How to make Amana RCC useful?

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How to make Amana RCC useful?

Unread post by MyDumpStatIsMA »

I like healers, but at the same time must admit they're largely useless characters until someone's injured or otherwise requires medical aid.

The best way to be a healer is as a high-level mage, wherein powerful healing spells are a secondary focus to the many other things a mage can do.

However, this leaves a substantial gap in healing ability in the early-to-mid character levels, with psychic healing serving as an adequate stopgap. The problem with psychic healing is that it's simply not as strong or all-encompassing as magic healing.

Enter the Amana, which is effectively a healing Mystic, combining the best elements of magic healing with minor psychic abilities. The drawback to the RCC is catastrophic, unfortunately. Not being able to take any OCCs is simply asking too much of players. It also strains credulity that an entire race of people would rather excessively devote themselves to learning only healing skills, when in fact they can heal as naturally and easily as breathing. Why should they all be medical doctors and pathologists? I assume their healing ability is intuitive, and if it's not, there's always Psychic Diagnosis; which doesn't require much, if any, formal medical knowledge.

Also, didn't anyone ever need to fix anything mechanical or do anything practical on their homeworld (before it was destroyed and/or conquered)?

I don't mind the non-violent passivity of the race (which begs the question of why they're given any WPs at all). What I do mind, is not having any psychic abilities or freedom to learn spells that can be used in a non-violent, self-defensive way. Bio-Manipulation and Empathic Transmission would both be excellent, and logical, powers for Amana to possess naturally. Likewise, they should be allowed to learn magic spells, so long as said knowledge wouldn't be used to kill or maim.

I feel the Amana should be allowed to become any OCC that can be used non-violently. So, a Ley Line Walker that doesn't learn any attack spells; a Mind Melter that only uses its ability selection for defensive or utility powers; a Rogue Scientist or Scholar, etc.

There should be a hard line drawn that the Amana, as a race, refuse to kill; but that doesn't mean the character has to be utterly useless 99% of the time it's not healing.
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Re: How to make Amana RCC useful?

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

1. Use the term: race when talking about a a race. Not some Character Class type who's words mean its 'restricted to' or 'mandatory for' a certain race. (speaking as an OCD person)

2. Say where you are taking a race from, saying what book that race is in and the page number. Don't presume everyone knows where the race is located in the books. (speaking as someone who does not have the time to 'go find it')

3. (speaking from a GM's outlook) Ignore stupid text that makes no sense like this race can only be this Racial Character Class because someone was too lazy to write up the Race and RCC as two separate things, with the details of both clearly attributed to which one. But you need to make the determination about wether the powers are a part of the Race or if they are a part of the Character Class. If they look like they are a part of the race; like how DogBoys'/Psi Hounds' powers are a part of their race not their Character Class; then you can ditch the Character Class as irrelevant except for those individuals of the race that are Traditional in their outlook in life or have taken up the healer's life-path, and have them take up some job oriented Character Class. Otherwise known as OCCs.
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Re: How to make Amana RCC useful?

Unread post by Curbludgeon »

I began putting a list together of all the different ways to heal damage, out of the idle curiosity to see which healer is the most healing. I imagine it would be the god of the Amana, since there's no other way to get the Deific abilities. Superpowers cover a lot of ground, and without verifying suspect some HU2 Immortal could cherry pick a combination of magic/psionics/superpowers.

It is a little odd to imagine an entire species so focused that they don't have things like mechanics. Optimizing an Amana for combat is pretty straightforward: HtH:Basic, WP Energy Rifle, and the best non-military/non-RPA pilot they can get (Hovercraft?). I don't know how much more they need available, what with how they're presented.
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Re: How to make Amana RCC useful?

Unread post by MyDumpStatIsMA »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:1. Use the term: race when talking about a a race. Not some Character Class type who's words mean its 'restricted to' or 'mandatory for' a certain race. (speaking as an OCD person)

2. Say where you are taking a race from, saying what book that race is in and the page number. Don't presume everyone knows where the race is located in the books. (speaking as someone who does not have the time to 'go find it')

3. (speaking from a GM's outlook) Ignore stupid text that makes no sense like this race can only be this Racial Character Class because someone was too lazy to write up the Race and RCC as two separate things, with the details of both clearly attributed to which one. But you need to make the determination about wether the powers are a part of the Race or if they are a part of the Character Class. If they look like they are a part of the race; like how DogBoys'/Psi Hounds' powers are a part of their race not their Character Class; then you can ditch the Character Class as irrelevant except for those individuals of the race that are Traditional in their outlook in life or have taken up the healer's life-path, and have them take up some job oriented Character Class. Otherwise known as OCCs.


The Amana are from D-Bees of North America. I don't have the book in front of me, but since it's in alphabetical order, that makes it easy to find.

From my understanding, the Amana are a race of D-Bee that quite literally lives to heal and do nothing else. Under character creation categories like 'magic' and 'available OCCs', it just says 'none, the Amana are natural born healers.'

What I'm having a problem with, is the notion that healing (outside of combat) is considered so powerful as to utterly neuter the RCC as a playable character. It's not a bad concept as an NPC, as we can imagine why various factions would fight for possession of such a D-Bee, but there's zero incentive for players to want to play as Amana.
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Re: How to make Amana RCC useful?

Unread post by MyDumpStatIsMA »

Curbludgeon wrote:Optimizing an Amana for combat is pretty straightforward: HtH:Basic, WP Energy Rifle, and the best non-military/non-RPA pilot they can get (Hovercraft?). I don't know how much more they need available, what with how they're presented.


The problem isn't that simple. The background text is very clear that they can't stand the idea of fighting or, more specifically, harming or causing pain to other living things.

I'm okay with that part. What I object to is not giving them any non-violent powers/spell knowledge (or ability to learn spells) that allows them to participate in a fight in any meaningful capacity.

They could've been a nuanced class that would be challenging, but rewarding, to play. They wouldn't fight to kill, but to end the fighting as quickly as possible. They would disable enemies, not kill or maim; this means not using conventional weapons. Even if they used non-violent weapons, they'd never have the physical stats necessary to do well with them. The only practical way to fight would be via psionics or magic.

Instead they're one-dimensional and incredibly weak whether they use weapons or not.
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Re: How to make Amana RCC useful?

Unread post by MyDumpStatIsMA »

For the record, I think making the Amana more enjoyable as a player character--while still being true to the race's background info and overall theme--could be relatively straightforward.

Simply give it the magic and psionic progression of the Mystic OCC. Since the Amana is effectively a Mystic anyway--it uses the equivalent of high-level magic spells for its healing abilities, which it knows intuitively, and are fueled by PPE; and it's a major psychic besides--then it really isn't a stretch to have it intuitively learn more magic as it progresses. Along with the super psionics the Mystic can choose at levels 4 and 8.

Right now, there essentially is zero meaningful progression to the character, beyond skill percentages.

I'd also make it so the 4 psychic ability choices it gets at level one, are expanded to the healing and/or sensitive category. Currently they're limited to healing only, which strikes me, once again, as silly and redundant. Or just give it the Mystic's 5 choices split between the same categories.

The Amana RCC skills and related would remain the same. The PPE and ISP pools from the Mystic would be merged with the RCC's pools, since neither are especially large.

The resulting class hybrid would still be offensively weaker than even a standard Mystic, since the Amana can't take ANY physical skills, and can't elevate its HtoH beyond Expert. But at least it could provide support to the group, other than waiting for somebody to get their arm blown off.
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Re: How to make Amana RCC useful?

Unread post by Curbludgeon »

I'd be inclined to have an Amana character just avail themselves of technowizard items, in lieu of making them a full fledged practitioner of magic. A fun more magically-themed doctor species can be found in the Shakdan, in DB14.

While the fluff definitely describes the species as pacifist, my earlier point as to the game mechanical combat optimization of the RCC stands. Getting HtH:Expert takes 4 Related skills, which isn't a good tradeoff. They can neither take Boxing, nor any military or RPA skills, and are limited as to modern WPs.
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Re: How to make Amana RCC useful?

Unread post by MyDumpStatIsMA »

Curbludgeon wrote:I'd be inclined to have an Amana character just avail themselves of technowizard items, in lieu of making them a full fledged practitioner of magic.


TW gear wouldn't change the fact that playing the character would remain a relatively dull experience. And it'd also be a drag on the group, since whatever weapons/armor the Amana character used, it'd only use them at the bare minimum of efficacy. It'd be missing a lot of its shots, getting hit a lot because it'd have no dodge bonuses, no bonuses to roll with hits, etc.

Yes, you could give it, say, a TW Snare Gun (if you want to continue the non-violent theme). But enemies could still make fairly easy save rolls against the default magic difficulty.

A Mystic gains bonuses to spell strength very early on. It's +3 by level 8, which is better than the vast majority of same-level mages and TW weapon spell effects. While the Mystic's spell selection is limited, it's going to be more successful in applying magical effects due to the spell strength. That would be very important in bringing the Amana out of total hopelessness, and into partial functionality.
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Re: How to make Amana RCC useful?

Unread post by Curbludgeon »

WB30 describes the Amana as by nature lousy fighters who find inflicting pain nauseating, and whom species looking to enslave them tend to see as weak-willed pacifists. That doesn't mean they don't get bonuses to rolls in combat. The majority of adventuring Amana would have Hand to Hand:Basic, if not a couple of W.P.s.

I guess if I wanted to revamp the species I'd first look at what healing effects they're unable to effect themselves as is. Is the ability to regrow limbs roughly analogous to, say, being able to expel symbiotes?

I'd imagine if an Amana encountered some Lemurians or Jungle Elves, and bought into the anti-tech mindset, that they'd take well to Biomancy.
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Re: How to make Amana RCC useful?

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Curbludgeon wrote:WB30 describes the Amana as by nature lousy fighters who find inflicting pain nauseating, and whom species looking to enslave them tend to see as weak-willed pacifists. That doesn't mean they don't get bonuses to rolls in combat. The majority of adventuring Amana would have Hand to Hand:Basic, if not a couple of W.P.s.


I was referring to all the physical skills they can't take, that confer bonuses to various combat rolls. Beyond that, the class bonuses that many OCCs and RCCs add on top of those.

I mean, the Barmaid OCC gets +2 to initiative and can become a combat powerhouse (relatively speaking) just via HtoH Assassin and boxing.

Even a relatively pacifist character concept like the Psi-Druid has more varied skills/abilities and combat potential than the Amana.

Basic HtoH plus an energy rifle/pistol WP is still going to leave the Amana desperately weak compared to 99% of OCCs/RCCs. Which is why I think the only useful direction it can go in is magic or psionics.

Curbludgeon wrote:I guess if I wanted to revamp the species I'd first look at what healing effects they're unable to effect themselves as is. Is the ability to regrow limbs roughly analogous to, say, being able to expel symbiotes?

I'd imagine if an Amana encountered some Lemurians or Jungle Elves, and bought into the anti-tech mindset, that they'd take well to Biomancy.


I would assume symbiotes are removable, though it's odd they're not specifically mentioned. Especially considering the Splugorth and their methods should be repugnant to the Amana, and destroying symbiotes should be a top healing priority.

As for Biomancy: it would be logical for the Amana to learn it, but I still think general invocations would be more broadly useful. Especially at low levels.
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Re: How to make Amana RCC useful?

Unread post by MyDumpStatIsMA »

Curbludgeon wrote:I guess if I wanted to revamp the species I'd first look at what healing effects they're unable to effect themselves as is. Is the ability to regrow limbs roughly analogous to, say, being able to expel symbiotes?


I looked into this some more.

Consulting the Book of Magic and Splynn Dimensional Market WB 21 (which covers how symbiotes and parasites are removed), has led me to the following conclusions:

The 9th/10th level invocations, Purge Self/Other, effectively eliminate AIDS and cancer (and everything in between, so long as it's a virus or bacteria). The description explicitly mentions Splugorth symbiotes and parasites.

The 14th level invocation, Restoration, was also repeatedly mentioned in Splynn, as being an alternative to surgery for the elimination of symbiotes/parasites.

So, to summarize, you can eliminate any foreign disease element with Purge, then attempt to repair the lingering damage it caused, by following up with Restoration. It looks like a 1-2 healing punch that should wipe out pretty much anything (barring magic diseases, curses, etc).

The Amana 'super-healing' ability can also eliminate AIDS and cancer (explicitly mentioned in the race history blurb), as well as having a 33% chance of even curing genetic disorders. Because of the functional similarities with Purge, I would say that it definitely can eliminate symbiotes/parasites.

The separate Amana ability, the one that regrows limbs, would seemingly be more akin to Restoration, or even the level 15 Ley Line Restoration spell (I mention the latter because the time since dismemberment isn't a factor; it can regrow a limb from nothing, essentially).

Pretty much the only thing special about Amana healing, is its availability at level 1, as well as its relatively low PPE ability costs. But it appears as though everything it does can be replicated by other high-level magic*.

*Except for the genetic disease curing ability, I guess?
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Re: How to make Amana RCC useful?

Unread post by Curbludgeon »

I don't know. No one is going to claim that the Mystic class is in itself munchkin, nor that an Amana with the abilities of a Mystic is an over-the-top concept for a HU Mega-Hero. There's probably some lesser version of such where the Amana can cast Carpet of Adhesion and Exorcism or whatever which would satisfy most players.
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Re: How to make Amana RCC useful?

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MyDumpStatIsMA wrote:The drawback to the RCC is catastrophic, unfortunately. Not being able to take any OCCs is simply asking too much of players. It also strains credulity that an entire race of people would rather excessively devote themselves to learning only healing skills, when in fact they can heal as naturally and easily as breathing. Why should they all be medical doctors and pathologists? I assume their healing ability is intuitive, and if it's not, there's always Psychic Diagnosis; which doesn't require much, if any, formal medical knowledge.

Is the Amana unique in being limited to a single RCC that cannot take a OCC? That can't be it because there are ~32 Races in WB30: DBoNA that cannot take an OCC out of the 86 (per the back cover) in the book. And I'm pretty sure if I go through some of my other WB/DB/SBs for Rifts I'd be able to add to the count. So, it really isn't unusual or asking too much for a player.

Now to a point I can agree the notion of "entire race" as one-class does come across as dumb, but that is what skill selections are for to allow species to diversify in terms of skill sets so they are not so cookie-cutter. Now some races might be able to diversify more than others in terms of skills, but the problem is not unique to the Amana.

As for them all becoming healers is it possible that they have steered toward this outcome as a result of their constant on Empathy ability? Perhaps their focus on this is a coping mechanism due to their Empathic ability, or they have some unstated biological response to this activity.

MyDumpStatIsMA wrote:Also, didn't anyone ever need to fix anything mechanical or do anything practical on their homeworld (before it was destroyed and/or conquered)?

What evidence do you have on their technological level, and that their available skills would not be adequate? They can take Basic Electronics or Basic Mechanics (and have the full scope of Technical/Science), which could be quite adequate for a society at say 19th Century level technology. I didn't see anything to indicate they were previously a high-tech (post 20th Century level).

MyDumpStatIsMA wrote:(which begs the question of why they're given any WPs at all)

Several reasons come to mind. WP: Knife does apply to physical surgery IIRC (though this might be more "flavor" based than game mechanical, CyberDocs and Body Fixers both get WP: Knife with a bonus). Hunting and Wilderness Survival might justify some of the WPs available (they have to eat, and IINM they aren't vegetarians so...)

MyDumpStatIsMA wrote: Bio-Manipulation and Empathic Transmission would both be excellent, and logical, powers for Amana to possess naturally.

Both Powers are also Super Psionic, and the race is naturally a Major Psychic. Which generally dictates what powers/Categories are actually available to a given race justifying them not having it (I'm not saying there might not be exceptions out there with Major Psychic with "Master" powers).

MyDumpStatIsMA wrote:Likewise, they should be allowed to learn magic spells, so long as said knowledge wouldn't be used to kill or maim.

Why? There is nothing usual about a race with limited magic casting abilities that can't learn new spells is there? Are the Amana unique in this capacity?

MyDumpStatIsMA wrote:I'm okay with that part. What I object to is not giving them any non-violent powers/spell knowledge (or ability to learn spells) that allows them to participate in a fight in any meaningful capacity.

Why does every class/character have to be able to participate in a fight in a "meaningful capacity"? It should be pointed out that "meaningful capacity" can vary from combat encounter to combat encounter and will depend on what skills they have selected, and possibly even what gear they have with them (vulnerabilities and weakness).

In ranged combat, an Amana with HTH: Basic and WP: E-gun(s) ignoring level, will have the same Strike bonuses as most other classes since strike bonuses from physical skills/HTH don't factor in, and PP isn't much different. Now in terms of dodge/parry/roll they are at a disadvantage, but in ranged combat all of those are (IIRC) at -10 anyway.

In melee combat, an Amana with HTH: Basic and WP: Ancient is going to be at a disadvantage in terms of bonuses, but not significantly (aside from PP/Class bonuses). If you took all Physical skills in RUE it would only contribute a total of +3 parry/dodge, the only bonus to strike applies only to Sword/Knife (also a +1 parry bonus with a sword), +7 to Roll (Roll only works on certain types of attacks, so in theory it is possible to make this useless), Boxing provides a +1 attack (you're down, but not necessarily over powering). There is also a +1 initiative and +1 Pull Punch and +1 disarm (on their own not that significant a bonus). Now physical skills do provide bonuses to SDC, which would not apply to the MDC Amana (IINM). They do miss out on the +13 to PS, +2 to PP, +10 to PE and +4-26 to Spd. The loss in PP is probably not going to be that big a factor (+1strike/parry/dodge IF PP is in the bonus range), the others might have a bigger influence (PS for SD damage, not helpful in an MDC fight IIRC). So yes, they are at a disadvantage, but not terribly so unless they are facing a melee orientated character (in which case even if they could it might not be enough to bring them up to par).

In vehicular/mecha combat, while they can function as secondary crewman who could use the Weapon System Skill (Pilot Related, which is available) or the ECM skill (communications, also available) even if they can't normally pilot said platform. Given mecha combat is basically an extension of ranged combat, we're likely looking at an extension of the above results with the lack of parry/dodge being handled by the pilot(s). The Combat Driving Skill (available technically IMHO), gives them a bonus to dodge which might be useful if they are the driver of a vehicle in combat (practically on par with Robot Combat bonuses to Dodge on the ground) that doesn't qualify as "military vehicle" skill (so any Pilot skill not labeled Military: [insert types here], which means motorcycle, automobile, hovercraft/cycles, etc).
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Re: How to make Amana RCC useful?

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ShadowLogan wrote:Is the Amana unique in being limited to a single RCC that cannot take a OCC? That can't be it because there are ~32 Races in WB30: DBoNA that cannot take an OCC out of the 86 (per the back cover) in the book. And I'm pretty sure if I go through some of my other WB/DB/SBs for Rifts I'd be able to add to the count. So, it really isn't unusual or asking too much for a player.


Name another RCC from WB30, besides the Posluznik, that is as equally limited as the Amana. This isn't about an RCC that can't choose an OCC, it's about an extremely narrowly focused AND offensively/defensively weak RCC that can't choose an OCC.

The whole point that I'm objecting to, is how healing could be considered so powerful as to justify keeping the RCC's focus as narrow as it is. If the game designers/writers don't want a lot of powerful healing abilities available at early levels, then just don't make the RCC at all. Instead, they allow us to have a character like the Amana, but handicap it in so many ways that nobody would really want to play it. I just don't get the logic.

ShadowLogan wrote:Now to a point I can agree the notion of "entire race" as one-class does come across as dumb, but that is what skill selections are for to allow species to diversify in terms of skill sets so they are not so cookie-cutter. Now some races might be able to diversify more than others in terms of skills, but the problem is not unique to the Amana.


Most RCCs and OCCs that have limited skill selection are compensated in other ways. Mind Melter, etc. What makes the Amana absurd is that they can't fight as well as even a Barmaid OCC, AND have limited skills, AND have limited abilities/powers.

ShadowLogan wrote:What evidence do you have on their technological level, and that their available skills would not be adequate? They can take Basic Electronics or Basic Mechanics (and have the full scope of Technical/Science), which could be quite adequate for a society at say 19th Century level technology. I didn't see anything to indicate they were previously a high-tech (post 20th Century level).


If they can study all science/medical skills, that would put them well beyond 19th century tech levels. Artificial Intelligence is one glaring contradiction. They can learn that, but not Locksmith from the mechanics section? Really?

The absurdity is that they can't learn ANY mechanical or electrical skills beyond basic, yet, are allowed to study both scientific and medical (Cybernetics) skills that are way beyond most mechanical and electrical skills in complexity and modernity.

ShadowLogan wrote:Several reasons come to mind. WP: Knife does apply to physical surgery IIRC (though this might be more "flavor" based than game mechanical, CyberDocs and Body Fixers both get WP: Knife with a bonus). Hunting and Wilderness Survival might justify some of the WPs available (they have to eat, and IINM they aren't vegetarians so...)


They hold even insect life as sacred. I'm not sure how hunting an animal, butchering it, and eating it, would fit into that worldview.

The only lifeforms they're allowed, by their own lore writeup, to kill, are demons and dark gods who exist for no other reason than to destroy/harm others.

ShadowLogan wrote:Both Powers are also Super Psionic, and the race is naturally a Major Psychic. Which generally dictates what powers/Categories are actually available to a given race justifying them not having it (I'm not saying there might not be exceptions out there with Major Psychic with "Master" powers).


Mystic OCC is a major psychic that gives two super psionics, and the Amana RCC functions very much like a Mystic besides. It's not a stretch in the slightest.

ShadowLogan wrote:
Why? There is nothing usual about a race with limited magic casting abilities that can't learn new spells is there? Are the Amana unique in this capacity?


Again, most other RCCs/OCCs that are so limited, are given some freedoms in other regards.

ShadowLogan wrote: Why does every class/character have to be able to participate in a fight in a "meaningful capacity"?


Because large swathes of the game revolve around combat? And it's boring to play through these portions of a story with very little to do. And, while there are plenty of characters who can't fight well, as I've said, they can typically do something else well.

The Amana is limited to, more or less, waiting until somebody gets an arm blown off. Then it's their time to shine!

As I said, a Psi-Druid is basically a healer class, but has many more options and nuance in how to play it. The Amana is one-dimensional.

ShadowLogan wrote:In ranged combat, an Amana with HTH: Basic and WP: E-gun(s) ignoring level, will have the same Strike bonuses as most other classes since strike bonuses from physical skills/HTH don't factor in, and PP isn't much different. Now in terms of dodge/parry/roll they are at a disadvantage, but in ranged combat all of those are (IIRC) at -10 anyway.


Amana's going to have awful initiative. This is something that even a Mystic OCC can compensate for in a variety of ways.

All ranged combat defense rolls aren't against modern weapons. A dodge roll is still important for dodging certain magical attacks.

Beyond playing devil's advocate, I don't understand why you're arguing that the Amana isn't as weak as it looks. The only way to make 99% of OCCs/RCCs this weak, is to intentionally not choose physical and combat skills. That's fine, because you get a choice. What makes the Amana a poor design, is that you don't get the choice.

You get the ability to use high level healing magic, at level 1, in exchange for literally everything else that the vast majority of other OCCs/RCCs can do. That's the problem in a nutshell. I'm saying that being able to use high-level healing at level 1 is not powerful enough to justify losing out on every other aspect of being a multi-faceted and enjoyable-to-play character.
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Re: How to make Amana RCC useful?

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Use them as chum for sharks, along with floopers.
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Re: How to make Amana RCC useful?

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MyDumpStatIsMA wrote:Name another RCC from WB30, besides the Posluznik, that is as equally limited as the Amana. This isn't about an RCC that can't choose an OCC, it's about an extremely narrowly focused AND offensively/defensively weak RCC that can't choose an OCC.

In terms of physical/WP Skills there are a few in WB30:
-Amorph's cannot take any physical skills, and can only take 3 WPs
-Dirari Ecto-man cannot take any physical skills, WPs they aren't restricted
-Farie 'Bot cannot take any physical skills or WPs
-Loronoids cannot take any physical skills or WPs (they get 2 WP)
-Psi-X Aliens cannot take any physical skills or WPs (they don't even have "related skills" its just Secondary and Class)
-Sasquatch cannot take any physical skils or WP (technically the Worldly variant can take WPs)

There are additional races that are restricted to an RCC that have access to WP but not Physical Skills.

MyDumpStatIsMA wrote:If they can study all science/medical skills, that would put them well beyond 19th century tech levels. Artificial Intelligence is one glaring contradiction. They can learn that, but not Locksmith from the mechanics section? Really?

There are a few ways to approach this:
1. Some of these skills did not develop due to their cultural outlook on their homeworld. These guys are not adept at fighting, so they have very little use for Vehicular Armorer and Weapons Engineer. Locksmith might not be needed in their society (being psychics and such). And so on.
2. We are looking at the Amana as they exist today, prior to losing their civilization and during their time in captivity might have been bread for "specialization" and the population hasn't had time to diversify.
3. Their reputation as healers makes them invaluable, so they have emphasized that as it increases their chances of survival especially given their lackluster ability to fight. The Splugorth will pay a 2d6 million credits for one of them and can get 3x that when the resell them.

MyDumpStatIsMA wrote:Because large swathes of the game revolve around combat? And it's boring to play through these portions of a story with very little to do. And, while there are plenty of characters who can't fight well, as I've said, they can typically do something else well.

And why can't the Amana just be considered one of those characters who can't fight well? Nothing really stops an Amana from engaging in combat, but they A) don't like it, B) are adamantly bad at it, and C) based on skill availability aren't very proficient at it.

MyDumpStatIsMA wrote:Amana's going to have awful initiative. This is something that even a Mystic OCC can compensate for in a variety of ways.

So, what if their Initiative is going to be awful. I took a look at the OCCs in RUE, and Cyber-Doc nor the Bodyfixer (both classes similar in roles) don't get any initiative bonus, nor do other classes in the book.

MyDumpStatIsMA wrote:Beyond playing devil's advocate, I don't understand why you're arguing that the Amana isn't as weak as it looks. The only way to make 99% of OCCs/RCCs this weak, is to intentionally not choose physical and combat skills. That's fine, because you get a choice. What makes the Amana a poor design, is that you don't get the choice.

As the above list shows there are races in the same boat as the Amana, possibly even worse, that cannot take Physical Skills and/or WPs as Related Skills. Which isn't exactly true, since per RUE all secondary skills use a master list (pg300) which would grant them a wider selection of skills than their Related lists would otherwise indicate given:
-they now have access to Computer Repair and Automotive Mechanics
-they now have access to a few more Modern WP than before

What I don't see a need for is every character (be it based on class or race) to be good in combat. Amana aren't great at combat, but nothing stops them (and lots of other examples) from actually fighting. Sure, they aren't the best at it, but there is no objective requirement for them to be the best at it. That just means the player is going to have to find ways to compensate by either finding creative applications of skills/abilities they can use AND/OR search out equipment to make them better at it AND/OR find ways to avoid conflict.
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Re: How to make Amana RCC useful?

Unread post by MyDumpStatIsMA »

ShadowLogan wrote:
What I don't see a need for is every character (be it based on class or race) to be good in combat. Amana aren't great at combat, but nothing stops them (and lots of other examples) from actually fighting. Sure, they aren't the best at it, but there is no objective requirement for them to be the best at it. That just means the player is going to have to find ways to compensate by either finding creative applications of skills/abilities they can use AND/OR search out equipment to make them better at it AND/OR find ways to avoid conflict.


It's not just about combat. As I already explained in previous posts, and in my opening post, what they're lacking is the ability to do much, if anything, useful for their team; aside from medical/scientific skills/abilities, the vast majority of which other OCCs and RCCs can approximate without being equally useless in other areas.

As I said, the ability to use psionics (besides healing psionics, which, again, are mostly redundant with the main healing abilities), or magic, would allow the Amana to non-violently help teammates during a fight.

Or, to contribute to non-combat scenarios using psionics from the Sensitive category. Or by using utility magic spells.

A good example of how to construct a pacifist D-Bee can be found in the same book as the Amana. The Fennodi are also pacifists, but have abilities and skill selection that would allow them to A) help the group, not necessarily during combat, and B) not feel useless when their 'signature ability' wasn't in play.

I like the concept of a passive, non-violent class; just not the way the Amana does it.
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Re: How to make Amana RCC useful?

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Fenris2020 wrote:Use them as chum for sharks, along with floopers.


Actually, Floopers have more practical value than Amana.

Floopers can take any Espionage and Rogue skill, for example. They could make for decent scouts, besides the expected thief/spy role mentioned in the book.
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Re: How to make Amana RCC useful?

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Curbludgeon wrote:I don't know. No one is going to claim that the Mystic class is in itself munchkin, nor that an Amana with the abilities of a Mystic is an over-the-top concept for a HU Mega-Hero. There's probably some lesser version of such where the Amana can cast Carpet of Adhesion and Exorcism or whatever which would satisfy most players.


That's all I'm really asking for: the ability to do anything useful in between re-attaching severed limbs. And I don't define usefulness as having some mostly redundant medical skills and psionic healing on top of the main healing abilities. The Amana is layer-upon-layer of redundancy.

What's annoying to me, is how many psionic healers can start off at level 1 with all/most of the healing category available to choose from, and these same healers also have access to decent OCC special abilities, combat abilities, physical skills, or general skills.

Just off the top of my head:

A Mind Melter can heal or do psychic surgery at level 1. A Mystic can. A Psi-Druid. Gypsy Gifted. A Coalition Manhunter Viper OCC has all healing psionics, plus can bring back the recently deceased, plus has about two dozen other skills/abilities, AND has extensive combat abilities. Several classes from Japan and China combine mystical (psionic, more or less) healing with great physical ability.

Or, you could just take any character you roll up, get a major psychic, choose 8 healing abilities, then go on to pick any OCC your attributes allow.

Meanwhile, try to make a healer mage at level 1, and....

Best option I can think of: making a Shifter with a link to a magic god, then picking 8 healing spells from levels 3-13. Magic healing--both self-healing and of others--remains quite weak until level 5, with the first useful self-heal coming at level 7. It doesn't start getting good until level 8 and beyond.

High Magus starts off with a few good healing spells, but has nothing for disease. I would rather go the Shifter route, since that gives you much better selection.

It's just weird how restrictive healing magic is versus psionic, especially for starting characters. The paucity of low-level magic healing was why I (initially) became interested in the Amana. Then I started to read the fine print.
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Re: How to make Amana RCC useful?

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Okay, I think I found a loophole. It's not too ridiculous.

I noticed that Archery WP is pretty generous in terms of quickly gaining bonuses. Then I got to thinking about non-violent takedown methods, disarming chances, etc. Eventually settled on trick arrows.

If you combine Entomological Medicine (which explicitly mentions deriving chemical compounds from insects) with Jury-Rig, along with the Northern Gun mega crossbow (which already has smoke arrows, tracker arrows, flares, etc), I think a simple trick arrow goes something like this:

The Spinne (same book as Amana, WB30) have a paralyzing neurotoxin and a web attack. Pretend our intrepid Amana healer treats a Spinne one day, and in exchange for removing his appendix or whatever, gets some silk and toxin samples. The Spinne's grateful to be alive, doesn't really care what the Amana's going to do with said samples. Well, the Amana is able to synthesize the toxin and web, using Entomological Medicine + Chemistry. He can then rig up some trick arrows with Jury-Rig, and voila, we have a crappy Hawkeye ripoff.

Every successful arrow attack with a particular arrow results in the same effects found in the Spinne's description. The chemical loads in each arrow head are too small to be AoE, so it's direct hit or nothing. The arrows do zero MDC damage. If they hit somebody unarmored, they might leave an SDC bruise. The toxin will paralyze anybody who isn't wearing EBA or a mask, while the webbing will work against anything that isn't too strong to immediately break out of it.

Some other character notes: Expert HtoH skill. Entomological Medicine and Jury-Rig take up the remaining 2 RCC skills, leaving only 4 secondaries. WP Archery, WP Quick Draw, Basic Electronics/Mechanics finish those out. Oh, almost forgot: you get the choice of two Domestic skills, so I took Recycle twice, as I figure that fits with Jury-Rig and the general character concept.

With 18 PP (the max possible for Amana), Quick Draw grants +2 initiative. At level 2 Expert HtoH, I'll get +3 to dodge and parry. If I didn't take Expert and had only Basic plus General Athletics, it'd come out the same at level 2. But Expert has more long-term value.

Between the Spinne stuff and regular utility arrows, I can kinda-sorta emulate the abilities of a low-level mage. Still can't do anything about the 4 wasted psionic healing choices, however. I picked Suppress Fear for one, as that's broadly useful.
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Re: How to make Amana RCC useful?

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MyDumpStatIsMA wrote:It's not just about combat. As I already explained in previous posts, and in my opening post, what they're lacking is the ability to do much, if anything, useful for their team; aside from medical/scientific skills/abilities, the vast majority of which other OCCs and RCCs can approximate without being equally useless in other areas.

You have a pretty narrow definition of "useful" for skills given looking at a combined Related/Secondary Skill list:
Communication: Any, which would include Cryptography (code breaker), Barter (trading), Radio Basic, and ECM (jamming enemy communications and sensors, potentially useful). Never mind the 100+ language/literacy options I could list
Cowboy: None, which isn't unusual
Domestic: Any, and they start with 2 and can upgrade these skills to "pro".
Electrical: Basic and Computer Repair only. Not unusual IMHO.
Espionage: None. Not unusual.
Horsemanship: General. Not unusual per say, most here are "specialist" skills. Exotic might be helpful, but General can do it at penalty, and it provides your all important combat bonuses (not as good as the specialists)
Mechanical: Basic & Auto. Not unusual, limited maybe but not unusual in this regard
Medical: Any, which is potentially useful to the group since this is usually a category that is limited
Military: Camoflauge and Recognize Weapon Quality, two skills that could be potentially useful
Physical: Related wise they do not have any, but in terms of Secondary Skills they have 4 (non-HTH) skills that provide your all important combat bonuses
Pilot: Can not pilot dedicated military pilot skills or 'bots & PA, but otherwise have a decent selection which could include Combat Driving (which isn't a military skill per say IMHO)
Pilot Related: Can take any, which means RSI, Weapon Systems, and Navigation. Two of which have direct combat potential.
Rogue: Gambling only, Prowl would be nice I admit (not available via Physical eiter) so a potential liability when stealth is required
Science: Any, which most Men@Arms-classes won't be able to do (pretty much Math only). Anthropology is a skill that could be useful (knowing other peoples customs could avoid a conflict). So could Zoology (lots of data on animals, including alien ones) and Xenobiology
Technical: Any, you have an assortment of non-combat skills of use including Lore. Jury-Rig is available (A-Team up a vehicle if need be or Macgyver up a electrical/mechanical fix, though they need to take Basic Mechanics and Electronics together to take this skill), Firefighting is potentially useful.
WP (A): Any
WP (M): Rifle and Pistol (Energy and Regular)
Wilderness: Any. So Dowsing, ID Plants & Fruits, Track & Trap Animals, Spelunking, and Wilderness Survival could not be useful to a group of adventurers out in the wild?

So yes they can be potential useful to a team outside of just healing, unless you think the only "useful" skills are Mechanical, Electrical, Espionage, Physical, Rogue, and Military. Some of that utility maybe situational, and knowing those skills are in use could allow the GM to add other types of "encounters" that don't require straightup combat (and might even allow one to avoid combat).

Picking a few random RCC in WB30 (that aren't "fighter" based) to compare skill availability at least suggests the limitations above aren't unusual (and in some cases not that bad):
-the Cactus People turn out largely similar to the Amana above, though don't have any Pilot or WP: Modern restrictions (possibly due to being reprint)
-the Posluznik they have some options they Amana doesn't, but overall not that big a difference
-Loronoid can not take any Related Skills, they have just their main RCC and Secondary Skills. Which means outside of the RCC Skills, they are pretty limited in what they can contribute.
-Forest Warden's are limited to only 5 Skill Categories: Comm, Domestic, Technical, Wilderness, and WP (all Any). They can't even get around that limit using Secondary Skills.
-Dirari Ecto-men have full access to the Secondary Skill List, but outside of that they can only pick from Comm, Domestic, Espionage, Rogue, Technical, and WP categories.

MyDumpStatIsMA wrote:As I said, the ability to use psionics (besides healing psionics, which, again, are mostly redundant with the main healing abilities), or magic, would allow the Amana to non-violently help teammates during a fight.

Or, to contribute to non-combat scenarios using psionics from the Sensitive category. Or by using utility magic spells.

Except they can contribute outside of combat. There is no need to give them additional Psionics or Utility Magic. Their natuarl Empathic Ability can function as a lie-detector. They can take Suppress Fear to make teammate immune to Horror Factor for a short time (1min per level) casting it just before entering a creature with HF's lair, the Psi Power of Restore PPE could help "refresh" a mage who is running "low".

As for combat, I would say that can contribute even non-violently in combat with the right skills and in some situations:
-Anthropology could allow you to end a fight with a "tribe" and make amends
-ECM could disrupt an opponent from being able to call for backup, you could also break their scrambled messages
-Piloting to draw fire away (since they don't have to attack, they can concentrate on Dodging and otherwise being hard to hit in a vehicle)
-Pilot Related and Radio allow them to act as a secondary crewmember on a multi-crew vehicle/'bot (allowing it to operate at full) as there are non-combat stations (Radio/Comm, they could also act as pilot leaving attacks to a gunner)
-Lore and Zoology could also be helpful in providing information to teammates to be more effective
-given their PSI restrictions to Healing Category, they could have Exorsim (allowing them to deal with a possessed individual)
-use singing skill to boost morale and such (Megaversally 2E Robotech Masters SourceBook and Macross2 both introduced "song bonuses", no rules per say for generic songs but...) or even distract them (Robotech/Macross's Minimei Attack)
-various skills are available to make fire/smoke I would think (weather the right materials are at hand is another matter)
-if they have the Dog skill, they could have "Attack" Dogs they could be directing
-computer skills could allow them to control drones in a number of roles
-they might have time to use Recognize Weapon Quality (at a distance), possibly in conjunction with other skills (like Optics) to make an assessment. They might spot issues with the opponents weapons they could use to assist their teammates.
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