Forensics

[PigLickJF]

These are all interesting questions, but I don't think there's any definitive answers to them.

As far as EE powers and energy weapons, I'd think it would be very difficult to discern a difference between them unless there were some sort of sensors nearby that caught signatures. You could potentially discern different power levels, sizes, and shapes of the beams, but I don't think you could necessarily do something like pinpointing them to a specific person/weapon, especially if the weapon is common/mass-produced. If it's a special, unique pistol made by a Hardware-type character, then they could potentially rule out other weapons, but it really depends on type and condition of the evidence.

As far as rail guns, that could go either way, depending on the design of the gun. Given that you recover the actual projectile, though, I'd say it's much more likely than in the case of energy weapons. If gun's design has the projectile in contact with parts of the gun when fired, it would certainly leave specific marks, which could potentially be used for identification of the weapon.

As for bio-armor...I would say it does have DNA. It's called "bio" armor, after all. Now, how easy it would be to extract the DNA from it might be a different matter altogether...It's also likely that, even if the armor itself doesn't contain DNA, it could still yield DNA evidence by being in contact with other tissues and bodily fluids which do contain DNA.

PigLick

[PigLickJF]

Hmm, I don't suppose a mod would move this to the Rifts section for me?

Well, personally, I think it fits better here. Other than the few highly technologically advanced and highly organized bodies out there, I don't see the Rifts world as a place where there's a lot of in-depth forensic investigation.

PigLick

[Borast]

For the energy effects of the EE powers, no...

To the best of my knowledge, whether an electric current is carried across a gold conductor, a copper conductor, or a steel conductor, there is no difference in the "traces" it leaves in the environment. (If someone with some actual real-world knowledge wants to shoot me down over this, please feel free...I have more knowledge than "Joe Public", but not enough for a fully informed opinion...)

The e-weapons. laser versus laser...maybe.
If the lasers of two different manufacturers have identical specifications, probably not, since the damage done by the laser is through vapourisation and heat transference. However, since thee is actual burn-through, and laser maker "A" makes all his lasers with a 1cm bore, and laser maker "B" makes all his lasers with a 75mm bore, then yes. Also, there is difference in beam energy based on the output of the laser... By measuring the damage done (assuming all environmental conditions were known), you could also differentiate between types...with the right equipment ($$$!!!)

Different types of e-weapons, definitely! The damage done would be drastically different depending on the weapon used.

As for the Bio-Armour...no.
It seems to be a form of super keratin, and like finger nails and hair, there is no DNA, since it is not "live." However, if the battle actually blew-away all of the bio-armour, the CS Investigator would probably find fragments with skin cells attached. The only thing they'd be able to do is tell whether or not they have a similar sample on file.

[PigLickJF]

As for the Bio-Armour...no.
It seems to be a form of super keratin, and like finger nails and hair, there is no DNA, since it is not "live."

Both hair and fingernails do contain appreciable amounts of DNA. I couldn't find any evidence of whther chitin does or not, but I agree that bio-armor is more likely to be something similar to keratin than chitin anyway(unless it's the bio-armor of some sort of insectoid race).

PigLick

[Daniel Stoker]

Expanding on my original question, what about certain APS powers? I wouldn't expect fire to have a DNA signature, but would scrapings from an APS: Metal or splinters from an APS: Wood mutant leave DNA? Or any of the other APS powers?

On the APS: Fire topic, though, would varying mutants with the APS: Fire power have different thermal signatures that could be used to idenitify them?

Anything inorgance by it's very nature wouldn't have DNA to it since there aren't any cells making it up. It's one of the reasons why you can't test for DNA on a fossil unless there is some bone/organic matter left in it still.




Daniel Stoker

[Daniel Stoker]

There is a marked difference in human and plant cell structure in the first place that makes it hard for there to be 'real' plant humans etc. The rigid cell wall of a plant gives it a lot of strength but an APS: Plant character SHOULD have issues with movement and flexability. Or so my High School Biology teacher told me. But back to the DNA, the DNA itself would have to code for very different things, including the ability to produce chlorophyll etc that just isn't present in humans. You might say that SOME trace DNA markers would make it and with sufficently advanced DNA mapping you could find some matches, but it seems unlikely that the DNA would be the same in the 2 forms. Not that it matters in Comic books though



Daniel Stoker

[PigLickJF]

What about wood, though. I've never had an APS: Wood character in a game, but they are clearly organic. Would that wood[ugh] have the same DNA or is there a marked difference between mammalian and plant genetic structure?

There's not a marked differnce in genetic structure, perse, but there is a marked difference in genetic makeup. How/if the DNA changes between human form and APS:Wood form, however, is a big unknown obviously, but I'd say they'd be able to use the DNA as evidence some way or another.

As for APS: Anything else, I'd have to agree there wouldn't be any DNA...unless the GM rules that any bits of an APS character that are somehow removed from his body revert to flesh form. Since APS characters revert to flesh form if knocked unconscious, I'd say that would be a reasonble ruling, personally, but to each his own. I wouldn't extend that ruling to anything projected by an APS character though, such as APS:Fire (ie, the gouts of flame would not somehow revert to flesh after being fired or leave DNA evidence, but if the guy in fire form gets a finger lopped off, the finger would revert).

Back to my DNA questions again. What about people with the Alter Limbs power? They can spend H.P. to fire bullets from their altered limbs. Would you consider those bullets to be organic material, possibly bone fragments?

Since they spend HP to fire them, I'd definitely say they're organic material (bone does make the most sense) and would contain DNA.

PigLick

[Sir_Spirit]

Anything inorgance by it's very nature wouldn't have DNA to it since there aren't any cells making it up. It's one of the reasons why you can't test for DNA on a fossil unless there is some bone/organic matter left in it still.

"inorgance"=not a word, but the rest of it sounds true enough.

[Daniel Stoker]

Anything inorgance by it's very nature wouldn't have DNA to it since there aren't any cells making it up. It's one of the reasons why you can't test for DNA on a fossil unless there is some bone/organic matter left in it still.

"inorgance"=not a word, but the rest of it sounds true enough.

I was typing fast on a 'natural' keyboard I DESPISE... it was supposed to be inorganic.



Daniel Stoker

[PigLickJF]

What about wood, though. I've never had an APS: Wood character in a game, but they are clearly organic. Would that wood[ugh] have the same DNA or is there a marked difference between mammalian and plant genetic structure?

sure a scientist could probably tell what kind of wood, but saying there's a DNA marker in there somewhere seems weird. I'd say the super being's power changes the innate makeup of themselves. I agree there'd be metal or wooden versions of the bones, but they're _metal_ and therefore can't have a double helix. -- that's just me though.

There would still be markers. Every tree and plant has as unique a genetic structure as every human. Whether there would be human markers or not, though, is the question, and I'd say it could go either way. Perhaps the APS:Wood person has a genome that contains two complete genotypes- "flesh form" and "wood form."

Still though, even if they have no human markers in wood form, with some research the wood DNA could be used as evidence. I doubt many humans have wood DNA, so if you get a sample of DNA from an APS:Wood character and match it to a DNA sample found at a crime scene or something, that would definitely be admissable evidence. Just because it's not "normal" human DNA doesn't mean it couldn't be used.

PigLick

[Uncle Servo]

You know, I'm glad this thread has come up... I'm running forensics/medical type characters in two different campaigns (one an NPC, the other a PC), so it's good to see how others are dealing with the subject.

[PigLickJF]

well, I'm no geneticist or molecular biologist, but I do believe you can't just "rearrange" wood into a DNA helix.

Heh, well, I *am*, and I can tell you with all certainty that wood does indeed contain DNA. Wood is simply a "tissue," if you will, made up of plant cells, all of which have a nucleus and contain DNA, just like skin, muscle, and bones are tissues made up of animal cells, all of which have nuclei and contain DNA. It certainly doesn't mean that an APS:wood character would absolutely have DNA in wood form (since, as I'll metion in a moment, most other APS characters wouldn't necessarily have any in their non-flesh form), but it makes the most sense to me.

I would agree that APS: Metal, stone, etc wouldn't have DNA in their APS forms. I do think that, if the situation came up in a game I was GMing though, I would use the ruling I mentioned above that any bits of an APS character that are removed from their body revert to flesh form, and would indeed have DNA. That's a completely arbitrary and basically unsupported ruling though (other than the indirect evidence of reversion when unconscious), but I think it makes sense and is reasonable.

PigLick

[Borast]

Any APS power...depends.

In some campaigns, you turn into a metalised you, and when you revert, all pieces of you revert simultaneously, regardless of where it is. In others, it just summons a super-dense metal alloy shell. The first would revert to a piece of meat, the second would simply vanish.

As for the Fire APS...YES, each APS Fire (or a burster using his fire aura) would be completely unique in the same way that identical twins that are perfect clones of each other have a different basal thermal pattern that can be used to identify them.

[Iczer]

As for the Bio-Armour...no.
It seems to be a form of super keratin, and like finger nails and hair, there is no DNA, since it is not "live."

Both hair and fingernails do contain appreciable amounts of DNA. I couldn't find any evidence of whther chitin does or not, but I agree that bio-armor is more likely to be something similar to keratin than chitin anyway(unless it's the bio-armor of some sort of insectoid race).

PigLick

OUch. thats actually not correct. neither hair nor fingernails contain DNA. Only the root of the hair contains anything usefull to a forensic investigator, and fingernails only if they contain oils secreted by the owner (or blood, or the occasional flesh tag)

Insect Chitin is devoid of DNA.

Back to hair though, a strand analysis indicates the state of the body's biochemistry though. a smoaker leaves the residue of his intake in the strands of his hair. in fact a reasonable, but by no means perfect, facsimilie of a tox screening can be done by analysisng a person's hair. In fact, if testing for particular substances, notably things such as steroids, or othher drugs, past use can be found, even if the blood would normally be clean and clear. The residue of these drugs can be found in the hair history.

Batts

[Iczer]

Expanding on my original question, what about certain APS powers? I wouldn't expect fire to have a DNA signature, but would scrapings from an APS: Metal or splinters from an APS: Wood mutant leave DNA? Or any of the other APS powers?

On the APS: Fire topic, though, would varying mutants with the APS: Fire power have different thermal signatures that could be used to idenitify them?

It really depends. Of course the GM can always rule that seperated parts of an APS guy may revert to human form.
Technically, a person with APS wood may leave DNA samples. living wood does conatin it at least, though dead wood does not. Though the actual power remains vague on weather the character turns in to living wood or not, It is not out of the realms of the game to be able to turn into dead wood.

Be that as it may, when it all boils down to it, No APS character actually does turn into a perfect materiel. The fact that an APS person needs to breathe (and supposedly eat, heal, sleep and drink) and the fact that they are animate, indicates strongly that a scraping from APS metal guy may appear strongly dissimiliar to a scarping from regualr metal. Perhaps microscopically, the (now metallised) cell structure can be observed. In this instance, a person who can directly see DNA molecules, or has a power that allows them to do similiar, may observe the (now metalised) DNA strands. A regular DNA test would be innefective though. Such tests rely on actual chemical reactions, which would not work on metal.

All and all, it's sort of the GM's call (and I do hate that cop out). However there is no reason why an educated, and intelligent person in the field of forensics could not identify the difference between the remains of a splintered door, and the splintered reamins of an APS wood villain.

Batts

[Iczer]

The rigid cell wall of a plant gives it a lot of strength but an APS: Plant character SHOULD have issues with movement and flexability. Or so my High School Biology teacher told me.


Daniel Stoker

If aps wood or plant should have mobility issues, then surely APS metal and stone should be absolutely immobile.

And don't get me started with APS crystal then.

Batts

[Iczer]

when it comes down to it an eductade forensics detctive can tell a lot when it comes down to super abilities.

Surface area of the wound: defines the difference between tight beams and wide impacts. certainly no 2 meta beings are going to have identical dimensions.

Wound depth: How deep does the wound go. laser beams may punch straight through, while heat rays may have varying levels of depths depending on how much heat a body's tissue has dissapated

Surrounding skin: the condition of skin and tissue surrounding the wounds also tells a tale. refering above to heat dissipation, but also how the beam or blast has been affected by the interveneing air between target and shooter.

Wound condition: Temperature can be told from the wound condition. is the wound bleeding still? Seared: cauterised? Blackened to charcoal?

other conditions: what catalysts were involved in the blast? If it was fire, was there also a accellerant? IRL you cannot make a flame 'shoot' any appreciable distance without piggybacking it on some sort of chemical. and if we use 'comic' physics, then a flamethrower wound will look much different to a flame breath wound (in as such the flame breath may be conspicuous for it's absense of burnt chemicals at the wound). Electricity doesn't want to shoot out in a straight line either, so a power that makes it jump to a human target 60 feet away rather than to a grounded garbage can 10 feet away is under some influence. Psionically controlled? piggybacking on a stream of highly precharged particles? Lasers are good weapons, needing little encouragement to shoot of in a straight line, but energy (as in EE: energy) well....really the energy type can be guessed at.

Truly a wealth of forensic evidence. This just scratches the surface. a dedicated professional would have so much more insight, and would probably have a team working with him.

Batts

[ZEN]

Fingernails are quite similar to hair, substance wise.. they don't contain DNA, most red blood cells don't either, but some, particularly in smokers, do still contain DNA.. and of course, white blood cells contain DNA.
Energy expulsions.. up to the GM, I would allow a player character to tell the difference, but I would not allow an NPC to tell the difference.. player characters are always capable of making good skill rolls.
Remember, you can always create skill penalties for weird forensics like these.

[PigLickJF]

Fingernails are quite similar to hair, substance wise.. they don't contain DNA, most red blood cells don't either, but some, particularly in smokers, do still contain DNA.. and of course, white blood cells contain DNA.

Fingernails and hair do indeed contain DNA, and both can (and have been, I believe) used as forensic evidence, amongst other things (though I believe only mitochondrial DNA can be recovered from hair shafts- with a follicle attached, though, they yield plenty of genomic DNA). Though made mostly of keratin, hair and nails are still produced by living tissue and in the formation process some cellular material is incorporated into them, including genetic material. The structure of the material then protects the DNA from degradation, since the cells which contained it are obvisouly dead at this point. Also as mentioned above, many hairs found at crimes scenes will still have follicular material attached, which yields very useful amounts of DNA.

Never heard of RBCs with DNA, interesting. Something to do with them not being fully matured, probably? Still, I can't imagine you'd ever find a blood sample at a crime scene that contained only RBCs, hehe.

PigLick