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Greetings,

I have some questions regarding the Wizard Supreme option for immortals:

1. Does it allow the being to learn spells at any time like a regular Wizard? Or are they limited to the spells the Wizard Supreme option grants?
2. Does it grant the regular Wizard abilities (i.e. Astral Projection, Familiar Link, Sense Enchantment, Sense Supernatural Evil, Sense Magic, Special Skills of Magical Lore and Knowledge, and Magic Combat & Bonuses)?
3. If the previous answer is NO, when does the Wizard Supreme gain spell strength bonuses?

I am thinking that the answer is any time to the first, no to the second, and levels 4/8/12 for the third but would like confirmation on these matters.

Thanks,

The thing is.... the doesn't say yes or no for your questions. So the GM of the game gets to decide which way she or he wants to go.

Remember much of the HU books are written to give people options and to give examples of variations. This leaves 'gaps' which the player or gm to fill in to make a hull rounded character.

So if you already have a GM, it would be best to talk things through with your GM to develop the char.

However, when I make a Immortal char that has the WS power set I make it as a Mystic Study. With all the bells and whistles and penalties that come along with the mystic study.
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So after me filling in the missing bits would be: 1: yes they are able to be taught spells and to reasurch spells (NB:TtGD & PF2:MoM1) like all mages/practioners of the mystic sciences. [the definition of the term 'mystic sciences' is found near the front of the PF2: MoM1 book.)

2: I am going to presume that you mean the HU mage template, the 'Mystic Study'. Yes, replace one skill program with the skill program found in the Magic:MS power cat., along with the power cat. abilities and bonuses.

3: the WS has the normal Mystic Study spell str. progression.
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Note that some others will fill in the missing information their own way.
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Another options would be to use the wizard occ (PF2 core book) [or if you have to...some magic OCC from rifts] as the basis of the char's learned spell casting abilities to go along with the listed number of spells And PPE levels of the WS powers selection.

Thanks for your ideas.

Some people would play it differently than drewkitty~..~ has laid it out using the rationale that as an Immortal you would have learned everything in your vast lifetime and no longer progress. I am mentioning this as an alternate perspective. Personally, as a GM I allow it as drew has laid out, simply because it is more fun for players to not feel limited.

1, No. If the text doesn't grant progression, there is none.

2, No. If they received those abilities, they would be listed.

3, No. See #1.

Immortal wizard is locked, there is no progression, they have what they have. If the authors disagree, let them edit the book.

ITWastrel wrote:1, No. If the text doesn't grant progression, there is none.

2, No. If they received those abilities, they would be listed.

3, No. See #1.

Immortal wizard is locked, there is no progression, they have what they have. If the authors disagree, let them edit the book.

#1, #2 & #3: (Staying within the HU2 game texts): The wizard supriems are wizards as per the text. (It is right there in the name.) The mystic study's are listed as wizards in their text.

If x=w and y=w, then x=y.

Yes I acknowledged that the listings in the Immorals powers list are abbreviated. As such not everything was listed there. But with the Concept/Idea of a Wizard Supreme includes that they have not lost their wizard abilities.

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I'll bring up the 'super abilities & magic' listings, and that they are examples of what a Half-Wizard (PF:MoM1) looks like when translated to HU. And agree that these options don't get any magic level up bonuses, because they are exploring their super abilities. Instead of expanding their magical abilities. They still get they spell str at least at 12 though.

ITWastrel wrote:1, No. If the text doesn't grant progression, there is none.

The text says they get an additional spell per level from Spell levels 1-10. It does not address caster level or any type of progressions, though if the spells themselves give increases in damage and/or range per level, those would apply, as per the books.

If you go just by what is written in the Immortals category, then the Wizard Suprememe is terribly weak. This is an issue Kevin has addressed in the past, saying it is up to the GM to determine how a Wizard progresses in order to make it interesting and fun to play.

lbeaumanior wrote:Greetings,

I have some questions regarding the Wizard Supreme option for immortals:

1. Does it allow the being to learn spells at any time like a regular Wizard? Or are they limited to the spells the Wizard Supreme option grants?
2. Does it grant the regular Wizard abilities (i.e. Astral Projection, Familiar Link, Sense Enchantment, Sense Supernatural Evil, Sense Magic, Special Skills of Magical Lore and Knowledge, and Magic Combat & Bonuses)?
3. If the previous answer is NO, when does the Wizard Supreme gain spell strength bonuses?

I am thinking that the answer is any time to the first, no to the second, and levels 4/8/12 for the third but would like confirmation on these matters.

Thanks,

1. Heroes Unlimited pages 318-319 list the methods available for such a practitioner to gain new spells.

2. No.

3. Heroes Unlimited page 319 shows at what levels spell strength increases at.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

ITWastrel wrote:1, No. If the text doesn't grant progression, there is none.

2, No. If they received those abilities, they would be listed.

3, No. See #1.

Immortal wizard is locked, there is no progression, they have what they have. If the authors disagree, let them edit the book.

#1, #2 & #3: (Staying within the HU2 game texts): The wizard supriems are wizards as per the text. (It is right there in the name.) The mystic study's are listed as wizards in their text.

If x=w and y=w, then x=y.

Yes I acknowledged that the listings in the Immorals powers list are abbreviated. As such not everything was listed there. But with the Concept/Idea of a Wizard Supreme includes that they have not lost their wizard abilities.

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I'll bring up the 'super abilities & magic' listings, and that they are examples of what a Half-Wizard (PF:MoM1) looks like when translated to HU. And agree that these options don't get any magic level up bonuses, because they are exploring their super abilities. Instead of expanding their magical abilities. They still get they spell str at least at 12 though.

Color text =/= Game stats

If the abilities were included, they would be listed. In no other instances have we needed to infer class/OCC abilities. Why should this entry be any different, aside from "because it sucks!"?

Just because it makes sense, is a good idea, or really should be that way, doesn't mean it works that way here.

Stone Gargoyle wrote:

ITWastrel wrote:1, No. If the text doesn't grant progression, there is none.

The text says they get an additional spell per level from Spell levels 1-10. It does not address caster level or any type of progressions, though if the spells themselves give increases in damage and/or range per level, those would apply, as per the books.

If you go just by what is written in the Immortals category, then the Wizard Suprememe is terribly weak. This is an issue Kevin has addressed in the past, saying it is up to the GM to determine how a Wizard progresses in order to make it interesting and fun to play.

Right here.

One spell per level. That sucks, but it's the law.

Being taught magic is a GM call, with my personal leaning toward yes, but only because Wizard is in the title.

ITWastrel wrote:Color text =/= Game stats

There is nothing in the canon test that says to throw away the canon descriptive text.

As such, just stating your opinion is not a valid counter argument to an interpretation based on the actual words of the canon text.
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As I stated before, It is very much up to individual GMs to decide what they will choose to do in a 'fill in the gap' situation. Like was presented in this topic. So a GM, using the canon text I pointed out could choose, alternatly, that the Immortal WS is actually the PF wizard class.

Or they could choose to allow only "only the stated stats in the power cat".

Glistam wrote:

lbeaumanior wrote:Greetings,

I have some questions regarding the Wizard Supreme option for immortals:

1. Does it allow the being to learn spells at any time like a regular Wizard? Or are they limited to the spells the Wizard Supreme option grants?
2. Does it grant the regular Wizard abilities (i.e. Astral Projection, Familiar Link, Sense Enchantment, Sense Supernatural Evil, Sense Magic, Special Skills of Magical Lore and Knowledge, and Magic Combat & Bonuses)?
3. If the previous answer is NO, when does the Wizard Supreme gain spell strength bonuses?

I am thinking that the answer is any time to the first, no to the second, and levels 4/8/12 for the third but would like confirmation on these matters.

Thanks,

1. Heroes Unlimited pages 318-319 list the methods available for such a practitioner to gain new spells.

2. No.

3. Heroes Unlimited page 319 shows at what levels spell strength increases at.

This seems to be the most canon accurate option. Thanks.

Stone Gargoyle wrote:If you go just by what is written in the Immortals category, then the Wizard Supreme is terribly weak.

What do you think is the strongest option for Immortals? Besides being a Godling as an origin, I mean in terms of power categories from the list.

lbeaumanior wrote:

Stone Gargoyle wrote:If you go just by what is written in the Immortals category, then the Wizard Supreme is terribly weak.

What do you think is the strongest option for Immortals? Besides being a Godling as an origin, I mean in terms of power categories from the list.

That discussion would take us off topic and derail the thread. My point was simply that if an immortal wizard is supposed to be "supreme" then the way it is written does not meet the expectation.

Stone Gargoyle wrote:

ITWastrel wrote:1, No. If the text doesn't grant progression, there is none.

The text says they get an additional spell per level from Spell levels 1-10. It does not address caster level or any type of progressions, though if the spells themselves give increases in damage and/or range per level, those would apply, as per the books.

If you go just by what is written in the Immortals category, then the Wizard Suprememe is terribly weak. This is an issue Kevin has addressed in the past, saying it is up to the GM to determine how a Wizard progresses in order to make it interesting and fun to play.

That's how he answers everything.

Stone Gargoyle wrote:

lbeaumanior wrote:

Stone Gargoyle wrote:If you go just by what is written in the Immortals category, then the Wizard Supreme is terribly weak.

What do you think is the strongest option for Immortals? Besides being a Godling as an origin, I mean in terms of power categories from the list.

That discussion would take us off topic and derail the thread. My point was simply that if an immortal wizard is supposed to be "supreme" then the way it is written does not meet the expectation.

I posted the original question and I feel satisfied with the answers, so this follow up question is relevant to my interests.... I can make a different topic, but this one has already engaged you and others, so I ask again, you personal opinion on which of the power options for immortals is stronger mechanically.

Allow the Immortal Wizard to have all of the ley line powers combined with the HU Wizard powers.

Or don't. All depends on what you want to do in your game and what your GM allows.

I see no reason why they can't learn spells like a regular wizard/mystic study.
They should also be able to sense magic like a the Mystic Studier.
As Immortals have lots of skills they can just take the skill that lets them recognize Enchantments, and the other one that lets them recognize monsters.
I wouldn't give them astral projection or the familiar ability as those seem kinda meh to me.
Maybe give them a custom spell if they want a familiar. Maybe let them Conjure an actual spirit like those one alien guys can(in one of the AU books). Or take the RIfter NIghtbane Familiar option. Maybe call it a spell"Bind Familiar).have it take like 10% of their hit points. It can be like a small animal, or like a mini dragon. They can either see threw it's senses while it's within 2 miles, or they can just know what it knows. IF it dies it respawns, resurrects nearby the mage when the mage would heal the hit points that the familiar is using. Those HP heal as normal for the mage. As an immortal thats likely rather fast, but if the mage has HP damage the mages regular HP heals first.

Sir_Spirit wrote:I see no reason why they can't learn spells like a regular wizard/mystic study.
They should also be able to sense magic like a the Mystic Studier.
As Immortals have lots of skills they can just take the skill that lets them recognize Enchantments, and the other one that lets them recognize monsters.
I wouldn't give them astral projection or the familiar ability as those seem kinda meh to me.
Maybe give them a custom spell if they want a familiar. Maybe let them Conjure an actual spirit like those one alien guys can(in one of the AU books). Or take the RIfter NIghtbane Familiar option. Maybe call it a spell"Bind Familiar).have it take like 10% of their hit points. It can be like a small animal, or like a mini dragon. They can either see threw it's senses while it's within 2 miles, or they can just know what it knows. IF it dies it respawns, resurrects nearby the mage when the mage would heal the hit points that the familiar is using. Those HP heal as normal for the mage. As an immortal thats likely rather fast, but if the mage has HP damage the mages regular HP heals first.

I always thought the immortal Wizard Supreme with an age of over 500 years should have all of the Mystic Study, Ley Line Walker, and wizard (from Palladium Fantasy) abilities in addition to being able to have a lot more spells than just the 30 listed. But I also gave reasons why they would have them.

lbeaumanior wrote:

Stone Gargoyle wrote:

lbeaumanior wrote:

Stone Gargoyle wrote:If you go just by what is written in the Immortals category, then the Wizard Supreme is terribly weak.

What do you think is the strongest option for Immortals? Besides being a Godling as an origin, I mean in terms of power categories from the list.

That discussion would take us off topic and derail the thread. My point was simply that if an immortal wizard is supposed to be "supreme" then the way it is written does not meet the expectation.

I posted the original question and I feel satisfied with the answers, so this follow up question is relevant to my interests.... I can make a different topic, but this one has already engaged you and others, so I ask again, you personal opinion on which of the power options for immortals is stronger mechanically.

I guess I just don't have enough experience playing each of the different types of Immortals to answer the question. I think I like the Godling the most of the ones I have played.

Stone Gargoyle wrote:

lbeaumanior wrote:

Stone Gargoyle wrote:

lbeaumanior wrote:

Stone Gargoyle wrote:If you go just by what is written in the Immortals category, then the Wizard Supreme is terribly weak.

What do you think is the strongest option for Immortals? Besides being a Godling as an origin, I mean in terms of power categories from the list.

That discussion would take us off topic and derail the thread. My point was simply that if an immortal wizard is supposed to be "supreme" then the way it is written does not meet the expectation.

I posted the original question and I feel satisfied with the answers, so this follow up question is relevant to my interests.... I can make a different topic, but this one has already engaged you and others, so I ask again, you personal opinion on which of the power options for immortals is stronger mechanically.

I guess I just don't have enough experience playing each of the different types of Immortals to answer the question. I think I like the Godling the most of the ones I have played.

THough, the Avatar does one up in the sense that it heals 1d6 per round, which is useful for a few builds(weapon merger or alter limbs can use up HP in combat and so that offsets the cost.).