanks & tank guns NOT being munchkin. Look at a little toy in the main book...I'll let you guess what it is.

Height - 10 ft 5in
Weight - 1.2 tons!!!
Main Body MDC - 770
Cost - 25 million for brand new w/gun

Seeking balance has become tantamount to munchkinism since people want Joe Average to engage in hand to hand combat with a tank & win. THAT is munchkin...not a 40 ton tank blowing away an armored humanoid in 1 shot.

as I said, you're the kind who dosn't like "I'm the hero who saves the town from the Tank or Dragon single handed" and prefers "I ran and took as many civiians with me as I cound and ran from the tank as it rolled over destroying everything in it's path"

right?

[grandmaster z0b]

Not necessarily Nekira, just because you want a tank to do realistic damage dosen't mean you play boring un-heroic games. Maybe the GM provides a Giant Robot or some anti - tank weapons to protect the town. Or maybe you have to spend half the adventure planning an ambush with anti-vehicle mines, and making traps and obstacles.

Not to say your way is wrong, but I feel that if the danger is greater then the heroism is greater.

[Shin Kenshiro]

as I said, you're the kind who dosn't like "I'm the hero who saves the town from the Tank or Dragon single handed" and prefers "I ran and took as many civiians with me as I cound and ran from the tank as it rolled over destroying everything in it's path"

right?

No, I'm the kind of guy who says "Wow, a Glitterboy sure is powerful....wait, why's a tank so friggin' expensive yet so useless in comparison".

Why should a single Glitterboy (We're not even going to bother talking about its laser resistant armor) be so super-powered, yet a tank that is larger, has a crew, and costs 15 million more credits be so pointless in comparison? A Glitterboy outranges, outdamages, and outlasts a massive tank that literally weighs nearly 40x more. I'm asking for a glimmer of common sense. Even CJ "OMG IT'S T3H P0W3R CR33P!!!11!" Carella's tanks had nothing on a Glitterboy. This isn't a "Shin doesn't like heroics" scenario, this is a "Dude, how the hell does this make sense?" scenario.

[Nekira Sudacne]

as I said, you're the kind who dosn't like "I'm the hero who saves the town from the Tank or Dragon single handed" and prefers "I ran and took as many civiians with me as I cound and ran from the tank as it rolled over destroying everything in it's path"

right?

No, I'm the kind of guy who says "Wow, a Glitterboy sure is powerful....wait, why's a tank so friggin' expensive yet so useless in comparison".

Why should a single Glitterboy (We're not even going to bother talking about its laser resistant armor) be so super-powered, yet a tank that is larger, has a crew, and costs 15 million more credits be so pointless in comparison? A Glitterboy outranges, outdamages, and outlasts a massive tank that literally weighs nearly 40x more. I'm asking for a glimmer of common sense. Even CJ "OMG IT'S T3H P0W3R CR33P!!!11!" Carella's tanks had nothing on a Glitterboy. This isn't a "Shin doesn't like heroics" scenario, this is a "Dude, how the hell does this make sense?" scenario.

because the material that goes into the glitter boy is super-advanced beyond what goes into teh tank.


it's what todays tanks are compared to a box made out of Iron.

it makes sense

[Jesterzzn]

as I said, you're the kind who dosn't like "I'm the hero who saves the town from the Tank or Dragon single handed" and prefers "I ran and took as many civiians with me as I cound and ran from the tank as it rolled over destroying everything in it's path"

right?

No, I'm the kind of guy who says "Wow, a Glitterboy sure is powerful....wait, why's a tank so friggin' expensive yet so useless in comparison".

Why should a single Glitterboy (We're not even going to bother talking about its laser resistant armor) be so super-powered, yet a tank that is larger, has a crew, and costs 15 million more credits be so pointless in comparison? A Glitterboy outranges, outdamages, and outlasts a massive tank that literally weighs nearly 40x more. I'm asking for a glimmer of common sense. Even CJ "OMG IT'S T3H P0W3R CR33P!!!11!" Carella's tanks had nothing on a Glitterboy. This isn't a "Shin doesn't like heroics" scenario, this is a "Dude, how the hell does this make sense?" scenario.

because the material that goes into the glitter boy is super-advanced beyond what goes into teh tank.


it's what todays tanks are compared to a box made out of Iron.

it makes sense

He is not talking about today's version of tanks. And no it does not make sense. To say that a tank with a gun barrel 10X larger than the boom gun, is 1/2 the power, with the same tech backing it up, is asinine.

Why even have tanks as part of the military if they are less effective than something 1/40 the size and 1/10 the price?

[Shin Kenshiro]

because the material that goes into the glitter boy is super-advanced beyond what goes into teh tank.


it's what todays tanks are compared to a box made out of Iron.

it makes sense

That still doesn't change the fact that it doesn't get even double the armor of a SAMAS that weighs nearly 20x less, nor does it make any sense that they would outfit a main battle tank with lasers that have half the range of a boom gun and 1/3 the damage of said boom gun. Even the missiles it has are only 1 mile range 5d6 mini-missiles. Your main gun does the damage of an infantry man's rifle...with slightly better range. Wow...oh the massive power.

[Killer Cyborg]

Personally, I like heroic action.
This means that sometimes my characters die heroically trying to stop the unstoppable, sometimes they pull it off against the odds due to luck or outsmarting the opponent... but at least a victory means something.
You can't claim that fighting a tank is Heroic if the tank doesn't present much of a challenge.

[Nekira Sudacne]

a tank is a challange for most anything but a few things.

for Thor, a CS SPC Mark III is nothing, he can literally destroy it with one swing of his mighty hammar.

for a guy in Huntsman Body Armor with a Wilks L20 pulse rifle, that same tank's a challange.

[Jesterzzn]

a tank is a challange for most anything but a few things.

for Thor, a CS SPC Mark III is nothing, he can literally destroy it with one swing of his mighty hammar.

for a guy in Huntsman Body Armor with a Wilks L20 pulse rifle, that same tank's a challange.

Okay, but what about to an Elite Samas pilot?

The point is the SAMAS would most likley whip it, yet to the CS the SAMAS costs 1/10th the price. So why even build the tank?

[Killer Cyborg]

a tank is a challange for most anything but a few things.

for Thor, a CS SPC Mark III is nothing, he can literally destroy it with one swing of his mighty hammar.

for a guy in Huntsman Body Armor with a Wilks L20 pulse rifle, that same tank's a challange.

What about that guy with the JA-11/C-12/C-10/NG-P7 or other fully automatic weapon?
How many tanks are a challenge to him?

[Nekira Sudacne]

a tank is a challange for most anything but a few things.

for Thor, a CS SPC Mark III is nothing, he can literally destroy it with one swing of his mighty hammar.

for a guy in Huntsman Body Armor with a Wilks L20 pulse rifle, that same tank's a challange.

What about that guy with the JA-11/C-12/C-10/NG-P7 or other fully automatic weapon?
How many tanks are a challenge to him?

1-2. depends on who gets initiave.

many people seem to forget, almost all tank weapons have Rate of Fire: standard. meaning until the recent few books they could go full-auto too. (I recommend ignoring the new rules)

[Shin Kenshiro]

a tank is a challange for most anything but a few things.

for Thor, a CS SPC Mark III is nothing, he can literally destroy it with one swing of his mighty hammar.

for a guy in Huntsman Body Armor with a Wilks L20 pulse rifle, that same tank's a challange.

What about that guy with the JA-11/C-12/C-10/NG-P7 or other fully automatic weapon?
How many tanks are a challenge to him?

1-2. depends on who gets initiave.

many people seem to forget, almost all tank weapons have Rate of Fire: standard. meaning until the recent few books they could go full-auto too. (I recommend ignoring the new rules)

Actually, the tanks that are in the books have Rate of Fire - 1 shot per action for their main guns.

[Killer Cyborg]

a tank is a challange for most anything but a few things.

for Thor, a CS SPC Mark III is nothing, he can literally destroy it with one swing of his mighty hammar.

for a guy in Huntsman Body Armor with a Wilks L20 pulse rifle, that same tank's a challange.

What about that guy with the JA-11/C-12/C-10/NG-P7 or other fully automatic weapon?
How many tanks are a challenge to him?

1-2. depends on who gets initiave.

many people seem to forget, almost all tank weapons have Rate of Fire: standard. meaning until the recent few books they could go full-auto too. (I recommend ignoring the new rules)

Actually, the tanks that are in the books have Rate of Fire - 1 shot per action for their main guns.

Yeah.
As far as I know, I've never seen any built-in weapon systems for tanks or robots that have any ROF other than "equal to the number of melee attacks."

Edit:
And in any case, just the fact that the battle would be decided by whomever gets initiative shows how bad the problem is.
A single soldier with a standard rifle shouldn't be able to kill a tank in <15 seconds just because he's quick on the draw.
A fight with a tank shouldn't be a Wild West showdown.

[Borast]

because the material that goes into the glitter boy is super-advanced beyond what goes into teh tank.


it's what todays tanks are compared to a box made out of Iron.

it makes sense

That still doesn't change the fact that it doesn't get even double the armor of a SAMAS that weighs nearly 20x less, nor does it make any sense that they would outfit a main battle tank with lasers that have half the range of a boom gun and 1/3 the damage of said boom gun. Even the missiles it has are only 1 mile range 5d6 mini-missiles. Your main gun does the damage of an infantry man's rifle...with slightly better range. Wow...oh the massive power.

True, but MDC is described as more than simply damage capacity, but the additional effect of the damage has on the item in question...it's fragility, if you will...not that I like the description myself.

However, I do agree that a 20 tonne tank should have more than what it has for armour. At a bare minumum, it should have 10x the MDC, and that tank weapons should have more range and hit as hard as a boom gun (with the GB having the advantage that a tank's crew would have difficulties striking the GB with the cannon).

[Shin Kenshiro]

Aegis...you have absolutely missed the entire complaint going on here. We're not advocating the conept of an invincible tank or "realism" here. We're asking why a **** ing tank that weighs 40 tons has less than 2x the amount of armor that a 2 ton SAMAS does, or why a Glitterboy is allowed to have 770 armor and only weigh ONE ton, as opposed to said 40 ton tank that has 790. I'm not asking the game to make sense of magical things...but I'm trying to get people to understand that it's not a god damned munchkin thought to have a tank's main gun do more than 1d6x10.

Even if we were to accept that a Glitterboy's armor isn't just laser resistant, but also so incredibly strong that it is the equivalent of tank, why the hell would anyone outfit a tank with a gun that is huge, yet just as powerful, if not less, than a standard infantryman's rifle?

So far, the people against this concept of a tank that isn't just a 40 ton paperweight's best arguement is "magic isn't real, so why should anything else make sense?"

[Sentinel]

Aegis...you have absolutely missed the entire complaint going on here. We're not advocating the conept of an invincible tank or "realism" here. We're asking why a **** ing tank that weighs 40 tons has less than 2x the amount of armor that a 2 ton SAMAS does, or why a Glitterboy is allowed to have 770 armor and only weigh ONE ton, as opposed to said 40 ton tank that has 790. I'm not asking the game to make sense of magical things...but I'm trying to get people to understand that it's not a god damned munchkin thought to have a tank's main gun do more than 1d6x10.

Even if we were to accept that a Glitterboy's armor isn't just laser resistant, but also so incredibly strong that it is the equivalent of tank, why the hell would anyone outfit a tank with a gun that is huge, yet just as powerful, if not less, than a standard infantryman's rifle?

So far, the people against this concept of a tank that isn't just a 40 ton paperweight's best arguement is "magic isn't real, so why should anything else make sense?"

I agree with you. I am just against the idea that a tank is so real that the 'unreal' things shouldn't be able to face it.
I want the guns to be balanced and scaled sensibly: I just also want it to be expected that all the super-characters (Juicers, Crazies, super-heroes, Mind Melters, Cyber-Knights, etc.) to have to go screaming because their special abilities can't deal with the ultra-realistic tanks.

[Killer Cyborg]

I am just against the idea that a tank is so real that the 'unreal' things shouldn't be able to face it.
I want the guns to be balanced and scaled sensibly: I just also want it to be expected that all the super-characters (Juicers, Crazies, super-heroes, Mind Melters, Cyber-Knights, etc.) to have to go screaming because their special abilities can't deal with the ultra-realistic tanks.

Other than an Invulnerable super hero, every one of those character types should be wary about taking on a tank (or giant Bot). It's not that they should run screaming (hiding might work better, for one thing), its that they shouldn't yawn, take a few shots/punches/cuts at the thing and move on.
An encounter with a tank should be a major menace, not a minor one.

[Shin Kenshiro]

I agree with you. I am just against the idea that a tank is so real that the 'unreal' things shouldn't be able to face it.
I want the guns to be balanced and scaled sensibly: I just also want it to be expected that all the super-characters (Juicers, Crazies, super-heroes, Mind Melters, Cyber-Knights, etc.) to have to go screaming because their special abilities can't deal with the ultra-realistic tanks.

See...I'm amused at this because nowhere in ANY of the descriptions for these "super-characters" does it ever say they were created for the purpose of destroying vehicles. Short of the new Anti-Tech Cyber-Knights...which is an interesting joke in and of itself...Juicers and Crazies were never designed to be unstoppable juggernauts on the battlefield. They were created to make the ultimate infantryman...not the end all be all of the combat world. A single Juicer should NEVER stand a chance against a tank. What the hell is the point of a tank that can be beaten by a drug addict??

People have these strange ideas in their heads that their characters should be able to face down ANYTHING in the game by themselves. The concept of tactics or being sneaky (Read up too...Kevin himself talks about this in the GMG) are dismissed and instead people throw their characters at giant robots expecting to rape them viciously.

Ask yourself a simple question...which makes sense?

A 40 ton tank that can kill an infantryman in one shot....OR....an Infantryman who can kill a 40 ton tank with a couple clips?

Again, I'm not talking refurbished tanks from Golden Age Weaponsmiths, I'm talking Triax and CS equipment here.

[Colonel Wolfe]

As Early as Robotech the Human Scale v. Giant robot/tank Scale was set, all human sized Armor will have 5-10x the MDc per pound of a Larger Vehical.

I broke it down to a Cyclone v. a Gladiator (this accounts for the entire weight, as its impossible to figure out how much just the armor on a vehical weighs).
the Cyclone ened up with over 2.5 MDC per pound.
the RDF-Gladiator .03 MDC per pound.
the REf Gladiator .058 MDC per pound.

The Jump between the RDF version to the REF version is simpley progression of technology... The Cyclone, which is primarly a "survival" device, has 80x more Durable armor then a Mecha Developed along the Same time...
Maybe the Armor of the cyclone is more expensive, thats why it was rarely used for other mecha? for somethign as common as the Cyclone (in the first episode Rand finds a bunker with over 10 cyclone in it and every Alpha/beta has on in it) it seams unlikely.

to me its mostly an Issue of wanting human scale opponets to be able to match with Tanks/Robots easily.
The Glitter boy is indead bad news for an opponet... but if you have the tech to build somethign as complex as a GB, you could build simmilerly fearsom tanks...
but from waht i read in the Riffts books, the GB was designed to be a Single man Tank, and had a support structure simmiler to a normal Tank division, and mostly old style Tank tech was going the way of the dinosaur... so i never minded tanks being Infeior to PA/Robots.
How did the Naruni hover tank stack up as far as Armor goes?

[Jefffar]

Basically it's a question of scale and balance.

I think that currently Rifts has major problems with both and a significant change to either the game system, or the statistics of many things is required to fix these problems.

[maasenstodt]

it makes sense

Not to me.

If all we're going for is cinematic, character as brazen, unbeatable hero stuff, why bother with stats so much? Why make a distinction between 50 and 60 MDC, or 120 lbs. and 140 lbs., or 4d6 damage and 5d6 damage? Why fill books with so many lines of meaningless tripe? Why not just make the system akin to Tri-Stat or somesuch?

The fact is that there is a disconnect in the Palladium ruleset. As things stand, it's trying to do too much and succeeding at little. If Kevin wants a cinematic game, he shouldn't bother with the gritty details. If he wants a gritty game, he shouldn't stat things so out of wack from reality. If he wants the option to do either, do like Shadowrun, Jovian Chronicles, and numerous other games have done and give rules that provide for both.

But for God's sake, don't toss everything including the kitchen sink into a book, check it for consistency only on a whim and only against some of your previous work, and then not even bother with playtesting to see what people who would actually use your product think.

Well, not if you're looking to sell books to me, at any rate...

[maasenstodt]

No, leave it as it is, it's fine. Whiner. Changes will only change things.

That response is so self-evidently ridiculous, it makes me want to cry.

[Sentinel]

I agree with you. I am just against the idea that a tank is so real that the 'unreal' things shouldn't be able to face it.
I want the guns to be balanced and scaled sensibly: I just also want it to be expected that all the super-characters (Juicers, Crazies, super-heroes, Mind Melters, Cyber-Knights, etc.) to have to go screaming because their special abilities can't deal with the ultra-realistic tanks.

See...I'm amused at this because nowhere in ANY of the descriptions for these "super-characters" does it ever say they were created for the purpose of destroying vehicles. Short of the new Anti-Tech Cyber-Knights...which is an interesting joke in and of itself...Juicers and Crazies were never designed to be unstoppable juggernauts on the battlefield. They were created to make the ultimate infantryman...not the end all be all of the combat world. A single Juicer should NEVER stand a chance against a tank. What the hell is the point of a tank that can be beaten by a drug addict??

People have these strange ideas in their heads that their characters should be able to face down ANYTHING in the game by themselves. The concept of tactics or being sneaky (Read up too...Kevin himself talks about this in the GMG) are dismissed and instead people throw their characters at giant robots expecting to rape them viciously.

Ask yourself a simple question...which makes sense?

A 40 ton tank that can kill an infantryman in one shot....OR....an Infantryman who can kill a 40 ton tank with a couple clips?

Again, I'm not talking refurbished tanks from Golden Age Weaponsmiths, I'm talking Triax and CS equipment here.

Thanks to his special abilities, my Juicer can dodge the main cannon of a tank, leap onto it, and attach a fusion block, or two. Commander going to pop out of the hatch to shoot me off? I hope so, so I can lob a grenade down the hatch after I punk him out with my etraordinary strength and reflexes. With that same strength, I can handle rail guns that most characters can't all the while enjoying my automatic dodge, and my hyped up spped so I can cover more ground quicker. I might be rushing off to an early grave, but the trade-off is, my juicer is the modern day SUPER-soldier. Not just a Green Beret or Navy SEAL, but a soldier with true comic book level super-enhanced physical abilities. Heck, juicer squad of four is even cheaper than a SAMAS, at least according to Juicer Uprisings. The down side is their inherent instability, short life-span, and difficulty in being controlled. But yeah, I can take your tank.

[Shin Kenshiro]

Thanks to his special abilities, my Juicer can dodge the main cannon of a tank, leap onto it, and attach a fusion block, or two. Commander going to pop out of the hatch to shoot me off? I hope so, so I can lob a grenade down the hatch after I punk him out with my etraordinary strength and reflexes. With that same strength, I can handle rail guns that most characters can't all the while enjoying my automatic dodge, and my hyped up spped so I can cover more ground quicker. I might be rushing off to an early grave, but the trade-off is, my juicer is the modern day SUPER-soldier. Not just a Green Beret or Navy SEAL, but a soldier with true comic book level super-enhanced physical abilities. Heck, juicer squad of four is even cheaper than a SAMAS, at least according to Juicer Uprisings. The down side is their inherent instability, short life-span, and difficulty in being controlled. But yeah, I can take your tank.

See, this is a good example though. You're not attacking said tank with your rifle, you're going the high explosives route. Now, hyper reflexes are a good thing, and yes if you're lucky (Even juicers need luck) then I can see your juicer getting onto the tank for some demolition fun.

But no tank commander in his right mind would open the hatch if a super soldier was on top of it. If he couldn't nail you with the tank weaponry, why would he endanger himself out there trying to hit you with a handgun? Any tanker who does that deserves to lose his life AND tank. Just remember that the current batch of tanks in Rifts also have 2-3 gunners...you're not just avoiding the main gun...you're dealing with 4 other weapons blazing at you. Hope they don't get a Natural 20 anytime in there.....

[kamikazzijoe]

I second the motion.

Bill Passed.

Aye

[Killer Cyborg]

Just to point out that it's all in how you run things (not even house rules, just house interpretations), I'll show you how things would go down in my game...

Thanks to his special abilities, my Juicer can dodge the main cannon of a tank,

Possibly, but more likely he'd be hit by a simultaneous attack.

leap onto it, and attach a fusion block,

Hope you have the Demolitions skill.
Oh, and Gymnastics/acrobatics depending on how big the tank is...

or two. Commander going to pop out of the hatch to shoot me off?

No. He'll likely radio for backup.

I hope so, so I can lob a grenade down the hatch after I punk him out with my etraordinary strength and reflexes.

Never that simple.
Say he did open the hatch and climb out... again, if you try to attack him, he'll simo attack. Probably doing Full Auto.

With that same strength, I can handle rail guns that most characters can't all the while enjoying my automatic dodge, and my hyped up spped so I can cover more ground quicker. I might be rushing off to an early grave, but the trade-off is, my juicer is the modern day SUPER-soldier.

Yup.

Not just a Green Beret or Navy SEAL, but a soldier with true comic book level super-enhanced physical abilities. Heck, juicer squad of four is even cheaper than a SAMAS, at least according to Juicer Uprisings. The down side is their inherent instability, short life-span, and difficulty in being controlled. But yeah, I can take your tank.

No, you can't.
Juicers are tougher than a normal soldier, but not so tough that they can't be taken down by a tank, power armor, or even a skilled and well-equipped normal soldier or two under the right conditions.

[Twitch212]

MHO on the suject is that tanks are fine, you are all claiming that a tank would lose in a one on one battle with a single infantry man as its opponent, i don't see how since in the 20 or so shots it would take to disable the tank they should be able to spot him and blow him up.

But if you want more realisim you should want weaker tanks, some tanks in rifts can take 1-2 long range missles, in real life do you think a tank could take an icbm. I doubt it. IRL a single trooper can take out a tank with one missle, yet that is immpossible in rifts

Again tanks are not ment to be used one on one in a position where the tank is by itself. They are ment to be used in huge armies with dozens of tanks blasting away on an open field supported by infantry and/or aircraft. I mean each tank on average has 15-20 attacks from the combined attacks of its crew, and the line backer was a poor example since the weopen systems on it suck IMHO, they whould have kept the grinning skull from mercs. The iron hammer i think it is called has a main gun that does 3d6*10, and numerous supporting railguns that do 2d4*10 It would shred a glitter boy.

also tanks are slow if a samas manages to get behind it they should ripe it to shreds, if it can avoid the 360 railgun that some of them have.

If you want more realism in mdc you would be better to give alot more locations like "front of top turrent" and such since while they do have alot more armour, they also have alot more surface area to shoot at. instead of just jacking up the mdc, and why do they always have to hit the main body to begin with.

[Colonel Wolfe]

why do they always have to hit the main body to begin with.

Because Kev Sim feels random hit locations are "Flukey"

[grandmaster z0b]

why do they always have to hit the main body to begin with.

Because Kev Sim feels random hit locations are "Flunky"

Isn't it "Flukey"?

[Colonel Wolfe]

why do they always have to hit the main body to begin with.

Because Kev Sim feels random hit locations are "Flukey"

Isn't it "Flukey"?

yeah... it is....

[Sentinel]

Just to point out that it's all in how you run things (not even house rules, just house interpretations), I'll show you how things would go down in my game...

Thanks to his special abilities, my Juicer can dodge the main cannon of a tank,

Possibly, but more likely he'd be hit by a simultaneous attack.

I'm not attacking, yet, I'm using auto-dodge, because I know I'm being shot at. I'll attack whan I'm too close for the main gun.

leap onto it, and attach a fusion block,

Hope you have the Demolitions skill.
Oh, and Gymnastics/acrobatics depending on how big the tank is...

[color=blue]I'm a Juicer: I most likely have Gymnastics, but even if not, my PP is at least 22.I would have Demolitions, or I wouldn't even waste your time with this argument.[/color]

or two. Commander going to pop out of the hatch to shoot me off?

No. He'll likely radio for backup.

Hopefully, when they shoot at me, they'll miss and strike their own ally.

I hope so, so I can lob a grenade down the hatch after I punk him out with my etraordinary strength and reflexes.

Never that simple.
Say he did open the hatch and climb out... again, if you try to attack him, he'll simo attack. Probably doing Full Auto.

I should at least be wearing a light MD armour that will still allow me to get a hold of him. And, I'm not going to waste time in simo attacks: I have auto-dodge, and I'm going to take advantage of it. Speed demon or not, I do not want to spend one nano-second more on the hull of this tank than I have to.

With that same strength, I can handle rail guns that most characters can't all the while enjoying my automatic dodge, and my hyped up speed so I can cover more ground quicker. I might be rushing off to an early grave, but the trade-off is, my juicer is the modern day SUPER-soldier.

Yup.

Not just a Green Beret or Navy SEAL, but a soldier with true comic book level super-enhanced physical abilities. Heck, juicer squad of four is even cheaper than a SAMAS, at least according to Juicer Uprisings. The down side is their inherent instability, short life-span, and difficulty in being controlled. But yeah, I can take your tank.

No, you can't.
Juicers are tougher than a normal soldier, but not so tough that they can't be taken down by a tank, power armor, or even a skilled and well-equipped normal soldier or two under the right conditions.

I don't disagree with you on the point that I can be killed by a tank. I just feel that, in this game of truly superhuman characters, I can take tanks one-on-one as well.
I've used Juicers in HtH combat against up to three armoured Coalition soldiers (all well armed), one-to-one a SAMAS vs. a Phaeton Juicer, and a Hyperion Juicer vs. a GBK, and won all those. All of them long and protracted battles, and everyone taking buttloads of damage, but it can be done.

[Killer Cyborg]

I don't disagree with you on the point that I can be killed by a tank. I just feel that, in this game of truly superhuman characters, I can take tanks one-on-one as well.
I've used Juicers in HtH combat against up to three armoured Coalition soldiers (all well armed), one-to-one a SAMAS vs. a Phaeton Juicer, and a Hyperion Juicer vs. a GBK, and won all those. All of them long and protracted battles, and everyone taking buttloads of damage, but it can be done.

S'allright.