Rifts RPG review

[EltonRobb]

I have given the Rifts RPG a review. It's on my blog, if you wish to see it. I basically got my copy of the Rifts hardcover today, and I've been reading the whole thing.

Yes, I glossed over magic and psionics, but I think it was worth it. If you think I should talk about the psionics and magic systems, please either leave a comment or tell me here.

[slade the sniper]

Oh, yeah, definitely talk about magic and psionics, especially in relation to the setting and the role they play in a party.

I am also wondering what you mean by the rules seeming dated? I know that there is some sort of meta-definition for "modern" rules, but I don't really get it. I have been playing for 30+ years and have seen all sorts of rule systems and none of them ever really struck me as "modern" or not.

Finally, although I know Palladium isn't good for a starting game, it was my first RPG and what the only stuff I played for quite a while until I got into MegaTraveller, Shadowrun, etc. Since Palladium was my first RPG I didn't really have a huge issue learning most other rule systems or settings.

-STS

[desrocfc]

I have given the Rifts RPG a review. It's on my blog, if you wish to see it.

<snip>

BLUF (Bottom Line Up-Front): Any experienced GM, or a new GM with a little guidance, can make Rifts a fantastic first RP experience.

The only point I would disagree with is "Rifts is not a good introductory game" section, a bias I find anyone with a D&D first background has when looking at PB, and Rifts in specific.

I started back in AD&D (huzzah for THAC0) and moved to Robotech before finding Rifts. I played AD&D 2e with friends as well as GM'ing our Rifts campaigns.

Recently dipping my foot back into D&D5e and Pathfinder, the game has morphed into a series of complex Feat/Species/Class interactions that are only made more convoluted by allowing multi-class PCs. Everyone loves a good min-max every once in a while, but I found D20 systems now take the cake for making any PC become OP. Players have also "cracked the code" for Feats and classes in order to "maximize" the character; I've actually seen people get pissed off that someone deigned to chose a non-optimal Feat because it fit the Player's character concept, not this optimized net-version. Sure, Rifts allows you to can make a GB and let characters play demi-gods, but at least it's up-front about it LOL.

The other argument used against Rifts is the kitchen sink aspect of the setting and over 70 books that feed into them. This is easily limited by restricting the region and classes that fit to the particular setting (e.g. no Phaseworld, or only humans, or no-MD PCs). I could easily critique d20 systems for always changing editions and giving groups 5+ meta-settings to buy into (e.g. Ravenloft, Dragonlance, Forgotten Realms, Dark Sun, Spelljammer). At least my Rifts Main Book from 1994 and early World Books are still 90% applicable to the game today.

I swear this isn't meant to be a rant, LOL. I just find it odd this is a recurring theme of critique. Ask any new DM in D&D5e/Pathfinder2e/d20 clone and see if they aren't wracking their brains trying to learn a new system as much as a new Rifts GM would.

[Sambot]

I have no idea what "dated" in this context means.

I don't know why Rifts wouldn't be a good starting RPG. It's a little more complex than Robotech but you don't have to include everything the first game. And I've never figured out D&D . I've tried but it just gives me a headache.

As for the number of books, I'm pretty sure far more were made for D&D than have been made for Rifts. And like desrocfc said, I can use all of them today but you don't have to use them all at the same time. If I want I can even use both editions of Rifts at the same time. I know you can't do that with the different editions of D&D.

[slade the sniper]

I second everything Sambot and desrocfc said.

I appreciate the fact that old Rifts books are still just as useful now as they were when they were printed. The no new editions of Palladium rules is a feature IMO.

-STS

[Aermas]

Rifts might seem "dated" to you because it was made long before the new wave of hobbists that came in following youtubers, so it doesn't follow a lot of new paradigms & mechanics like metacurrencies. This is one of its biggest strengths. No new editions, everything is viable, the system is robust. It has a lot of quality material but none of it is "required" like GURPS, or other games where the core is barebones & the supplements are drastically needed to play a well rounded game. You don't need the Africa or England or really most of the World Books in general if you play in North America, & vice versa

[Killer Cyborg]

Oh, yeah, definitely talk about magic and psionics, especially in relation to the setting and the role they play in a party.

I am also wondering what you mean by the rules seeming dated?

I can't speak for the reviewer, but to ME, Palladium's rules seem dated because older games tended to make up rules individually and shove them together into a System, as opposed to newer, post-D20-System games where the standard tends to be more about crafting a single system with core mechanics, and making rules that flow from that system.
With the D20 system, for example, pretty much any time you wanted your character to do ANYTHING, you roll that D20, find the appropriate bonus, and try to beat a target number (either a set number determined by the DM, or a number created by an opponent rolling a D20, and adding their appropriate bonus).
If you want to attack somebody physically, that's what happens.
If you want to attack somebody psychically, that's what happens.
If you want to detect an ambush, that's what happens.
If you want to spot a hidden person, that's what happens.
If you want to charm/impress another character, that's what happens.
If you want to Intimidate somebody, that's what happens.
If you need to make a savings throw, that's what happens.

As opposed to older D&D, where you roll percentile dice for somethings, D20 for other things, and 3d6 for OTHER things.

And as opposed to Palladium, where:
If you want to attack somebody physically, that's what happens.
If you want to attack somebody psychically, you don't roll an attack at all; the target rolls a D20 to beat a static target number (unless it's a physical psychic attack, then see above).
If you want to use the Detect Ambush skill, you roll percentile dice, trying to roll under a target number.
If you want to spot a hidden person, you roll a D20, and check a table of static numbers to determine your success level, and how exactly this interacts with the hidden person making a successful Prowl skill is up to the GM afaik.
If you want to charm/impress another person, you have to have Physical Beauty of 16 or higher (average and somewhat above-average looking people cannot charm/impress anybody), and... well, I forget what happens next, and if it's ever officially clarified. IIRC, some people play it where the person trying to Charm/Impress roll percentile dice trying to roll under the listed percentage, and other people play where the person defending against the Charm/Impress have to roll percentile dice OVER the listed percentage.
Like many of Palladium's rules, it's never really made clear, even though it's a common mechanic that could take place multiple times per adventure.
And if you want Intimidate somebody, or make you do basically the same thing using Charisma instead of PB.
OR if your character has an Awe Factor or Horror Factor, the target has to roll D20 to beat a target number.
It's unclear if/how Horror/Awe factors interact with attempts to Charm/Impress or Trust/Intimidate; the rules don't address that kind of interaction.
If you need to make a savings throw, you roll D20 plus bonuses to beat a static number.

Newer systems tend to have one or two core mechanics, and try to figure out how anything/everything a character might want to do could fit into those mechanics.
Older systems just made up whatever rule made sense to them using whatever dice the writers thought might make sense at the time.
Older systems are clunkier, and less intuitive in this way.

Newer systems also tend to pay more attention to how rules interact with each other, whereas Palladium has a long history of just making changes without any consideration for rule interaction. They increased--without announcing it officially--the core number of combat attacks per melee a character has, for example, without any consideration for how this would affect balance for characters like Juicers who went from being 2x faster than the average character to being 1.5x faster, characters with preset numbers of attacks like animals who went from being on equal terms with a human, or slightly behind, to being half as fast or 1/4 fast as an average human.
They added a rule about mages not having being able to use certain kinds of armor, but never really did much to give mages any kinds of mega-damage armor that COULD be used easily. Years after the change, we got "Ley Line Walker Armor" in RUE, but only LLWs got a note saying that they started with that armor. Until RUE, makes were stuck being unable to cast spells effectively* in their starting armor, and until they got a Millenium Leaf or something from England, or--and this is one of the most common issue with Palladium seeming dated--GMs just made up whatever the heck they wanted with zero standardization, so every group was basically playing by different rules and standards.
In newer systems game-makers/writers take into account how each rule affect the rest of the printed material, at least to a very high degree, which streamlines and standardizes the gaming experience.

In older systems, stuff was poorly explained, barely supported if anybody had questions, the rules weren't integrated very well or at all, and players/GMs were expected to do much more of the work of actually making the game function, as opposed to newer systems where the rules are expected to do most of the work for us, and we can concentrate on role-playing more than on building and remembering entire chunks of the rule system itself, and how different parts of the system interact.

I don't know how the original poster meant the term "dated" here, but I suspect it's something along those lines.

[Grazzik]

Oh, yeah, definitely talk about magic and psionics, especially in relation to the setting and the role they play in a party.

I am also wondering what you mean by the rules seeming dated?

I can't speak for the reviewer, but to ME, Palladium's rules seem dated because older games tended to make up rules individually and shove them together into a System, as opposed to newer, post-D20-System games where the standard tends to be more about crafting a single system with core mechanics, and making rules that flow from that system.
With the D20 system, for example, pretty much any time you wanted your character to do ANYTHING, you roll that D20, find the appropriate bonus, and try to beat a target number (either a set number determined by the DM, or a number created by an opponent rolling a D20, and adding their appropriate bonus).

Yeah, I'd make the same distinction.

I've said in the past that Rifts isn't a starter TTRPG and I guess I'd blame it on the plethora of mechanics (and the occasional mechanic conflict) which is the hurdle to overcome. CK, you described the differences well, particularly the sense that the rules in PB games just seem to be bolted on as they arise, consequences be damned. If one doesn't want to stop play to reference a book every 5 minutes, a really experienced Rifts GM with deep canonical knowledge is needed to guide new players. That said, with experience, once it's all been figured out and the rough edges smoothed over with some house rules, gameplay can be run quite seamlessly... until you join a new play group with different house rules.

However, it's the diversity in mechanics that I think actually keeps Rifts interesting, aside from story and setting. I love the fact that we get to roll different types of dice for different reasons and the tactile aspect of different dice. Rolling 4d4 FEELS and SOUNDS different from 1d20. There's even a difference between rolling a d100 die and two d10 dice for percentiles. If it were all the same mechanic and relied on the same type of die for everything, I think Rifts would lose something... almost become bland. Like the setting is just a backdrop that could be replaced on a whim, which diminishes the world of Rifts Earth and the broader megaverse.

Because there are different rules for combat vs psionics vs perception vs etc., you notice when an element isn't there. Like no magic in Dead Reign despite PPE being an element of the game - my mental muscle memory expects the mechanics that allow my PC to use the PPE to be psychic or cast a spell, but nope! Not allowed! Since save rolls vs Psionics or vs Magic are missing - it forces players to think about other solutions if an NPC is using a special ability of a quasi-supernatural nature. As such, Dead Reign can feel restrictive or claustrophobic to play for Rifts players, despite the fact that most of the game is interchangeable with other PB games. But I'd argue that that is the very essence of Dead Reign's flavor anyway - a claustrophobic survival game - so it is appropriate. If PB games used the same core mechanic for all functions like in D20, the adding or removing of key elements wouldn't be so noticeable.

I guess it all comes down to what you want to get out of the game.

[Killer Cyborg]

Oh, yeah, definitely talk about magic and psionics, especially in relation to the setting and the role they play in a party.

I am also wondering what you mean by the rules seeming dated?

I can't speak for the reviewer, but to ME, Palladium's rules seem dated because older games tended to make up rules individually and shove them together into a System, as opposed to newer, post-D20-System games where the standard tends to be more about crafting a single system with core mechanics, and making rules that flow from that system.
With the D20 system, for example, pretty much any time you wanted your character to do ANYTHING, you roll that D20, find the appropriate bonus, and try to beat a target number (either a set number determined by the DM, or a number created by an opponent rolling a D20, and adding their appropriate bonus).

Yeah, I'd make the same distinction.

I've said in the past that Rifts isn't a starter TTRPG and I guess I'd blame it on the plethora of mechanics (and the occasional mechanic conflict) which is the hurdle to overcome. CK, you described the differences well, particularly the sense that the rules in PB games just seem to be bolted on as they arise, consequences be damned. If one doesn't want to stop play to reference a book every 5 minutes, a really experienced Rifts GM with deep canonical knowledge is needed to guide new players. That said, with experience, once it's all been figured out and the rough edges smoothed over with some house rules, gameplay can be run quite seamlessly... until you join a new play group with different house rules.

However, it's the diversity in mechanics that I think actually keeps Rifts interesting, aside from story and setting. I love the fact that we get to roll different types of dice for different reasons and the tactile aspect of different dice. Rolling 4d4 FEELS and SOUNDS different from 1d20. There's even a difference between rolling a d100 die and two d10 dice for percentiles. If it were all the same mechanic and relied on the same type of die for everything, I think Rifts would lose something... almost become bland. Like the setting is just a backdrop that could be replaced on a whim, which diminishes the world of Rifts Earth and the broader megaverse.

Because there are different rules for combat vs psionics vs perception vs etc., you notice when an element isn't there. Like no magic in Dead Reign despite PPE being an element of the game - my mental muscle memory expects the mechanics that allow my PC to use the PPE to be psychic or cast a spell, but nope! Not allowed! Since save rolls vs Psionics or vs Magic are missing - it forces players to think about other solutions if an NPC is using a special ability of a quasi-supernatural nature. As such, Dead Reign can feel restrictive or claustrophobic to play for Rifts players, despite the fact that most of the game is interchangeable with other PB games. But I'd argue that that is the very essence of Dead Reign's flavor anyway - a claustrophobic survival game - so it is appropriate. If PB games used the same core mechanic for all functions like in D20, the adding or removing of key elements wouldn't be so noticeable.

I guess it all comes down to what you want to get out of the game.

I agree that there are sometimes benefits in diversity of mechanics.