Rifts, why are humans the pansies of the megaverse???

[dark brandon]

DarkBrandon, I truly believe that in our real world, in 10 000 Years, and if we don't kill ourselves off, then we'll have figured out by then at least the secrets of Immortality, and who knows what else?? Perhaps by then we really will create a Super-Techno Device that has COSMIC Powers, and can FORGE whatever the heart desires.....

Now where have I heard of this before?????

Well, Like I said, Humans still seem to be rather new to the megaverse I believe. Given time, who knows. The Jan. project in rifter 29 might be a good indication of where humans are heading.

[Killer Cyborg]

so humans aren't tougher than demons... big frickin' deal. Who cares...

Dude... we're not even tougher than FLOOPERS!

wait, wait, wait... you guys can always have your characters march in protest on the continent of atlantis demandin equal rights.... carry signs, come up with a snappy slogan... or you can just not care.

Good idea... if you think the Rifts books are written in Atlantis...

I haven't got my books with me right now but I'm relatively certain the main book addresses DB races in the front of the book and says unless you have a specific race in mind you can be a DB at GM approval just roll the character up normally. So there... are you happy? all of the other races unless they are specifically addressed are created equally

You obviosly don't get the problem.
Think it over.

Why get bent out of shape in Rifts... this is way better than 2nd ed ADND in my opinion where every race is inferior to elves in nearly every way, culturally and metaphysically.

Yeah... and I left 2nd Edition AD&D because of crap like that and because their system sucked.
These days Rifts doesn't seem to be much better, but that doesn't stop me from WANTING it to be better and it doesn't stop me from discussing things online with other people and discussing ideas on how to make things better.

Are you just mad you can't invade the nearby village of "handicapped and disabled alien and monster rest home?" weilding only a pair of broken second hand dentures duct taped to a walking stick?

Nope.
It all goes to power level.
In the original world of Rifts, the way it was presented in the main book and other early books, a human with some EBA and a MD weapon was unusually powerful. Most people on the planet, and most creatures, were SDC. The standard level of power was the Vagabond OCC; that was the everyman of Rifts Earth.
Even most MDC creatures were low-range mega-damage:
A T-Rex from the main book could be killed by a CS Grunt wielding a vibro-blade without that much of a battle.

As more and more books came out, the standard switched from Vagabond to CS Grunt (or any other guy in good EBA with decent MD weapons). The writers kept pumping out more and more powerful creatures, weapons, and armor. They took old monsters (dinosaurs, xiticix, etc) and made them vastly more powerful.
Every writer wanted the race he wrote, or the new gear he added to the world of Rifts to be Cool and Unique. Unfortunately, they almost invariably seemed to think that meant the same as "More Powerful".
Players, who were often attracted to Rifts in the first place because of th high power level of starting characters, found their characters becomming less and less powerful in comparison to the average character or monster in the books.
Of course, the GMs could have just written up SDC or low MD foes themselves, but what's the point of buying books if you're not going to use what's in them? Most GMs buy books to save the time and effort of creating the entire gameworld and every possible race by themselves, so they use what is printed in the books.
And what has been printed in the books has become more and more powerful with each book after Atlantis. The only fleshing out of Rifts Earth is done by increasing the average power level of the world.
Which is why power creep runs so rampant though the game.
If the writers had expanded the low-end of the power spectrum, players would have a chance to feel powerful occaisionally without owning Rune Swords or Naruni weapons or being one of the many super-powerful MDC races out there.

IT'S RIFTS!!!! Sci-Fi, magic, psionics and HORROR! People are SUPPOSED to be an endagered species... remember....

While that's a great argument against books like New West that suddenly up the human populations of the world by ignoring previous text, it has little to do with the subject at hand.
You've never seen a horror movie where the enemy is inferior to humans?
I suggest you check out:
-Gremlins
-Ghoulies
-Any Zombie Movie
-Aliens
-the Puppetmaster films
-or any of the many, many other horror films that don't deal with creatures that are completely superior and invincible.

For that matter, our main complaint isn't that humans are weaker than their enemies, it's that humans are weaker than 90% of the PC races out there. Rifts may be a horror movie for humans, but not for dragons, pogtals, Amazons, or any number of the other munchkiny RCCs that people play.

[Daniel Stoker]

You've never seen a horror movie where the enemy is inferior to humans?
I suggest you check out:
-Gremlins
-Ghoulies
-Any Zombie Movie
-Aliens
-the Puppetmaster films
-or any of the many, many other horror films that don't deal with creatures that are completely superior and invincible.

Gremlins - Let's see able to mess with machines in ways to kill people reproduce insanly fast and have better built in weapons then a human.

Ghoulies - Could they even be killed by normal weapons? It's been a long time since I saw the whole movie but I thought they were pretty much 'unkillable'?

Zombies - Oh you mean those unkillable things that keep on coming short of being shot in the head?

Aliens - You're kidding right? One of those things took out the crew of the Nostromo without blinking and should have just killed Ripley.

Puppet Masters - Do you realize how HARD it is to destroy those damn puppets? Plus the beat up demons in one of the later movies, DEMONS!




Daniel Stoker

[Zer0 Kay]

As was stated earlier, humans get bonus dice, whereas d-bees don't. So, humans have a chance of rolling 5d6 for any attribute.

Not in my games. Every one has a chance to role a bonus dice, just instead of needing a 16, 17 or 18 you would need the top X, where X=# of D6s thrown. 3d6 is numbers 16-18, 4D6 is numbers 21-24, 5D6 is 26-30. Only gets hard with D4s

Well, that goes blantantly against Cannon.
Which states that only if you roll a 2d6 or 3d6 for an attribute do you get the bonus die(s).

It may go against canon but so what. I use it too, why should humanity or rather anyone who rolls 2 or 3 d6 be allowed to have exceptional statistics for their race? If the higher rolling races die allowance is supposed to represent the lowest to the highest of their races then it should be the same for the 2s and 3s, especially since 180 IQ is above average anyway. So T= INT(RND * (N*D)) + N; If T>(N*D)-N THEN T=T+INT(RND*D)+1

[Zer0 Kay]

You've never seen a horror movie where the enemy is inferior to humans?
I suggest you check out:
-Gremlins
-Ghoulies
-Any Zombie Movie
-Aliens
-the Puppetmaster films
-or any of the many, many other horror films that don't deal with creatures that are completely superior and invincible.

Gremlins - Let's see able to mess with machines in ways to kill people reproduce insanly fast and have better built in weapons then a human.

Ghoulies - Could they even be killed by normal weapons? It's been a long time since I saw the whole movie but I thought they were pretty much 'unkillable'?

Zombies - Oh you mean those unkillable things that keep on coming short of being shot in the head?

Aliens - You're kidding right? One of those things took out the crew of the Nostromo without blinking and should have just killed Ripley.

Puppet Masters - Do you realize how HARD it is to destroy those damn puppets? Plus the beat up demons in one of the later movies, DEMONS!




Daniel Stoker

Aliens don't blink that requires eyes they just drool. Demons or Demonic Toys? You know they just showed Puppet Master vs. Demonic Toys on the Sci-fi channel. It's a pitty Full Moon Entertainment went under...the world is short cheezy movies now.


Edit: Forgot to mention Killer Klowns from Outer Space

[Daniel Stoker]

Aliens don't blink that requires eyes they just drool. Demons or Demonic Toys? You know they just showed Puppet Master vs. Demonic Toys on the Sci-fi channel. It's a pitty Full Moon Entertainment went under...the world is short cheezy movies now.


Edit: Forgot to mention Killer Klowns from Outer Space

Why do you think it was able to take the humans on without blinking?

And no it was Puppetmaster 4 if I'm not mistaken where they become good for some reason. Let's just say it wasn't the best of the series.

How can you ever forget the Killer Klowns?

Daniel Stoker

[cornholioprime]

The answer is probably a simple one, and is probably out-of-game related.

I'll answer your Question with another of my own.

Where's the super-duper multi-million Copy selling Role-Playing Game where the Humans are SUPERIOR to nearly everything else??

Notice I didn't ask you for a specific Title, because I'm sure that there is probably at least ONE Game out there. I asked you if you could name a hugely popular Game where the Humans are superior to nearly everything else out there......

Remember that even though this Game, as well as others, features a wide variety of Races/Species available to play, the vast majority of RPG Fans and Gamers will either play as Humans or the closest thing in the game that looks like a Human (D &D® Elf, anyone??).....just as it seems that vast majority of Rifts Players seem to want to be ex-CS Soldiers of one sort or another, or at the very least a Human in one of the Magic Kingdoms. In my experience many if not most Players opt to NEVER play Non-Humans, almost unconsciously.

Now ask yourself: what happens to that Role Playing Game you've just created if the Characters/Races that your fans play the most, are superior to those around them??? Any Campaign composed of Humans who don't have to overcome obstacles and fight for their lives against stronger, exotic enemies would be pretty dull, don't you think???

I paraphrase and restate the Question I asked you at the beginning of this Post. Surely somebody by now has thought of a "Humans Superior to Nearly Everybody Else" kind of Role-Playing Game.

Where is it and what kind of Sales is it getting, if it's even still around???

[Killer Cyborg]

The answer is probably a simple one, and is probably out-of-game related.

I'll answer your Question with another of my own.

Where's the super-duper multi-million Copy selling Role-Playing Game where the Humans are SUPERIOR to nearly everything else??

Notice I didn't ask you for a specific Title, because I'm sure that there is probably at least ONE Game out there. I asked you if you could name a hugely popular Game where the Humans are superior to nearly everything else out there......

Remember that even though this Game, as well as others, features a wide variety of Races/Species available to play, the vast majority of RPG Fans and Gamers will either play as Humans or the closest thing in the game that looks like a Human (D &D® Elf, anyone??).....just as it seems that vast majority of Rifts Players seem to want to be ex-CS Soldiers of one sort or another, or at the very least a Human in one of the Magic Kingdoms. In my experience many if not most Players opt to NEVER play Non-Humans, almost unconsciously.

Now ask yourself: what happens to that Role Playing Game you've just created if the Characters/Races that your fans play the most, are superior to those around them??? Any Campaign composed of Humans who don't have to overcome obstacles and fight for their lives against stronger, exotic enemies would be pretty dull, don't you think???

I paraphrase and restate the Question I asked you at the beginning of this Post. Surely somebody by now has thought of a "Humans Superior to Nearly Everybody Else" kind of Role-Playing Game.

Where is it and what kind of Sales is it getting, if it's even still around???

All Flesh Must Be Eaten (depending on what level of zombies you use), just off the top of my head....

You're missing the point.
It's not that anybody wants to play a game where they're a human and "don't have to overcome obstacles and fight for their lives against stronger, exotic enemies".
It's that people don't want to play a game where their normal humans are completely outclassed by the rest of the PCs and every monster they encounter.

You asked the wrong question. You should have asked "Where's the super-duper multi-million Copy selling Role-Playing Game where the Humans are not inferior to nearly everything else??"

And the answer is "pretty much everywhere but Rifts".
For example, D20 elves, dwarves, etc. aren't superior to humans. They're in the same league with different areas of specialization.
For that matter, PFRPG humans are in the same league as the rest of the PC races.
MOST rpgs are this way (White Wolf being the only exception I can think of).

[cornholioprime]

"....It's that people don't want to play a game where their normal humans are completely outclassed by the rest of the PCs and every monster they encounter...."

The overall point is that the Humans in nearly ALL RPGs where they face off against exotic, numerically or physically stronger foes have the best Advantage of all: Adaptibility. The D20 Game you mentioned has foes whose Racial Characteristics give them quite a Physical Edge over their Human Counterparts, but still makes Humans 'superior' in the realms of adaptibility (they STILL get the most overall Choices/Classes/Alignments, etc., in that Game, no??).
There have been any number of responses to this Post that state that the Humans' minds usually trump anything physical that most of the other Races can muster, but many of the Responses stubbornly stick to things like "...Oh, my, that Flooper there has MDC and greater PS than a Human..." or "even Gurgoyles are much stronger than Humans, plus they bio-regenerate...!"

I can't speak for other people, but give me a Species with an inquisitive, adaptive mind and a weak Physical Body any day of the week over the reverse. As far as I know, we are bar none the physically weakest and most fragile Carbon-based Life Forms on our Planet as it is (pound for pound). But we're not doing too shabbily for ourselves, are we?

It's good to be at the TOP of the Food Chain.

[Sir_Spirit]

I can't speak for other people, but give me a Species with an inquisitive, adaptive mind and a weak Physical Body any day of the week over the reverse. As far as I know, we are bar none the physically weakest and most fragile Carbon-based Life Forms on our Planet as it is (pound for pound). But we're not doing too shabbily for ourselves, are we?

It's good to be at the TOP of the Food Chain.

Well said.

[Killer Cyborg]

"....It's that people don't want to play a game where their normal humans are completely outclassed by the rest of the PCs and every monster they encounter...."

The overall point is that the Humans in nearly ALL RPGs where they face off against exotic, numerically or physically stronger foes have the best Advantage of all: Adaptibility. The D20 Game you mentioned has foes whose Racial Characteristics give them quite a Physical Edge over their Human Counterparts, but still makes Humans 'superior' in the realms of adaptibility (they STILL get the most overall Choices/Classes/Alignments, etc., in that Game, no??).
There have been any number of responses to this Post that state that the Humans' minds usually trump anything physical that most of the other Races can muster, but many of the Responses stubbornly stick to things like "...Oh, my, that Flooper there has MDC and greater PS than a Human..." or "even Gurgoyles are much stronger than Humans, plus they bio-regenerate...!"

I can't speak for other people, but give me a Species with an inquisitive, adaptive mind and a weak Physical Body any day of the week over the reverse. As far as I know, we are bar none the physically weakest and most fragile Carbon-based Life Forms on our Planet as it is (pound for pound). But we're not doing too shabbily for ourselves, are we?

It's good to be at the TOP of the Food Chain.

1. In D20 AD&D, all races pretty much have the same number of class choices.
2. I agree with pretty much everything else you say here, but you're missing something.

In the main book, and other early books, humans were at a clear advantage. Dragons are tough, but they get crappy skills and can't go near CS territory. Dog Boys are physically tougher than humans and they are often just as intelligent as humans, but they are stuck being dog-boys. They are generally a subservient race to humans. While individuals may rise beyond this, they have the social disadvantage in most of North America.
Unmodified humans had the edge, thanks mostly to the Coalition.
But that rapidly changed.
Floopers are, stupidly enough, physically very superior to humans. But they are also restricted by racial trends and social restrictions. Few people would play them.
But every book brings more and more races into the mix, more and more of them being our mental equals and our physical superiors. Our only advantage is social, and that isn't even an advantage in many places.
For that matter, there are a number of races that blend in well enough with human society that we don't even have a social advantage anymore.
Amazons, Atlanteans, Neo-Humans, Chiang-Ku, etc.

Humans are far from the only intelligent, adaptable race in Rifts. The world is chock full of them, a number of which are even superior to humans both physically and mentally, and the number is increasing.

[cornholioprime]

"....It's that people don't want to play a game where their normal humans are completely outclassed by the rest of the PCs and every monster they encounter...."

The overall point is that the Humans in nearly ALL RPGs where they face off against exotic, numerically or physically stronger foes have the best Advantage of all: Adaptibility. The D20 Game you mentioned has foes whose Racial Characteristics give them quite a Physical Edge over their Human Counterparts, but still makes Humans 'superior' in the realms of adaptibility (they STILL get the most overall Choices/Classes/Alignments, etc., in that Game, no??).
There have been any number of responses to this Post that state that the Humans' minds usually trump anything physical that most of the other Races can muster, but many of the Responses stubbornly stick to things like "...Oh, my, that Flooper there has MDC and greater PS than a Human..." or "even Gurgoyles are much stronger than Humans, plus they bio-regenerate...!"

I can't speak for other people, but give me a Species with an inquisitive, adaptive mind and a weak Physical Body any day of the week over the reverse. As far as I know, we are bar none the physically weakest and most fragile Carbon-based Life Forms on our Planet as it is (pound for pound). But we're not doing too shabbily for ourselves, are we?

It's good to be at the TOP of the Food Chain.

1. In D20 AD&D, all races pretty much have the same number of class choices.
2. I agree with pretty much everything else you say here, but you're missing something.

In the main book, and other early books, humans were at a clear advantage. Dragons are tough, but they get crappy skills and can't go near CS territory. Dog Boys are physically tougher than humans and they are often just as intelligent as humans, but they are stuck being dog-boys. They are generally a subservient race to humans. While individuals may rise beyond this, they have the social disadvantage in most of North America.
Unmodified humans had the edge, thanks mostly to the Coalition.
But that rapidly changed.
Floopers are, stupidly enough, physically very superior to humans. But they are also restricted by racial trends and social restrictions. Few people would play them.
But every book brings more and more races into the mix, more and more of them being our mental equals and our physical superiors. Our only advantage is social, and that isn't even an advantage in many places.
For that matter, there are a number of races that blend in well enough with human society that we don't even have a social advantage anymore.
Amazons, Atlanteans, Neo-Humans, Chiang-Ku, etc.

Humans are far from the only intelligent, adaptable race in Rifts. The world is chock full of them, a number of which are even superior to humans both physically and mentally, and the number is increasing.

I acknowledge (and accept) the Power Creep Argument that you speak of, which seems to have increased over the years.

Still, I wonder how much of this is due to Player/Customer demands rather than the Authors' wishes????

[Killer Cyborg]

Still, I wonder how much of this is due to Player/Customer demands rather than the Authors' wishes????

Doesn't matter.
When a business (other than prostitution) decides that it's prime directive is to please the fans, that business is doomed.
Why?
Because different people want different things, and because a LOT of fans are going to be complete idiots. It's the same in any line of work.

As a general rule, Customers don't know what's good for them.

[Killer Cyborg]

humans are "all-purpose" They can be just about anything, they're not specialized, if humans were super powerfull, then would there be all this commotion on rifts earth? if humans were super powerfull the cataclysm prolly would have destroyed the planet( there would be no game to have powerfull humans in) and even if the planet survived, then the demons wouldnt have won the battle and took over places, it would just be humans and maybe the occasional D.B here and there.

Read the whole thread.
We've already addressed all that.

[Mack]

When a business (other than prostitution) decides that it's prime directive is to please the fans, that business is doomed.
Why?

Yea, I hate it when a business tries to please me.

[cornholioprime]

When a business (other than prostitution) decides that it's prime directive is to please the fans, that business is doomed.
Why?

Yea, I hate it when a business tries to please me.

One of the funniest Responses this year!!!!!