Bio-Regeneration (Super) & Organs/limbs

[Questara]

This has come up several times over the decades I have been playing and GMing. Can Bio-regeneration (Super) restore missing organs and/or limbs? Now the minor power of Bio-regeneration specifically states that limbs cannot be restored, but the Super psionic ability only mentions no scarring.
The main argument for it is that it doesn't say it can't unlike the minor power.
I've looked around and not found a definitive answer on this.
Any thoughts?

[darthauthor]

Good Question.

I like Rifts.

I sometimes dislike how the books word things. The ambiguity leaves me guessing.

As someone had posted on the forum before, I read their post, "don't make a one way ruling."

So if the players can do it the villains can do it too. And vice versa. So the villain of the week didn't die after they lost their arm. Instead they are back because they had Bio-Regeneration Super. That's how they came back next week.

Generally when it is NOT a combat thing that can kill or incapacite you opponent without at least a dodge or saving through for the unwilling I entertain it. 9 out of 10 times I say YES.

I'd just look for an "How could they abuse this?"

I'd say I'd limit it to the psychic performing it so the could not restore anyone elses limbs.

I debate if the psychic had to have the limb they lost or regrown a new one. I think I'd say they could regrown an entirely new limb but if they wanted the old one that could work too.

The minor power of Bio-regeneration is great as it does so much to remedy the psychic of disease and poison, and restore SDC/Hit Points.

The Version of it that is a Super Power. I feel is UNDER powered if it only does the same thing you can do by repeated using the minor power of Bio-regeneration. Like, why ever pic Bio-Regen Super if I could just use miner and get the same result (it just takes more time).

So as a GM. IF the player lost a limb. Being psychic they did not want to deminish their powers by having cybernetics and didn't want to wait or spend the money for bio-systems I'd ALLOW it to restore their limbs.

It is not winning the battle for the player character, it is getting them back in the adventure.

I DON'T want my players to give up or to feel like they have to roll a new one (especially because of a missing limb).

I see a lot of Major psychics as less powerful than spell casters with the exception be a few powers and even then only at higher levels. Having this unique power to retore their limbs is "Game On." I like that.

My OPINION and decision as a GM would be to try it and see. Let the player use Bio-regeneration SUPER restore limbs and see what happens.

Rifts already has supernatural beings who regenerate (Demons & Dragons) so I feel it is NOT a thing that would get abused in a way that would derail the game. In fact, it is the opposite, if it means the character's regrown arm and/or leg makes it so they are ready to get back into the game.

GO FOR IT!

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

After doing some healing research lately, I would say that no psionic healing ability can regrow limbs. Unless it's part of a special RCC/OCC ability that explicitly says it can.

My logic in this determination is by no means unassailable. I'm not an expert by any means. That said, limb regrowth is limited to only the most powerful, expensive (PPE cost), and high-level, magic spells.

If psionic healers could regrow limbs at level 1--or level 4 or whenever a given class can pick its first super psionic--for relatively tiny amounts of ISP, it would totally fly in the face of any semblance of balance that magic healing abides by.

Granted, super psionic bio-regen is limited to self, while magic spells that regrow limbs are limited to 'other' only, so there is that distinction. I don't think it should matter, though. Regenerating limbs/organs is something that is seemingly meant to be restricted to either very high level spells, or very specialized healer OCCs/RCCs.

[Fenris2020]

I'd say that Super-Regeneration can regrow stuff; regular Regeneration psionic will allow you to re-attach a limb and have it function fully again after the damage is healed (ie, you're at full HP/ SDC).

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

regular Regeneration psionic will allow you to re-attach a limb and have it function fully again after the damage is healed (ie, you're at full HP/ SDC).

Where's this written? It's not in the RUE ability description.

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

Just for some magical healing context, the spell that allows you to re-attach a recently severed limb is a level 10.

At level 14, Restoration also allows re-attachment of a recently severed limb.

Only level 15 Ley Line Restoration (the spell that requires a permanent loss of PPE for both the caster and recipient) can regrow long-lost limbs and organs. That is, to my knowledge, the only (basic invocation) healing spell that specifically allows organs to be regenerated.

The other limb-regrowth option comes from the Amana RCC's special abilities.

In both cases (Amana and Ley Line Restoration), the background information seemingly implies that regenerating limbs/organs is exceptionally rare.

So that would be at odds with, say, a level 4 Mystic OCC just being able to casually regrow a blown-off leg with Bio-Regen (Super).

I think Bio-Regen's ability to re-attach (not grow) limbs would be a GM call, predicated on the same things that limit magic spell healing. How recent was the severing, and how clean was it? Depending on the weapon type that did the damage, the muscles, bone, and nerves might be too far gone to properly re-integrate with the body.

I'd also say that to properly re-attach, the severed limb would first need to be surgically attached to the body. The difference between regular and super Bio-Regen could involve the time since injury (Super allowing maybe a few days, while regular only minutes/hours) and the level of injury (clean or messy).

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

Okay, I finally found some pertinent info on psychic healing, to compare apples to apples.

Spirit West (WB15) has the Healer Shaman OCC. It's considered (next to the Gypsy Gifted) among the world's most powerful psionic healers.

In order to regenerate lost limbs, the following must occur:

Shaman needs to use a Medicine Lodge. He gets access to one of these at level 2, and he must be (or know another Shaman who is) level 5 to conduct the ritual.

With an 80% chance of success, it takes 300 ISP to regenerate a small (ear, finger, whole hand or foot, etc) body part. 500 ISP is required for a whole arm, leg, limb. Organs aren't mentioned, but I would have to think they're doable. The ISP values typically require several high-level Shamans to attend the ritual and combine their pools.

Anyway. This is the most powerful (human) psychic healer in the world, and you see the conditions needed for him to go about regenerating stuff. It's clearly meant to be locked behind a pretty high 'difficulty wall'.

This is why it strikes me as implausible that Super Bio-Regen can regrow limbs for 20 ISP.

I think the only reason the Super is called Super, is that it's a relatively powerful self-heal that can be accessed at low levels. And it doesn't weaken the user the same way regular Bio-Regen does. I think it really is that simple. It doesn't suddenly mean psionics are salamanders who regrow limbs and organs at will.

If you compare Super Bio-Regen to the magic spell counterpart, Heal Self (level 7), the psionic heal is more powerful. And more than a few psionic characters can get access to it faster and easier than most magic users can get level 7 spells.

Regular Bio-Regen being available to almost any psychic OCC at level 1 is also a big advantage over magic users. These are already powerful enough abilities without making them ridiculous by giving them advantages they aren't explicitly listed as having.

[eliakon]

My take is that unless something says it replaces lost organs and limbs...it doesn't

[Quentin Harlech]

Simple answer: If powers or spells like that could do so, it would render Bio-System replacements pretty much useless, and there wouldn't need to be so many comments/rules on their impact on psychics and magicians in the first place. The assumption would be that they'd the readily available powers/spells instead.

[Fenris2020]

regular Regeneration psionic will allow you to re-attach a limb and have it function fully again after the damage is healed (ie, you're at full HP/ SDC).

Where's this written? It's not in the RUE ability description.

Doesn't say it doesn't, either, which is why I prefaced it with, "I'd say..."

[ShadowLogan]

regular Regeneration psionic will allow you to re-attach a limb and have it function fully again after the damage is healed (ie, you're at full HP/ SDC).

Where's this written? It's not in the RUE ability description.

Doesn't say it doesn't, either, which is why I prefaced it with, "I'd say..."

Personally I don't have a problem with the concept of a psionic ability being used to reattached a severed limb, though to be honest I would go with something like Psychic Surgery for the actual reattachment (and use Bio-Regeneration/Healing Touch to speedup recovery). But that's just me.

Though aside from speed, Bio-Regeneration (Super) doesn't really have any real advantages over Regular Bio-Regeneration. For 20ISP you get 4d6 HP and 4d6SDC, compared to 3x castings of Regular at 6ISP (18ISP total), you get 4d6HP and 3d6SDC. So if you have the time Regular Bio-Regeneration appears to be superior, though I could see allowing it to reattach limbs or transplant new organ/limbs as a house rule to give the power some reason for existing.

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

regular Regeneration psionic will allow you to re-attach a limb and have it function fully again after the damage is healed (ie, you're at full HP/ SDC).

Where's this written? It's not in the RUE ability description.

Doesn't say it doesn't, either, which is why I prefaced it with, "I'd say..."

But you said regular Bio-regen allows for re-attachment as if it's a fact. And from that fact, you extrapolated that Super could regen limbs. I'm saying that the former claim isn't necessarily a fact.

I'm not trying to be a hardass with the rules, it just strikes me as excessively liberal to interpret these low-level, low-cost abilities as being every bit the equals of far more expensive abilities. Might not be breaking the letter of the 'law', but it's certainly breaking the spirit of it.

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

Personally I don't have a problem with the concept of a psionic ability being used to reattached a severed limb, though to be honest I would go with something like Psychic Surgery for the actual reattachment (and use Bio-Regeneration/Healing Touch to speedup recovery). But that's just me.

Though aside from speed, Bio-Regeneration (Super) doesn't really have any real advantages over Regular Bio-Regeneration. For 20ISP you get 4d6 HP and 4d6SDC, compared to 3x castings of Regular at 6ISP (18ISP total), you get 4d6HP and 3d6SDC. So if you have the time Regular Bio-Regeneration appears to be superior, though I could see allowing it to reattach limbs or transplant new organ/limbs as a house rule to give the power some reason for existing.

I don't have a problem with psychic surgery re-attachment if it's a clean severing (by a sword, say), and it's done within a few hours of the severing. Anything else is just up to GM discretion and/or common sense.

Regrowth is another matter entirely, however.

As for regular versus super Bio-Regen, regular doesn't allow HP and SDC healing at the same time. It's one or the other. Only Super does both at the same time.

[ShadowLogan]

As for regular versus super Bio-Regen, regular doesn't allow HP and SDC healing at the same time. It's one or the other. Only Super does both at the same time.

In terms of ISP to d6 Healing Ratio:
Bio-Reg x1 just for HP has a ratio of 3
Bio-Reg x1 just for SDC has a ratio of 2
Bio-Reg x3 for 2x HP and 1x SDC has a ratio of 2.57 (2.25 if SDC/HP castings qty are swapped)
Bio-Reg x4 for 2x HP and 2x SDC has a ratio of 2.4 (2.18 if 1/3 HP/SDC or 6 if all 4 are SDC or 9 if all 4 are HP)
Bio-Reg Super x1 has a ratio of 2.5

This means that in terms of bulk healing regular Bio-Regen is more efficient IF you have the time to invest in multiple castings.

[darthauthor]

Shadow Logan

I like the way you think

[Fenris2020]

regular Regeneration psionic will allow you to re-attach a limb and have it function fully again after the damage is healed (ie, you're at full HP/ SDC).

Where's this written? It's not in the RUE ability description.

Doesn't say it doesn't, either, which is why I prefaced it with, "I'd say..."

But you said regular Bio-regen allows for re-attachment as if it's a fact. And from that fact, you extrapolated that Super could regen limbs. I'm saying that the former claim isn't necessarily a fact.

I'm not trying to be a hardass with the rules, it just strikes me as excessively liberal to interpret these low-level, low-cost abilities as being every bit the equals of far more expensive abilities. Might not be breaking the letter of the 'law', but it's certainly breaking the spirit of it.

That's nice.
Although, beings/ creatures with Bio-regeneration also grow back limbs and so on.
Therefore, it's a logical deduction. Particularly since it only effects the psychic in question, not another subject.

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

This means that in terms of bulk healing regular Bio-Regen is more efficient IF you have the time to invest in multiple castings.

And if you don't mind having the substantial penalty that comes from healing half or more of your SDC with regular Bio-Regen. It's not about time as much as the penalty; since neither ability allows you to heal in the middle of combat, both require you to essentially run away and hide somewhere for a few minutes.

Super Bio-Regen allows you to be down to one HP, zero SDC, and cast it as many times as necessary to completely replenish both, with no penalty.

It's undeniably inferior to regular Bio-Regen in other respects. If you have 100 SDC max, and are down to 51, then the smart choice would be to use regular BR instead of Super. Only reason to use Super is when you're almost dead.

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

Although, beings/ creatures with Bio-regeneration also grow back limbs and so on.
Therefore, it's a logical deduction. Particularly since it only effects the psychic in question, not another subject.

Okay, legitimate question, not rhetorical:

Why doesn't either description of Bio-Regen mention MDC amounts recovered?

This is, in my mind anyway, an important distinction. Because with magic healing, there's a clear boundary between spells that heal SDC and ones that heal MDC. The lower level heals don't mention MDC restoration at all, while the higher (7+) do; but even then, it's a measly 1d4, i.e, much less than it heals of SDC/HP. This includes self heals and other heals. The only magic spell that's explicitly made for MDC beings, heals 4d6 MDC for a 70 PPE cost, and it can't be used on SDC creatures.

I'm thinking that Bio-Regen works differently for MDC versus SDC beings. It's not just a regular psionic power selection when you're an MDC being, but something specific to MDC beings; the alternative being an SDC creature that has regeneration as a 'racial trait' (certain reptilian D-Bees, Cactus people, etc).

[eliakon]

regular Regeneration psionic will allow you to re-attach a limb and have it function fully again after the damage is healed (ie, you're at full HP/ SDC).

Where's this written? It's not in the RUE ability description.

Doesn't say it doesn't, either, which is why I prefaced it with, "I'd say..."

But you said regular Bio-regen allows for re-attachment as if it's a fact. And from that fact, you extrapolated that Super could regen limbs. I'm saying that the former claim isn't necessarily a fact.

I'm not trying to be a hardass with the rules, it just strikes me as excessively liberal to interpret these low-level, low-cost abilities as being every bit the equals of far more expensive abilities. Might not be breaking the letter of the 'law', but it's certainly breaking the spirit of it.

That's nice.
Although, beings/ creatures with Bio-regeneration also grow back limbs and so on.
Therefore, it's a logical deduction. Particularly since it only effects the psychic in question, not another subject.

Its not really a good fit though.
I find it *highly* unlikely that you can grow back limbs in BTS as that would be a classic case of "proof"
Its also telling that not everything with bio-regenerations *does* grow back limbs and organs and that the creatures that can do so are all supernatural beings/CoM *and get that ability mentioned* which if that was the default for all self healing wouldnt.

Looking at the history of the setting, "I can heal my self" is a core power that has been in the games since the begining.
But "if you lose a limb its hard to get back" has also been a factor

[eliakon]

Although, beings/ creatures with Bio-regeneration also grow back limbs and so on.
Therefore, it's a logical deduction. Particularly since it only effects the psychic in question, not another subject.

Okay, legitimate question, not rhetorical:

Why doesn't either description of Bio-Regen mention MDC amounts recovered?

This is, in my mind anyway, an important distinction. Because with magic healing, there's a clear boundary between spells that heal SDC and ones that heal MDC. The lower level heals don't mention MDC restoration at all, while the higher (7+) do; but even then, it's a measly 1d4, i.e, much less than it heals of SDC/HP. This includes self heals and other heals. The only magic spell that's explicitly made for MDC beings, heals 4d6 MDC for a 70 PPE cost, and it can't be used on SDC creatures.

I'm thinking that Bio-Regen works differently for MDC versus SDC beings. It's not just a regular psionic power selection when you're an MDC being, but something specific to MDC beings; the alternative being an SDC creature that has regeneration as a 'racial trait' (certain reptilian D-Bees, Cactus people, etc).

Part of it is that most of this is just cut and paste from the old SDC books.
But there are a couple of mentions in a few places to suggest that MDC beings heal MDC as per the SDC healed

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

Part of it is that most of this is just cut and paste from the old SDC books.
But there are a couple of mentions in a few places to suggest that MDC beings heal MDC as per the SDC healed

Right, but as I said, there are a few mid-level spells that show their MDC healing ability is far weaker than their SDC potential. Even Atlantean tattoo magic healing, which is demi-godly, has some limitations.

For example, the Bio-Regen tattoo (Rose Encircling a Heart), appears to be similar to psionic Bio-Regen, except for a few key differences. First: it explicitly mentions the amount of MDC it recovers, along with SDC and HP; and Second: it costs 50 PPE versus Super-BR's 20 ISP. It's clearly (much) more expensive because it can recover a decent chunk of MDC in a minute. Any spell/ability that recovers MDC is typically more expensive than an SDC counterpart.

Even with that extra cost, however, the description still doesn't go out of its way to mention limb regrowth.

The most powerful MDC heal I've seen is the magic tattoo of 'Phoenix Rising From the Flames' (Resurrection). For 124 PPE, it 'super-heals' 50 HP and 50 SDC, or 100 MDC. The first part of the description mentions all the stuff the 'super-heal' does. It does not mention limb regeneration.

Only for the second portion of the ability, resurrection, does it say limbs and organs come back. However, each time you cast resurrection (not the super-heal), you permanently lose 1d6 HP/MDC, 2d6 PPE, and a point of PE.

This is similar to the permanent penalty incurred by the other limb/organ regrowth spell I know of, Ley Line Restoration. And that requires 400-800 PPE (depending on caster class), a blood sacrifice, performing the spell on a nexus, AND a very large, permanent loss of PPE for both the caster and recipient.

So the trend here, as I see it: regrowing limbs/organs is reserved for very powerful mages, Atlanteans, dedicated healer OCCs/RCCs like the Amana and Healer Shaman; or is limited by race/magical origins.

I do not consider a level 4 Mystic (with Super Bio-Regen) any of the above. It doesn't matter whether the regrowth is self or other-oriented. It's just not supposed to be that commonplace or accessible to your average Joe Schmoe.

And a level 4 Mystic is very, very average.

[ShadowLogan]

This means that in terms of bulk healing regular Bio-Regen is more efficient IF you have the time to invest in multiple castings.

And if you don't mind having the substantial penalty that comes from healing half or more of your SDC with regular Bio-Regen. It's not about time as much as the penalty; since neither ability allows you to heal in the middle of combat, both require you to essentially run away and hide somewhere for a few minutes.

Super Bio-Regen allows you to be down to one HP, zero SDC, and cast it as many times as necessary to completely replenish both, with no penalty.

It's undeniably inferior to regular Bio-Regen in other respects. If you have 100 SDC max, and are down to 51, then the smart choice would be to use regular BR instead of Super. Only reason to use Super is when you're almost dead.

That is just another long winded way of saying regular Bio-Regen is superior if you have the time to invest.

The penalties you speak of (and are new as of RUE) can be avoided by taking more time (they only kick in if you heal to much in 1hour, so if you can spread it out over a larger time frame you can avoid them). And depending on how the GM interprets the penalties, they might be negated (temporarily) via use of other psychic powers (Resist Fatigue and/or Summon Inner Strength), a GM might also interpret them to apply to Superior and not just Regular.

Time is the only real advantage Bio-Reg Super has over regular Bio-Regen, you can do it more frequently (1x per minute vs 1x per 2minutes even w/o the penalty issue).

But there are a couple of mentions in a few places to suggest that MDC beings heal MDC as per the SDC healed

There are also examples of flatout MDC regeneration rates for specific creatures (and IIRC there might even be a generic rate).

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

That is just another long winded way of saying regular Bio-Regen is superior if you have the time to invest.

The penalties you speak of (and are new as of RUE) can be avoided by taking more time (they only kick in if you heal to much in 1hour, so if you can spread it out over a larger time frame you can avoid them). And depending on how the GM interprets the penalties, they might be negated (temporarily) via use of other psychic powers (Resist Fatigue and/or Summon Inner Strength), a GM might also interpret them to apply to Superior and not just Regular.

Time is the only real advantage Bio-Reg Super has over regular Bio-Regen, you can do it more frequently (1x per minute vs 1x per 2minutes even w/o the penalty issue).

I wouldn't accuse somebody of being long-winded, after the novels you posted in the Amana thread....

Anyway, it's not pertinent that the changes to Bio-Regen only happened in RUE. It's been published for almost 20 years. I think that's long enough for the 'new' rules to sink in. The fact that they changed regular BR at all indicates very plainly that they wanted to differentiate its usage from Super-BR. One is cheap and meant to be a gradual heal, while the other is costly and only for emergencies.

Regular BR is still way, way better than magic self-healing at low levels. It combines healing with disease/toxin purge, for 6 ISP. I don't see why we should make it even better, even temporarily, by negating the penalty. The penalty was probably assessed as fair, because regular Bio-Regen was overpowered for its cost and availability. I mean, almost any OCC can be rolled up as a minor psychic and given regular BR.

[eliakon]

That is just another long winded way of saying regular Bio-Regen is superior if you have the time to invest.

The penalties you speak of (and are new as of RUE) can be avoided by taking more time (they only kick in if you heal to much in 1hour, so if you can spread it out over a larger time frame you can avoid them). And depending on how the GM interprets the penalties, they might be negated (temporarily) via use of other psychic powers (Resist Fatigue and/or Summon Inner Strength), a GM might also interpret them to apply to Superior and not just Regular.

Time is the only real advantage Bio-Reg Super has over regular Bio-Regen, you can do it more frequently (1x per minute vs 1x per 2minutes even w/o the penalty issue).

I wouldn't accuse somebody of being long-winded, after the novels you posted in the Amana thread....

Anyway, it's not pertinent that the changes to Bio-Regen only happened in RUE. It's been published for almost 20 years. I think that's long enough for the 'new' rules to sink in. The fact that they changed regular BR at all indicates very plainly that they wanted to differentiate its usage from Super-BR. One is cheap and meant to be a gradual heal, while the other is costly and only for emergencies.

Regular BR is still way, way better than magic self-healing at low levels. It combines healing with disease/toxin purge, for 6 ISP. I don't see why we should make it even better, even temporarily, by negating the penalty. The penalty was probably assessed as fair, because regular Bio-Regen was overpowered for its cost and availability. I mean, almost any OCC can be rolled up as a minor psychic and given regular BR.

To be fair the change only applies to Rifts.
The other game lines have the older versions of Bio-Regeneration with out the limitations of RUE.

[eliakon]

But there are a couple of mentions in a few places to suggest that MDC beings heal MDC as per the SDC healed

There are also examples of flatout MDC regeneration rates for specific creatures (and IIRC there might even be a generic rate).

That isn't the psionic power though.

[Fenris2020]

Part of it is that most of this is just cut and paste from the old SDC books.
But there are a couple of mentions in a few places to suggest that MDC beings heal MDC as per the SDC healed

Right, but as I said, there are a few mid-level spells that show their MDC healing ability is far weaker than their SDC potential. Even Atlantean tattoo magic healing, which is demi-godly, has some limitations.

For example, the Bio-Regen tattoo (Rose Encircling a Heart), appears to be similar to psionic Bio-Regen, except for a few key differences. First: it explicitly mentions the amount of MDC it recovers, along with SDC and HP; and Second: it costs 50 PPE versus Super-BR's 20 ISP. It's clearly (much) more expensive because it can recover a decent chunk of MDC in a minute. Any spell/ability that recovers MDC is typically more expensive than an SDC counterpart.

Even with that extra cost, however, the description still doesn't go out of its way to mention limb regrowth.

The most powerful MDC heal I've seen is the magic tattoo of 'Phoenix Rising From the Flames' (Resurrection). For 124 PPE, it 'super-heals' 50 HP and 50 SDC, or 100 MDC. The first part of the description mentions all the stuff the 'super-heal' does. It does not mention limb regeneration.

Only for the second portion of the ability, resurrection, does it say limbs and organs come back. However, each time you cast resurrection (not the super-heal), you permanently lose 1d6 HP/MDC, 2d6 PPE, and a point of PE.

This is similar to the permanent penalty incurred by the other limb/organ regrowth spell I know of, Ley Line Restoration. And that requires 400-800 PPE (depending on caster class), a blood sacrifice, performing the spell on a nexus, AND a very large, permanent loss of PPE for both the caster and recipient.

So the trend here, as I see it: regrowing limbs/organs is reserved for very powerful mages, Atlanteans, dedicated healer OCCs/RCCs like the Amana and Healer Shaman; or is limited by race/magical origins.

I do not consider a level 4 Mystic (with Super Bio-Regen) any of the above. It doesn't matter whether the regrowth is self or other-oriented. It's just not supposed to be that commonplace or accessible to your average Joe Schmoe.

And a level 4 Mystic is very, very average.

A Mystic of any level is anything BUT average.
Even just looking at it percentage-wise for psionics, without the magic added in, it isn't that common. Now add in the magical ability. I'd be surprised if one in a thousand mages altogether would be a Mystic.

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

A Mystic of any level is anything BUT average.
Even just looking at it percentage-wise for psionics, without the magic added in, it isn't that common. Now add in the magical ability. I'd be surprised if one in a thousand mages altogether would be a Mystic.

Was referring to their relative power levels and what can be expected of the class. Though as far as commonality goes, the Federation of Magic book makes them seem pretty common in Dweomer. Mentioned as such in the same breath as Ley Line Walkers.

In terms of power, the Mystic rates very low compared to most average mage OCCs, as it can't be taught spells and must wait to level up to get anything new. Nor can it learn anything above its level (after level 4 or whatever).

Its psionic ability is merely major, not master (in Rifts, anyway), and its psionic selection is quite limited in general. It has never been considered a powerhouse OCC, so that's why it's hard to imagine it regrowing a leg just because it has access to Super Bio-Regen at level 4.

You're also avoiding the point, which is that every time regeneration of a limb/organ is mentioned with extremely powerful, high-level abilities, it involves the permanent sacrifice of stats, or some other convoluted and difficult ritual. Or being an Amana RCC, which is a fate worse than death.

Allowing anybody with access to a single Super psionic ability to regenerate limbs/organs, absolutely trivializes those high-end, costly, abilities.

Imagine the following scene:

*level 4 Mystic loses both legs to a particle beam attack--legs are misted completely off at the hip*

"Don't worry, everyone, I'm a Mystic! I've got this!"

*Concentrates real hard, spends 20 ISP, both legs are re-formed and functional after 1 minute*

How quickly would a leg grow back, using Super Bio-Regen, anyway? Even house rules need to be defined.

[eliakon]

I would also point out that many demons and such have bio-regneration.
But that the ability to regrow eyes/limbs is a separate ability that is called out when it exists.
This is for example the canonical reason that broadkill can get cybernetics...

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

I would also point out that many demons and such have bio-regneration.
But that the ability to regrow eyes/limbs is a separate ability that is called out when it exists.
This is for example the canonical reason that broadkill can get cybernetics...

There's a reference to supernatural creature healing in, of all things, the passage on supernatural strength. Page 285-6 in RUE. In a nutshell, it says their physiology is totally different than human. That, among other reasons, is why I think the term 'bio-regeneration' has different meanings when used for some creatures/beings versus humans. All uses of the word 'regeneration' are not equal, and should not be taken literally.

In another example that I think is useful for comparisons, the Spirit Warrior OCC has a class ability (not activated, no PPE/ISP cost, no set HP/MDC recovery rate listed) that mentions regrowing organs and limbs.

It should be noted that the Spirit Warrior is walking a fine line between being an MDC creature (it can be given supernatural PE and STR if you make certain OCC choices) and a human. As the name implies, it's essentially a spirit-human hybrid.

Even so, organ recovery takes 1d6 days, while limb regeneration takes 3d4 days. The description says you're basically bedridden until the healing is complete.

This is unlike a true MDC creature, demon, whatever, some of whom can regenerate right in front of you, in seconds or minutes.

[eliakon]

I would also point out that many demons and such have bio-regneration.
But that the ability to regrow eyes/limbs is a separate ability that is called out when it exists.
This is for example the canonical reason that broadkill can get cybernetics...

There's a reference to supernatural creature healing in, of all things, the passage on supernatural strength. Page 285-6 in RUE. In a nutshell, it says their physiology is totally different than human. That, among other reasons, is why I think the term 'bio-regeneration' has different meanings when used for some creatures/beings versus humans. All uses of the word 'regeneration' are not equal, and should not be taken literally.

In another example that I think is useful for comparisons, the Spirit Warrior OCC has a class ability (not activated, no PPE/ISP cost, no set HP/MDC recovery rate listed) that mentions regrowing organs and limbs.

It should be noted that the Spirit Warrior is walking a fine line between being an MDC creature (it can be given supernatural PE and STR if you make certain OCC choices) and a human. As the name implies, it's essentially a spirit-human hybrid.

Even so, organ recovery takes 1d6 days, while limb regeneration takes 3d4 days. The description says you're basically bedridden until the healing is complete.

This is unlike a true MDC creature, demon, whatever, some of whom can regenerate right in front of you, in seconds or minutes.

And they wouldn't need a special ability to do it if simple Bio-Regeneration psionic power did it for you...

For what its worth the earliest versions of the power explicitly stated "but does not restore missing limbs"

[drewkitty ~..~]

Can said psi power regen limbs and organs...?

The creator of FireFly was once asked about what the speeds each of the ships in the FF vers can get to. He replied that what determines the ship's speeds was the pace of the story.

Some have said that if the power does not specifically say they can...then they can't.
Some say that if their is not a limitation that says they can't, then they can.

In ways I agree with both these statements. What you need to determine is what does the pace /path of your story want/need.

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

Some have said that if the power does not specifically say they can...then they can't.
Some say that if their is not a limitation that says they can't, then they can.

In ways I agree with both these statements. What you need to determine is what does the pace /path of your story want/need.

On one hand, the rules don't really matter much; they're 'suggestions' more than hard lines that we can't cross.

But on the other hand, there should be some logical foundations to house rules.

Using the Spirit Warrior for a guideline, I would maybe allow the Super Bio-Regen psionic power to regrow limbs, but with some big caveats.

First: if you lose a limb in combat, depending on what kind of damage destroyed the limb, you might not be in any position, mentally and physically, to concentrate enough to psionically heal yourself at that moment. You might need somebody else to help you, stabilize you, stop the bleeding, give you painkillers, or apply some other immediate aid. For example, if you get hit (unprotected) with plasma or ion damage, that's quite a bit different than laser or shrapnel damage.

This is another big difference between humans with self-healing abilities, and MDC creatures who rapidly regenerate 'naturally' without needing to focus all their mental energies to heal.

After you've been stabilized, then have Super Bio-Regen (cast at least once a day, each day) regrow the limb over the course of, I'd say, a couple of weeks. The limb will be worthless and easily injured in that time, so combat's off the table.

Organ destruction is something that should always require immediate bionic replacement, and/or high-level magic healing. If there's a cauterized laser hole where your liver should be, Super Bio-Regen's not going to fix that, because you won't be conscious even if you're kept alive by other means. By the time you regain consciousness, your missing organ will have already been replaced by something artificial.